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  1. #1
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    WARNING to Bobcat Poachers!

    To the three riders who chose to Poach the D.R. Trail at Bobcat Ridge today. Keep up that type of activity and you run the risk of ruining it for everyone. Riding on closed or prohibited trails may ultimately get the whole place shut down to mountain bikes. Remember riding on Fort Collins Natural Areas is a privlage, not a right! Please respect posted signs and notices.

    Thanks

    FCNA Rangers.
    Last edited by fcna; 03-08-2008 at 07:19 PM.

  2. #2
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    Did you get a look at these guys or what they were riding? This is way too nice of a trail to lose access. I was just out there today and it's not like they could've missed the closure barricade.

  3. #3
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    prepare for soapbox!

    Bad deal kids.....
    Bobcat is really a prime example of trail resource/user group compromise. Finally a trail that separates users and gives mtn bikers the better of the trails! DR isn't anything compared to Ginny from a bike standpoint. Let the horses have it.
    Since it was their first post it seems that these three have p1ssed the FCNA off enough to go through the trouble of creating a user account just to post their warning. Hopefully we can police ourselves effectively enough that FCNA won't have to. Everybody seems to get along pretty well right now... Even the cow-people with their giant hooved locusts smile and speak cordially in this area. Be a shame if a couple punks got the wrong horseborne city commisioner all riled up while riding the forbidden fruit. Be a big problem for us all.
    Right now the trail access issue in Larimer county is practically a non-issue. We asked for Blue Sky and it happened. We have almost free-reign of horsetooth, lory and DBB- we were even given back sections of closed trail based largely on user feedback. Bobcat and Ginny were funded and built. Nobody bothers us up in the buckhorn, poudre and big thompson canyons. We have what people in the Metro area have been crying and fighting over for years: a hands-off harmony (for the most part) of managers and diverse users. This is due largely to a dedicated group of volunteers who donate trail time and public meeting time and personal time to us, the mountain bike user group, and is predicated on polite user behavior keeping everyone happy. Gotta yield right of way. Not a bad idea to smile and exchange some how-you-doings with the hikers and equestrians. Gotta be nice just like we were taught in kindergarten. Gotta stay off the trails designated "no bikes".... which for right now are very few and far between.
    We start acting like jerks and we will notice a response. It sucks that the first post from the collective Fort Collins Natural Areas people is a shotgun reprimand versus a kudos for disciplined trail use or an invite to a user meeting.
    The FCNA people found their way to mtbr, so maybe they ride too... But even if they don't I hope we see more of them on this forum. Hopefully we can work together in the future and this forum be used as an open line of communication for feedback and constructive input.
    **** censorship

  4. #4
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    Well Said!!!

    Hope you folks at the FCNA understand that just like any poplulation or group, we get a couple of jack@sses that like to make the rest of us look bad.

  5. #5
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    fcna - Thanks for the information and I hope that the you know that most of us are listening and following the rules! We appreciate your efforts in helping the rest of us have wonderful areas for the community to enjoy. Anything the rest of us can help with, please don't hesitate to post!

    subliminalshiver - Excellent post. You stay up on that soapbox... I'll see if I can hunt around for a megaphone!

  6. #6
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    First off, those poachers are clowns. However, they are stupid, selfish also and probably not reading mtbr. If so, nice job a-holes.
    Please realize, that this is a small portion of bikers, just like the horse tracks I saw on Ginny trail yesterday, people who think it's ok to litter, hikers who walk around muddy spots and widen the trail or rangers who can't spell privilege (we kid because we love). Unfortunately, if there is a trail, it will be poached, either by hikers, bikers or equestrians.
    But I appreciate the vigilance and diligence of the rangers. It would suck for it to turn out like Boulder.
    Tequila tonight, tomorrow we ride!

  7. #7
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    fcna, thanks for posting, hopefully posts like this and pressure from other riders will make people think a bit more about what they're doing. As I've mentioned to a couple of you already, feel free to contact me
    when you see user issues arise and I will try to spread the word to the cycling community (though posting here yourself is perhaps the most effective tool anyway).

    We are very lucky to have this trail, don't screw it up people. There's been a strong trend of new trail development in the last few years, we need to take advantage of that by continuing to develop good relationships with those who manage and maintain the trails.

