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  1. #1
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    Two top mountain-bike racers face impersonation charges

    http://www.denverpost.com/ci_15043329

    Is this over the top?

    Two women are being charged with felony impersonation over one racing in the other's place at Leadville.

    Apparently one woman was injured, so rather than wasting the fee, the other woman rode. Unfortunately, she managed to get 2nd, someone (they are not sure who) collected the prizes, and now they are both facing felonies.

    I started racing at Leadville long before there was a lottery or any of that. There is no way I could ever imagine it weirding out to this level.

  2. #2
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    Definitely over the top. This is ridiculous. Chlouber ought to be ashamed of what he's done to the race. He bends his own rules to get Armstrongs guys in after the race was more than full... Non-refundable $250 entry fee is ridiculous. Deadline for entry is in Feb...so you can't often tell what shape you'll be in by race time, much less injury free. I did the same thing for the Triple Bypass...was sicker than a dog when the ride rolled around..then I sold my spot to a friend.

    Felony charges for this is more than idiotic. Nice work Ken.

    R

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit
    http://www.denverpost.com/ci_15043329

    Is this over the top?

    Two women are being charged with felony impersonation over one racing in the other's place at Leadville.

    Apparently one woman was injured, so rather than wasting the fee, the other woman rode. Unfortunately, she managed to get 2nd, someone (they are not sure who) collected the prizes, and now they are both facing felonies.

    I started racing at Leadville long before there was a lottery or any of that. There is no way I could ever imagine it weirding out to this level.

  3. #3
    zrm
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    Pretty silly to make it a criminal matter. I understand some of the reasons why promoters have no transfer - no refund policies, (although don't necessarily agree with all of them)I I can't imagine though, what Clouber thinks anyone has to gain by pressing charges.

    IMO Leadville is way overrated as a 100 mile race anyway. Unique scene and all that, I suppose that's worth something, but as a mountain bike race it's not that great.

  4. #4
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    Leadville 100 has turned into more of a road race than anything resembling a mountain bike race. You know there is no way they could have made the switch out in the open. That would never have worked. So, instead, they do it on the sly and get burned.

    I foresee some boycotting of the race in the near future.

  5. #5
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    I think these ladies are lame, it's made VERY clear to everyone that you can't do this. If they were so interested in making it right why didn't she approach Ken about the injury before the race? She didn't have a problem with pulling strings to get in. What would have happened if Lyall had gotten hurt on the course, would Ken then by responsible for her?

    I think a felony is harsh, but you know these are adults that chose to do this.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mateomtb
    I think these ladies are lame, it's made VERY clear to everyone that you can't do this. If they were so interested in making it right why didn't she approach Ken about the injury before the race? She didn't have a problem with pulling strings to get in. What would have happened if Lyall had gotten hurt on the course, would Ken then by responsible for her?

    I think a felony is harsh, but you know these are adults that chose to do this.

    Personally, I think a lot of races need to have a better refund/transfer policy, (somewhere between draconian and so liberal that it becomes a huge PITA) but you should know and accept the rules when you sign on the line. No doubt if the reports are accurate it's not cool to do what they did the way they did, but I don't see anything to gain by anyone to make it a criminal matter. DQ, ban, sure, that's the race directors discretion, but does the DA really need to be bothered with this?

    Caveat: There is probably a lot more here than is being published in the paper or spread on the interwebz.

  7. #7
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    Well, they'll probably plead to a misdemeanor, pay a fine and be done with it.

    As the race organizer, I wouldn't think it's over the top. If she hadn't race to won, no one would have been the wiser, but since she had to go for the gold... and cost two people podium positions (#3 would have been #2 and #4, #3) the impact was beyond just the number fraud.

    And consider this... had the illegal racer crashed and been seriously injured or even killed, what do you think she and/or her family would do to the race organizers? Massive lawsuits, possibly costing them their insurance coverage.

    This is way beyond just one person using another's race numer/entry and for a national level race, they do have to do something to show they are serious about fraud and safety. And maybe even to meet their insurance providers requirements for continued coverage.

    Over the top? Maybe. Will they be convicted of a felony? Highly doubtful. Probably USA Cycling should chime in with a suspension from racing, too. That would probably be the most effective deterrent for a serious racer!

  8. #8
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    Getting convicted of a felony is no joke. That can make employment extremely difficult in the future. As in goodbye corporate america, hello lawn care. Why would the race organizers pursue a felony charge unless they genuinely want them convicted? C'mon its a mountain bike race! Probation and job loss because of racing under someone else's number? Someone is taking themselves a little too seriously I think.
    Last edited by Ansible; 05-08-2010 at 05:03 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyechka
    Leadville 100 has turned into more of a road race than anything resembling a mountain bike race.
    Hasn't it pretty much always been something not resembling a mt bike race? That's always been my take.

  10. #10
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    Just getting formally CHARGED with a felony is no joke. Unless there is some sort of fake ID or identity theft ring behind this, Mr. Race Organizer needs to take a chill pil and just issue the DQ or perma-ban (not to mention rethink his policies and make them more rider friendly).

  11. #11
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    Yeah, Choubler and the DA need to chill out. Wasting tax money on this, a private race for (mostly) amateurs? Choubler bends his own rules, if the entrants are famous, but calls for a felony prosecution when a racer bends the rules to avoid throwing away the $250 non-refundable fee? Remember- the women won zero money and only got a trophy (which was returned). Just ban them and/or have them give $$ to a local charity and be done with it. But a felony prosecution that will be reported on every employment app for the rest of their lives? Really Ken?

    I have attended the last 3 races and was planning on returning to watch this year but the organizers are out of control. A few weeks ago, they posted on their website that if you pay/donate $2,000 to their charity, they will let you in the race and bypass the lottery (ie bend the rules). Or, if you pay the approx $2,000 to Carmichael's training camp, you get in and bypass the lottery (ie bend the rules). Or if you are famous (Lance, Levi, etc), you can bypass the lottery (ie bend the rules). But if you get in legitimately, but are injured in the months after paying the non-refundable fee, well, you are screwed. Well, the organizers can contiune to do this since it is their race but I won't be supporting it anymore.

  12. #12
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    It will probably keep me from ever going to leadville for any reason, not just the race....BR

  13. #13
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    The Leadville Race has lost what it was. The first time I did it I was very impressed with the community feel of it. The pre-race spaghetti dinner where volunteers wouldn't let me out the door without at least 2 free beers in my pockets. The guy who tried to give me his gloves when I realized I left mine in the car while on the start line.
    Last year there were F*ing helicopters. And don't even me started on the whole "buy your way in via Carmicheal" BS.
    It used to be something more. Something actually real that you could take away with you for the rest of the year.
    Now it's just another stupid race about money.
    I feel for these women. Makes me want to get about 300 people together and poach the race.

  14. #14
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenR
    It will probably keep me from ever going to leadville for any reason, not just the race....BR

    Why? Ken Clouber is one person who lives in Leadville. To suggest a "boycott" of Leadville for the actionsof one person is about as over the top as Cloubers action.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by subliminalshiver
    Last year there were F*ing helicopters.

    I'm guessing for the movie?





    Why didn't the girl just back off her pace to avoid the podium? crazy.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    I'm guessing for the movie?





    Why didn't the girl just back off her pace to avoid the podium? crazy.
    My guess is that she didn't know she was going to podium. That race is a mess...It's impossible to tell where you are in your group, or what group the person ahead of you is in.

  17. #17
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    Anyone even know how many women were in the 40-49 category? I am guessing not too many. These are women in their 40s, racing because they enjoy it, not women hoping to move up into pro racing.

    BTW, has anyone noticed that the organizers changed the website this year so previous years results can't be found. The results also contained splits, which was useful information. Wonder why they removed this section.

  18. #18
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    makes sense, also I didn't think about the 40-49 cat. of course you can't tell where you are in the group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Why? Ken Clouber is one person who lives in Leadville. To suggest a "boycott" of Leadville for the actionsof one person is about as over the top as Cloubers action.
    Not a boycott, just no desire to visit the place now...BR

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    Hasn't it pretty much always been something not resembling a mt bike race? That's always been my take.
    OH PL-EASE Gimmie a f'n break.Have you done the race yourself? I am tired of people who havent done this race complaining/*****ing about it.Mostly because they are secretly mad for not making the lottery.Leadville was one of the first ultra endurance races in the country,and continues to be one of the toughest.No,it doesnt have a lot of "singletrack",But it makes up for that with high elevation climbs.There isnt a lot of singletrack in the Leadville area,but lots of fs roads that climb climb climb.People have tried to do the race on cross bikes with less than stellar results.Of course as the sport has evolved,new races (ie Breck) continue to push the envelope w/more climbing singletrack,etc...And although the race has changed(a lot) it still remains the best organized,funnest(imo) ultra's out there.The town still rallies at 6:30 am to cheer on the racers all day,and the vibe leading up to the race is great.And regarding the woman who "cheated",you deserve what you get for having the stupidity to accept a medal in front of 1000 + people in a race you knowingly "scammed".....Rant over.

