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  1. #1
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    TUTF -- Apex Realignment

    Hey all --

    Kyle Henley here -- a biker representative to the JeffCo Trails Use Task Force and former COMBA board member. Wanted to just put some information out there for everyone before next week's TUTF meeting, which is Tuesday, May 25. One of the key topics up for discussion will be the re-alignment/new trails at Apex. These are very big changes that are happening at Apex, and they're going to be implemented on an accelerated timeline.

    Wanted to let folks know what's going on and to get feedback from the mtb community in advance of the meeting. I and many of the other TUTF folks from all user groups had a chance to walk these proposed trails a few weeks ago with Open Space staff.

    As controversial as all the changes are and have been at Apex, I'll just make a few opening comments -- JCOS is adding new trail and doing it very quickly. Hats off to them for taking that step. I, for one, am very excited about the realignment of Apex above Enchanted Forest, which is listed below as Trail Alignment 4. It's going to be a beautiful piece of trial that will really add to aesthetics of the park. It should be a blast to ride, too. See details and maps below. Completion dates are tentative as communicated by JCOS staff. I listed some thoughts on the alignments, but they are based on MY OPINION ONLY and don't reflect the position of any organization.

    Please IM me with any comments about this so I can bring them to the TUTF and JCOS staff next week. Thanks.

    TRAIL ALIGNMENT 4:TO BE COMPLETED JUNE 4, 2010. Major re-route of Apex Trail above the current Enchanted Forest junction. A stretch of Apex Trail west of the junction will be abandoned and rehabed. A new trail junction will be established east of the current junction at the bridge. The new piece of Apex Trail rolls through some nice terrain and has an option that connects to Sluicebox at, by my count, the sixth switchback.

    • SOME THOUGHTS: This is just a gorgeous stretch of trail through some interesting terrain. You get some great views of the Apex drainage and surrounding foothills. It eliminates folks from being forced to ride lower Sluicebox, which is fairly technical, on days when the lower Apex Trail is uphill only. This will be a rocking XC trail. I can't wait to ride it. This alignment, however, I think, pretty much ends downhilling and shuttling at Apex, even on days when directional riding restrictions are not in place. It includes some sustained climbs, though not particularly steep ones, that will make Apex less desirable from that perspective. This may be a moot point, though, because JCOS is making significant changes to other aspects of the Apex Trail to slow downhill speeds at numerous spots. I'm not making a judgment either way, but JCOS has made it very clear they want shuttling to end at Apex and they'll be taking multiple steps on that front.


    TRAIL ALIGNMENT 1: TO BE COMPLETED JULY 5, 2010.This is a new uphill-only directional trail that connects lower Apex Trail to Pick 'N' Sledge. This will be a nice, gradual climb that gives all users the opportunity to avoid the Apex gut.

    • SOME THOUGHTS: This was one of the ideas in the originial COMBA proposal, which I supported, to separate user groups in terms of their speed of travel. It will give folks a nice, non-technical option to get up to PNS. I have mixed feelins about it, though. Just IMHO, but I'm not convinced it will get used much because it will be hot and treeless in the summer, and it just won't be as aesthetically pleasing as walking/riding up the lower reaches of Apex, with the nice tree canopy and running water, to access the current PNS junction. We'll see.


    TRAIL ALIGNMENT 4


    TRAIL ALIGNMENT 1

  2. #2
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    Kyle,

    Thanks for posting this! Looks great to me. I think it will definitely add some great riding options to the park. The new trail on the upper part of the trail system was news to me...but it looks fun! Are they adding any other trail user regulations to the new ones?

    R

  3. #3
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    So we have until June 4th to taste some Apex Shuttle action? I've never done it so doing it before it becomes a thing of the past might make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zzsean
    So we have until June 4th to taste some Apex Shuttle action? I've never done it so doing it before it becomes a thing of the past might make sense.
    I think it's fair to say that you missed the point.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporterkyle
    I think it's fair to say that you missed the point.
    Don't mind him, Kyle... he's just a sarcastic Aussie taking the piss!

