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Thread: Taken out!

  1. #1
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    Taken out!

    So a friend of mine riding a poplar trail was taken out by another mtbiker. Spring Creek trail runs from the high school in steamboat to Dry Lake campground, about 4 miles uphill. In the last few year it's become popular with armor clad riders who shuttle to the top for downhill runs. My friend was riding up, rang his bell to warn the downhill rider and still got smashed. He is looking at a trashed Crossmax wheel, front Fox fork and possibly a damaged head tube on his Moots 29er. If the frame is damaged, my friend is looking at a $5000+ loss from this "accident".

    Wondering what the forum's thought are on this type of bike on bike crash? Is the downhilling rider liable for damages to my friends rig? Time for a Lawyer?

    I would suggest that if a rider is so out of control that they cannot avoid a crash with other trail users they should be responsible for the damages from their recklessness.

    What do you think?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    I would suggest that if a rider is so out of control that they cannot avoid a crash with other trail users they should be responsible for the damages from their recklessness.
    As someone who rides mostly DH... I say yes.

    I'm not in favor of law suits in general, but if someone is that reckless, they need to learn a lesson. (and at very least pay for what they damaged.)
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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    Are you making this up because of all the Strava nonsense lately?

    If it's true, then I'd say the downhill rider should pay up. Still, if I saw some idiot riding like he owned the place, I'd get out of the way and yell, not just stay on the trail.

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    Sorry for being dumb, anyone know how I can start a new thread. says I can but I cant see new thread button.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cajunrider View Post
    Sorry for being dumb, anyone know how I can start a new thread. says I can but I cant see new thread button.
    Make 4 more posts.

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    thanks, 1 down 3 more to go

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    Not making this up, he has pics if his trashed Moots on Facebook.

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    Spring Creek is the sh!++iest trail to run DH. You guys thing Buff Creek is all marbles, it doesn't even hold a candle to Spring Creek!
    The sad thing is, that bozo w/ the DH bike...it's prob the most valuable thing he owns and trying to collect would be like getting blood out of a turnip!
    I def think the cops/sheriff should be involved, if for no other reason than to perhaps make him sell the DH rig and keep that d!ckh3ad off the mountain, and bike, for a while.

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    Does he know who the DH rider is?

    First step would be to get a tally of the damage and contact the DH rider. When he denies (and probably freaks out) any responsibility, then it's time to either check out small claims or speak with a lawyer. And maybe even talk to the rangers out there; there could be more than just civil liability involved, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    Not making this up, he has pics if his trashed Moots on Facebook.
    Does your bud know who plow him...the dumbass shuttle twat?

    How's about upping some pics?

  11. #11
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    The book of faces has the same story tonight with this picture. No idea if true or not, but guessing it had to be a forceful impact with something (if not a head on collision then what?) to cause that kind of damage.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

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    That's Corey's Moots.

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    I run trails too and see this....most mtbers ...perhaps more than 9 out of 10 ...understand responsibility and will either yield or at least apologize/acknowledge an uphill RoW. I understand gravity, so I get the hell out of the way when necessary. However, there are occasions where it is obvious the rider did not care one bit who they plowed over.....and I've seen some top pro mtbers here in Durango act like asses on heavy and multi use trails.

    It's a tort like any other....don't let bike culture play into it. If someone acts without regard for others they certainly take on liability.

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    The DH rider now says its half my friends fault for riding a dual direction trail, and will only cover 1/2 the damages. LAME!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    The DH rider now says its half my friends fault for riding a dual direction trail, and will only cover 1/2 the damages. LAME!
    Sounds a call to the sheriff is in order? Get the Sandy's involved; have your buddy ask for their help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    The DH rider now says its half my friends fault for riding a dual direction trail, and will only cover 1/2 the damages. LAME!
    You really think your buddy will even see the 1/2 the guy is claiming he'll cover without getting the law involved??? Not likely. Now that he has likely waited, he'll have a much harder time getting anything/ proving what happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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    SSPD already weighed in and said its a civil matter, no charges or report.

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    Yes, but has your friend gone in and sworn out a complaint for assault?

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    Gaddammit, that PD is REALLY just the biggest POS on the planet, good for friggin' nothing but speeding tix and DUIs huh?!

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    I'm not so sure that SSPD gives speeding tickets, but DUI's are an easy charge in this town. What else is anyone doing out past 10pm besides drinking?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    I'm not so sure that SSPD gives speeding tickets, but DUI's are an easy charge in this town. What else is anyone doing out past 10pm besides drinking?
    HAHAHA...
    I don't know what kind of trustafari you are, but I worked... waiting tables, night audit, IT service calls for the hotel.

