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  1. #1
    tiny rider
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    A tiny Birthday Present

    In order to properly celebrate my 40th birthday, I felt like having a mid-life crisis and buying myself something different.

    Ever since 36ers started popping up on the 29er board, I've had an itch that needed to be scratched. And for more than a year, my bike-to-be has been named 'tiny'. Time to get scratching....




    Walt (waltworks.com) finished up the frame in time for my actual B-day. He's written up a bit about the build here:
    http://waltworks.blogspot.com/2009/01/beast-stirs.html and
    http://waltworks.blogspot.com/2009/0...-of-story.html

    The wheels took longer. The hubs were out till after the holidays, and then the rear spokes were too long and too short (depending on lacing). I ended up ordering a custom cut set of 12g spokes from http://www.hiwheel.com/. Larry, at Mountain High Cyclery in Loveland, put them all together for me.

    But yesterday, it came together for the first time.



    I spun it out last night for a couple hours on some of the paved urban trails around Denver. Next, some dirt

    Right now, tiny is a 2x1 (the wrong rear cassette/cog carrier limits me to the 18t that came with the hub for now), but I'll try to slip 5 or 6 cogs on the rear Profile SS hub soon.

    The front hub is a 135mm Paul hub.

    The frame (with sliders, BB and headset) weighs in at a reasonable 3549g, and the fork a solid 1415g. I haven't stood on a scale yet with the entire package, though, for the curious.

  2. #2
    Your retarded
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    Someday I will also own a bike proportional to my body size. I'm jealous of this beast for that reason.
    A trail thatís too difficult wouldnít exist because itíd never be used. But, trails can exist thatíre too difficult for you.

  3. #3
    tiny rider
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    Nickle,

    I'm 6' 4" for perspective.

    One of the funniest things was comparing the wheel to a built-up Pugsley in Larry's shop.


  4. #4
    Your retarded
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartographer
    I'm 6' 4" for perspective.
    Oh, no way. Me too. That means a 36er will make me look... normal?

    You look like you're 5'6" in the above pic.
    A trail thatís too difficult wouldnít exist because itíd never be used. But, trails can exist thatíre too difficult for you.

  5. #5
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    That's really cool, I love it! I would love to get something like that built up for myself some day. I can imagine the big expenses would be in the tires, rims, spokes and frame... Out of curiosity, how tall are you?

  6. #6
    Chronic 1st-timer
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    I want!



    + welcome to the 40s..........like a good wine!
    Trailwrecker at large

  7. #7
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    Nice!!!!

  8. #8
    Recovering Weight Weenie
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    Make sure you get some trail pics! Would love to see it in action. The bike looks way more normal with an adult (6' + ) on it.

  9. #9
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    Sweet!

    Glad the wheels are finally together! Stop by so I can take a test ride, eh?

    -Walt

  10. #10
    Team Inflexible
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    Love It!

  11. #11
    Dr Gadget is IN
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    Very nice bike - but then, it is a WaltWorks.

    135mm hubs front & rear?

    Head angle/fork offset?
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  12. #12
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    Very cool, I dig the color too!

  13. #13
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    Congratulations on seeing your dream realized. Now go dispel misconceptions about bigger wheel bikes, if it pleases you that is.
    One pedal goes down
    the other goes up
    bike goes forward
    smile

    Bryan Keener
    HPV research since 1984

  14. #14
    tiny rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    Very nice bike - but then, it is a WaltWorks.

    135mm hubs front & rear?

    Head angle/fork offset?

    135mm front and rear. It should help strengthen the wheels a bit with more triangulation. They felt nice and solid on my cruise last night. The rims are quite beefy as well.

    The head angle on my last spreadsheet is 71* and the fork rake 75mm for 79mm of trail.

    Frankly, I don't know much about the details of the geometry. I just coerced Walt into building me something that was perfect for XC, enduro and techy rides, comfortable and flickable, vertically compliant and horizontally stiff. He filled the tubes with luminiferous aether as well for free!