    Joining Subliminal on the soapbox here...Seems like a good thread to bring up the log rides on Ginny. While I certainly enjoyed riding a few of them (no, I didn't put them there) it has become obvious that the city and/or rangers don't want them there. They were removed and chainsawed apart, so that should be a hint of how they feel about logs being placed like that.
    I simply want to stress how much of a HUGE mistake it would be right now for riders to get into a back and forth battle with the rangers by re-placing logs after they've been removed. No good will come of it, they'll get removed again and our relationship with the rangers will suffer. It would be really stupid to screw up our access to this trail for something that's going to get removed anyway.

    We have to look at the big picture here. While we'd all love to have a trail where we could do stuff like that, we've got to pick our battles wisely. Our best chance of someday getting permission to build a more freeride oriented trail is to develop a strong relationship with the rangers and city/county parks management. Being responsible and playing by the rules is the best way to do that right now. Some if not all of the rangers out there ride, so they could be a huge asset to us in developing a good working relationship with park management.

    Larry
    Mountain High Cyclery
    larry@mtnhighcyclery.com
    "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity". - Dave Barry

  8. #8
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    Thank you everyone for you posts. We can accomplish so much more with a cooperative effort rather than assuming adversarial roles.

    [QUOTE][just like the horse tracks I saw on Ginny trail yesterday]

    Equestrians can access the Ginny Trail up in Mahoney Park from the Powerline Trail to the pinch point in the boulders. One of the Rangers saw tracks in that section the other day.

  9. #9
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    fcna,
    I'd guess that if you post up a notice on here for trailwork days that you'd get a good volunteer response from this forum. I think you'll find there's plenty of us that care enough about these trails to make up for the occasional morons.

  10. #10
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    I just wonder how we could do a better job of informing youngsters, newbies, and the ignorant.

    I have often thought that perhaps when Bike shops sell a bike to an obvious rookie or even a seasoned veteran it could be a good idea to actually hand them a small write up on basic Mtn Bike ethics.
    Simple stuff like
    1. Yield to uphill traffic.
    2. yield to horse and hikers.
    3. obey trail signs
    4. If a trails muddy don't ride it.
    5. if you must ride it stay in the center as to not widen the trail
    6. Be kind and respectful of other trail users
    7. Pack it in pack it out.
    8. Try not to startle wildlife.
    9. ETC ETC ETC.



    Just an Idea.

  11. #11
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    I don't get you guys at all.
    15 years ago everyone talked about what type of cross training we were doing that winter. Riding on trails with mud OR snow was not good bull. Riding on snow is just as bad as mud IMHO.

    I'm all for giving Rangers the right to write tickets and assess fines for not following trail rules/ethics. Maybe a $50 ticket would do the trick? because the honor system seems to be broken.

    Flame away.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail
    I don't get you guys at all.
    15 years ago everyone talked about what type of cross training we were doing that winter. Riding on trails with mud OR snow was not good bull. Riding on snow is just as bad as mud IMHO.

    I'm all for giving Rangers the right to write tickets and assess fines for not following trail rules/ethics. Maybe a $50 ticket would do the trick? because the honor system seems to be broken.

    Flame away.
    Ummm.. Not sure what you're getting at. Ginny was pretty much bone dry this weekend.. has been for most weekends since early Feb.

  13. #13
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    Easy now UT.... no one said anything about anyone riding these particular trails while muddy.... although the valley loop at bobcat was recently temporarily closed due to muddy conditions. But snow? C'mon, hard-frozen snow is just good fun.
    **** censorship

  14. #14
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    Speaking in general trail terms, what with Pueblo a few weeks ago being an issue, and Palmer and Ute looking pretty bad over the past several years... Just seems to be a growing problem along the front range in the winter months.

    Plants suffocate underneath packed snow/ice. So when you pack a trail and it takes longer to melt than what the native vegetation is used to, you start loosing that vegetation along the edges of the trail and it will widen over time.

    Also, compacted soil becomes loose and friable under ice and the freeze/thaw cycles like we see here on the front range. Up higher I don't see an issue because the snow never melts. Like I said it's just my opinion.

  15. #15
    Mojo0115
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail
    Speaking in general trail terms, what with Pueblo a few weeks ago being an issue, and Palmer and Ute looking pretty bad over the past several years... Just seems to be a growing problem along the front range in the winter months.

    Plants suffocate underneath packed snow/ice. So when you pack a trail and it takes longer to melt than what the native vegetation is used to, you start loosing that vegetation along the edges of the trail and it will widen over time.