    So will PD not even take a complaint like Skiahh suggested? What about the sheriff's...or is Spring Creek w/in city limits so the sheriff's also won't touch it? If they don't I'd give Steamboat Pilot a call and let the public know just how they're being "served and protected".

    Edit: don't know if you can sense it, but I have nothing but contempt for the entire governmental structure in that town. The whole lot of them got off the friggin' short-bus when they pulled into town!

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    Maybe the DHer should sue the Moots guy for jacking up his Strava. Maybe the Moots guy should sue Strava.

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    cops don't care they have better things to do than mediate between two mtbrs

    the only way your going to get any money or get the cops involved is to have personal injury and be carted off by the ambulance thats how it works, so always remember to get hurt if you want money

    as far as shuttling I thought it was just some front range "problem" well sure enough shuttling is getting pretty popular in breckenridge. and wow what a mess it is. you've got a bunch of tourons with their heads up their butt wandering along a trail and here comes some mtbrs full speed with no concern for anyone else and guess what... some gaper is gonna get hurt

    at least in breck we have tons of tax dollars to waste so enough complaints and someone will be out there patroling the trail, no joke it will happen

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    Bummer. I've gotten close to being taken out a few times. I avoid those trails now...especially on weekends.

    As it's been said, a lot of these kids have every penny they have invested in that bike.

    Rule #1: Never sue poor people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Gaddammit, that PD is REALLY just the biggest POS on the planet, good for friggin' nothing but speeding tix and DUIs huh?!
    What is he supposed to do? There are no laws governing trails. From his perspective, you have two guys that ran into each othe on a trail. Was there criminal negligence?

    I think the DHer should have to pay for the damages. But the bigger picture here is who was at fault? Both had the right to be there, one should've yielded to the other, but missed or didnt. In the whole scheme of things, the sherrif has bigger crimes to solve ( speeding tix not one of them, lol).


    So does one write legislation to inact laws on trails? God I hope not. However, if the local authority isn't going to care about public safety on trails, then poaching wilderness trails is what I should do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    The DH rider now says its half my friends fault for riding a dual direction trail, and will only cover 1/2 the damages. LAME!
    Wow. WTF does that mean? Doesn't that mean normal yield rules apply? It's not a single direction downhill only trail so what is he trying to say? He most certainly should be held liable and I'd be doing everything in my power and getting everyone possible involved to make sure he has to fork up every last cent, even if I had to personally pester every damn law enforcement outfit in that town and file 15 police reports. I'd also be giving my insurance company his information. Insurance companies are usually pretty good about going after people pretty relentlessly cause they don't want to pay. If any opportunity comes up to get the guy to admit fault, record it. Probably too late now, but always record the conversations after any altercation if you can. Most people with a smartphone can do this pretty inconspicuously. It can be great evidence to prove your case. All you need is him to admit he was involved and if he admits fault, even better.

    The sad thing is if he ran over an elderly hiker it would probably be front page news across all of Colorado and there would be cries of outrage for the guy's head. He'd be facing assault and reckless endangerment charges. He wouldn't even have a bike anymore.
    Gotta get up to get down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure View Post
    What is he supposed to do? There are no laws governing trails. From his perspective, you have two guys that ran into each othe on a trail. Was there criminal negligence?

    I think the DHer should have to pay for the damages. But the bigger picture here is who was at fault? Both had the right to be there, one should've yielded to the other, but missed or didnt. In the whole scheme of things, the sherrif has bigger crimes to solve ( speeding tix not one of them, lol).


    So does one write legislation to inact laws on trails? God I hope not. However, if the local authority isn't going to care about public safety on trails, then poaching wilderness trails is what I should do.
    It's pretty simple really. Judging by the damage (and in turn impact force) you can clearly see the one rider was going way too fast for the trail/conditions and was endangering other trail users. Rangers could easily get involved and press for charges. As I said, if he ran over a hiker, it would be front page news.
    Gotta get up to get down.
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    This sounds like an excellent candidate for the 'People's Court" (if the dude doesn't agree to pay everything)

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    Maybe the DHer should sue the Moots guy for jacking up his Strava. Maybe the Moots guy should sue Strava.
    Good points, if the DHer yelled "STRAVA!!" I believe he has the right of way, anytime, any direction.

  30. #30
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    DH'ing Spring Creek is one step above DH'ing the Highline Canal. Geez

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    I remember the good ol' days........a little fista cuffs......possibly a beatdown.....end of story.