  15. #15
    tiny rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keener
    Congratulations on seeing your dream realized. Now go dispel misconceptions about bigger wheel bikes, if it pleases you that is.
    Thanks! You and Ben Witt have been a constant source of inspiration to give this a go.

  16. #16
    Heads up Flyboy!!
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    Awesome bike! The main reason I went 29er is the fact I don't look like I'm on a kids bike anymore. 6 ft even.

  17. #17
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    Nice! I was talking with Larry the other day and he said he was building some 36er wheels. Good stuff, I rode James @ Black Sheeps and it was BADASS. Me wants a steel one too
    Front Range Forum Moderator

  18. #18
    crd
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartographer
    One of the funniest things was comparing the wheel to a built-up Pugsley in Larry's shop.
    Wow! That is a huge wheel!

  19. #19
    hehe ...you said "member"
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    Curious ... At 6'7" how big do I need to go with wheel size to make me look normal?

    Rhetorical, of course ... I've resigned myself to the fact that "normal" is beyond any concept of worldly reach for me years ago.
    ďMe fail english? Thats unpossible.Ē - Matt Groening

  20. #20
    Feeding your addiction
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    Couple more pics I took of it when Marcus was here finishing the bike up.

    Larry
    Mountain High Cyclery
    larry@mtnhighcyclery.com
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity". - Dave Barry

  21. #21
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    Biker? I don't even know her.

  22. #22
    tiny rider
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    Follow the link hiwheel.com and you can get a pennyfarthing for your own!

    Driving to Boulder today with tiny on the roof confirmed one issue I was somewhat concerned with. The wind cross-section of the 36er is huge. I could feel the car getting pushed around significantly more than usual

  23. #23
    My leg feels funny
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartographer
    Follow the link hiwheel.com and you can get a pennyfarthing for your own!

    Driving to Boulder today with tiny on the roof confirmed one issue I was somewhat concerned with. The wind cross-section of the 36er is huge. I could feel the car getting pushed around significantly more than usual
    Just cover it with canvas and use it like a sail

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartographer
    Driving to Boulder today with tiny on the roof confirmed one issue I was somewhat concerned with. The wind cross-section of the 36er is huge. I could feel the car getting pushed around significantly more than usual

    Its the bikes way of asking you to ride it not and not to put it on top of the smart car.

    ATMHO , I find riding into the wind at the front 1/4 harder than right in front w/the 36.
    My 36 gets to be inside the van, I thought it a good way to go after the bike rack we had was dropping bikes and would not fit a 36 any way.
    One pedal goes down
    the other goes up
    bike goes forward
    smile

    Bryan Keener
    HPV research since 1984

  25. #25
    Goofing off?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SylentK







    With that head tube angle, I wonder how it pins the corners?

  26. #26
    tiny rider
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    I took tiny on a couple rides to Lair of the Bear this weekend. It was a bit of a learning experience, but (particularly today) quite fun. I went early, so didn't have to deal with many others on the trail, but there were some icy patches. Yesterday they were ridable, but today they were just a bit slicker and I decided to walk.


    My current gearing, pretty much by random chance, is a bit more than 10% lower than what I run on my 26" SS. I thought that it would be too low, but with the extra weight it turned out to be about right. Other than that, though, I was able to ride it pretty much like normal.

    The point from another 36er thread, about not looking too closely at the front wheel and just steering normally, is spot on. There is one particular left turn which has a nice drop-off and is pretty rocky where I looked at the wheel and it seemed to stick way over the lip; but of course the contact patch was probably 12" from the edge

    The big grins, however, kick in when the trail starts down. LotB has stretches of flowy, buff singletrack.



    The giant wheels really smooth the ride. They don't drop into some of the stutter-bump sized depressions, and they just eat up smaller rocks. It's still a rigid bike, though, so some of the bigger holes sent chatter up to the bars. I have to remember how to ride rigid; I've had suspension forks since the early 90s

    One last dirty pic:
    Last edited by cartographer; 03-01-2009 at 02:14 PM.