    Also, compacted soil becomes loose and friable under ice and the freeze/thaw cycles like we see here on the front range. Up higher I don't see an issue because the snow never melts. Like I said it's just my opinion.
    which is why we have the desert!
    IMG_2264.JPG

    IMG_2270.JPG

  16. #16
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    fcna why didn't you ticket these fools or at least throw down in some fisticuffs?

  17. #17
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    Damn zzsean. Those pics make me really miss the desert. I need a vacation bad.

  18. #18
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    second that.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIMBERRR
    Damn zzsean. Those pics make me really miss the desert. I need a vacation bad.
    'tis the season for it.

    Just as an aside, don't forget that Jeep Safari week is starting March 15th.

    They changed things last year as we found out accidentally when I forgot it was safari week. Now on trails like Gold Bar and Amasa ONLY the organized group from the safari for that day is allow on the trail. This makes it really good for mountain bikers as we are not restricted and as long as you are away from the jeep line you have the trail entirely to yourself. It was a really good change (for us at least).

    It means that if you are there that week you really want to ride on the "official" jeep safari trails as I imagine the others would all be an absolute zoo.

  20. #20
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    I get what UT is saying and I agree. I won't get into a big debate about it cause there's no point but yeah, he's correct.
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail
    Speaking in general trail terms, what with Pueblo a few weeks ago being an issue, and Palmer and Ute looking pretty bad over the past several years... Just seems to be a growing problem along the front range in the winter months.

    Plants suffocate underneath packed snow/ice. So when you pack a trail and it takes longer to melt than what the native vegetation is used to, you start loosing that vegetation along the edges of the trail and it will widen over time.

    Also, compacted soil becomes loose and friable under ice and the freeze/thaw cycles like we see here on the front range. Up higher I don't see an issue because the snow never melts. Like I said it's just my opinion.
    Interesting perspective on the snow packed trails UT - first I have heard of it and it bears thinking about. Here are some of my thoughts (biased towards my liking packed snow as a surface for riding):
    1. Are we concerned about plants under the snow on dirt trails? Unless people ride off the trails, I am not sure that this is a problem.
    2. Regarding riding along the edges of the trail, I think this is an issue regardless of snow pack. We should probably be just as sensitive to staying on the trail snow packed or not. I do see how this can be more difficult in a heavy snow (mostly unrideable for those of us not on Surlys!) where you cannot see the trail.
    3. I have definitely seen the loose soil on a recently dried out trail, I am not sure it is any worse with a packed snow melt off compared to non-packed - this could be a concern though.
    4. My main defense for riding the snow pack is that the only time it is fun (for me) is when hikers/runners have packed it down already. I can see that riding at that time would potentially compound the problem but I am also keenly aware that there are very few riders engaged until it melts.
    Overall I would probably encoruage riders to get out there frozen over the option of muddy.

  22. #22
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    I suppose.. But especially in the lower areas of the Front Range that we're talking about (7500ft and less), there really isn't that much snow to speak of to begin with, and even if compacted we're talking about a delay in thawing of maybe a week or so. So, while I agree with what has been said, I don't currently believe that this is a major issue in our little neck of the woods.
    **** censorship

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    I get what UT is saying and I agree. I won't get into a big debate about it cause there's no point but yeah, he's correct.
    Except that it's entirely OT for the current thread.

  24. #24
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    couple of thoughts

    This thread raised a few thoughts in my head...

    First of all, since the FC Natural Area folks are reading: Thank You for one of the best trails in the area. This trail is sooo cool and scenic and an absolute joy to ride. Following a few rules like no night riding, no riding on DR and no downhill on the road seems like the least we can do.

    Second, I, as an individual mountain biker have no control over what other bikers do. Sure, I'll say something if I see it, but in my experience those conversations really don't go anywhere positive. Here's a suggestion for the FCNAs folks. Please don't "catagorize" all bikers together. Telling me I can't mt bike there if other people keep breaking the rules is kinda like saying I can't drive a car anymore if somebody keeps using a car to rob a bank.

    It is a privilege to ride there, but it is also a citizen initiated sales tax program that pays for it. So we own it, too. I support strict enforcement of the rules, including heavy fines. I would also support a program that bans users from the area if they are caught again and again. (Maybe a little hard to enforce, but not impossible).