  21. #21
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    Brazelton bent the rules to get herself in the race, remember she didn't make the lottery to begin with, she should hold herself to a higher standard knowing she got special treatment. Plus the women racing in her place wasn't even in the age group, she's in her 30's. Have any of you ever won in something competitive? There is nothing like that buzz from taking your spot on the podium and since this is an amateur race and nothing more than a simple "road ride", that's the prize. Someone who followed the rules got ripped off because of the lameness of these women. You guys also know that Ken isn't the one who decides this is a felony charge right? Per the race packets if you are caught violating this rule they will consider it theft of services and notify the sheriff. That's what he did. Law enforcement came up with this charge bases upon the law. Remember these are the guys up there tazering kids and arresting the fire department during 911 calls. I also wonder if how they are treating season ski pass poaching has a lot to do with it?

    For all the people on here always rooting for the LBS and small biz etc. I don't know why everyone gives Ken so much crap. He's a local guy who was able to build a successful business off of bike racing? How many people are able to do that?! I'm sure none of us in our business or personal lives are taking any kinds of liberties with people who we do biz with, or owe us favors or just because we like someone. How many times has your LBS dude hooked you up because you drop off a 12 pack now and then, and the next guy through the door pays full price?

    In the end I agree this is all pretty silly. I'm going to go ride my bike now.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by subliminalshiver
    I feel for these women. Makes me want to get about 300 people together and poach the race.
    just out of curiosity...

    would you get in a lot of trouble for riding the course at the same time as the race?
    with the exception of the dam crossing, it's all public/forest service roads...i believe.
    or do the race directors somehow reserve all the roads to registered racer rider only traffic during the day of the race?

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    I would assume you could ride it, even events such as the NYC marathon let runners run who did not get officially drawn...The just don't get an official time or photo at the finish...BR

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoulderfu
    OH PL-EASE Gimmie a f'n break.Have you done the race yourself? I am tired of people who havent done this race complaining/*****ing about it.Mostly because they are secretly mad for not making the lottery.Leadville was one of the first ultra endurance races in the country,and continues to be one of the toughest.No,it doesnt have a lot of "singletrack",But it makes up for that with high elevation climbs.There isnt a lot of singletrack in the Leadville area,but lots of fs roads that climb climb climb.People have tried to do the race on cross bikes with less than stellar results.Of course as the sport has evolved,new races (ie Breck) continue to push the envelope w/more climbing singletrack,etc...And although the race has changed(a lot) it still remains the best organized,funnest(imo) ultra's out there.The town still rallies at 6:30 am to cheer on the racers all day,and the vibe leading up to the race is great.And regarding the woman who "cheated",you deserve what you get for having the stupidity to accept a medal in front of 1000 + people in a race you knowingly "scammed".....Rant over.
    I didn't understand the comment as a "complaint." Pretty much everyone I have ever spoken with about the Leadville 100 has had a similar take. Everyone agrees it's challenging, but almost without exception people I've spoke with have always thrown in the caveat about the lack of singletrack and the minimal trails. I mean, if someone said to you, "hey, let's go on the mountain bike ride," and the route consisted of no or very few trails, I imagine you'd have appreciated a bit more explanation.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTC Rider
    But a felony prosecution that will be reported on every employment app for the rest of their lives? Really Ken?
    very few applications require the reporting of prosecutions. usually only convictions. and they are unlikely to be convicted of a felony.

  26. #26
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    I think the reality of the situation is that the Leadville 100 is now very important to the small town of Leadville. The DA is charging this as a felony (probably with lots of pressure from above) to protect the reputation of the race so that it continues to be popular and bring in lots of money to the town. I think this is race is now Leadville's claim to fame and they will vigorously protect that.

    For those of you that are criticizing the organizers entry requirements and that they may "bend" the rules no and then to get certain people in. As the race organizer Ken has absolute authority to let anyone he want's to race. The rules for admission are not set in stone and should be and are subject to change to meets certain goals.

    No matter what the DA's motives are, a felony charge is ridiculousness. A lifetime ban from racing however is not.

  27. #27
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    When I pointed out how much Choubler "bends" the rules, I was merely showing the hypocrisy that when others do so, the organizers take it to the nth degree to enforce the rules but ignore how much they bend their own rules. The organizers can bend the rules all they want since it is their rules but they must be called out on it when they do (particularly when they show no mercy on others).

    They should have done the punishment directly instead of getting the DA involved and wasting taxdollars on this frivolous matter. After all the other stuff the organizers have done in the last few years, this is the final straw for me.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoulderfu
    OH PL-EASE Gimmie a f'n break.Have you done the race yourself? I am tired of people who havent done this race complaining/*****ing about it.Mostly because they are secretly mad for not making the lottery.Leadville was one of the first ultra endurance races in the country,and continues to be one of the toughest.No,it doesnt have a lot of "singletrack",But it makes up for that with high elevation climbs.There isnt a lot of singletrack in the Leadville area,but lots of fs roads that climb climb climb.People have tried to do the race on cross bikes with less than stellar results.Of course as the sport has evolved,new races (ie Breck) continue to push the envelope w/more climbing singletrack,etc...And although the race has changed(a lot) it still remains the best organized,funnest(imo) ultra's out there.The town still rallies at 6:30 am to cheer on the racers all day,and the vibe leading up to the race is great.And regarding the woman who "cheated",you deserve what you get for having the stupidity to accept a medal in front of 1000 + people in a race you knowingly "scammed".....Rant over.
    No singletrack... no care.

  29. #29
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenR
    Not a boycott, just no desire to visit the place now...BR
    Why "now" and not before this came to your attention? I'm not trying to start a pi$$ing match, just curious. Personally, I don't see what this has to do with whether Leadville is a worthwhile place to visit or or not.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    I didn't understand the comment as a "complaint." Pretty much everyone I have ever spoken with about the Leadville 100 has had a similar take. Everyone agrees it's challenging, but almost without exception people I've spoke with have always thrown in the caveat about the lack of singletrack and the minimal trails. I mean, if someone said to you, "hey, let's go on the mountain bike ride," and the route consisted of no or very few trails, I imagine you'd have appreciated a bit more explanation.
    I've done the race a couple times back in the day. For me it's not so much the lack of singletrack, although singletrack is nice of course. Jeep trails, especially in the high alpine are fine with me. It's the amount of pavement and graded dirt road as well as the out and back format. I've always thought they should be able to come up with a better course given all the miles of obscure mining roads there. A series of big loops or a multi lap race on a 25 or 50 mile loop.

    As I said before, the race has it's own circus like, big event, "happenin" vibe and there's a place for that - it's not a bad thing IMO. Kind of like doing the triple bypass, it's as much a social event as a challenging event. As a 100 mile MTB race though, the course isn't that great.

    As far as I know, Clouber has always been more of a trail runner and not much of a cyclist. I think that shows in what kind of course his race has.

  31. #31
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    A felony? Over a bike race. Seriously fvcking ridiculous.

  32. #32
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    They are clearly making an example of this woman to send a message to others who sell or give away their entries. Why aren't they transferable? So we don't have scalping of race slots the way we have scalping of concerts and sports. If race spots were transferable, some ahole would set up a system to get a whole bunch then turn around and sell them for $2,000 a pop. How ballistic would people on the board go if the only way to get a ticket was to pay some scalper $2,000?

    Ken is protecting his race from this kind of thing and, frankly, I don't know how you can blame him. He OWNS the races. This is his business. If people don't like it, they can choose not to participate. I'm sure it's not the race it was 10 years ago before anybody knew about it. Nothing that becomes popular or nationally known can fully preserve its original flavor. That's the world. Giving away spots to pros that will raise the profile of the race is good business for Ken and for Leadville. Letting sponsors buy spots is good for Ken and good for Leadville. It didn't look to me like the people in the movie who were pouring their hearts and souls into the race seemed to care.

    Actually, if you think about it, Ken is doing a lot to preserve the race. If he wanted to maximize profit, he would dutch auction the race entries, which would peg their exact value and only those with the money would be able to participate. Bidders submit how much they are willing to pay for each entry. If there are 100 entries, each person ends up paying what the 100th person bid. Given that demand for this race massively outstrips supply, I think we can conclude that what Ken is charging is well below what the entries are actually worth. Instead, he holds a lottery and keeps the entry fee artificially low. In order to do this though, he has to make sure that the entries are non-transferrable. Otherwise, someone people will sell the race spots and pocket the difference between what they pay Ken and what they get for the entry, thus capturing the profit that Ken is foregoing in order to make the race more widely accessible. Just because the women in this example didn't sell the race spot, doesn't mean what they should go unpunished. Because there is no way to police who gave away a spot and who sold it, the race spots must be universally non-transferrable and it must be enforced. Ken is keeping the race more accessible for everyone by enforcing these rules.