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    Did I read this right. Some dude on a Moots 29er going uphill got slammed by a DHer on a Huffy. And the Moots owner expects the Huffy dude to pay up. I say Huffy dude hand over your sweet ride for full $5K. payment owed. Done deal!

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    this sounds like a case for Judge Judy

    Yo sbsbiker - your bud should submit his case to a higher power than mtbr-CO FR forum - try Judge Judy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Maestro View Post
    I remember the good ol' days........a little fista cuffs......possibly a beatdown.....end of story.
    No, think again, your memory is quite fuzzy due to the smoky haze that permeated your surroundings during all waking hours. I am not a fan of the litte icons, so I will come out and say that I mean this with no disrespect. In fact, it could be taken as a compliment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Maestro View Post
    I remember the good ol' days........a little fista cuffs......possibly a beatdown.....end of story.
    Well, except while that might make you feel better at the moment the next day you're still out a $5k bike and now have sore hands. (and face and ribs...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaeckerX1 View Post
    It's pretty simple really. Judging by the damage (and in turn impact force) you can clearly see the one rider was going way too fast for the trail/conditions and was endangering other trail users. Rangers could easily get involved and press for charges. As I said, if he ran over a hiker, it would be front page news.
    I completely understand your point. And I agree with you. However, what state statute did he break? Law enforcement won't get involved unless there are laws that are broken. I understand ethics, yielding, right of way, but the cops see this as two people bumping each other on a trail.

    This is clearly a civil case, cut and dry, easy. But if someone tries to make a bigger deal out of this publicly, bikers will be the ones that lose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure View Post
    Law enforcement won't get involved unless there are laws that are broken.
    I'm not a lawyer or an LEO, but I'd have to think there's something covering negligent destruction of property.

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    The old geezer here is flabbergasted that kids now are actually getting rides to the top just to ride down. I hear that their moms sometimes even drive them. No wonder we have a fat problem. Whoa!

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    The biggest problem I have is that the downhilling rider admits to fault but will only agree to pay for 1/2 of the damages. This lack of owning up, and taking responsibility for ALL of the damage caused by the crash is totally irresponsible. That rider knows what needs to be done to correct this incident's damage. His lack of personal responsibility encorages legal action, that, as IndecentEx said, will just be bad for cyclists as a whole. If my friend goes to lawyers, he's seen as a litigious jerk, and we all could be hit with bad press or kneejerk restriction from the USFS, if not, he is stuck with 1/2 of a huge repair bill for something that wasn't his fault. Total BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    The old geezer here is flabbergasted that kids now are actually getting rides to the top just to ride down. I hear that their moms sometimes even drive them. No wonder we have a fat problem. Whoa!
    I'm confused. What do mom's shuttling kids to the top have to do with anything of this topic? The rider (weather in DH gear that shuttled or an XC rider that had previously done 10k ft of climbing) was going downhill and didn't yield.

    If I could get fat kids off the couch and get them on bikes, I'd shuttle them myself.
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  41. #41
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    I truly feel bad for your friend. His bike is damaged and probably lost some trail time.
    I has hit by a full armored downhill rider as well. Luckily my damage was around $120 for tacoed front wheel and rotor. Missed a week of quality ride time. Of course he did not pay for it. He was lot bigger than I was....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidmantis View Post
    Well, except while that might make you feel better at the moment the next day you're still out a $5k bike and now have sore hands. (and face and ribs...)
    And the loser guy all armored up would, no doubt, run to the local PD station and file charges against you.

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    Sorry ID, but it has everything to do with it. Lack of respect for snakes, lizards, flowers, anything you might see on the way up, even geezers. Lack of respect for the people who put in time to make the trail which your actions are sure to close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    Sorry ID, but it has everything to do with it. Lack of respect for snakes, lizards, flowers, anything you might see on the way up, even geezers. Lack of respect for the people who put in time to make the trail which your actions are sure to close.
    Because these things you mention ONLY occur with a kid who's mom shuttled him to the top?

    Oddly enough... of all the downhill rider kids I've met... I have yet to see that "fat problem" you speak of, how strange.


    Respecting the flowers is now the problem though... I thought it was the fat kids, looking at your last post. You're confusing me.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    Sorry ID, but it has everything to do with it. Lack of respect for snakes, lizards, flowers, anything you might see on the way up, even geezers. Lack of respect for the people who put in time to make the trail which your actions are sure to close.
    Who said the trail was closing? Who doesn't have respect? The downhiller must have been looking at lizards and flowers, then no wonder he didn't yield. Sue the snakes.
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    iE (my mistake) I've seen many plumpster tykes coming down but few, if any, going up. So go figure. I've never seen any on a trail crew, have you?

