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  1. #1
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    WARNING to Bobcat Poachers!

    To the three riders who chose to Poach the D.R. Trail at Bobcat Ridge today. Keep up that type of activity and you run the risk of ruining it for everyone. Riding on closed or prohibited trails may ultimately get the whole place shut down to mountain bikes. Remember riding on Fort Collins Natural Areas is a privlage, not a right! Please respect posted signs and notices.

    Thanks

    FCNA Rangers.
    Last edited by fcna; 03-08-2008 at 08:19 PM.

  2. #2
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    Did you get a look at these guys or what they were riding? This is way too nice of a trail to lose access. I was just out there today and it's not like they could've missed the closure barricade.

  3. #3
    holding back the darkness
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    prepare for soapbox!

    Bad deal kids.....
    Bobcat is really a prime example of trail resource/user group compromise. Finally a trail that separates users and gives mtn bikers the better of the trails! DR isn't anything compared to Ginny from a bike standpoint. Let the horses have it.
    Since it was their first post it seems that these three have p1ssed the FCNA off enough to go through the trouble of creating a user account just to post their warning. Hopefully we can police ourselves effectively enough that FCNA won't have to. Everybody seems to get along pretty well right now... Even the cow-people with their giant hooved locusts smile and speak cordially in this area. Be a shame if a couple punks got the wrong horseborne city commisioner all riled up while riding the forbidden fruit. Be a big problem for us all.
    Right now the trail access issue in Larimer county is practically a non-issue. We asked for Blue Sky and it happened. We have almost free-reign of horsetooth, lory and DBB- we were even given back sections of closed trail based largely on user feedback. Bobcat and Ginny were funded and built. Nobody bothers us up in the buckhorn, poudre and big thompson canyons. We have what people in the Metro area have been crying and fighting over for years: a hands-off harmony (for the most part) of managers and diverse users. This is due largely to a dedicated group of volunteers who donate trail time and public meeting time and personal time to us, the mountain bike user group, and is predicated on polite user behavior keeping everyone happy. Gotta yield right of way. Not a bad idea to smile and exchange some how-you-doings with the hikers and equestrians. Gotta be nice just like we were taught in kindergarten. Gotta stay off the trails designated "no bikes".... which for right now are very few and far between.
    We start acting like jerks and we will notice a response. It sucks that the first post from the collective Fort Collins Natural Areas people is a shotgun reprimand versus a kudos for disciplined trail use or an invite to a user meeting.
    The FCNA people found their way to mtbr, so maybe they ride too... But even if they don't I hope we see more of them on this forum. Hopefully we can work together in the future and this forum be used as an open line of communication for feedback and constructive input.
    **** censorship

  4. #4
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    Well Said!!!

    Hope you folks at the FCNA understand that just like any poplulation or group, we get a couple of jack@sses that like to make the rest of us look bad.

  5. #5
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    fcna - Thanks for the information and I hope that the you know that most of us are listening and following the rules! We appreciate your efforts in helping the rest of us have wonderful areas for the community to enjoy. Anything the rest of us can help with, please don't hesitate to post!

    subliminalshiver - Excellent post. You stay up on that soapbox... I'll see if I can hunt around for a megaphone!

  6. #6
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    First off, those poachers are clowns. However, they are stupid, selfish also and probably not reading mtbr. If so, nice job a-holes.
    Please realize, that this is a small portion of bikers, just like the horse tracks I saw on Ginny trail yesterday, people who think it's ok to litter, hikers who walk around muddy spots and widen the trail or rangers who can't spell privilege (we kid because we love). Unfortunately, if there is a trail, it will be poached, either by hikers, bikers or equestrians.
    But I appreciate the vigilance and diligence of the rangers. It would suck for it to turn out like Boulder.
    Tequila tonight, tomorrow we ride!

  7. #7
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    fcna, thanks for posting, hopefully posts like this and pressure from other riders will make people think a bit more about what they're doing. As I've mentioned to a couple of you already, feel free to contact me
    when you see user issues arise and I will try to spread the word to the cycling community (though posting here yourself is perhaps the most effective tool anyway).

    We are very lucky to have this trail, don't screw it up people. There's been a strong trend of new trail development in the last few years, we need to take advantage of that by continuing to develop good relationships with those who manage and maintain the trails.