    To use the commercialism of the race and the price of entry and the non-refundable nature of the fees as an excuse for what these woman did is analogous to saying that if a bike shop is charging too much for something, it's ok to steal it. This is stealing, even if it's just a belt buckle. The ever-rightous MTBRers would seemingly be against these women. I bet if it was a race you would have won, you'd be pretty pissed, right?

    Yes, these women are being made an example of and felony seems harsh. However, if you don't play by the rules and the law in life, you can expect that, at some point, you will get caught and it will suck. They knew the rules, the rolled the dice and now they have to live with the consequences. And, hopefully, it sends a message to the rest of the race community that this kind of thing isn't going to be tolerated because that protects the sanctity of the race, fees and results for all of us.

    Brant

  33. #33
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    I cant believe how many people are rationalizing this ridiculous charge. There is no rationalization for charging someone with a FELONY for someone using someone else's entry to a bicycle race that was PAID FOR. No theft of services here... Money was paid for services, and services were received. Ban them from the race? Sure thing. But to charge them criminally is over the top no matter how you look at it. What a waste of tax money.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by B-Rant
    They are clearly making an example of this woman to send a message to others who sell or give away their entries. Why aren't they transferable? So we don't have scalping of race slots the way we have scalping of concerts and sports. If race spots were transferable, some ahole would set up a system to get a whole bunch then turn around and sell them for $2,000 a pop. How ballistic would people on the board go if the only way to get a ticket was to pay some scalper $2,000?

    Ken is protecting his race from this kind of thing and, frankly, I don't know how you can blame him. He OWNS the races. This is his business. If people don't like it, they can choose not to participate. I'm sure it's not the race it was 10 years ago before anybody knew about it. Nothing that becomes popular or nationally known can fully preserve its original flavor. That's the world. Giving away spots to pros that will raise the profile of the race is good business for Ken and for Leadville. Letting sponsors buy spots is good for Ken and good for Leadville. It didn't look to me like the people in the movie who were pouring their hearts and souls into the race seemed to care.

    Actually, if you think about it, Ken is doing a lot to preserve the race. If he wanted to maximize profit, he would dutch auction the race entries, which would peg their exact value and only those with the money would be able to participate. Bidders submit how much they are willing to pay for each entry. If there are 100 entries, each person ends up paying what the 100th person bid. Given that demand for this race massively outstrips supply, I think we can conclude that what Ken is charging is well below what the entries are actually worth. Instead, he holds a lottery and keeps the entry fee artificially low. In order to do this though, he has to make sure that the entries are non-transferrable. Otherwise, someone people will sell the race spots and pocket the difference between what they pay Ken and what they get for the entry, thus capturing the profit that Ken is foregoing in order to make the race more widely accessible. Just because the women in this example didn't sell the race spot, doesn't mean what they should go unpunished. Because there is no way to police who gave away a spot and who sold it, the race spots must be universally non-transferrable and it must be enforced. Ken is keeping the race more accessible for everyone by enforcing these rules.

    To use the commercialism of the race and the price of entry and the non-refundable nature of the fees as an excuse for what these woman did is analogous to saying that if a bike shop is charging too much for something, it's ok to steal it. This is stealing, even if it's just a belt buckle. The ever-rightous MTBRers would seemingly be against these women. I bet if it was a race you would have won, you'd be pretty pissed, right?

    Yes, these women are being made an example of and felony seems harsh. However, if you don't play by the rules and the law in life, you can expect that, at some point, you will get caught and it will suck. They knew the rules, the rolled the dice and now they have to live with the consequences. And, hopefully, it sends a message to the rest of the race community that this kind of thing isn't going to be tolerated because that protects the sanctity of the race, fees and results for all of us.

    Brant
    Nice post Brant. Like I said, I understand why race promoters have no refund no transfer policies even though I might think there might be ways to modify those policies to make the event a bit racer friendly. Plus, I think the entry fee is more than a bit steep but that's not the issue.
    Most people here have agreed that a DQ, life time ban and whatever ramifications from the point of view of sanctioning body violations are appropriate. Plus, the return of prizes is, or course, a no brainer. The question is whether or not something like this should be put into the criminal system.
    As an ex-race promoter and someone who is still involved with the management of races, my opinion is no. Others may have different opinions and points of views and that's fine. If it were my race though, I wouldn't involve the law authorities. I think you can protect your event without going that far. In fact, I think you could quite possibly do more harm than good from a PR point of view. As you said, though, vote with your wallet and I have choosen not to do the race for quite a few years for reasons that have nothing o do with this issue.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by B-Rant
    They are clearly making an example of this woman to send a message to others who sell or give away their entries. Why aren't they transferable? So we don't have scalping of race slots the way we have scalping of concerts and sports. If race spots were transferable, some ahole would set up a system to get a whole bunch then turn around and sell them for $2,000 a pop. How ballistic would people on the board go if the only way to get a ticket was to pay some scalper $2,000?

    Ken is protecting his race from this kind of thing and, frankly, I don't know how you can blame him. He OWNS the races. This is his business. If people don't like it, they can choose not to participate. I'm sure it's not the race it was 10 years ago before anybody knew about it. Nothing that becomes popular or nationally known can fully preserve its original flavor. That's the world. Giving away spots to pros that will raise the profile of the race is good business for Ken and for Leadville. Letting sponsors buy spots is good for Ken and good for Leadville. It didn't look to me like the people in the movie who were pouring their hearts and souls into the race seemed to care.

    Actually, if you think about it, Ken is doing a lot to preserve the race. If he wanted to maximize profit, he would dutch auction the race entries, which would peg their exact value and only those with the money would be able to participate. Bidders submit how much they are willing to pay for each entry. If there are 100 entries, each person ends up paying what the 100th person bid. Given that demand for this race massively outstrips supply, I think we can conclude that what Ken is charging is well below what the entries are actually worth. Instead, he holds a lottery and keeps the entry fee artificially low. In order to do this though, he has to make sure that the entries are non-transferrable. Otherwise, someone people will sell the race spots and pocket the difference between what they pay Ken and what they get for the entry, thus capturing the profit that Ken is foregoing in order to make the race more widely accessible. Just because the women in this example didn't sell the race spot, doesn't mean what they should go unpunished. Because there is no way to police who gave away a spot and who sold it, the race spots must be universally non-transferrable and it must be enforced. Ken is keeping the race more accessible for everyone by enforcing these rules.

    To use the commercialism of the race and the price of entry and the non-refundable nature of the fees as an excuse for what these woman did is analogous to saying that if a bike shop is charging too much for something, it's ok to steal it. This is stealing, even if it's just a belt buckle. The ever-rightous MTBRers would seemingly be against these women. I bet if it was a race you would have won, you'd be pretty pissed, right?

    Yes, these women are being made an example of and felony seems harsh. However, if you don't play by the rules and the law in life, you can expect that, at some point, you will get caught and it will suck. They knew the rules, the rolled the dice and now they have to live with the consequences. And, hopefully, it sends a message to the rest of the race community that this kind of thing isn't going to be tolerated because that protects the sanctity of the race, fees and results for all of us.

    Brant
    But wait, as someone pointed out earlier, CTS "scalps" race entries for some ridiculous amount already. So the idea that they are keeping people from charging exorbitant amounts for race spots is old news, done that.

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    Ken could take a lesson from Rich (Laramie Enduro race director). His system solves the whole transferrable/scalper problem. The first spots sell out quickly and everyone else ends up on a wait list. If you get injured, you withdraw and the next waitlisted person gets your spot.

    Done and done.

  37. #37
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    Commercial racing for posing points and well known juicy types. Boring!. I'm going to do the Half Ass 100 before the weenies come out and ruin it.

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    The best case scenario for any race promoter is to sell entry's and then not have to provide any services. They make 100% profit on all DNS's. Look at the list from the past 10 years of people that don't even show up at the start. It is in the hundreds per year. They are counting on people not showing up.

    The website does not have the past results any more but the year I did it there were 750 entrants, 600 starters, and 500 finishers. Plus or minus.

    150 x $200 = $30,000 right to the bottom line.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggs
    Ken could take a lesson from Rich (Laramie Enduro race director). His system solves the whole transferrable/scalper problem. The first spots sell out quickly and everyone else ends up on a wait list. If you get injured, you withdraw and the next waitlisted person gets your spot.