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    There is some dumb S#&t being said in this thread. Damn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    iE (my mistake) I've seen many plumpster tykes coming down but few, if any, going up. So go figure. I've never seen any on a trail crew, have you?
    Resorts aside... how do you think DH trails get built? I can't say I see a TON of the youngest group doing work, but it's not that uncommon either. Work ethic shows itself in different ways in different people. One of the times I was riding with some of the younger Mojo kids & a couple of them were talking about the cross-training they do specifically to better their DH ability, it gave me a new respect for some of the younger kids.

    The trail crews for XC trails though... you'll not likely see a gaggle of armor clad kids carrying rakes & shovels, but that's often just not the kind of thing that gets them interested in doing the work.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    iE (my mistake) I've seen many plumpster tykes coming down but few, if any, going up. So go figure. I've never seen any on a trail crew, have you?
    Guessing that I've probably put in more trail time than most, I'd say I've seen more kids out there building than adults. In fact, based on all the trail days I've either been to or hosted, people under 35 outnumber the people over 35. Very rarely do I see anyone over 50.

    The Golden Bike Park volunteer crew had a huge amount of kids under 20. Still do.

    Sorry, sounds like you still have a lot of hatred towards the younger generation. Instead of complaining, show them how to build trail!
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    No, IE, I don't harbor animosity for youngster mtb'ers. I am awestruck by some climbing I've seen. Out of saddle, dancing on the pedals, cleaning rock piles, and pushing on and over the top. Inspiring! Belcher Hill, Mt. Falcon, NTM Cottonwood Canyon are some of the XC trails around here which demand cardio fitness and where these kids excel. However, when I see their mothers drop them off at Boettcher Mansion and they bomb down Chimney Gulch taking bikers and hikers down (this has happened) then I get upset. You know why? They get more chances to do harm with multiple runs and they should go to a DH specific trail, say Winter Park or Keystone. Let their mothers drive them there or to the Golden Bike Park which you say they built. XC is for XC. That means up and down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    No, IE, I don't harbor animosity for youngster mtb'ers. I am awestruck by some climbing I've seen. Out of saddle, dancing on the pedals, cleaning rock piles, and pushing on and over the top. Inspiring! Belcher Hill, Mt. Falcon, NTM Cottonwood Canyon are some of the XC trails around here which demand cardio fitness and where these kids excel. However, when I see their mothers drop them off at Boettcher Mansion and they bomb down Chimney Gulch taking bikers and hikers down (this has happened) then I get upset. You know why? They get more chances to do harm with multiple runs and they should go to a DH specific trail, say Winter Park or Keystone. Let their mothers drive them there or to the Golden Bike Park which you say they built. XC is for XC. That means up and down.
    Stop with the stereotypes. Not all old people think the younger generations are to blame. You're making old people look bad.

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    Hopefully the headtube isn't jacked. I would shoot for at least getting the DH rider to cover the cost of the fork. Maybe hit up Mavic and see if they have a wheel they could give you a deal on for a crash replacement? Wishfull thinking, but worth a try. If the frame is jacked, I'd definitely be looking for a new frame and fork from that guy.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    XC is for XC. That means up and down.
    Bike trails are for riding bikes (in a respectful & controlled manner). The only trails I've seen a sign on that specify that they're only for one direction or another are C. Cone, Apex, and the resorts... that aside... go ride bikes & have fun.

    Now if they can't ride appropriately... knock their asses off the hill. DH is great, but EVERYONE, including stravasholes & DH "kids"... ALL need to get their sh** together & learn to be part of the community & ride with the same ethics the rest of us use.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife View Post
    ...everyone, including stravasholes & dh "kids"... All need to get their sh** together & learn to be part of the community & ride with the same ethics the rest of us use.
    ^+1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    ^+1
    Oh great... the resident "dootchbag" agrees with me... let me edit that post!!
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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    bc life gets it! over and out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife View Post
    Oh great... the resident "dootchbag" agrees with me... let me edit that post!!
    It's "nozzle" you n00b!

  58. #58
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    Downhill rider needs to pay up. Small claims court might be a good place to get this sorted out. You don't need a lawyer, and the paperwork is dead-easy. In general, it's illegal for someone to trash your stuff.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    bc life gets it! over and out.
    Well... I'm not agreeing with you "per se", I'm totally fine with someone riding DH on any trail, whether they pedaled up or not.