  27. #27
    Rolling
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    Wow, what a cool ride. Congrats.

  28. #28
    tiny rider
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    I just got a ride in at Heil Ranch before the wind got too bad.

    All I can say is that I've rarely had such perverse pleasure on a bike as I did zipping around the rocky trails on a 40+lb rigid bike today.

  29. #29
    ..ouch
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    So.. gotta ask (not bashing), besides more proportional looks for your super tall freaks, what's the advantage of 36s? I "get" the 29er argument, but 36? seriously?

  30. #30
    tiny rider
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    I can't quite tell you why this idea bit me.

    To some extent, I thought it would suit my style of riding since I don't know better than to bash into (and hopefully over) things. I thought it would feel smooth and stable. I hoped it would handle snow reasonably well. And I thought it would be fun to just spin around the city, if nothing else.

    So far, it's been meeting my expectations. I actually think I was faster today at Heil on tiny than on my FS 29er except for a very few particularly rocky descending stretches. Certainly I felt like I could just roll along without getting hung up on all the smaller rocks. The front wheel is so solid once it's spun up that I can relax my hands on the bars quite a bit and still hold my line.

    But I imagine that there will be very few places where I will actually be faster. For the most part it should just be fun. I can't wait to ride Kenosha Pass with the leaves turning and the big wheels just humming along.

    On my first ride along the South Platte paved trail last Tuesday night, I ended up covering ~35 miles, just because. And I currently spend more time than I should figuring out when and where I can ride next. What more could you want from a bike?

  31. #31
    ..ouch
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartographer
    For the most part it should just be fun.
    Now that I can respect.. Enjoy man, you've certainly got yourself a unique ride.

  32. #32
    Recovering Weight Weenie
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    That bike is RAD!

    So much to be had. I wonder why the headtube is so short considering Walt was spec'ing this for this rider?

  33. #33
    tiny rider
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    Padre,

    If the head tube was any taller there wouldn't be room for all those spacers.

    Actually, I haven't trimmed the steerer yet, and will probably play with some lower bar positions. I will likely have some spacers in there when I'm done, but don't know the final configuration.

    Walt was also working to maximize standover, and it's plenty for me. I do appreciate the clearance.

  34. #34
    Recovering Weight Weenie
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartographer
    Padre,

    If the head tube was any taller there wouldn't be room for all those spacers.

    Actually, I haven't trimmed the steerer yet, and will probably play with some lower bar positions. I will likely have some spacers in there when I'm done, but don't know the final configuration.

    Walt was also working to maximize standover, and it's plenty for me. I do appreciate the clearance.
    Sounds good.

    Your ride is the most "normal" looking 36er yet... Looks like a pure hoot to ride.

  35. #35
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    I would love to have someone build me up a 36er frame 5 or 10 years from now, but I have a feeling it doesn't make sense for someone who's about 5'11.5" tall... Maybe with a 1.5" headtube for reduced stack height?

  36. #36
    Really I am that slow
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    Dude

    You have to come to fuita and let me ride that beast!

    Man maybe next year I'll have to pony up for Walt to build me one?
    Read my BLOG!

    just a guy who loves bikes and exploring

  37. #37
    tiny rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowerThenSnot
    You have to come to fuita and let me ride that beast!

    Man maybe next year I'll have to pony up for Walt to build me one?
    I'd love too. And White Rim beckons.

    STS, you need to give it a workout next time you're in town

    I imagine you could twist Walt's arm enough to get him to make another (though I certainly don't speak for him). He might even have a list of tweaks he's itching to try now that he actually could hold the wheels to build around.

  38. #38
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    Oh, you did SO well ordering tiny!

    If anything, it looks like a small bike. A small huge bike. Even you might have handled a bigger one.

    If it's riding so decently for you already, with those triple beefy motorcycle spec tires, that says a lot about the concept of having that largest wheels that will allow you to ride it as a bike.

    I SO want to ride your bike!!!! I'm 6'4" too.