    Done and done.
    I suspect there is more to it than this. Risk management and insurance liability come into play here.

    If you're on the wait list, will you train properly for the possibility that you might get a last minute spot? Some will, but human nature says most won't and they become a risk to the pack and to the organizer.

    Yes, you can argue that some people who do get a lottery entry won't train enough,either, but then it's on them since they've had their entry confirmed for months and in a liability lawsuit, they won't have much to stand on.

    Now, if you take a last minute spot and have a heart attack or crash because you're so tired you're incoherent, the way our liability system works, you know the courts (and jury - which includes all the indignant folks here who root for the little guy no matter what) and the way the laws are written will favor a big judgment against the race organizer for negligence in letting an unprepared racer enter the event.

    Or if a last minute entrant crashes and wipes out folks who have trained for months, maybe injuring them in the process, who do you think will get sued? The last minute racer? Or the perceived deep pockets of the organizer and the sponsors??

    I've ridden several events that have a no refund (they pay for stuff based on your entry) and no transfer policy and accept the risk when I sign up.

    As for felony prosecution, I stand by my belief that they'll reduce the charges and wind up paying a misdemeanor fine. And if they're smart, they'll get the record sealed so they don't have to disclose it on anything short of a national security application for a clearance.

    As for them not doing anything bad and for the organizer "bending the rules"... the racer that got injured played that game herself. She asked her shop to get her an entry even though she didn't get one through the lottery. Then, having received a favor or special treatment, she showed her appreciation by doing this? No, I don't have any sympathy for her even if the law does come down hard on her. The other racer? Well, since she didn't actually agree to the terms of the race and therefore didn't violate anything she agreed to, I do think she's being way over charged and should probably get off without any criminal fine or penalty and just a ban from the race (and, if she's a USA Cycling licensed racer, maybe a ban from any racing for a while, too).

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    Correction

    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    As for them not doing anything bad and for the organizer "bending the rules"... the racer that got injured played that game herself. She asked her shop to get her an entry even though she didn't get one through the lottery. Then, having received a favor or special treatment, she showed her appreciation by doing this? No, I don't have any sympathy for her even if the law does come down hard on her. The other racer? Well, since she didn't actually agree to the terms of the race and therefore didn't violate anything she agreed to, I do think she's being way over charged and should probably get off without any criminal fine or penalty and just a ban from the race (and, if she's a USA Cycling licensed racer, maybe a ban from any racing for a while, too).
    I was not going to chime in on here since I know both women very well. Just for the record, the story that Ken told the Denver Post is partially incorrect.

    Katie won her entry into the 2009 race via the lottery like everyone else, with the exception of the keynote pros, in January of 2009. The bike shop she rode for last year sent in 10 entries. 6 were chosen in the lottery, including hers. The misquote is unfortunate since now most believe she was granted special entry even though she went through the same process as most in the race.

    There is always more to every story and the Post only presented Ken's side.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by amytco
    There is always more to every story and the Post only presented Ken's side.
    What!?!?! The Post only presented one side of the story? I'm sure they researched both sides and simply presented the facts to their readership in an informative, unbiased manner.
    ...Oh, wait... Am I back from Bizarro-world already? It's so hard to tell sometimes.
    Yeah... This is the Normal-world, and the Post is just doing what it does. It's OK, the newspaper is an antiquated relic whose sentimental readership is fading into obscurity. Pay them no mind.
    Chlouber keeps stepping on the peasants to touch the King's robes. Sooner or later he'll trip and they'll turn on him. Which is unfortunate for everyone.

  42. #42
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    Crap race, crap trails, crap organizers. I'll go ride 100 miles of fireroads with all the wannabe elitist and currently mountain hillbilly priks here before doing Leadville....and that is saying something. Gross overreaction by Ken too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by amytco
    I was not going to chime in on here since I know both women very well. Just for the record, the story that Ken told the Denver Post is partially incorrect.

    Katie won her entry into the 2009 race via the lottery like everyone else, with the exception of the keynote pros, in January of 2009. The bike shop she rode for last year sent in 10 entries. 6 were chosen in the lottery, including hers. The misquote is unfortunate since now most believe she was granted special entry even though she went through the same process as most in the race.

    There is always more to every story and the Post only presented Ken's side.
    Amytco,

    Have your friends tried or asked what they can do to make this right with Ken? Maybe volunteer at his races for the next couple of years to avoid any criminal charges. Pay back the entry fees for both racers??? I'm just throwing out suggestions.

    I would be shocked if they are convicted with felony charges, I would be shocked if this isn't settled out of court, but people surprise me every day. They would get the right to a jury trial and that may change things, plus the DA will plea bargain this situation more then once.

    I know that what happened is not fair to all the other racers out there, but felony charges seem deep.

    BG.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueMountain
    Crap race, crap trails, crap organizers. I'll go ride 100 miles of fireroads with all the wannabe elitist and currently mountain hillbilly priks here before doing Leadville....and that is saying something. Gross overreaction by Ken too!
    Um,OK.But lets not forget WHAT the LT 100 races(yes there are multiple races,it's not just a 103 mile bike race) have done for the community in and around Leadville.Love or hate Ken,he has done a lot to keep a struggling mining community afloat.Maybe even help keep some folks employed that are friends/family of the nutbags on this board.Every year children in and around Leadville have a christmas thanks to the Leadville legacy.What have YOU done BM?
    Yeah the felony charge is silly(and will likely be dropped) But isnt it the po-po's decision,not Ken's as to what charges to file?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoulderfu
    But isnt it the po-po's decision,not Ken's as to what charges to file?
    It's technically the DA, but in a situation like this if the "injured" party asked for it to be dropped then they usually will.

    I really don't think some folks are understanding just how impacting defending a felony charge can be. It'll cost these women a minimum of a 5K flat fee each just to retain a decent criminal attorney for preliminary work.. substantially more if it goes to jury trial. If they can't afford someone good and claim indigence (tough to do if you own a car, house, or a 2K+ mountainbike) then they'll end up with a public defender and likely a substantial misdemeanor charge.

    So.. best case.. if they chunk into the kid's college fund, retain someone good, spend hours of their life driving up to hick-ass Leadville for prelim hearings and finally get lucky enough that it gets dropped, then it will still show up on their records. One of my departments handles background checks for our company and even though most state laws prohibit an adverse employment action based on such items, the checks still show every arrest and charge. A less informed or fair employer could see those and still decide not to hire someone based on some "other" reason. Government agencies are not bound by these same rules so this could impact their ability to obtain certain security clearances.

    Even if you're entirely innocent, defending a felony charge is a huge impact to someone's life and WAY the hell out of line for breaking the rules in damn bike race.

    I personally hope that if they pursue this that the negative PR kills the race and Lance and others pull attendance. If the town supports Ken, their sheriff and their DA pulling this crap then it deserves to waste back into the hillbilly shacks from which it came.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoulderfu
    Um,OK.But lets not forget WHAT the LT 100 races(yes there are multiple races,it's not just a 103 mile bike race) have done for the community in and around Leadville.Love or hate Ken,he has done a lot to keep a struggling mining community afloat.Maybe even help keep some folks employed that are friends/family of the nutbags on this board.Every year children in and around Leadville have a christmas thanks to the Leadville legacy.What have YOU done BM?
    Yeah the felony charge is silly(and will likely be dropped) But isnt it the po-po's decision,not Ken's as to what charges to file?
    seriously? Maybe I'm just not aware of all the good done by this organizer, but you really think that this silly elitist road geek race on mtn bikes is making a big difference in leadtucky??

    No matter how you look at it, as was mentioned above, the fact that someone is facing felony charges because of a bike race is absolutely inane. Ken should be *****slapped the next time any of you are in town. I'm stuck going to that blight on the top of the hill rather often, I'd love to meet up with him & let him know what it's like to be truly negatively affected by someone who could care less about the reality of their situation.