    So again: thanks for a fantastic trail and I'll add to the pleading for other riders out there to please follow the rules.

    Finally, here are a few pics from yesterday:






  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Except that it's entirely OT for the current thread.
    Eh, big deal.
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  26. #26
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    My guess is that since disc brakes came along riding on wet/snowpacked trails has become easier, and therefore maybe that's why we're seeing some of the trail damage we never saw 10 years ago? i.e. people are riding in the winter when they used to do other sports. I know I find myself riding in wet conditions much more than I used to since going to discs.

    Please don't think I'm trying to point the finger or say don't do it. It was just an observation as a long time resident and trail user turned trail planner. I don't think anyone really knows the answer right now since professional trailbuilding is in its' infancy and long term studies haven't been conducted to find the answers.

    Just trying to give everyone a few things to think about when riding in the winter, and especially Spring months, when we see these freeze/thaw cycles happening.

    Anyway, back to ice, if you want a sure way to piss off your local greenkeeper in the winter all you have to do is go XC skiing across his golf course without permission... it takes that stuff several days longer to melt, and if it doesn't melt before the next storm, the chance of snow mold growing underneath the ice grows each day, and if it does, you loose turf.
    http://www.ppdl.purdue.edu/PPDL/imag...damageturf.jpg
    http://www.ppdl.purdue.edu/PPDL/weeklypics/1-24-05.html

    That also brings up the concern about frost damage. Which probably causes more damage than riding on the snowpacked/ice trails. Go walk across your lawn the next time you have a really good frost to see what I'm talking about. It may take a few days for the damage to appear, but it will be there for several weeks afterwards.
    http://www.ppdl.purdue.edu/PPDL/images/frostdamage1.jpg

    And, geez those trail pics are nice. I wish I could build those here...

    For our county parks, the biggest hurdle is getting singletrack built in the first place. Any time I propose it, the maintenance staff asks "how are we supposed to take care of it?". (grab a shovel, get out of your truck, and walk) So frustrating...
    (In their defense, it really comes down to lack of budget for labor. We have so little money we can't hire enough people to maintain trails, especially for labor intensive singletrack, as opposed to machine maintained gravel trail. That's why is so important for people to volunteer to maintain trails.)

    Sorry for hijacking your thread.

  27. #27
    cheeseburger in paradise
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail
    For our county parks, the biggest hurdle is getting singletrack built in the first place. Any time I propose it, the maintenance staff asks "how are we supposed to take care of it?".
    Another answer to this question is, design sustainable trail. A trail designed sustainably will need minimal maintenance.

    http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_...le_trails.html
    singlecrack

  28. #28
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    Well, I couldn't agree with Dino more.

    To punish all cyclist by a complete ban over a few poachers is ridiculous, and wouldn't solve anything. Poachers by there very name are well.....Poachers. Do you think they are going to obey a ban? I think not. Why??? Because they are POACHERS!!!

    So many posts like this are preaching to the choir. I would think very few people who frequent these boards are the type of rider that do this sort of thing. The type of people who do this are either ignorant, don't give $hit or both.

    For all you guys who like to constantly beat this drum. There is a simple reality. There will always be idiots like this and you cannot punish the whole for the actions of a few. Last time I checked this is still America.

    I would be all for harsh enforcement. If you TRULY want to limit this kind of thing (the key word is "limit" even threat of the death penalty couldn't stop everyone). You need to start ticketing these guys, something normal for a first offense, say $50. But a second offense should be very punitive, say $500.

    I realize these areas are not heavily patrolled. But you could do selective enforcement. Such as if you are having trouble in a given area. Get some Rangers out there at random intervals and lay down the law. Nothing else is really gonna work. And as I already mentioned, you're not going to be able to stop everyone, no matter what. Even with a ban. If nothing else a ban would only serve to make more poachers and punish the law abiding.

    FCNA posted what is a pretty generic complaint, although specific in it's location. We should just have a "form" for post that people can use to lump everyone together for their rant. Just a blank where you insert the a-hole of the moment. Maybe a drop down menu for the usual suspects (i.e. downhiller, shuttler, wearers of armor, don't forget poachers) You all know the type I'm taking about. Enemies to the true riders.

    Face it. We have laws against speeding. But in reality almost everyone speeds at some time or another. You don't ban all drivers from the road because some disobey the law.

