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  1. #1
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    Winter driving - who loves it?

    I used to live up in Silverthorne and I really miss driving on snow since I moved to Denver.

    But it was good fun this morning. Who needs to go snowboarding when you can go pavement surfing . There's nothing like a bit of urban rally driving with RWD and good snow tires.

    Anyone else appreciate the beauty of a well-executed, throttle steering power slide?
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  2. #2
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    I do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71
    I used to live up in Silverthorne and I really miss driving on snow since I moved to Denver.

    But it was good fun this morning. Who needs to go snowboarding when you can go pavement surfing . There's nothing like a bit of urban rally driving with RWD and good snow tires.

    Anyone else appreciate the beauty of a well-executed, throttle steering power slide?
    I haven't driven a RWD car on snow since high school but I sure enjoy driving my FWD with snow tires in bad weather. If only all of the CO newbies would take their gargantuan SUV's back to the sunbelt and leave the roads clear for people who know how to drive on snow....

  3. #3
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    I love driving in the snow !!!
    Nick.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by kristian
    I haven't driven a RWD car on snow since high school but I sure enjoy driving my FWD with snow tires in bad weather. If only all of the CO newbies would take their gargantuan SUV's back to the sunbelt and leave the roads clear for people who know how to drive on snow....
    I second that. I can drive in complete control sideways down the street. Front wheel drive is more control than rear and just as much fun.

  5. #5
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    w/ clear roads...

    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    I second that. I can drive in complete control sideways down the street. Front wheel drive is more control than rear and just as much fun.
    however, as with this morning's commute, when they're covered w/ idiots in towncars idling down the street, driving in the snow sucks. How come I couldn't have had my WRX back when I lived in the upper peninsula MI, with snowy roads from Dec-April? Instead I was driving a Ford EXP w/ bad tires, looking for snowbanks to slow my progress...
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    Front wheel drive is more control than rear and just as much fun.
    FWD cars offer more grip off the line (in snow) because they have more weight over the drive wheels. But since FWD cars use the same wheels to turn and accelerate, it's easy to get them to understeer (or push/plow). With RWD, you can't rob grip from the front wheels with the throttle which makes them less prone to understeer. Unfortunately you can't get a FWD car to oversteer (tail out) under throttle. With RWD you have much better control over the yaw angle of the car. So you do have more control with a RWD car, but with a FWD car you have more grip in the snow (just not in a corner).

    Either one can be fun, but personally I prefer the throttle steering you can only get with RWD. Much less chance of a spin with FWD though.
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    ....... covered w/ idiots in towncars idling down the street
    Snow driving in a RWD car with all season tires is a lot like MTBing with slicks
    .... and I wonder why insurance is so high....

    Can you hit up the side streets in the Rex to avoid the towncar syndrome?
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  8. #8
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71
    FWD cars offer more grip off the line (in snow) because they have more weight over the drive wheels. But since FWD cars use the same wheels to turn and accelerate, it's easy to get them to understeer (or push/plow). With RWD, you can't rob grip from the front wheels with the throttle which makes them less prone to understeer. Unfortunately you can't get a FWD car to oversteer (tail out) under throttle. With RWD you have much better control over the yaw angle of the car. So you do have more control with a RWD car, but with a FWD car you have more grip in the snow (just not in a corner).

    Either one can be fun, but personally I prefer the throttle steering you can only get with RWD. Much less chance of a spin with FWD though.

    Ahh, but you can do the controlled emergency brake kick-out.

    And I would challenge any rear wheel drive car with similar attributes and tires to race through snow, including turns. I will win.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    Ahh, but you can do the controlled emergency brake kick-out.

    And I would challenge any rear wheel drive car with similar attributes and tires to race through snow, including turns. I will win.
    Well someone with a RWD car needs to take him up on this....I want to see a snow race!

  10. #10
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    awd

    the beauty of all wheel drive. As dbabuser will say too... there is nothing better than a 4 wheel drift around 5000 rpm in a subaru! Go anywhere you point it completely sideways!! Just gotta get the girlfriend out of the car first. lovin fresh snow

  11. #11
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    Upset Love the snow, hate the drivers

    Drove my wife's Maxima to work this morning...talk about being able to cut the wheels loose That car's got way too much power for the snow. It's way fun though.

    [RANT] Can anyone tell me why people in Colorado need to stop at the bottom of a snowy hill before going up it? Ever heard of momentum?? [/RANT]

    I'm just grouchy cuz I haven't slept well in about a week and a half. For those who didn't know, My wife had our first baby (Hannah Jean) on the 2nd. I'm already looking for little pink bikes with tassles.