    Righteous asses like this guy should get a taste of what they're doing to someone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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    That place is a dump and new races will hopefully take over. Eff them- I'll never get gas there again. Go Senators race!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    That place is a dump and new races will hopefully take over. Eff them- I'll never get gas there again. Go Senators race!
    Clouber might be over the top here, but I don't think the folks who pay their bills selling gas or anything else in Leadville have anything to do with that.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Clouber might be over the top here, but I don't think the folks who pay their bills selling gas or anything else in Leadville have anything to do with that.
    If they're not petitioning against this to their local elected officials (sheriff & DA) then they do.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    If they're not petitioning against this to their local elected officials (sheriff & DA) then they do.
    Really? You think they give a s**t? Do you typically petition your Sheriff and local elected officials because of some perceived or real miscarriage of justice on matters that are of no interest of impact on you? If you don't, does this make you complicate with the wrong and should that be a good reason for others to boycott your livelihood? How about all the other racers? If they don't petition the Sheriff and elected officials are they complicate? ("Hey, Jack bike racer, 35th in the men's 30-25 category who owns Jacks bike shop didn't petition the Sheriff and elected officials, I'll NEVER buy anything from that bike shop again")

    Sorry if that seems a bit of a flame but your presumption seems a bit of a stretch IMO. I'd say If you feel strongly about it, you should contact those directly involved and let them know your feelings, but I don't see any reason to project any righteous indignation on people who have nothing to do with it and are just trying to make a living.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    That place is a dump and new races will hopefully take over. Eff them- I'll never get gas there again.
    I will still buy food at the taco truck. :drool:

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Really? You think they give a s**t? Do you typically petition your Sheriff and local elected officials because of some perceived or real miscarriage of justice on matters that are of no interest of impact on you? If you don't, does this make you complicate with the wrong and should that be a good reason for others to boycott your livelihood? How about all the other racers? If they don't petition the Sheriff and elected officials are they complicate? ("Hey, Jack bike racer, 35th in the men's 30-25 category who owns Jacks bike shop didn't petition the Sheriff and elected officials, I'll NEVER buy anything from that bike shop again")

    Sorry if that seems a bit of a flame but your presumption seems a bit of a stretch IMO. I'd say If you feel strongly about it, you should contact those directly involved and let them know your feelings, but I don't see any reason to project any righteous indignation on people who have nothing to do with it and are just trying to make a living.
    I'm going to assume you meant "complicit", not "complicate".

    If the history that was published in Mountain Flyer a while back is accurate then this race was started primarily to benefit the local business and economy as the mining industry started pulling out. Many of these local businesses now support and benefit from the race so yes, in my opinion, they have a responsibility to speak up when the race management goes so far over the top that they start tangibly harming their fellow Colorado citizens over their pissant race rules.

    If I heard that Ned was going to charge someone with a felony because they "cheated" on race entry in the Neder-Nederland I would certainly make my voice heard to the organizers, the sheriff and the town board; including pulling my support and volunteer work with the town if they allowed it to continue.

    Like I said, that's just my two cents.. because self-important BS like they're pulling here gets me riled and I have an absolute distaste for how our legal system regularly pisses on our citizens.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    I'm going to assume you meant "complicit", not "complicate".

    If the history that was published in Mountain Flyer a while back is accurate then this race was started primarily to benefit the local business and economy as the mining industry started pulling out. Many of these local businesses now support and benefit from the race so yes, in my opinion, they have a responsibility to speak up when the race management goes so far over the top that they start tangibly harming their fellow Colorado citizens over their pissant race rules.

    If I heard that Ned was going to charge someone with a felony because they "cheated" on race entry in the Neder-Nederland I would certainly make my voice heard to the organizers, the sheriff and the town board; including pulling my support and volunteer work with the town if they allowed it to continue.

    Like I said, that's just my two cents.. because self-important BS like they're pulling here gets me riled and I have an absolute distaste for how our legal system regularly pisses on our citizens.
    Complicate, complicit, what's the difference? (gotta pay closer attention to the auto spell check,,,, )

    As I said, I think it quite appropriate to voice your opinion to those who are directly involved in decision making. In fact, I'd encourage it. However, in your scenario with Nederland, would you cease doing commerce with a business(s) that didn't share your opinion or who are ambivalent? That's my point. To me it seems a bit of a stretch to place culpability on an entire community and say "I'm not doing business there" just because a few people are being pricks. That's painting with pretty broad strokes.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Complicate, complicit, what's the difference? (gotta pay closer attention to the auto spell check,,,, )

    As I said, I think it quite appropriate to voice your opinion to those who are directly involved in decision making. In fact, I'd encourage it. However, in your scenario with Nederland, would you cease doing commerce with a business(s) that didn't share your opinion or who are ambivalent? That's my point. To me it seems a bit of a stretch to place culpability on an entire community and say "I'm not doing business there" just because a few people are being pricks. That's painting with pretty broad strokes.
    It is broad strokes, and you're right, it's not really fair. The reality for me is that I can't think of a single other redeeming quality that would cause me to visit that town again so if I boycott the race, I'm essentially boycotting the town. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth so next time I'm driving through I'll be more likely to avoid stopping there and keep on going. It's an unfair and emotional response, but it's real.

    If I was a local business that depends on the race traffic then I'd be getting involved. This type of thing can generate a lot of negative PR and considering the race is named after the town, the town is going to get associated with it as well. PR is never fair.

  55. #55
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    Thump, I understand your point & to a general extent I agree. From my perspective though, the DA takes this type of thing as far as the complainant allows it to be taken to an extent. When the complainant calls the police about something like this, the DA looks up the statutes & sees what charges apply to the situation. At that point you, I, zrm, and our sisters can complain to the DA, but the only one they're going to listen to is the "injured"(cough) party. The one person that can make this go away in it's entirety is Ken & imo, the SECOND that he found out that they were going to be charged with felonies, he should have done so.

    I think the point is proven instantly when people realize how much trouble they could have gotten into, to take it so far as a criminal felony case is so far beyond extreme that it just sickens me.

    I see how you feel that the poeple up in pudunkville should stand up, but I don't see that happening, or see it helping if it did happen. There are situations where this type of thing can help, but when there is an injured party it's a waste of breath.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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    I just read from a comment on the Denver Post's website that Katie Brazelton, a teacher, lost her job last weekend due to these felony charges. Anyone know if this is true?

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mateomtb
    Brazelton bent the rules to get herself in the race, remember she didn't make the lottery to begin with, she should hold herself to a higher standard knowing she got special treatment. Plus the women racing in her place wasn't even in the age group, she's in her 30's. Have any of you ever won in something competitive? There is nothing like that buzz from taking your spot on the podium and since this is an amateur race and nothing more than a simple "road ride", that's the prize. Someone who followed the rules got ripped off because of the lameness of these women. You guys also know that Ken isn't the one who decides this is a felony charge right? Per the race packets if you are caught violating this rule they will consider it theft of services and notify the sheriff. That's what he did. Law enforcement came up with this charge bases upon the law. Remember these are the guys up there tazering kids and arresting the fire department during 911 calls. I also wonder if how they are treating season ski pass poaching has a lot to do with it?

    For all the people on here always rooting for the LBS and small biz etc. I don't know why everyone gives Ken so much crap. He's a local guy who was able to build a successful business off of bike racing? How many people are able to do that?! I'm sure none of us in our business or personal lives are taking any kinds of liberties with people who we do biz with, or owe us favors or just because we like someone. How many times has your LBS dude hooked you up because you drop off a 12 pack now and then, and the next guy through the door pays full price?

    In the end I agree this is all pretty silly. I'm going to go ride my bike now.
    A big +1

  58. #58
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    You're so weak...and your mention of the taco truck is weaking my resolve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwhan
    I will still buy food at the taco truck. :drool:

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    Moral of the story: don't cheat.

    Maybe there wasn't any wrongdoing in swapping numbers, but when the wrong person goes on the podium, that is definitely cheating. At that point the woman should have told everyone the truth, apologized, and let the other woman go to the podium. Accepting an award like that is unethical, and apparently criminal. Shame on both of them.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by av_boy
    I cant believe how many people are rationalizing this ridiculous charge. There is no rationalization for charging someone with a FELONY for someone using someone else's entry to a bicycle race that was PAID FOR. No theft of services here... Money was paid for services, and services were received. Ban them from the race? Sure thing. But to charge them criminally is over the top no matter how you look at it. What a waste of tax money.
    +1
    There are so many better things to do with tax money than waste it trying to figure out who won a mtb race. Or if professional athletes took performance enhancing drugs.
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    You all should read the post on this blog, it actually appears to have some credible information detailing how the mess went down.

    http://abusivediscretion.wordpress.c...ement-at-hand/

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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mateomtb
    You all should read the post on this blog, it actually appears to have some credible information detailing how the mess went down.

    http://abusivediscretion.wordpress.c...ement-at-hand/
    Don't go posting anything that might have good information. You can deflate a perfectly good interwebz torch and pitchfork mob that way.

    Or maybe not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueMountain
    You're so weak...and your mention of the taco truck is weaking my resolve.
    I'm drooling just thinking about the adovada torta. No way could I quit that place!

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Don't go posting anything that might have good information. You can deflate a perfectly good interwebz torch and pitchfork mob that way.

    Or maybe not.
    The way I see it that just slightly changes the direction of the mob. The DA is obviously a piece of crap, but Ken could still change the direction of the way things are going. He handed this to the DA with the intent of them being charged on at least SOME capacity. The fact that the DA took it too far is just the icing on the cake.