    And thanks for posting this, honestly with all of the controversy at Apex these proposed changes look pretty darn good. If these re-routes work to end shuttling and user speed conflicts, do you think there is a possibility that JCOS will re-examine the odd/even day policy for mountain bike restrictions? Ideally, getting unrestricted access back to our user group should be our ultimate goal, IMO.
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  6. #6
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    Thanks for the update Kyle, and the progress in the midst of a ton of emotions and controversy. Glad you are on TUFT. Agree with your comments on the Apex gut.

    As was expected by COMBA and much of this board, the Apex restrictions have definitely created more bike activity on CG this season, including more shuttling. Everyone is using good etiquette and is maybe a bit more friendly.

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    The only thing I would add is some changes to the end of enchanted forest. WHere the the trail is eroding way on the side slope. I figure if you are going to make all these changes you might as well fix that too.

    Looks good though. I especially like the reoute near enchanted forest. It was definetly a blind spot. You will have more visiblity with the reroute.

    Erik

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    Quote Originally Posted by Full Trucker
    Don't mind him, Kyle... he's just a sarcastic Aussie taking the piss!

    And thanks for posting this, honestly with all of the controversy at Apex these proposed changes look pretty darn good. If these re-routes work to end shuttling and user speed conflicts, do you think there is a possibility that JCOS will re-examine the odd/even day policy for mountain bike restrictions? Ideally, getting unrestricted access back to our user group should be our ultimate goal, IMO.
    Bringing reason and thought to an Apex thread? We don't need your type here.

  9. #9
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    And what's with the new speed regulator on the lower main trail (alongside the Heritage Square access road)?
    I don't remember this being mentioned before - are there more of them planned?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by moosehead
    As was expected by COMBA and much of this board, the Apex restrictions have definitely created more bike activity on CG this season, including more shuttling. Everyone is using good etiquette and is maybe a bit more friendly.
    Would agree with that. I've ridden Chimney quite a bit this spring and have seen a noticable uptick in the full-face crowd, but you're right, they've all been pretty good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bedell99
    The only thing I would add is some changes to the end of enchanted forest. WHere the the trail is eroding way on the side slope. I figure if you are going to make all these changes you might as well fix that too.
    Good point.


    I bet the ower of the house/property in trail alignment 4 will be THRILLED with the new trail!!

    Does JCOS need volunteer crew, or do they have it covered?

    Edit - I have also noticed a couple previously technical places, where over time people had made easier alternatives, the easier alternative is now working itself into being the main route, with the old technical main route being reclaimed by "mother earth"! We need to keep riding the old route, so it stays part of the trail. This is part of the Apex trail between Sluice and PNS.
    Kim Fredrick had mentioned this type of thing happening in a meeting or 2 previously.
    Old Codger

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    And what's with the new speed regulator on the lower main trail (alongside the Heritage Square access road)? I don't remember this being mentioned before - are there more of them planned?
    Yup. As I understand it, they're putting one up top, too, though the exact location is still TBA. This is part of the "other" steps JCOS will be taking to regulate speed at Apex. They're also looking at putting in traffic calming devices for lack of a better term (similar to the strategically placed rocks on Creekside at the bottom of LOB) at multiple points on Apex Trail. There will also be quite a bit of increased signage.

    It was really interesting to walk Apex, something I admit that I rarely do, with JCOS folks. A) Kim Fredericks and his team are great. They really care about the park and giving all users a killer experience. B) It certainly was good perspective, and I'd encourage other regular Apex riders to do it. Through that experience, it was clear that Lower Apex east of Sluicebox junction is not a good place for any users to be together at the same time, and it's really the crux of the Apex conflict in my mind. It's super narrow, steep, there's legit not enough trail space for any passing and a couple of nasty blind corners. Because there's limited place for widening the trail, I don't think the alternating days will be dropped at any time in the near future, even if the other measures prove successful and are well received.
    Last edited by Reporterkyle; 05-17-2010 at 10:48 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad andy!
    Good point.