    Joining Subliminal on the soapbox here...Seems like a good thread to bring up the log rides on Ginny. While I certainly enjoyed riding a few of them (no, I didn't put them there) it has become obvious that the city and/or rangers don't want them there. They were removed and chainsawed apart, so that should be a hint of how they feel about logs being placed like that.
    I simply want to stress how much of a HUGE mistake it would be right now for riders to get into a back and forth battle with the rangers by re-placing logs after they've been removed. No good will come of it, they'll get removed again and our relationship with the rangers will suffer. It would be really stupid to screw up our access to this trail for something that's going to get removed anyway.

    We have to look at the big picture here. While we'd all love to have a trail where we could do stuff like that, we've got to pick our battles wisely. Our best chance of someday getting permission to build a more freeride oriented trail is to develop a strong relationship with the rangers and city/county parks management. Being responsible and playing by the rules is the best way to do that right now. Some if not all of the rangers out there ride, so they could be a huge asset to us in developing a good working relationship with park management.

    Larry
    Mountain High Cyclery
    larry@mtnhighcyclery.com
    "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity". - Dave Barry

  8. #8
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    Thank you everyone for you posts. We can accomplish so much more with a cooperative effort rather than assuming adversarial roles.

    [QUOTE][just like the horse tracks I saw on Ginny trail yesterday]

    Equestrians can access the Ginny Trail up in Mahoney Park from the Powerline Trail to the pinch point in the boulders. One of the Rangers saw tracks in that section the other day.

  9. #9
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    fcna,
    I'd guess that if you post up a notice on here for trailwork days that you'd get a good volunteer response from this forum. I think you'll find there's plenty of us that care enough about these trails to make up for the occasional morons.

  10. #10
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    I just wonder how we could do a better job of informing youngsters, newbies, and the ignorant.

    I have often thought that perhaps when Bike shops sell a bike to an obvious rookie or even a seasoned veteran it could be a good idea to actually hand them a small write up on basic Mtn Bike ethics.
    Simple stuff like
    1. Yield to uphill traffic.
    2. yield to horse and hikers.
    3. obey trail signs
    4. If a trails muddy don't ride it.
    5. if you must ride it stay in the center as to not widen the trail
    6. Be kind and respectful of other trail users
    7. Pack it in pack it out.
    8. Try not to startle wildlife.
    9. ETC ETC ETC.



    Just an Idea.

  11. #11
    Almost Human
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    I don't get you guys at all.
    15 years ago everyone talked about what type of cross training we were doing that winter. Riding on trails with mud OR snow was not good bull. Riding on snow is just as bad as mud IMHO.

    I'm all for giving Rangers the right to write tickets and assess fines for not following trail rules/ethics. Maybe a $50 ticket would do the trick? because the honor system seems to be broken.

    Flame away.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail
    I don't get you guys at all.
    15 years ago everyone talked about what type of cross training we were doing that winter. Riding on trails with mud OR snow was not good bull. Riding on snow is just as bad as mud IMHO.

    I'm all for giving Rangers the right to write tickets and assess fines for not following trail rules/ethics. Maybe a $50 ticket would do the trick? because the honor system seems to be broken.

    Flame away.
    Ummm.. Not sure what you're getting at. Ginny was pretty much bone dry this weekend.. has been for most weekends since early Feb.

  13. #13
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    Easy now UT.... no one said anything about anyone riding these particular trails while muddy.... although the valley loop at bobcat was recently temporarily closed due to muddy conditions. But snow? C'mon, hard-frozen snow is just good fun.
    **** censorship

  14. #14
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    Speaking in general trail terms, what with Pueblo a few weeks ago being an issue, and Palmer and Ute looking pretty bad over the past several years... Just seems to be a growing problem along the front range in the winter months.

    Plants suffocate underneath packed snow/ice. So when you pack a trail and it takes longer to melt than what the native vegetation is used to, you start loosing that vegetation along the edges of the trail and it will widen over time.

    Also, compacted soil becomes loose and friable under ice and the freeze/thaw cycles like we see here on the front range. Up higher I don't see an issue because the snow never melts. Like I said it's just my opinion.

  15. #15
    Mojo0115
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail
    Speaking in general trail terms, what with Pueblo a few weeks ago being an issue, and Palmer and Ute looking pretty bad over the past several years... Just seems to be a growing problem along the front range in the winter months.

    Plants suffocate underneath packed snow/ice. So when you pack a trail and it takes longer to melt than what the native vegetation is used to, you start loosing that vegetation along the edges of the trail and it will widen over time.