    A woman's career has been wrecked because of a stupid road bike race. Un****ing real.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    The way I see it that just slightly changes the direction of the mob. The DA is obviously a piece of crap, but Ken could still change the direction of the way things are going. He handed this to the DA with the intent of them being charged on at least SOME capacity. The fact that the DA took it too far is just the icing on the cake.

    A woman's career has been wrecked because of a stupid road bike race. Un****ing real.
    Agreed. I was speaking in more general terms of how the Internet forum world works. The blog doesn't really change much other than making it seem like Clouber and the DA are doing a bit of back pedaling. it would be nice to hear from the women themselves to get their side of the story. I'd imagine though that they are unbelieving that the whole thing has snowballed to the level it has and they are not anxious to fuel the fire any higher than it is already burning. It's not like these are people who make their living as bike racers.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    ... it would be nice to hear from the women themselves to get their side of the story. I'd imagine though that they are unbelieving that the whole thing has snowballed to the level it has and they are not anxious to fuel the fire any higher than it is already burning. It's not like these are people who make their living as bike racers.
    I would guess their attorneys told them to keep quiet. Pretty much par for the course anytime you're trying to negotiate a criminal settlement.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    I would guess their attorneys told them to keep quiet. Pretty much par for the course anytime you're trying to negotiate a criminal settlement.
    Yeah, you are probably right. Hopefully they are getting some kind of assitance with their legal fees.

  69. #69
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    Moral Relativism

    After reading every single entry to this point(67), I'm afraid that only one person gets a passing grade.
    B-Rant, congrats!

    The rest of all y'all fail MTBR Ethics 101 -

    Blaming Mr. Chlouber, the DA, the course or anything or anyone else?

    What about personal integrity? Personal responsibility?

    Is this what you are teaching your own children?
    God (s) help us if it is.....


    Personally, I was sickened by the actions of these two women. Sure, I can empathize on the one hand in a way -- she was sick, she couldn't get an entry, etc. but, there is NO excuse for their actions. They directly harmed other women in the race, the race itself and ALL cyclists - racers and recreationalists alike. They deserve everything that they have coming. They are adults and took caclulated actions. I can only speculate as to their pyschological state - i.e., narcissitic, sociopathic, etc.

    That's bad enough - but, to see one after another of you (excepting B-Rant, of course) excusing their actions to varying degree, is MORE appalling than the actions of these two women.

    Ranting and wailing about what is happening to those two?
    Felony or misdemeanor - I could care less. Too bad so sad. Hope that all works out. Whatever.

    Racing under someone else's name? Beating the ID check? Racing in an older age category? Standing on the podium? Accepting an award and the accolades - when you did not even ride? Months go by.....

    What part of this aren't you all getting?

    I KNOW what they are capable of -- but, what are all of you capable of?


    You know, something just occured to me - I could just ask you all one simple question -

    If it was your daughter that was knocked off the podium by these two, what would you say to her?


    Good luck to all of us -- cuz we certainly need it.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by lokiboy8
    Personally, I was sickened by the actions of these two women. Sure, I can empathize on the one hand in a way -- she was sick, she couldn't get an entry, etc. but, there is NO excuse for their actions. They directly harmed other women in the race, the race itself and ALL cyclists - racers and recreationalists alike. They deserve everything that they have coming. They are adults and took caclulated actions. I can only speculate as to their pyschological state - i.e., narcissitic, sociopathic, etc.

    That's bad enough - but, to see one after another of you (excepting B-Rant, of course) excusing their actions to varying degree, is MORE appalling than the actions of these two women.
    when I hear people say these woman's actions 'sicken' them, I get sick wondering how many high strung people there are out there who worry way too much about the outcome of some stupid mtn/road race...do these people actually get ill when a true felony happens?? are these type of people ever not ill? I, personally, get a kick out of this story: Picture the two gals going: "oh sh!t - you/I placed!! what are we going to do now!!"- funny stuff. Larry David needs to write an episode for this.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryhead
    when I hear people say these woman's actions 'sicken' them, I get sick wondering how many high strung people there are out there who worry way too much about the outcome of some stupid mtn/road race...do these people actually get ill when a true felony happens?? are these type of people ever not ill? I, personally, get a kick out of this story: Picture the two gals going: "oh sh!t - you/I placed!! what are we going to do now!!"- funny stuff. Larry David needs to write an episode for this.
    Well said HH!

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by lokiboy8
    After reading every single entry to this point(67), I'm afraid that only one person gets a passing grade.
    B-Rant, congrats!

    That's bad enough - but, to see one after another of you (excepting B-Rant, of course) excusing their actions to varying degree, is MORE appalling than the actions of these two women.

    ...
    Felony or misdemeanor - I could care less. Too bad so sad. Hope that all works out. Whatever.
    ...
    Maybe you can't read or failed reading comprehension. So I will summarize for you. No one on this thread "excused" their actions. Some disputed the intent of the actions.

    Cheating, lying, etc, are all disgraceful. Although there was disagreement about many things, the consensus was that the punishment did not fit the crime. (Or even if it was a crime)

    I mean really? a Felony? You could care less? Why is law enforcement even involved? This is a civil matter... why waste tax on this?

    How about this from the blog link that mateo gave above?

    Wendy and Katie (aka Vailís Thelma and Louise) would have been much better off if instead of committing a serious felony like cheating at mountain biking, they snowboarded drunk down the slopes of Vail and ran over an eight-year old girl in a hit and run. That man got a few hours of community service in Hurlbertís plea deal. Or they could have been charged with attempted murder, and got that plead down to a misdemeanor with no jail. Another option would be to pull a black woman by her hair across a bar room floor, tearing half of it out while screaming the c-word and the n-word at her. They could have gotten that felony assault reduced to a misdemeanor with 60 days of work release.
    I can only hope that someone like yourself never ends up in a position of defining public policy. That would be the real tragedy.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by lokiboy8
    If it was your daughter that was knocked off the podium by these two, what would you say to her?
    Well now that you put it that way.. I'd tell her we should string these two up, chop off their hands and do our best to destroy their lives for the next year.

    Next I'm hoping that we can get the law focused on other pressing criminal matters such as folks failing to yield to uphill riders.

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    I don't even now what to say or where to start in response. So, if a 10 yr old boy was wrongfully in your son's 9 yr old T-Ball league and the league banned AND then brought felony charged against this boy, you would tell your son, yes, that boy should be put in jail for more than a year? And, if the league's founder allowed other parents that he knew to put their 10 yr old sons in the league without penalty, but pursued criminal charged against the boy that he didn't know, that is OK with you too? Ken has allowed others that he knew to get refunds (like the woman in the movie that was injured in a car crash) and allowed others to "substitute" into the race for other racers when he knew who they were.

    No one is saying what the women did was OK and shouldn't be punished. The question is fairness. The rules that you are so sacred in defending, saying these women should be put in jail for at least a year (a felony, by definition, has a jail sentence of more than a year), should lose their jobs (as Katie Brazelton did), are arbitrarily made by the organizers and bent by the organizers when they feel like it. And arbitrarily enforced. Well, not arbitrarily enforced - if you know the organizers, then it seems like the rules will be bent but if you don't, good luck with that. Finally, the penalties should be commensurate with the crime.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by lokiboy8
    Personally, I was sickened by the actions of these two women. Sure, I can empathize on the one hand in a way -- she was sick, she couldn't get an entry, etc. but, there is NO excuse for their actions. They directly harmed other women in the race, the race itself and ALL cyclists - racers and recreationalists alike. They deserve everything that they have coming. They are adults and took caclulated actions. I can only speculate as to their pyschological state - i.e., narcissitic, sociopathic, etc.
    You sure think allot about this stuff wow. I herebye specullate that all your bitters comes from a deep seated sense of riding inferiorty but what do I know. HOthead.


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    Just answer the question

    Let's just talk about the moral and ethical considerations of the actions of these women.
    That is really the only point I was trying to illustrate. As to my lack of concern as to the charges, well, the fact that the DA is already backtracking and working out a settlement bears that out. I apologize for not being clearer in that regard.
    As to Brazelton losing her teaching job - wow, what a shock. Who could have seen that coming, huh? I mean, it is just a bike race, right?


    Leave everything else aside --
    Don't use a straw-man or any other framing, either. Just keep it simple.

    What do you say to your daughter who has been bumped off the podium by these two?

    Or, for extra credit --

    Your daughter is one of the two that did the bumping --

    Let's leave the legal and professional ramifications out of it.
    Like I said, real simple.

    I can't wait to see the convulutions of logic spill forth. Narcissists are fascinating.
    Just like Fascists, they are incapable of knowing what they are.....

    Begin!