  39. #39
    tiny rider
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    I took another ride at Heil Ranch today, heading up Wapiti, around Wild Turkey and then down Picture Rock trail to Lyons (and back).



    I stopped in at Redstone Cyclery to answer the all important question: How much does tiny weigh?

    40.21 lbs

    We also took off the front wheel and threw it on the scale. It came in at 8.86 lbs.

    Once again, the big wheels made a very significant difference in how the bike handles the rocky trail.

    A significant fraction of the trail is covered with rocks protruding from the track.



    Here, you can just roll along and hardly slow at all; the rolling resistance is almost nil. You still get some shock through the bars.

    Today's addition included some more chunky sections. I didn't stop to get many pictures, but here is an illustrative example (though there are significantly worse).



    My bike handling skills aren't the best, so I often lose my line on the first obstacle I encounter and then get hung up on later ones when I stuff my wheel into a rock/root/squirrel. With 36ers, I could just roll my way out of these situations. I was going slow, but the low gearing and wide bars gave me the leverage to dig myself out of every hole I jumped in to. Pretty cool.

    A couple other notes:

    I was running ~25psi front and ~30 rear. I felt the front rim strike once when I nailed a square-edged rock, but the tire/tube held (slimed 29er tube). Otherwise those pressures feel pretty comfy.

    The wheels/fork/tires feel nice and solid, even as I'm bashing over rocks and rattling my teeth trying to brake.

    After 20+ miles of rocky trail today, I was feeling pretty worked. Maybe time to switch to buffer trails

  40. #40
    Dr Gadget is IN
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    How 'bout them wheels?

    Quote Originally Posted by cartographer
    How much does tiny weigh?
    40.21 lbs
    We also took off the front wheel and threw it on the scale. It came in at 8.86 lbs.

    I was running ~25psi front and ~30 rear. I felt the front rim strike once when I nailed a square-edged rock, but the tire/tube held (slimed 29er tube). Otherwise those pressures feel pretty comfy.

    The wheels/fork/tires feel nice and solid, even as I'm bashing over rocks and rattling my teeth trying to brake.
    So - your wheels are
    Nimbus Stealth 36h rims
    Nimbus Nightrider tires
    29er tubes/slimed
    12g spokes (3mm)
    135mm Profile Racing rear hub
    135mm Paul Fhub front hub

    And I note the qoute: "The wheels/fork/tires feel nice and solid"

    Excellent data point, thank you.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  41. #41
    tiny rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester
    So - your wheels are
    Nimbus Stealth 36h rims
    Nimbus Nightrider tires
    29er tubes/slimed
    12g spokes (3mm)
    135mm Profile Racing rear hub
    135mm Paul Fhub front hub

    And I note the qoute: "The wheels/fork/tires feel nice and solid"

    Excellent data point, thank you.
    Actually, the front is using 14g spokes which seem to be plenty solid with the 135 front hub.

    I would probably do the same on the back (even with the slightly narrower flange width of the SS 135mm rear hub); I ended up having to custom order the 12g spokes after having the wheel prepped for larger gauge spokes and then discovering that the Coker ones didn't quite fit. I believe that Ben Witt is using 14g with no issues.

    NB These are .105 12g spokes, rather than the even larger .120 12g spokes. Don't ask me why there are two sizes of 12g.

    I'd also note that the rims are the 'pro' (I think that was the designation) which has machined sidewalls and, more importantly, eyelets.

    I look forward to seeing your build.
    Last edited by cartographer; 03-13-2009 at 03:00 PM.

  42. #42
    tiny rider
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    I took a quick ride at Devil's Backbone while dropping the bike off to get the rear axle sorted.

    Once again, the big wheels do a really surprising job taming the rougher trail. I lose traction a few times, though, with the relatively smooth tread pattern. If that becomes a consistant problem, I'll need to get carving, or try the new Coker tread that Keener has been posting about.



    I still can't get myself to try some of the biggest features on the trail. The BB clears, though, so I should be able to roll this.