    BUT... if you can't control yourself, (and that doesn't, to me, mean going slow... just knowing what is in front of you) then you've got no business on a mixed use trail whether they're wearing spandex screaming strava or wearing DH gear smack talking their buddy about how slow he is. (like Paully the dootchnozzle, don't get behind that dude... it'll take all day to get down the hill...)


    Btw... agreed 100% with tobygadd, spot on.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife View Post
    BUT... if you can't control yourself, (and that doesn't, to me, mean going slow... just knowing what is in front of you) then you've got no business on a mixed use trail whether they're wearing spandex screaming strava or wearing DH gear smack talking their buddy about how slow he is. (like Paully the dootchnozzle, don't get behind that dude... it'll take all day to get down the hill...)
    Yeah, but if I'm in DH gear yelling Strava, by default I'm faster than you

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    However, when I see their mothers drop them off at Boettcher Mansion and they bomb down Chimney Gulch taking bikers and hikers down (this has happened) then I get upset.
    Moms? I've seen more than moms drop kids off. Trucks of guys, gals, riders of all ages. I've dropped off mom's to do DH. Its no illegal and they go slow and under control. No different than any XC rider going down the hill.

    I would argue that xc riders (up and down riders) make up for 98% of the riders. Of those, I'd say that 30% aren't yielding to anyone. That's right, not shuttlers. We've had more problems with XC riders than shuttlers. I've seen the Sheriff read the riot act to two boulder XC guys that didn't yield to a single person.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer
    You know why? They get more chances to do harm with multiple runs and they should go to a DH specific trail, say Winter Park or Keystone.
    Wrong answer. See above. More incidents have been filed against mtn bikers, not necessarily shuttling ones. Feel free to contact OSAC for their opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer
    Let their mothers drive them there or to the Golden Bike Park which you say they built. XC is for XC. That means up and down.
    The mom's do take them to the Golden Bike Park, and Valmont, and other places. Moms and kids aren't the problem, responsible riders not yielding properly is. It doesn't matter if you're shuttling or not, any rider going downhill has a specific set of responsibilities; however, that aren't always obvious to riders in general (Education is a serious problem in Jeffco).

    The issue, as it sounds, is you have issue with entitlement. You have animosity towards anyone that don't earn their turns, especially kids that have mom take them up there. I'd argue that shuttled kids make up less than .5% of the riders on places like Chimney Gulch. The real problem are with geezers that have no tolerance for others.

    If you want to solve the problem, please help us build more trails for all users. The only way to keep crowds off any given trail is to create more. Sounds like you're not up for solving the problem, but rather just pointing fingers and complaining. That's okay, this is what the internet is for... hiding behind a random identity and blaming others. Sweet.
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    Shuttle moms?

    Is that like soccer moms, but better?
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripper roo View Post
    as far as shuttling I thought it was just some front range "problem" well sure enough shuttling is getting pretty popular in breckenridge.
    There have been non resort shuttle trails in Summit County for more than 10 years. I was just talking to a friend last weekend that has been DH riding in Summit since the 90s, He went to check a few out that he knows haven't been used in years. And sure enough saw a group riding them. So in a way you are correct that it is getting popular (again in this case).

    Only issue here is some of them are full on illegal, not private land or anything. So good luck up there in Breck.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    Shuttle moms?

    Is that like soccer moms, but better?


    If I were a kid, I'd love to have a shuttle mom.
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  65. #65
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    I googled shuttle moms.

    LULz

    We need a Mom shuttle service in Golden.
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure View Post
    I googled shuttle moms.

    LULz

    We need a Mom shuttle service in Golden.
    Since I'm at work I will save that google search until later. Internet Rule # 34.

  67. #67
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    I would say regardless of if it's a total armored up shuttle monkey, or lycra clad XC racer, a DH rider who hits an uphill rider should in most circumstances accept responsibility. I'd say the problem is what are the legal alternatives for obtaining satisfaction? I don't know what laws govern this sort of thing. DH yields to uphill is as I've always understood it is a commonly understood guideline rather than law. Even if it's statute in one jurisdiction it might not be in another. I really have no idea but small claims court seems the most likely avenue.