  77. #77
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    I don't know about all this felony stuff for bike racing, but this thread sure has jumped the shark.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by lokiboy8
    I mean, it is just a bike race, right?

    What do you say to your daughter who has been bumped off the podium by these two?
    Life isn't fair and yes in the grand scheme of things it is "just a bike race."

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    I would like to leave the real life implications out of this but that's impossible. The organizers have completely destroyed these women's lives. Ken already punished these wrongdoers with a lifetime ban and return of the trophy. What more do you want?

    What these women did was wrong - no one is disputing that. What upsets everyone are two things. One, should the organizer have brought criminal charges/should the DA sought felony charges - i.e. is this moral/fair/appropriate to take this minor incident to this level of ridiculousness (punishment should equal the wrongdoing and not be disproportionate). It seem that you don't think any level of punishment would go to far. On a related note, if this felony prosecution cost the taxpayers (i.e. you) $30,000 for this minor incident, are you OK with that? Do you really feel that this is a major issue?

    Two, is it moral/ethical for the organizers to seek criminal charges for breaking rules that the organizers themselves arbitrarily created and bend whenever they feel like it?

    Would you tell your daughter that it is morally acceptable to organize a race, create rules for others to play by but that it is OK for your daughter to break such rules whenever she feels like, provided she pursues criminal charges against those who don't follow them?

    In any event, from the article, it appears that the woman who should have podiumed are not too steamed up about it. So who was really harmed to such degree that warrants a felony prosecution? And I would tell my daughter, if she was one of those who lost a podium spot, that the women who did this were punished and got a lifetime ban from the race (which Ken already did), that the trophy is being returned to the rightful owners (which Ken will do) and a separate ceremony will occur (which Ken will do). In other words, the wrongdoers are punished and things are made as right as possible. I would also tell my daughter that she earned the time she raced and that was not taken away and It Is Just An Amateur Bike Race! If you would tell your daughter that these women should be fried and their lives destroyed, you really need to chill out.

    And if my daughter did the wrongful act, I would tell them to do what these women did - return the trophy, accept the ban, offer to do whatever the organizer feels to make it right (Ken refused this offer), but I would tell them to fight felony charges over this senseless act.

    If you raced in sport class but saw that an expert racer was sandbagging in your class, would you call the sheriff or just ask the organizer to DQ that person? If someone steps on your toes at a festival, do you go get that person arrested for assault and battery (technically it is a criminal assault if they intended to step on your foot)?

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    I don't know about all this felony stuff for bike racing, but this thread sure has jumped the shark.
    The Fonz approves of this thread.


  81. #81
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    OK - done with this topic. Time to get out and ride (as soon as it dries out)!

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by lokiboy8
    Let's just talk about the moral and ethical considerations of the actions of these women.
    ...

    What do you say to your daughter who has been bumped off the podium by these two?
    !
    It's a life lesson - bfd. Learn from it and move on. If you were teaching your daughter to hold grudges and scream and cry until she gets her way, then this would be the way to do it.
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  83. #83
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    The MTBR flip flop

    In last weeks epic BigGaloot thread.... People were going to turn over the photos and the thread to the authorities and prosecute to the fullest extent. There were those that in not so many words said that they would KILL him under the make my day law. I thought people were getting a little too worked up about that. To me it was just some stupid photos of a trail that a guy walked on some private property to take. Was it wrong, YES, but I can't believe that people would waste my tax payer dollars going after this guy and possibly RUIN or END his life over something so silly. I'm never going to Idaho Springs again, boycott!

    This week, some women admit to fraudulently taking part in a PRIVATE event. They did this with full disclosure when they entered the race that the entry is non transferable and if you do this and get caught the sheriff will be called. That's what happened. Now the poor criminals are victims in all this, they could have worked it out on their own without involving the authorities and wasting my tax dollars, blah blah blah.

    Seems simple to me in either case.
    If it was my land, I call the cops and let them deal with it.
    If it was my race, I call the cops and let them deal with it.

    MTBR says:
    Poaching private land and taking internet photos = shootable offense
    Poaching a private event and stealing another persons huge moment in their life = no big deal

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by mateomtb
    MTBR says:
    Poaching private land and taking internet photos = shootable offense
    Poaching a private event and stealing another persons huge moment in their life = no big deal
    oh piss.. I'll bite.

    Poaching private land and taking internet photos = ass whoopin
    Poaching a private event and stealing another persons huge moment in their life = ass whoopin + lifetime banhammer

    Neither requires cops or lawyers.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by mateomtb
    The MTBR flip flop

    In last weeks epic BigGaloot thread.... People were going to turn over the photos and the thread to the authorities and prosecute to the fullest extent. There were those that in not so many words said that they would KILL him under the make my day law. I thought people were getting a little too worked up about that. To me it was just some stupid photos of a trail that a guy walked on some private property to take. Was it wrong, YES, but I can't believe that people would waste my tax payer dollars going after this guy and possibly RUIN or END his life over something so silly. I'm never going to Idaho Springs again, boycott!

    This week, some women admit to fraudulently taking part in a PRIVATE event. They did this with full disclosure when they entered the race that the entry is non transferable and if you do this and get caught the sheriff will be called. That's what happened. Now the poor criminals are victims in all this, they could have worked it out on their own without involving the authorities and wasting my tax dollars, blah blah blah.

    Seems simple to me in either case.
    If it was my land, I call the cops and let them deal with it.
    If it was my race, I call the cops and let them deal with it.

    MTBR says:
    Poaching private land and taking internet photos = shootable offense
    Poaching a private event and stealing another persons huge moment in their life = no big deal
    Sorry, you are so wrong here and have twisted what was said in the BigGaloot thread.
    MTBR doesn't flip flop. MTBR says nothing. Can you point to INDIVIDUAL people that said Galoot should be punished and now say these women shouldn't?

    Waiting...

    Most of the comments in the other thread were along the lines of:
    Respect private property.
    Take down the pictures.
    Don't do that anymore.

    Few people said he should be prosecuted and only one person brought up the make my day law. No one said they would kill anyone.

    I don't see anyone here condoning what the women did. People have a problem with the charges these women are facing.
    I see a disturbing trend in our country towards extreme life changing penalties handed out for minor offenses. Not that I agree this should be a criminal matter at all. I think it should be a civil/breach of contract issue.

    MTBR people don't speak with one voice. Keep your collective finger pointing to yourself.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    oh piss.. I'll bite.

    Poaching private land and taking internet photos = ass whoopin
    Poaching a private event and stealing another persons huge moment in their life = ass whoopin + lifetime banhammer

    Neither requires cops or lawyers.
    Until the ass-whooper gets arrested by the cops for said ass-whooping.

  87. #87
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    I'm here to post in this very important thread.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by lokiboy8
    After reading every single entry to this point(67), I'm afraid that only one person gets a passing grade.
    B-Rant, congrats!

    The rest of all y'all fail MTBR Ethics 101 -

    Blaming Mr. Chlouber, the DA, the course or anything or anyone else?

    What about personal integrity? Personal responsibility?

    Is this what you are teaching your own children?
    God (s) help us if it is.....


    Personally, I was sickened by the actions of these two women. Sure, I can empathize on the one hand in a way -- she was sick, she couldn't get an entry, etc. but, there is NO excuse for their actions. They directly harmed other women in the race, the race itself and ALL cyclists - racers and recreationalists alike. They deserve everything that they have coming. They are adults and took caclulated actions. I can only speculate as to their pyschological state - i.e., narcissitic, sociopathic, etc.

    That's bad enough - but, to see one after another of you (excepting B-Rant, of course) excusing their actions to varying degree, is MORE appalling than the actions of these two women.

    Ranting and wailing about what is happening to those two?
    Felony or misdemeanor - I could care less. Too bad so sad. Hope that all works out. Whatever.

    Racing under someone else's name? Beating the ID check? Racing in an older age category? Standing on the podium? Accepting an award and the accolades - when you did not even ride? Months go by.....

    What part of this aren't you all getting?

    I KNOW what they are capable of -- but, what are all of you capable of?


    You know, something just occured to me - I could just ask you all one simple question -

    If it was your daughter that was knocked off the podium by these two, what would you say to her?


    Good luck to all of us -- cuz we certainly need it.
    Don'y hurt your arm, there loki... it's a tough twist to pat yourself on the back like that.

    I recommend you re-read things, but maybe you should do some remedial reading comprehension first. Not every post said this was too big a deal or they should get off scott free.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    I'm here to post in this very important thread.
    You know... I try to keep at least 95% of my posts here completely inane. I heard if you don't say something serious once in a while you get banned.