    We are a long way from a Utopian society. Thank God for that.
    Last edited by RickyD; 03-10-2008 at 04:31 PM.

  29. #29
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    "Sustainable" is my favorite word.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluchris
    Another answer to this question is, design sustainable trail. A trail designed sustainably will need minimal maintenance.
    Yeah, that's a given. With our budget "sustainable" is my favorite word for any work I do.

  30. #30
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    FNCA- I saw horse tracks up the inital Ginny singletrack sat. 3/8 for about 1 mile up

  31. #31
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    hey for all of you who want to give back check out dpmbp.org i think we are going to be doing a trail day at bobcat soon, i will keep you posted on dates

  32. #32
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    Tap the brakes...

    Is heavier enforcement really what we want? Do we really want to initiate a culture of persecution? I mentioned this earlier but it is important: We enjoy a tenuous harmony with resource managers. Right now we don't have rangers hiding around corners and radioing descriptions back to the parking lot. We don't have heavy-handed fines. I don't think they have been necessary for one, and two there is a high financial cost of enforcement involved that could be better spent on actual resource management vs. slapping a couple loose cannon miscreants around. Do we really want to reallocate our economic energies in that direction? Do we really want to polarize the rangers in that direction, give them specific directives to target mountian bikers? This is sort of a self-fullfiling prophecy: Poachers are warned creating a public fervor against poachers in an attempt to project blame on faceless perpetrators. Greater scrutiny is devoted to mountain bikers by greater and more diverse observers. More problems are found. The log crossings on ginny. The tracks in the mud. Empty GU packets on the trail. The list goes on. Pretty soon this whole mountain bike thing starts to look like more of a hassle than it's worth considering all the resources it takes to manage it.
    This is not the time for pointing fingers.
    THEY did it. Punish THEM. I saw horse tracks up there too....
    We may never find these three and string them up over the rocks in Mahoney park like would seem proper. Sooner or later though they will hear about it and if they are met with disappointment and reprimand from their peers instead of high-fives they'll get the point. And maybe that's all it takes to keep ourselves in check. We have to be our brother's keepers, because as much as we like to think of these poachers as THEM, the FCNA people are going to see them as US.
    It is a time first for an apology. DR was misued by a trio of mountain bikers and we the greater group are sorry for it. We the greater group are just as interested in preventing further instances like it.
    Then it is time for increased vigilance amongst ourselves.These were obviously not lone gunmen. It took three of them, each processing the idea to poach and then agreeing to it.
    Thus, it falls to us to police this. If we see hear or read of this type of activity we must let these riders know that it can't be tolerated. This is as simple as "Hey man, um... I'm pretty sure that trail is off limits, not cool to ride there..". This is usually received better when followed up with a frosty beverage and conversation about other good riding in the area. But that's just me as I like beer and talking about riding.
    **** censorship

  33. #33
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    No persecution necessary, but I do wonder if FCNA posts on equestrian forums, threatening possible closure when they are in the wrong as they do for us. I realize mt. biking is young compared to horse riding however I do feel that there could be a little more equality. A huge majority of front range riders are responsible trail users.

  34. #34
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    It's all part of the compliance triangle I learned with the FS back when I was a ticket writer. Engineering, Education and Enforcement. You can't manage public lands without all three. Trail designs should make sense to allow all users to access loops and destinations without violating the law. Signs, bulletin boards, and rangers should be available to inform the public on what the laws are and why they're important. And there should be the recognition that violating the laws will have consequences.

    I left the USFS because after 11 seasons I was still making less than any of my friends working in the real world, but I loved the work nonetheless. It was frustrating at time, challenging on even the best days, but offered rewards that can't be put into words. With that said, I'm still waiting for the land manager (rarely, if ever, the guy in the field) who will have the guts to open the first few bike-only trails. I've worked on trails in FS Wilderness areas that were absolutely descimated by equestrian use, but horses were never banned despite the risk to both the horse and the resource. While I think many of the front range open spaces are prime examples that hikers, horses, and bikers can all get along; it's too often that conflict eliminates the bikers because hikers and horses have been the "historical use". There are several front range trails that are absolute cr@p for hiking, sweet for mountain biking, and there's talk about closing them to bikers again. Scotland and Wales have recognized the big dollars that MTBs can bring into a local economy and have received a huge return on investment with Coed y Brenin and the 7-Stanes cycling centers. Several of the ski areas have capitalized on this in the last decade and softened the seasonality of their economy by catering to bikes. Why is it that so many land managers on the front range see cyclists as a nusance to be dealt with when 99% of us are law-abiding folks who open our wallets support local businesses where we ride?
    Train 'til you puke. Cheat to win. Party like a rockstar. We miss you, Jan!