  68. #68
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    I'd love to see this on Judge Judy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    I would say regardless of if it's a total armored up shuttle monkey, or lycra clad XC racer, a DH rider who hits an uphill rider should in most circumstances accept responsibility. I'd say the problem is what are the legal alternatives for obtaining satisfaction? I don't know what laws govern this sort of thing. DH yields to uphill is as I've always understood it is a commonly understood guideline rather than law. Even if it's statute in one jurisdiction it might not be in another. I really have no idea but small claims court seems the most likely avenue.
    Well, considering the similarities in the two sports, this comes to mind:
    Colorado Braking Its Reckless Skiers - New York Times

    Yeah, the article is a bit dated. But AFAIK, prosecutions of reckless skiing has been successful. Wheels or skis, I personally still see enough similarities to pursue the "uphill" rider in the case of collisions on public bi-directional/multiuse trails.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Well, considering the similarities in the two sports, this comes to mind:
    Colorado Braking Its Reckless Skiers - New York Times

    Yeah, the article is a bit dated. But AFAIK, prosecutions of reckless skiing has been successful. Wheels or skis, I personally still see enough similarities to pursue the "uphill" rider in the case of collisions on public bi-directional/multiuse trails.
    Well, ski areas have the Skiers Safety Act to provide some legal framework. As far as I know there is nothing like that for backcountry recreation, at least on Federal land. Some states, counties, or municipalities might have some sort of applicable law.

    It would be interesting to know if there have been similar cases that have gone through the civil court system and how they were resolved.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure View Post
    I'd love to see this on Judge Judy.
    I'll throw in my $.02....and I'll preface this by saying that I don't personally think taking someone to court is always the answer, but when there is obviously someone at fault who refuses to take ownership, it is sometimes the only way.

    A friend of mine was in a similar situation on Green Mountain in Golden. Downhill rider going way to fast for conditions took her out even though she was off her bike, standing on the side of the trail letting him pass with more than adequate space. She was physically injured (broken nose & cheekbone, lacerations on one arm and wrist, soft tissue damage in her back). Her bike had some damage as well.

    The rider who took her out immediately jumped up after the crash and attempted to speed off since he was uninjured. Luckily a guy he was riding with came up on the scene, yelled out to him, and he stopped to come back and face the situation.

    Initially, the 21 yr old guy refused to have any ownership in the event, didn't go with her to the hospital, never called to check up on her, etc. etc.. She spent a night in the ER and 6 months in physical therapy for her back.

    In the end, she retained an attorney and the guy's parents settled out of court for $35k given they were going to pay twice that if it went to court. Her attorney said these cases are pretty "cut-n-dried" in the eyes of the court when they occur on public land.

    So, if this is any indication, it seems that responsibility on the trails can be established and enforced via the almighty Dollar.

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  72. #72
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    We need DH only trails on the front range.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitecrwlr View Post
    We need DH only trails on the front range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure View Post

    If you want to solve the problem, please help us build more trails for all users. The only way to keep crowds off any given trail is to create more. .

  75. #75
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    Doo$hbag is so 2004.

    The new hip term is twatwaffle.

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    Yes, building more trails is wonderful. That, I think, we can all agree on. But when shutting is widespread (moms or otherwise) then the trails will quickly be swamped by DH'ers anyway. Reason: they make many more trips than those of us who grunt up. Don't you agree? Nay, how can you not agree?

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    the trails will quickly be swamped by DH'ers anyway. Reason: they make many more trips than those of us who grunt up. Don't you agree? Nay, how can you not agree?
    Fair enough, DH'ers do get more laps in. But regardless of how you got to the top once you're descending you need to keep it in control on multi-use trails.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithnu View Post
    There have been non resort shuttle trails in Summit County for more than 10 years. I was just talking to a friend last weekend that has been DH riding in Summit since the 90s, He went to check a few out that he knows haven't been used in years. And sure enough saw a group riding them. So in a way you are correct that it is getting popular (again in this case).

    Only issue here is some of them are full on illegal, not private land or anything. So good luck up there in Breck.

    If you're talking about what I think you are those trails go across a patchwork of National Forest, Open Space, and private property. They are all definitely all illegal.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitecrwlr View Post
    We need DH only trails on the front range.
    We have some. Look into the bike parks.
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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    Yes, building more trails is wonderful. That, I think, we can all agree on. But when shutting is widespread (moms or otherwise) then the trails will quickly be swamped by DH'ers anyway. Reason: they make many more trips than those of us who grunt up. Don't you agree? Nay, how can you not agree?
    Well, I rode up Chimney Gulch, twice and descended Apex this week. I counted riders.

    XC Riders (Going up and down): 28
    DH Shuttlers: 0
    DH Shuttling Mom's: 0
    Strav******* XCers: 2

    There were 2 XC Riders that weren't happy about the descent into 5:30 uphill traffic. Both had nice light bikes, had their kits on. I actually have the name of the woman XC Rider (in my Strava) that went around people instead of pull over (most of the time from what I can tell).
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    IE, you are charmed. You were on CG and lucked out that a swarm of DH'ers had not been dropped at the mansion minutes, yes minutes, before you began your ascent.