    I tried my first attempt at video with the little point-and-shoot. There aren't a lot of opportunities to do that without a tripod or, gasp, another human to run things.

    <object width="400" height="300"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=3771263&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=&amp;fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=3771263&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=&amp;fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="300"></embed></object><br /><a href="http://vimeo.com/3771263">Devil's Backbone</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1459924">tiny rider</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.

  43. #43
    Your retarded
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartographer
    I still can't get myself to try some of the biggest features on the trail. The BB clears, though, so I should be able to roll this.

    If you let me, I'll roll it. Serious.
    A trail thatís too difficult wouldnít exist because itíd never be used. But, trails can exist thatíre too difficult for you.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartographer
    I still can't get myself to try some of the biggest features on the trail. The BB clears, though, so I should be able to roll this.
    .
    You can do it! Just keep off the brakes as you're rolling...

  45. #45
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    I just got here. The thing seems to roll and crawl over everything! We should see a "normal" bike attempt the same trail bits to truly appreciate of course, but I'm way impressed!

  46. #46
    tiny rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    I just got here. The thing seems to roll and crawl over everything! We should see a "normal" bike attempt the same trail bits to truly appreciate of course, but I'm way impressed!
    Actually, I'm sure people ride this with their cross bikes. They just have to work at it harder than I do =) I'm just hoping to show that a 36er is a 'real' mountain bike, even if you probably shouldn't huck cliffs with it.

    On the news front, I just picked tiny up after my trip and it's sporting a full complement of gears now! Thanks, Larry. I can't wait to get out (maybe into some snow if I'm lucky) in the new configuration.



    2x6
    22/34 with 12-14-17-21-26-32 in the back.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartographer
    Actually, I'm sure people ride this with their cross bikes. They just have to work at it harder than I do =) I'm just hoping to show that a 36er is a 'real' mountain bike, even if you probably shouldn't huck cliffs with it.

    On the news front, I just picked tiny up after my trip and it's sporting a full complement of gears now! Thanks, Larry. I can't wait to get out (maybe into some snow if I'm lucky) in the new configuration.

    2x6
    22/34 with 12-14-17-21-26-32 in the back.
    I saw this thing in person today and it is BIG! He tried to get me to ride it out back, but I declined, as i don't need any more toys at the moment. Nice guy, with a HUGE rig!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by single track mind
    I saw this thing in person today and it is BIG! He tried to get me to ride it out back, but I declined, as i don't need any more toys at the moment. Nice guy, with a HUGE rig!
    Holy hell! I just read my post and I'm not sure if I'm on a cycling forum or a gay porn forum. Moderators, please HELP!

  49. #49
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    [note to self] stop posting after the first vodka tonic [/note to self]

  50. #50
    tiny rider
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    One last set of impressions

    I got a chance to ride with Walt (the builder of tiny's frame and fork) at Hall Ranch yesterday. His typically articulate thoughts are here:
    http://waltworks.blogspot.com/2009/04/36-36-36.html

    Based on my driving to the trailhead, I think Walt can attest to my lack of focus yesterday. However, I found that I was able to ride up every single obstacle that I have ever cleaned, as well as one that I've always been stymied by, when I was on the 36er. There are still 2 outstanding puzzles for me to work out, as well as the bits where Walt was riding that I didn't try yet.. But I can confidently say that huge wheels make technical riding of that type notably easier.


    (Thanks Walt for the picture)

    Coming down was really fun too. The places where the difference between tiny and other bikes I've ridden was most marked was on all the rockier sections above and below the rock garden. I was often taking rockier lines just because. I'm looking forward to trying the stream-bed at the base of Belcher, though I don't know if the polished rocks will slap me around as usual, or if I'll finally be able to ride it.

    I nailed my rims several times as I was putting the pressure down, but the wheels still seem solid and true. Walt thinks I should try tubeless, and that sounds pretty attractive.

    This past Sunday I managed to get a few miles of riding in the snow.