  90. #90
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    The MTBR flip flop

    In last weeks epic BigGaloot thread.... People were going to turn over the photos and the thread to the authorities and prosecute to the fullest extent. There were those that in not so many words said that they would KILL him under the make my day law. I thought people were getting a little too worked up about that. To me it was just some stupid photos of a trail that a guy walked on some private property to take. Was it wrong, YES, but I can't believe that people would waste my tax payer dollars going after this guy and possibly RUIN or END his life over something so silly. I'm never going to Idaho Springs again, boycott!

    This week, some women admit to fraudulently taking part in a PRIVATE event. They did this with full disclosure when they entered the race that the entry is non transferable and if you do this and get caught the sheriff will be called. That's what happened. Now the poor criminals are victims in all this, they could have worked it out on their own without involving the authorities and wasting my tax dollars, blah blah blah.

    Seems simple to me in either case.
    If it was my land, I call the cops and let them deal with it.
    If it was my race, I call the cops and let them deal with it.

    MTBR says:
    Poaching private land and taking internet photos = shootable offense
    Poaching a private event and stealing another persons huge moment in their life = no big deal[/QUOTE]


    Ok, I guess I'd be one of the ones called out on that. I didn't want him prosecuted, but I did feel that it was wrong & that he should take down the pics.

    He broke a law, violated someone's property, took pics of someone's house, told people where it was, and told people to come ride on their property. Being as I live right nearly & would prefer that he not come to my house & do the same... I'm pretty opinionated that this is pretty out of line.

    The girls broke a rule in a stupid race. (one that pretends to be a mtn bike race, but really isn't which makes this rule even less important to my offbeat sense of morals...) She has had her life torn apart in an economic time when it is harder than ever to find another job & has lost a position with a respected outreach program in the valley.

    I guess I think that these two issues are a bit out of whack as to how they should be & are punished.

    I'm with thump's way of dealing with this...
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by web
    But wait, as someone pointed out earlier, CTS "scalps" race entries for some ridiculous amount already. So the idea that they are keeping people from charging exorbitant amounts for race spots is old news, done that.
    CTS does not "scalp" more is added to the package for the person buying the spot. The training camp and all the info givin to them by CTS. "Scalping" is selling the same thing for a higher price...

  92. #92
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    Wurd up...

    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    I'm here to post in this very important thread.

    For the most valuable input so far...
    MY dog can lick YOUR dog!

  93. #93
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    Looks like I'm not the only one that tried this! I tried to slip Lance a 20 spot if he'd register under my name
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    To all those who want maximum punishment for these two ladies.

    What you are missing here is Ken Chlouber, a former Colorado Senator, has decided to use his influence to have the DA press criminal federal impersonation charges against the two women, a class 6 felony, minimum sentencing is 1 year in prison. This is a race for weekend warriors, thereís no prize money, this ainít the super bowl weíre talking about here.

    Ken Chlouber could have simply accepted the girls apology, collected the award, banned the offenders, held a ceremony for the other racer, and moved on with life. Instead, he choose to basically damage them in a way that is way out of proposition with theyíre behavior, and b/c heís rich, a political crony, and a promenade member of the community, has gotten the local governmentís backing. This is big money and bad government at itís worst.

    I think it's fairly obvious that the local DA is easily influenced by power and money up in summit county. Here lies the real problem. This windy maneuver is simply an act of intimidation on these two racers, and I assume ment to send a message to next years racers of "irritate a former Senator and he'll call up the court system and have you charged with a trumped up felony charge, oh and that charge will ruin you finically, forever". The law and logic will hopefully step in by the end and these charges will be pleated down to likely nothing when it's said and done, but the damage is already done and jobs have already been lost.

    Do you think if the race we less high profile the DA would even have cared? Or do you think the county clerk would whip out their imagery typewriter, taken down the story in invisible paper, and told the organizers there's no criminal recourse in a the braking of a private organizations rules? Civil breach of contract, could be, but not criminal, and defiantly not a felony.

    These two girls could forever be putting the felon mark on their resumes, could never be able to work with children, and one has currently lost her job over the whole affair (sheís a teacher in Vail). Life for these to ladies could forever be screwed, for what, a belt buckle?

    The other ladies that should have podium don't seem to cross over the matter, their not causing any stink. The only reason to make this much of a splash is for the Kenís own ego.

    I think this entire situation is disgusting. Itís a shame that something as joyful and innocent as riding a bike has gotten wrapped up with with a nasty dude like this. I will not be spending any money at this event to make Ken one cent richer. I don't think I'll even stop in Leadville again. I might accidentally step on someone's toe, get charged with assault and battery, and spend a year in jail.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDS123
    To all those who want maximum punishment for these two ladies.

    What you are missing here is Ken Chlouber, a former Colorado Senator, has decided to use his influence to have the DA press criminal federal impersonation charges against the two women, a class 6 felony, minimum sentencing is 1 year in prison. This is a race for weekend warriors, thereís no prize money, this ainít the super bowl weíre talking about here.

    Ken Chlouber could have simply accepted the girls apology, collected the award, banned the offenders, held a ceremony for the other racer, and moved on with life. Instead, he choose to basically damage them in a way that is way out of proposition with theyíre behavior, and b/c heís rich, a political crony, and a promenade member of the community, has gotten the local governmentís backing. This is big money and bad government at itís worst.

    I think it's fairly obvious that the local DA is easily influenced by power and money up in summit county. Here lies the real problem. This windy maneuver is simply an act of intimidation on these two racers, and I assume ment to send a message to next years racers of "irritate a former Senator and he'll call up the court system and have you charged with a trumped up felony charge, oh and that charge will ruin you finically, forever". The law and logic will hopefully step in by the end and these charges will be pleated down to likely nothing when it's said and done, but the damage is already done and jobs have already been lost.

    Do you think if the race we less high profile the DA would even have cared? Or do you think the county clerk would whip out their imagery typewriter, taken down the story in invisible paper, and told the organizers there's no criminal recourse in a the braking of a private organizations rules? Civil breach of contract, could be, but not criminal, and defiantly not a felony.

    These two girls could forever be putting the felon mark on their resumes, could never be able to work with children, and one has currently lost her job over the whole affair (sheís a teacher in Vail). Life for these to ladies could forever be screwed, for what, a belt buckle?

    The other ladies that should have podium don't seem to cross over the matter, their not causing any stink. The only reason to make this much of a splash is for the Kenís own ego.

    I think this entire situation is disgusting. Itís a shame that something as joyful and innocent as riding a bike has gotten wrapped up with with a nasty dude like this. I will not be spending any money at this event to make Ken one cent richer. I don't think I'll even stop in Leadville again. I might accidentally step on someone's toe, get charged with assault and battery, and spend a year in jail.
    Dude, the mental asylum is right down the road! I suggest you check in for a nice long stay!

  96. #96
    learning2rde
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyncStar
    Dude, the mental asylum is right down the road! I suggest you check in for a nice long stay!
    I am guessing you don't agree with this guy, and also had to belittle him on a public forum, which makes you a complete buttf**k in my book. (Thought I would employ tactics you understand.) Hopefully I never get the chance to meet you.
    Brian Lehfeldt
    Fort Collins, CO
    PS- with your logic, anyone with common sense will have a "nice long stay" in the mental asylum. wooo hooo!

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankrum
    I am guessing you don't agree with this guy, and also had to belittle him on a public forum, which makes you a complete buttf**k in my book. (Thought I would employ tactics you understand.) Hopefully I never get the chance to meet you.
    Brian Lehfeldt
    Fort Collins, CO
    PS- with your logic, anyone with common sense will have a "nice long stay" in the mental asylum. wooo hooo!
    Lighten up, Francis.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankrum
    I am guessing you don't agree with this guy, and also had to belittle him on a public forum, which makes you a complete buttf**k in my book. (Thought I would employ tactics you understand.) Hopefully I never get the chance to meet you.
    Brian Lehfeldt
    Fort Collins, CO
    PS- with your logic, anyone with common sense will have a "nice long stay" in the mental asylum. wooo hooo!
    i'm 99.9% sure mr lyncstar was being sarcastic, since it was such a well-put-together post.

    If it was your daughter that was knocked off the podium by these two, what would you say to her?
    don't get bent out of shape over a belt buckle.

    and you were probably still 200+ positions and 2+ hours away from winning the thing. so no biggie.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankrum
    I am guessing you don't agree with this guy, and also had to belittle him on a public forum, which makes you a complete buttf**k in my book. (Thought I would employ tactics you understand.) Hopefully I never get the chance to meet you.
    Brian Lehfeldt
    Fort Collins, CO
    PS- with your logic, anyone with common sense will have a "nice long stay" in the mental asylum. wooo hooo!
    And everyone on here thinks that a class 6 Felony is an overreaction . . . . holy lunatic . . .

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