  35. #35
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    well

    some great points there subshiv...making me rethink my post for sure.

    I guess I might hope for both stricter enforcement and less need for it through our own actions.

    I see your points as the ideal and theoretical: "Let's all band together as a group and self-educate and self-enforce because we're all in this together."

    But my faith in that approach eliminating the problem is low. I've had too many interactions where just because we were both on a bike (or both in running shoes, or both with a dog, or both on skis, etc) didn't mean we saw eye to eye.

    Think about this: FCNA says to you. OK, subshiv, we are going to completely 100% step out of Bobcat. We will count on you and your fellow mt bikers to enforce the rules. If it works and there is no evidence or reports of rule-breaking, you keep access, otherwise you lose it. I, for one, am too cynical to believe it would work. Good goal and something to work towards, but I think it is also a good goal to convince Natural Areas staff (and other resource managers) to think about rule breakers as rule breakers and not as some greater damnation of all the mt bikers out there or something that our "community" is just ignoring and if we all tried harder we could fix.

    just my 2 cents and probably not worth quite that much

  36. #36
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    I understand where you're coming from and I agree. I too have a cynical side. And you're right about what would happen if FCNA just turned everything over to any of the user groups. The main thing is that it's too big a task. Same reason that the city of loveland doesn't just turn over control of the water department to its user groups. The users have other things to do like jobs and families and second jobs. It's far better to let the professionals handle it with guidance and input from the users. I think there are other examples out there... I think its called a Republic. America used to be like that.... but I digress.
    I guess what I'm saying is that we need to keep things in balance. Anyone remember how much fun all those Apex threads were about rangers giving bikers a hard time last summer? I'm all for the rangers who regularly patrol these areas, but in this part of colorado I get the impression that their primary focus is to make a presence known, to interact with the public, and to monitor use and when necessary in fine print at the bottom of the page they have to once in a while enforce a rule or two. When I meet these people on the trail I'm always met with a smile and genuine conversation and have found them to be great resources about trails and happenings.
    That's what I think is so great about the relationship we have with them in this area. We have balance. There will always be US and THEM, the trick is to make the US the side of the land manager types AND us, and the THEM the people that are breaking the rules- horses, hikers and bikers alike.
    This doesn't take much, just a little leadership from a few key players who set standards in social groups... the people that organize rides, people who run or work in shops, people that set up group rides here and there. These are the people who set the culture of this area and whose lead will be followed. People who know how to ride and have fun and can make doing the right thing look good.
    **** censorship

  37. #37
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    For those who have posted concerns regarding seeing hose tracks on the Ginny Trail, representatives of the local chapter of the Colorado Backcountry Horsemen and Larimer County Horsemanís Association were contacted shortly after the opening of the D.R. and Ginny Trails for regulation violations including riding on closed trails, parking and failure to remove manure from the parking lot. Both have made a point to make their members know what had been going on. We were not pointing fingers or grouping all equestrians as bad, for the actions of a few, but using them as a conduit to pass along our concerns to one of our primary user groups, as we have on this forum for the mountain biking community, in an effort to accomplish so much more through cooperation rather than assuming adversarial roles.

    As a side note. Trail Conditions for all the Cityís Natural Areas can be found on our web page at http://fcgov.com/naturalareas

    Thanks again for your all your posts.

    FCNA Rangers

  38. #38
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    it pisses me off to see the fcna threatening to close the trail to all of us because of 3 morons. these guys are paid with tax payer dollars to enforce the rules along the trail. why are they even bringing this to our atention? shouldnt they be going after these 3? am i to beleave that for funding this trail i must also police it? i think the fcna needs to spend less time surfing mountain bike forums and more time doing there job

  39. #39
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    well put rockymtnway...