    I didn't have another bike to compare directly to, so my conclusions are very tentative. However, I do believe that I was able to ride quite a bit more than I would have with my 29er. I was cutting down through the 2-4 inches of fresh to the snow or whatever was below, and the big contact patch was getting just enough traction. When I came home, I had ~10 psi in the front, and ~17 in the rear. I think there's room to go lower in the back, at least, for better grip.



    I feel like I have a good set of initial impressions now. I'll be happy to let you give tiny a try if I see you on the trails (and am not alreay late getting home, again ).
    Last edited by cartographer; 04-10-2009 at 09:25 AM.

  51. #51
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    How hard is it to get the "big wheels turning", slower acceleration?
    Or does it not really matter because you are having so much fun.
    Momentum is your friend, mega-momentum just keeps going and going......

  52. #52
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    Walt described it as 'molasses'. But it really doesn't matter, in part because you can steamroll anything even at low speeds as you spin up, and in part because you're having so much fun.

    Initially I thought the momentum would be the biggest factor. And that's what provides the feeling of railing berms on everything. But the angle of attack aspect makes even the ludicrously slow-speed capabilities impressive.

  53. #53
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    hate to bring this thread back from the dead, but and interested in what you think now that you have had it longer. Do you still ride it regularly, or is just a conversation piece now? Still think its a viable option in the future?

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountaingoatepics
    Awesome bike! The main reason I went 29er is the fact I don't look like I'm on a kids bike anymore. 6 ft even.
    Steve Peat, Nathan Rennie, both tall guys, don't look at all like kids on 26 wheels.

    But, 36 wheels damn!! Looks really fun. I wonder how you get proper tension when lacing the wheels.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmadams13
    hate to bring this thread back from the dead, but and interested in what you think now that you have had it longer. Do you still ride it regularly, or is just a conversation piece now? Still think its a viable option in the future?
    Great timing! Monday's snow got the wheels turning so I packed tiny up in the car for a little mid-day ride yesterday. This was the first time I've been out on the 36er for a few months, due to a mix of tight schedules, some mechanical issues, muddy trails, etc. But it's still the bike I reach for when I can squeeze in something other than a lunch-time grind up Flagstaff.

    Conditions were sweet:


    The bike is still really fun to ride; there are probably even some conditions where it's close to ideal.

    I rode with enduro-nut Pivvay and swapped rides for a bit to check out his Fatback. He was clearly suffering on the big wheels.


    I look forward to many more rides in the future.

  56. #56
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    Nice work Marcus! Did you put a Hammerschmidt on that? This is Chris. I rode with you and Walt this fall and you were having front shifting and hub issues. I saw you flying down Flagstaff the other week. Let me know when you are going out for rides in Boulder. I can usually break away for a ride.

  57. #57
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    Hi Chris!

    I've got a functional rear hub now (Hadley) and did put on a HS, as the front etype wasn't making me happy. Walt's custom ISCG mount was, of course, perfect. I haven't had a bunch of time on either, but so far I'm liking the changes. The HS was making some odd noises towards the end of Tuesday's ride, but it might just be an issue with the cold; it still shifted.

    Email forthcoming...

  58. #58
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    Hi Guys,
    have a look at the new thread about wheels and tires for 36ers as we're trying to find solutions and maybe convince a manufacturer to build lighter rims and tires here :
    http://forums.mtbr.com/650b-69er-new...on-733027.html
    :-)

  59. #59
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    DirtySixer Bikes, California
    Big 32er & 36er bikes for tall riders
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  60. #60
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    I've already voted for a pair.

    I rode up Mt. Falcon a couple weeks ago, and was definitely struggling for traction a few times on the dry trails, roots and rocks. Still, fun was had...

    I look forward to seeing your build...

  61. #61
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    Hi Marcus, and thanks again for you patience responding to my interview.
    I received the rims (48 holes) and the tires (Nightrider) and the built should start soon
    Mine will be cross touring bike (or should I say in french "randonneur" with a commandant cousteau accent) !
    stay tuned !
    DirtySixer Bikes, California
    Big 32er & 36er bikes for tall riders
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