    Anyway, the geezer does not claim that all climbers are not jerks on the way down. Just as dangerous, just as obnoxious, as shuttlers but harder to a grip on their wrongdoing. When you sag to the top and take down folks who have invested themselves more fully in the outing then that seems to me to be more egregious. Don't you agree?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    IE, you are charmed. You were on CG and lucked out that a swarm of DH'ers had not been dropped at the mansion minutes, yes minutes, before you began your ascent.

    Anyway, the geezer does not claim that all climbers are not jerks on the way down. Just as dangerous, just as obnoxious, as shuttlers but harder to a grip on their wrongdoing. When you sag to the top and take down folks who have invested themselves more fully in the outing then that seems to me to be more egregious. Don't you agree?
    No.

    You are about entitlement and I have the sense of hypocracy awaits around the corner. It is perfectly legal to shuttle trails, however, doing it is frowned upon. Earning your turns is something that some people really enjoy, not all, though. I assume you've never been on a lift in the winter? Most of the skiers I know use lifts, not 'earning their turns'. There are lift access for those that enjoy the downhill, and for that, the resorts do keep those crowds away. Once they close, you'll probably see more 'shuttlers' on the trails. If they're all completely polite, and pull over, then what is the problem? Are you still bitter that they didn't put in the same route you did?

    Don't be bitter. The Shuttlers I've encountered in the past year have been very polite, more-so than the standard rider going downhill. That said, there are a few bad apples. No one will refute that.
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by indecentexposure View Post
    dh shuttling mom's: 0
    Uh...
    FAIL
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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    Wrong analogy! In the ski area venue all traffic is uphill during non operating hours. Similarly, I have no issue with lift-serviced DH biking as it is all DH. And if it isn't then you assume the risk upfront and will be looking out for them coming down..

    IE: I submit that a greater fraction of shuttlers are hazards on our trails as the exciting ride down is the whole game they are playing. As stated previously, multiple runs with even greater hazard is the order. Surely, you can agree?
    Last edited by GoldenGeezer; 07-02-2012 at 05:17 PM.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    Wrong analogy! In the ski area venue all traffic is uphill during operating hours. Similarly, I have no issue with lift-serviced DH biking as it is all DH. And if it isn't then you assume the risk upfront and will be looking out for them coming down..

    IE: I submit that a greater fraction of shuttlers are hazards on our trails as the exciting ride down is the whole game they are playing. As stated previously, multiple runs with even greater hazard is the order. Surely, you can agree?
    No.

    If all riders going down hill properly yield, then what's the problem? How do you know who is shuttling and who rode to the top? If I took up a person that is in cross country garb, and they passed you going downhill, would you know they were shuttled?

    Shear volume is part of the issue. Look at Centennial Cone, the hiker/biker alternating days is a complete failure. You have all the riders on one day complete with same use conflict (head on collisions, etc). 4 people hike the first 2 miles on hiker days. Dispersion is the only way to stop this. Stop pinning it on shuttled people; there just aren't that many.
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  86. #86
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    IE is completely right. I rarely (and I mean ninja rare) see the body armor guys on trails. Almost every time I've had what you could call a user conflict on the trail it's been some guy in full XC racer kit riding me off the trail while trying to get in a hot lap (or maybe one of them Strava KoM thingies ). Just my experience.
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    Just goes to show the cyclists are the worst enemy of cyclists. Either on the road running stop signs, and eroding our respect among drivers, or running ourselves off the trails.

  88. #88
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    So if I catch a Strava-ahole, both on the trail and on line for going off trail and not yielding for uphill riders, do I call them out on line?

    IE
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure View Post
    So if I catch a Strava-ahole, both on the trail and on line for going off trail and not yielding for uphill riders, do I call them out on line?

    IE
    Why not? Isn't that what everyone does? Tell them you're gonna kick their ass too. After all, you're online and behind a computer screen.

    But seriously, I'd say something. Maybe...they're from out of town and just completely clueless on trail etiquette/rules...or...maybe not, but they should at least be notified that they're being a punk. Consider it a PSA. Their response could potentially be something fun to laugh at in any case.
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    She's a very well known rider in the front range. I'm sure she's a polite person, but in this case, she was after Strava points (can be proven). I have 2 friends that she was relatively rude to when she was passing them on the DH.
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    Whew! Please give the 'ol geezer a break. What the hell is a Strava? Should I have one?