    Sleeping's been touch and go ever since

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    Ahh, but you can do the controlled emergency brake kick-out.

    And I would challenge any rear wheel drive car with similar attributes and tires to race through snow, including turns. I will win.
    Yeah, you're right there. I really meant to say, “under acceleration”, rather than under throttle. But I think you know what I mean

    Handling and grip are too different things though. The car with the most grip would win in a race (all else being equal), but the car with the best handling has more control. You said FWD has more control, but I guess you mean it has more grip, no?

    In a race given two equal drivers, I'd put my money on the RWD car every time (if all else is equal). In the real word though, most cars have a front weight bias so the advantage goes to the FWD car in snow. But if you put a rear engine RWD car (which has a rearward weight bias) against a FWD car with a similar front weight bias, it's all over for the FWD car. Under acceleration, a FWD car unloads its drive wheels.

    If you can find a 135HP 2300lb FWD car with a 50/50 weigh balance and some Nokian hakkapeliitta's, then maybe we can race in the George Town lake Autocross for pink slips
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Blue
    the beauty of all wheel drive. As dbabuser will say too... there is nothing better than a 4 wheel drift around 5000 rpm in a subaru! Go anywhere you point it completely sideways!! Just gotta get the girlfriend out of the car first. lovin fresh snow
    There is a vid out of a wrx slamming around a frozen lake at like 80mph. Would love to duplicate that.

  14. #14
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    Damn

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71
    Yeah, you're right there. I really meant to say, ?under acceleration?, rather than under throttle. But I think you know what I mean

    Handling and grip are too different things though. The car with the most grip would win in a race (all else being equal), but the car with the best handling has more control. You said FWD has more control, but I guess you mean it has more grip, no?

    In a race given two equal drivers, I'd put my money on the RWD car every time (if all else is equal). In the real word though, most cars have a front weight bias so the advantage goes to the FWD car in snow. But if you put a rear engine RWD car (which has a rearward weight bias) against a FWD car with a similar front weight bias, it's all over for the FWD car. Under acceleration, a FWD car unloads its drive wheels.

    If you can find a 135HP 2300lb FWD car with a 50/50 weigh balance and some Nokian hakkapeliitta's, then maybe we can race in the George Town lake Autocross for pink slips
    I wish I still had my old VW. That would be an offer I would take. What would be my new car? Maybe I will try to find a VW to buy... you know, kind of a 2 for 1 deal.

  15. #15
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    Anyone else appreciate the beauty of a well-executed, throttle steering power slide?[/QUOTE]
    Oh man, I own a trooper. When it's not in 4wd, it's RWD and kinda light in the back. I start my turns 1/2 a block before the actual turn, good times. It's kinda like that new "sport" all those crazy young asian kids are doing, drifting. Good times. My girlfriend hates it.
    When I was young, I used to go to empty parking lots before they plowed.
    Good times.

    What's nice is, because of all this, when/if I do actualy slide for real, I dont over-correct or panic.
    Ride on, rider. Ride on.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    I wish I still had my old VW. That would be an offer I would take. What would be my new car? Maybe I will try to find a VW to buy... you know, kind of a 2 for 1 deal.
    Them's racing words mate! I'm pretty sure your VW didn't have a 50/50 weight balance though. Maybe you could get an old 70’s civic and put a few hundred pounds in the trunk. You might also have to put on a few import tuner stickers (to bump the HP up to 135 )

    BTW I guess your new car would be your bicycle, since you'd loose the old one .
    Last edited by Steve71; 01-12-2005 at 01:41 PM.
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by titusguy
    What's nice is, because of all this, when/if I do actualy slide for real, I dont over-correct or panic.
    Yeah, that's what I tell the wife too....
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  18. #18
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    heh fwd n rwd? AWD owns the snow. Im sideways around every corner. just give a little tap to the throttle. bridgestone RE92's at half tread arent th optimum snow tires tho. my car is way tailhappy anyway, stiff ass rear springs

  19. #19
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    RE 92's

    Friends don't let friends drive on RE 92's. Get a set of winter tires on your Subaru and you will be amazed! The difference is amaziing. I own a WRX and can stomp on the gas and barely slip the tires, brakes just as well too! Well worth the money

  20. #20
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    That's what I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Blue
    Friends don't let friends drive on RE 92's. Get a set of winter tires on your Subaru and you will be amazed! The difference is amaziing. I own a WRX and can stomp on the gas and barely slip the tires, brakes just as well too! Well worth the money
    snow tires for the stock rims, and some summer rims and tires. If I could ever sell my truck...
    But at least I don't have stock tires anymore. I don't love the michy's on there now, but after all the hate I've heard given to the re92's...
    What are you running fo winter treads?
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  21. #21
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    I know it's kind of off the subject, but I love the feeling of sliding the rear of my Burner almost to the point of catching my front while my front is plowing straight down the hill... Oh, wait... you guys don't ride in the snow, only drive? . Hold on, am I in a car thread???