    I bet the ower of the house/property in trail alignment 4 will be THRILLED!!

    Does JCOS need volunteer crew, or do they have it covered?
    That is a consideration. JCOS staff said concerns by the property owner could affect the trail alignment where it meets Sluicebox. Haven't heard anything lately on that though.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporterkyle
    Through that experience, it was clear that Lower Apex east of Sluicebox junction is not a good place for any users to be together at the same time, and it's really the crux of the Apex conflict in my mind. It's super narrow, steep, there's legit not enough trail space for any passing and a couple of nasty blind corners. Because there's limited place for widening the trail, I don't think the alternating days will be dropped at any time in the near future, even if the other measures prove successful and are well recieved.
    Interesting to see that although they initially disregarded these parts of the alternative proposals, they're now incorporating them, along with alternating days. Which I still don't see as solving anything except for making the squeaky minority happy.

    And I before E except after C. hehe
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  15. #15
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    Well, there goes my business... IE Shuttles will be coming to a close. Did they think of the fact that I'll be jobless now? With a broken foot, the only thing I can contribute is to offer up shuttles for people... GOSH...

    Well, with that non-sense jibberish I just spewed, we will have an alternative trail and features that is UNI-DIRECTIONAL for all of you. Apex? Pffft... whatever... Flow trail at GBP? Hells yeah. The Bi-directional may have some trail features too... don't discount that.

    We're working hard to keep the mtn biking fun despite what Jeffco is doing.

    BTW, the re-routes look okay with me. In my opinion, its something new. Also, looks as if the new re-route will get dryer quicker during those snowy months.
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  16. #16
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    Looks like I may end up riding Apex again sometimes.
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  17. #17
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    I had a chance to walk most of the alignments and chat with Kim Frederick. For the most part, I think they'll be good, and ditto on the kudos for Kim and their staff.

    Here's my take -

    1. I'm totally psyched about the "upper" new trail. I think it'll be a fun new route, will add an additional "mini-loop" to the park, and will help resolve some of the conflict issues while adding trail and options for everyone. The drawback is that it will load up the north loop (Grubstake, etc.) with more people so I can't have it to myself!

    2. I think the front-side trail will get more use than you think. I see that as the "parents-in-town-go-for-a-hike loop", plus a rideable way for less techy folks to access the good stuff. (Same drawback as above). I can see the hot in the summer part, but if its that bad, all of Apex is hot. I would like to see it meander more to the north to make it new and interesting, but I understand the slope and terrain constraints.

    3. I get another mile of singletrack close to home.

    4. Alternating days/fence "chicanes" ---- whatever. It takes me roughly 10 seconds of thinking to figure out what fun route to take on any given day, and I'm not going to let a speed bump bother me.

    Cheers.

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    You said it Scrambler!
    I am holding out hope that most bikers will just stay away on the odd days, and we will still have the northern stuff to ourselves.
    I did see a rider climbing EF tonight.
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    I still can't believe that 4 old ladies caused this mess.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    I still can't believe that 4 old ladies caused this mess.
    Dude. Have you ever been around old ladies? They can pretty much make ANYTHING happen.

  21. #21
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    Rode up Chimney and then "down" Apex last night with Bad Andy! And by "down" I mean it was an odd day so we had to climb up Sluicebox and do that whole thing... and I rather enjoyed it to be honest. There's great trail over there that I have barely ridden because I'm always riding up the gut and down Enchanted.

    Having looked at the terrain of TA#4 and the proposed obliterated section, I confirmed my earlier statement of "Looks good!" It looks like TA#4 will need some sort of bridge to cross a drainage? True, not true? It doesn't look like it climbs high enough to go around a significant ditch...