    ruger, not so much

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger45
    it pisses me off to see the fcna threatening to close the trail to all of us because of 3 morons. these guys are paid with tax payer dollars to enforce the rules along the trail. why are they even bringing this to our atention? shouldnt they be going after these 3? am i to beleave that for funding this trail i must also police it? i think the fcna needs to spend less time surfing mountain bike forums and more time doing there job
    I had a different perception of the FCNA post. I didn't read the original post as FCNA are threatening to close the area, but rather they are warning that other user groups could try to have the area shut down to us as a result of the irresponsibility of a few. As opposed to policing, it seems that they are just asking for us to spread the word among those we know. I see FCNA out on bikes and hiking more often than it appears they are on this site. The post here was likely an effort to reach the most people with the least effort, so they could get back out on patrol. All of my interactions with them have been friendly and positive, whether at Bobcat, Michaud, Pineridge, etc.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger45
    it pisses me off to see the fcna threatening to close the trail to all of us because of 3 morons. these guys are paid with tax payer dollars to enforce the rules along the trail. why are they even bringing this to our atention? shouldnt they be going after these 3? am i to beleave that for funding this trail i must also police it? i think the fcna needs to spend less time surfing mountain bike forums and more time doing there job
    Holy crap! Can you really be serious?
    I don't even know what to say to that. It is such a blatantly inflammatory comment that I am inclined to believe that it was posted solely with the intent of destabilizing what has otherwise been a very productive post.
    By why I ask would someone do such a thing? Laced more with vehemence than sarcasm I can't even think that it was intended as a joke.
    You post like you expect the FCNA to be on patrol like some sort of police force, with the investigative power to track down the wrongdoers and make them pay for their indiscretions, or maybe CSI: Bobcat Gulch.
    The FCNA folks are doing a fine job. The trails look great, we have multiuser trails, a generally diverse selection of user-specific trails and they have taken the time to bring this issue to our attention, to make us aware of the problem, a courtesy call..
    Do you really want some gestapo squad eyeballing you every time you show up at a public area to ride, swinging their ticket books and licking their chops? Is it wise to ask that they make writing tickets to users a priority?
    Their job is to create and preserve an environment most conducive to sustained use by diverse users. They have given us a gentle reminder that yeah, they're watching, they notice, and if rules (in place to keep everyone playing nice) are continually broken that changes will have to be made. Sounds like they've mentioned reciprocal offenses to the horse-people too.
    So you've funded this trail, you are probably against volunteer trail days? Probably don't bother to pick up the occasional piece of trash you might find along the way then, either. You think that since you have paid some taxes that you've done enough?
    Yikes. We are our own worst enemies.
    **** censorship

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger45
    ...am i to beleave that for funding this trail i must also police it?
    I notice that your MTBR user profile says you live in Loveland. Unless you have moved since creating your MTBR profile, you are not funding the trail. The Bobcat Open Space is a Fort Collins city-owned open space. I believe it is us, the Fort Collins residents, who are paying (or paid) for the land, paying the salary for the rangers, paying for the maintenance and upkeep, etc. so everyone can enjoy this park.

  43. #43
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    so let me get this strait submissive shiver when i leave my job and head to the trail i now need to do theirs? if there not a police force then why can they carry a gun but i cant? im not asking them to make ticket writing a priority but if they see a violation hapening why do they come here like it is our fault? and their post said when dr and ginny were opened they informed the manure factory riders of rule violations, like every horse rider is a member of some group. like the 3 amigos there had to be readers of mtbr. last year i took 2 week off work to help with trail maintanace in the rawah wilderness and every time i go hiking my gril complains that i dont need to pick up every powerbar wraper i see. you can chose to disagree with my post all you want but how dare you come on here and atack my charactor like that. i have always tryed to warn people about riding were there not suposed to not because it is my job but just for the fact that a few bad apples can ruin it for evey one. but the fcna coming on here with the aditude that we need to police ourselfs or we risk being kicked out is horsecrap. its almost like they dont want us there to begin with. not that that would surprise me mountain bikers have always been the piss-on that takes the blame for every peice of trash left or tree branch broken or trail widened. seems to me a horse is a lot hevier than a bike

  44. #44
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    Hmmm...Do I go high road or low road with this one?