    As you were, carry on...

  22. #22
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    You been to the georgetown races? you may be surprised at what types show up and who wins. Knew some people that'd go up seemingly every weekend. They convinced me to go one time. Winner? an old 80-something AMC Eagle.

    Smoked newer cars and older cars alike. 4wd and AWD. which made me realize its in the driver.

  23. #23
    all hail der Fuhrer Bush
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    miss my saabs

    not the later yuppie lawyer saabs. I usedta had a '66 3-banger 2 cycle 3 on the tree. then a 68 v4 4on the tree. back when fwd was a rare thing, this was in the early 70s. did some winter rallying in the snow back east, and a few hillclimbs. funny thing about the snow: with another person in the car I could rip thru snowpacked corners that I could no way make alone. and with 4 people in the car forgetaboutit I wouldn't even have to let off the gas, just point the front wheels where I wanted to end up and go for it, it was incredible. boy I miss driving like that. one time we drove cross country on campus and ended up driving down like a hundred steps at the library, they had a po-lice investigation of the tire tracks in the snow and it made the front page of the school newspaper, which was sorta funny as I was the editor and so ran the pix of the tire tracks really big. few other saabs around but I think I had the only one with pirellis, I checked every time I saw another saab after that for awhile. but the po-lice never solved the caper. good times. loved my saabs, 'specially the v4
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  24. #24
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    dont really have that kinda scratch for some snow tires now... 16" snow tires aint cheap. I cant go back to 14" steelies because I put WRX brakes and wheels on my legacy, 14's and most 15's wont fit over the 11.4"ers.
    Im gonna make these RE92's last this winter and the summer(theyre at like 60%), then I'll get some snows to put on my WRX's and get some 2.5RS's with azenis

  25. #25
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    SUV idiots off the road

    living up here in sumitt county i see more suv of the road then anything else.. on trip to vail last week there were three..slow down and learn to drive is the key up here...

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Rider
    dont really have that kinda scratch for some snow tires now... 16" snow tires aint cheap. I cant go back to 14" steelies because I put WRX brakes and wheels on my legacy, 14's and most 15's wont fit over the 11.4"ers.
    Im gonna make these RE92's last this winter and the summer(theyre at like 60%), then I'll get some snows to put on my WRX's and get some 2.5RS's with azenis
    I bought a set of Winter Force tires for my Toyota pickup. Pretty cheap for the performance - 95 percent as good as the Nokian hakkapeliitta at 1/2 the cost. But I guess in your case, a lot of the cost is going to be buying new wheels (do they even make 15" steel wheels?).

    http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ireModel=M%2BS

    Gotta love those Falken Azenis though I put some on the wife's Miata Brutal grip (too much for the street maybe), stiff as hell sidewalls. They're a bit of a razors edge though. Cool thing about them is they don't squeal much at all, so you can drive like an idiot with out attracting attention.
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  27. #27
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    you guys want grip, studded snows are the way to go. I can't run them down here as we don't get nearly enough snow to justify, and I run the highway daily. If I lived in summit, I would buy an extra set of wheels and stud them up.

    I also miss my older saabs, but they were '86 and '87 900 Turbos. That is when they came with the steel wheels w/ studded gislavid rubber.

  28. #28
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    bring on the CO transplants

    Its always the other drivers (and stationary objects) you need to watch out for when rallying around in my ol beater 4wd truck. although, ...

    I am reminded of a line from the film 'Fried Green Tomatoes' when some girls steal the parking spot from the main character (forgot name). Anyway, the girls pull into 'her' spot, she gets fed up, and pummels their nice little convertable with her 70's station wagon. And then says "face it girls, I am older and have better insurance'

    I dare ya to hit my car

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kristian
    If only all of the CO newbies would take their gargantuan SUV's back to the sunbelt and leave the roads clear for people who know how to drive on snow....
    Here here. ...But it sure is nice sometimes to have the 4runner to fall back on. Aboniable as it sounds, it can go places my Jetta never could.

    My old-as-hell, RWD (LS, of course, with perfect weight distribution) Bimmer is still the best in the snow. Nothing - OK, maybe a classic 2002, or a CSi - drifts like it.
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  30. #30
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    Saabs are fantastic in the snow. I have a 1991 9000T and a 1996 Super CS 9000 (almost yuppie lawyer Saabs) and they just rail. The '91 had studded snows up until last year (wore them out) and you should have seen the look on peoples faces as the 3rd gear turbo spooled up passing people in their SUVs going up Loveland Pass. Unbelievable traction and stopping power with that setup. The '96 has Michelin Pilot M&S and is equally fun to drive up to Cameron Pass to go backcountry boarding.