    As for TA#1, what's the reasoning behind the tiny little switchbacked section just before it meets up with Pick-n-Sledge? Is it necessary due to terrain, or designed to reduce speed and conflicts? I didn't really take a good look at that aspect last night, it was getting dark, but it just seems the new trail could easily skip the 3rd and 4th little switchers and intersect right at the 1st switchback on P-n-S as you climb it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Full Trucker
    As for TA#1, what's the reasoning behind the tiny little switchbacked section just before it meets up with Pick-n-Sledge? Is it necessary due to terrain, or designed to reduce speed and conflicts? I didn't really take a good look at that aspect last night, it was getting dark, but it just seems the new trail could easily skip the 3rd and 4th little switchers and intersect right at the 1st switchback on P-n-S as you climb it?
    JCOS wants it there as a speed-reduction mechanism. I agree with your assessment that it would be better placed near the switchback and several TUTF members made that suggestion to Kim. I don't know if it was enough to get them to reconsider. Will probably know more next week.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporterkyle
    JCOS wants it there as a speed-reduction mechanism. I agree with your assessment that it would be better placed near the switchback and several TUTF members made that suggestion to Kim. I don't know if it was enough to get them to reconsider. Will probably know more next week.
    As tight as those switchers look like they COULD be, it seems like they could be really prone to some serious erosion, even if logged/waterbarred. There's a switchback coming out of a creek crossing at M/W that has about a foot of dead air below the log. With all the sun baking that front trail and keeping it dry and dusty, I fear it would suffer the same fate?

    At any rate, thanks for posting all this info, you seem like you have a good head on your shoulders and are pushing for the right stuff to happen with JCOS. I know you are skeptical that odd/even restrictions will be lifted in the near future, but if you ever get a sense that it would or could be entertained by JCOS definitely keep the boards in the loop!

    Cheers!
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    It has started...

    So between last saturday and yesterday, JCOS built the first speed device. They added a "chicane" at the bottom of the trail. They aren't messing around.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    I still can't believe that 4 old ladies caused this mess.
    I can. My wife has a MS in urban planning and done several neighborhood research projects, she said the most vocal people in local government are usually the older retired folks. Maybe they more time or maybe they just have nothing better to do than complain about young people.

    Sara went to a neighborhood meeting for us here in Denver. She said it was entirely old people complaining. The biggest demographic that doesn't particulate in local government is the younger, under 30, crowd. I vote in every election even if its just for a school board.

    *Oh and I agree with a lot of you, if this reduces trail conflicts I may ride Apex again.
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithnu
    I can. My wife has a MS in urban planning and done several neighborhood research projects, she said the most vocal people in local government are usually the older retired folks. Maybe they more time or maybe they just have nothing better to do than complain about young people.
    You know how they pull this off? Old people can act COMPLETELY irrational and people will let it slide. It's true.

  27. #27
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    My vocabulary just grew by one word....

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    So between last saturday and yesterday, JCOS built the first speed device. They added a "chicane" at the bottom of the trail. They aren't messing around.
    Umm, yeah, that's what I said back in post #9.

    Oh, and what trail conflicts? I ride Apex all the time, and have no more incidents there than anywhere else, which is to say minimal to none. If your experience is different, then maybe the problem is you.
    Last edited by dbabuser; 05-20-2010 at 01:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    You know how they pull this off? Old people can act COMPLETELY irrational and people will let it slide. It's true.
    I've been to enough city council meetings in enough different states to confirm this as an absolute universal truth

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter
    I've been to enough city council meetings in enough different states to confirm this as an absolute universal truth

    And here I thought it was an anomoly from the limited meetings I've been to...
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    Oh, and what trail conflicts? I ride Apex all the time, and have no more incidents there than anywhere else, which is to say minimal to none. If your experience is different, then maybe you're the problem is you.
    Agreed. I've never been a fan of what their doing. But a few bad apples...paying for the sins of others...etc....

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    Sounds like some decent things are happening - I thank you Kyle for your efforts. My one bit of input would be that I hope they make the new trail(s) fun and interesting -- not just a path blazed across the hillside.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clay
    My vocabulary just grew by one word....
    Now try to work it into a conversation at the bar!