    Also, compacted soil becomes loose and friable under ice and the freeze/thaw cycles like we see here on the front range. Up higher I don't see an issue because the snow never melts. Like I said it's just my opinion.
    which is why we have the desert!
    IMG_2264.JPG

    IMG_2270.JPG

  16. #16
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    fcna why didn't you ticket these fools or at least throw down in some fisticuffs?

  17. #17
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    Damn zzsean. Those pics make me really miss the desert. I need a vacation bad.

  18. #18
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    second that.
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  19. #19
    Mojo0115
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIMBERRR
    Damn zzsean. Those pics make me really miss the desert. I need a vacation bad.
    'tis the season for it.

    Just as an aside, don't forget that Jeep Safari week is starting March 15th.

    They changed things last year as we found out accidentally when I forgot it was safari week. Now on trails like Gold Bar and Amasa ONLY the organized group from the safari for that day is allow on the trail. This makes it really good for mountain bikers as we are not restricted and as long as you are away from the jeep line you have the trail entirely to yourself. It was a really good change (for us at least).

    It means that if you are there that week you really want to ride on the "official" jeep safari trails as I imagine the others would all be an absolute zoo.

  20. #20
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    I get what UT is saying and I agree. I won't get into a big debate about it cause there's no point but yeah, he's correct.
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  21. #21
    My cup runneth over
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail
    Speaking in general trail terms, what with Pueblo a few weeks ago being an issue, and Palmer and Ute looking pretty bad over the past several years... Just seems to be a growing problem along the front range in the winter months.

    Plants suffocate underneath packed snow/ice. So when you pack a trail and it takes longer to melt than what the native vegetation is used to, you start loosing that vegetation along the edges of the trail and it will widen over time.

    Also, compacted soil becomes loose and friable under ice and the freeze/thaw cycles like we see here on the front range. Up higher I don't see an issue because the snow never melts. Like I said it's just my opinion.
    Interesting perspective on the snow packed trails UT - first I have heard of it and it bears thinking about. Here are some of my thoughts (biased towards my liking packed snow as a surface for riding):
    1. Are we concerned about plants under the snow on dirt trails? Unless people ride off the trails, I am not sure that this is a problem.
    2. Regarding riding along the edges of the trail, I think this is an issue regardless of snow pack. We should probably be just as sensitive to staying on the trail snow packed or not. I do see how this can be more difficult in a heavy snow (mostly unrideable for those of us not on Surlys!) where you cannot see the trail.
    3. I have definitely seen the loose soil on a recently dried out trail, I am not sure it is any worse with a packed snow melt off compared to non-packed - this could be a concern though.
    4. My main defense for riding the snow pack is that the only time it is fun (for me) is when hikers/runners have packed it down already. I can see that riding at that time would potentially compound the problem but I am also keenly aware that there are very few riders engaged until it melts.
    Overall I would probably encoruage riders to get out there frozen over the option of muddy.

  22. #22
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    I suppose.. But especially in the lower areas of the Front Range that we're talking about (7500ft and less), there really isn't that much snow to speak of to begin with, and even if compacted we're talking about a delay in thawing of maybe a week or so. So, while I agree with what has been said, I don't currently believe that this is a major issue in our little neck of the woods.
    **** censorship

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    I get what UT is saying and I agree. I won't get into a big debate about it cause there's no point but yeah, he's correct.
    Except that it's entirely OT for the current thread.

  24. #24
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    couple of thoughts

    This thread raised a few thoughts in my head...

    First of all, since the FC Natural Area folks are reading: Thank You for one of the best trails in the area. This trail is sooo cool and scenic and an absolute joy to ride. Following a few rules like no night riding, no riding on DR and no downhill on the road seems like the least we can do.

    Second, I, as an individual mountain biker have no control over what other bikers do. Sure, I'll say something if I see it, but in my experience those conversations really don't go anywhere positive. Here's a suggestion for the FCNAs folks. Please don't "catagorize" all bikers together. Telling me I can't mt bike there if other people keep breaking the rules is kinda like saying I can't drive a car anymore if somebody keeps using a car to rob a bank.

    It is a privilege to ride there, but it is also a citizen initiated sales tax program that pays for it. So we own it, too. I support strict enforcement of the rules, including heavy fines. I would also support a program that bans users from the area if they are caught again and again. (Maybe a little hard to enforce, but not impossible).

    So again: thanks for a fantastic trail and I'll add to the pleading for other riders out there to please follow the rules.

    Finally, here are a few pics from yesterday:






  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Except that it's entirely OT for the current thread.
    Eh, big deal.
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

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