    Ahhh...the beauty of of an Inline4 and GarrettT15 turbocharger...

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  31. #31
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    Just picked myself up a winter beater...

    Oh how I love to drive in the snow! Well, oh how I love to drive, period, but especially in the snow.

    I picked this little guy up today for winter driving. Well, that and so I have two cars for doing multi-day jobs on my car *coughmorepowermotorswapcough*. How can you beat a car that costs less than what I sold my last frame for. Well, that and 2 hours labor for a tranny swap.

    Beater.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitchenware
    Oh how I love to drive in the snow! Well, oh how I love to drive, period, but especially in the snow.

    I picked this little guy up today for winter driving. Well, that and so I have two cars for doing multi-day jobs on my car *coughmorepowermotorswapcough*. How can you beat a car that costs less than what I sold my last frame for. Well, that and 2 hours labor for a tranny swap.

    Beater.
    Jim that little thing is pimp! haha. How much did it cost ya? That'd be so sweet to turn into a beater little rally car.
    Tony
    is making a comeback.

    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

  33. #33
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    you should try it with pilot sport mxx3's!!!, the traction control goes nuts
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiveBomber
    you should try it with pilot sport mxx3's!!!, the traction control goes nuts
    I enjoy my ghetto 84 2dr S10 Blazer. Stick that thing in 2wheel drive and tap the gas going through a turn and you're easily going into 4wheel slides although I'm still a rookie at the snow driving thing so I'm 'supposed' to keep it in 4wheel drive of course thats what i tell my mom.
    Tony
    is making a comeback.

    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by COmtbiker12
    Jim that little thing is pimp! haha. How much did it cost ya? That'd be so sweet to turn into a beater little rally car.
    350 and it wont be called a beater for nothing.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitchenware
    350 and it wont be called a beater for nothing.
    Lucky! ::drool::

    Is it in pretty good shape other than having to do a tranny swap?
    Tony
    is making a comeback.

    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

  37. #37
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    Goodyear

    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    snow tires for the stock rims, and some summer rims and tires. If I could ever sell my truck...
    But at least I don't have stock tires anymore. I don't love the michy's on there now, but after all the hate I've heard given to the re92's...
    What are you running fo winter treads?

    It is really nice having two sets of rims and tires. I have Goodyears on both (used to work there) and Ultra Grip Ice on for the winter. It's a cool feeling to accelerate that hard in the winter. Go for it!

  38. #38
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    The usual suspect

    I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread 'cause I'm sure yer all sick of my incessant Subaru rambling but....

    My lifted 88 Gl Wagon is completely unstoppable in the snow. It's not even fun till there's at least a foot of the stuff. Bringing the rear end out is a real tough, due to the excessive traction and low COG.

    Old Ru's have the P-brake on the front wheels, so I can't git er sideways that way, unless I'm going backwards. And that trick doesn't work on a true 4wd vehicle anyway (locking up either end locks the whole driveline)

    I'm in the process of putting a LS diff in the back, hopefully that'll give me enough go-on-demand to actually break it loose.

    A good snow on the pass is the only time I've got the fastest ride on I-70, which is great considering most of the cars/trucks I'm blowing away cost 10 to 20 times more than mine.

  39. #39
    I pigskin I never Nerf it
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    Man, I love driving in the snow. There is nothing better than 3 inches of fresh at 2am when nobody is on the road and doing 75-85 on a nice straight section looking in the rearview at the rooster tail. I can tell you that with the Prelude (99, Autostick) and a set of new Blizzak WS-50 I'm not scared of anything. I've passed SUV's in turns/underbraking, and in second gear once the tires hooked up and laughed at those suckers. I've driven in 8inches of fresh and seen police cars fishtailing, SUV's in ditches, and trucks on their sides. I've never been in an accident either.

    I love pulling the e-brake while under power and sweeping the rear around in rally fashion counter steering though the entire way through the turn. Being able to stop with the snow tires faster and in more control than the soccer mom's in the SUV's is great too. I never drive NEXT to another car in the snow, I always find a spot to pass, and that free's up the road for myself, so if there is a surprize, I can avoid the trouble and be safe. Quick, but safe.

    The only downfall, is when the fresh falls during the morning or afternoon commute. Then it's city streets and side roads, not the freeways because that is a reciepe for disaster.
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