  34. #34
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    Here is what it looks like....





    ***

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by scar




    ***
    LAME! Throw some berms in there and it'll work though. I understand that is a fast section of trail but it's not blind, I can't imagine many conflicts really happen there.

  36. #36
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    I see a huge wall ride coming.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gobstopper
    LAME! Throw some berms in there and it'll work though. I understand that is a fast section of trail but it's not blind, I can't imagine many conflicts really happen there.
    I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
    I have seen many a biker blast by others (bikers or hikers) at or near that point.
    Can't hurt.
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  38. #38
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    It would be really nice if it could be rehabilitated back to singletrack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gobstopper
    LAME! Throw some berms in there and it'll work though. I understand that is a fast section of trail but it's not blind, I can't imagine many conflicts really happen there.
    Don't worry...there's at least one more of these planned "somewhere" up the trail. Maybe a gate, maybe a rock "chicane", maybe punji sticks...

    R

  40. #40
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    How do we get Jeffco to install some trash cans along the trails for the hikers to put their dogs "turd packages" in??? Seriously, if you are going to take the time to pick up your dog's crap, PACK IT OUT!!!! I am so tired of seeing these little bags of sh*t sitting on the side of the trail.


    Sorry, rant over.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by scar
    How do we get Jeffco to install some trash cans along the trails for the hikers to put their dogs "turd packages" in??? Seriously, if you are going to take the time to pick up your dog's crap, PACK IT OUT!!!! I am so tired of seeing these little bags of sh*t sitting on the side of the trail.


    Sorry, rant over.
    Absolutely could not agree more! Can't believe people are THAT damned lazy...

  42. #42
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    They should ban dogs.
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  43. #43
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    They should ban stupid.
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  44. #44
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    Yeah, this is awesome. Apex was getting a little old but now I'll be riding it a lot more like the old days.

    Glad this will largely eliminate the shuttlers too. I have no problem with downhillers but they don't mix well with the user demographics at Apex.

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    Rode Apex last night. I have a couple of points. Scoped out the new section in the middle it looks like it will be nice.

    I was wondering if their are going to be trail days or is JCOS going to build all the new trails. I would like to be part of trail day considering Apex is most local trail and I can give my suggestions while we build the trail, instead of just ranting online.

    Also I was wondering if they where going to clean up some of the sections that are eroding, most notably the bottom of the wall and the end of enchanted forest. Those 2 sections need some serious help right now.

    Other than that, I'm excited. I have definetly seen less shuttling.

    One last thing. Saw my first rattler on pick n slegde last night and it was big'un. I initally thought it was a bull snake, but it was rattler so be careful where you put your feet when yielding to people downhill.

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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    Absolutely could not agree more! Can't believe people are THAT damned lazy...
    I think most of this is folks packaging the s**t and setting it by the trail to pick up on the way back. I've walked with many people who do this. i suppose you can argue that they should carry the bag with them from the time they package it till the time the deposit it, but for the most part I don't think they are just abandoning it.

  47. #47
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    It's not just Apex, JeffCo, etc., but I see too many of those turd bags without passing people w/ dogs. They do seem to get picked up eventually, by someone, or maybe it's the wind or the wildlife dispersing them away from the trails?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    Dude. Have you ever been around old ladies? They can pretty much make ANYTHING happen.
    Yes they can, like these 2
    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wn1r1jb4--k&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wn1r1jb4--k&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
    Last edited by ghawk; 05-30-2010 at 03:53 AM.

  49. #49
    Pivot Rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghawk
    Yes they can, like these 2
    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wn1r1jb4--k&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wn1r1jb4--k&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    Too funny! -- Thanks! that was a good Sunday morning laff!
    Dirt Divas website l Twitter: @thedirtdivas l Facebook

  50. #50
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    Whats the contour interval on these maps?

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