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    Wow after reading just a portion of this thread I am embarrassed to call myself a mountainbiker. There are some serious focked attitudes in this sport these days. There was a time some years ago that we all got along as fellow riders. Not now just a bunch of whining "watch out I'm totally downhilling" Jackass attitude jerkoffs out there now. I guess it's time to take up a sport that the jerkoffs haven't infiltrated yet.

    One angery Mudder Focker...
    Last edited by SpinDirt; 07-28-2012 at 11:13 AM.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinDirt View Post
    Wow after reading just a portion of this thread I am embarrassed to call myself a mountainbiker. There are some serious focked attitudes in this sport these days. There was a time some years ago that we all got along as fellow riders. Not now just a bunch of whining "watch out I'm totally downhilling" Jackass attitude jerkoffs out there now. I guess it's time to take up a sport that the jerkoffs haven't infiltrated yet.

    One angery Mudder Focker...
    I'm Mitt Romney and I approve this message.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinDirt View Post
    Wow after reading just a portion of this thread I am embarrassed to call myself a mountainbiker. There are some serious focked attitudes in this sport these days. There was a time some years ago that we all got along as fellow riders. Not now just a bunch of whining "watch out I'm totally downhilling" Jackass attitude jerkoffs out there now. I guess it's time to take up a sport that the jerkoffs haven't infiltrated yet.

    One angery Mudder Focker...
    Ok, one less rider on the trails...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    Ok, one less rider on the trails...
    Hey if you don't agree with the comments it must mean you are one of the jerkoffs I was referring to. And no punks like you aren't going to drive me from the sport I love. And I bet hiding behind this anonymous rep system makes for a big man behind a keyboard.
    Last edited by SpinDirt; 07-15-2012 at 06:20 PM.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinDirt View Post
    Hey if you don't agree with the comments it must mean you are one of the jerkoffs I was referring to. And no punks like you aren't going to drive me from the sport I love. And I bet hiding behind this anonymous rep system makes for a big man behind a keyboard.
    Sorry, should have said; ok, one less rider on the trails, so, the terrorist DHers have won.

    Lighten up. You are anonymous also spin dirt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    Sorry, should have said; ok, one less rider on the trails, so, the terrorist DHers have won.

    Lighten up. You are anonymous also spin dirt.
    It's not even your statements of not agreeing with me that pissed me off. It's these juveniles that negative Rep without signing their name. And signing with a set of initials is chicken sheet also. Knowing all to well that it's a 99% chance that you won't figure out who it is.

    And after reading your last statement it seems you agree with me anyway.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinDirt View Post
    And signing with a set of initials is chicken sheet also. Knowing all to well that it's a 99% chance that you won't figure out who it is.
    Jeesus, I thought it was obvious. - WKD

    Yeah, that was me. I've signed all 5 neg reps I've ever given on this forum , I think.

    You want people to agree with this crap:

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinDirt View Post
    Wow after reading just a portion of this thread I am embarrassed to call myself a mountainbiker. There are some serious focked attitudes in this sport these days. There was a time some years ago that we all got along as fellow riders. Not now just a bunch of whining "watch out I'm totally downhilling" Jackass attitude jerkoffs out there now. I guess it's time to take up a sport that the jerkoffs haven't infiltrated yet.

    One angery Mudder Focker...
    Quote Originally Posted by SpinDirt View Post
    Hey if you don't agree with the comments it must mean you are one of the jerkoffs I was referring to. And no punks like you aren't going to drive me from the sport I love. And I bet hiding behind this anonymous rep system makes for a big man behind a keyboard.
    statement I neg repped in red

    No dude, biking is as fun as you make it. Your anger is the thing stopping you from enjoying it.

    Sincerely,
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    This thread brings it!
    Glad 99% of the trails I ride can't be shuttled. That being said I can't say I've ever had a negative experience w/ someone shuttling, as noted most shittards I've encountered have been your average rider.
    Interesting, eh?
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    Where we should go,
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinDirt View Post
    It's not even your statements of not agreeing with me that pissed me off. It's these juveniles that negative Rep without signing their name. And signing with a set of initials is chicken sheet also. Knowing all to well that it's a 99% chance that you won't figure out who it is.
    This whole "inter net" thing must be a real challenge for you huh?

    It must be the fault of one of those "totally downhilling" types... I'd blame it on them.

    Pretty funny that you're *****ing about people being anonymous on an internet forum where nobody has a clue who you are...

    BCIL. (so you know who I am...)
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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