    Cute Ruger45. Very cute. Name calling. Very mature.
    First off... I don't think that all of them do carry guns. And if you can't carry a gun the only reason that comes to mind is if you had a felony in your past or something like that which would disqualify you from firearm ownership. You can actually carry a gun. Contact the Larimer county sheriff for your concealed carry permit. Find Lyle Crumbstrom and you guys can take the firearms safety class that is required together.
    Second, they haven't come here like it's our fault. They came here posting a notice to the 3 people who they were aware of poaching DR. You are making some gross assumptions taking what the FCNA actually wrote and putting your own emotionally charged spin on it. Perhaps they saw mtbr as a good avenue of communication with the user group, as the front range forum is one of the most active. They have responded in this forum several times and the third was especially cordial.
    Look... You're very noble for your contributions to trailwork in the Rawah (honestly... no joke, no sarcasm.. I really think that's great), and despite whatever your "gril" says you keep on picking up those powerbar wrappers. I wrote nothing to attack your "charactor". Your spelling and grammar I might take a poke at but that's really as far as I'll go with the personal "atacks". I'm sorry you took what I wrote so personally but I really think you're overreacting to what was really a good-intentioned original post- that's my opinion and I already know how you feel about that.
    If you don't want to be a part of a cooperative effort to work with the FCNA, if you're cool just doing your own thing and leaving it to someone else that's fine. That's cool. I understand. Everybody's busy and it's nice to just get out and ride and not worry about any of this and just let those who get paid to handle it, handle it. The FCNA isn't soliciting any help from anyone and they are going to let you use the trails just as much as anyone else- wherever your taxes are paid. It sounds like you're probably a good trail user and I doubt there will be any issues with you poaching or littering or otherwise messing up the place so you're pretty much a non-factor in this if that's what you want to be.
    Everybody seems to have a nice little slice of the pie and everybody seems to play well together. We have cool trails to ride minutes from home. The spectre of trail closures is something that has always been ominous to mountain bikers and will always remain a possibility. The FCNA has no reason to "come in here and threaten" us. That's crazy. They built Ginny with us in mind. Built it for us. Personally I'm excited about the trails at Bobcat, and I'm excited at the opportunity to continue to have a nice open line of communication with the FCNA for whatever issues come up. I'm passionate about this and I want to help keep these trails open for us and figure out ways to make the whole area better. It's important to me. Maybe it isn't to you. Maybe you just want to show up, get your ride in and go home happy and unbothered. You'll get no flak from me. But I think you're counterproductive to the cause in lighting up the FCNA for posting here, accusing them of having attitude and of making threats. You seem a little angry in your posts, and cool heads are generally more well received.
    Anyway.. I hope that my apology for hurting your feelings is accepted. Cheers.
    **** censorship

  45. #45
    Phknbiknrid'n
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    Follow the money

    Quote Originally Posted by sgltrak
    I notice that your MTBR user profile says you live in Loveland. Unless you have moved since creating your MTBR profile, you are not funding the trail. The Bobcat Open Space is a Fort Collins city-owned open space. I believe it is us, the Fort Collins residents, who are paying (or paid) for the land, paying the salary for the rangers, paying for the maintenance and upkeep, etc. so everyone can enjoy this park.

    Just for point of fact on the money for this area:

    The construction of the Ginny and D.R. trails was funded in part by the Virginia D and D.R. Pulliam Charitable Trust and the City of Fort Collins Natural Areas Program's dedicated sales tax revenue. A special use permit from the Roosevelt National Forest allows portions of both trails to cross National Forest Service lands.

    I don't live in Ft. Collins but I do plenty of shopping there. There is also Federal land involved here (which, of course, we all own and pay for).

    So, it is certainly not limited to Ft. Collins resident to pay for this trail. I would imagine the locals pay the bulk but Ft. Collins has quite a regional draw for shopping.
    Chris

    "They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time."

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singlecrack
    Just for point of fact on the money for this area:

    The construction of the Ginny and D.R. trails was funded in part by the Virginia D and D.R. Pulliam Charitable Trust and the City of Fort Collins Natural Areas Program's dedicated sales tax revenue. A special use permit from the Roosevelt National Forest allows portions of both trails to cross National Forest Service lands.

    I don't live in Ft. Collins but I do plenty of shopping there. There is also Federal land involved here (which, of course, we all own and pay for).

    So, it is certainly not limited to Ft. Collins resident to pay for this trail. I would imagine the locals pay the bulk but Ft. Collins has quite a regional draw for shopping.
    SC, thanks for the clarification, and a big thanks to all who shop here for bringing sales tax $.

  47. #47
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    It's really too bad this discussion is taking place. Oh, for the days when everyone rode rigids, wore jeans and a t'shirt and just wanted to have some fun.

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