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  1. #1
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    Speaking of Balls....

    I just read that Michael Ball of "Rock Racing" said that he will start all eight of his riders including Tyler Hamilton, Sevilla and Botero. Its such a joke that every year they reopen the Puerto case just in time for the start of the season. Formally indict these guys or leave them alone. These guys (guilty or not guilty) have served their suspensions and deserve to race. So I say kudos for Ball to stand up to these clowns and say these guys are racing or none of us are racing.

    Just my opinion....
    Last edited by papawheelie; 02-16-2008 at 08:33 PM.

  2. #2
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    what is such a joke is that the dopers all claim they are clean when quite clearly they are not, not just on Rock Racing. They deny it till they are blue in the face then when they are caught turn round and admit it(or not) and expect a second chance. BS. F' em all. and this "Let Levi Ride' campaign is the biggest joke of the lot, I wouldn't trust any of Bruyneel's riders, past, present or future as far as I could throw them...and I've got skinny road cyclist's arms so that wouldn't be very far.

    Michael Ball is an arrogant d!ck...he told his staff to repay 4 months of wages at the end of last season or have no contract this year so Andreau and a team mechanic (there may be more)kept their wages and quit, that's first hand info. Hopefully none of them will end up racing, it's just like when Vino 'quit' the sport...don't let the door hit the needle in your ass!

    just my opinion

  3. #3
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    I agree with what you are saying but the system is flawed. Theres no doubt these guys doped, especially Tyler and I know this second hand. However, the rule states if you are under a formal investigation, you can't race. None of these guys are officially under investigation and the reopening of the Puerto case is strictly directed at Fuentes and his staff, not the riders. People get in trouble with the law everyday but once they've served their time, their given a second chance. Let these guys ride. David Millar is riding.

    this is not my opinion, its fact.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...b08/feb15news3
    Last edited by papawheelie; 02-16-2008 at 08:33 PM.

  4. #4
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    What is the Tour de France going to do without all that excitment that Levi brings to racing? Who else will suck on wheels and refuse to attack for the entire race?

    Cheater or no cheater, the guy's a wheelsucker who's actually proud of the fact that he trains by riding behind his wife's moped.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairylegs
    What is the Tour de France going to do without all that excitment that Levi brings to racing? Who else will suck on wheels and refuse to attack for the entire race?

    Cheater or no cheater, the guy's a wheelsucker who's actually proud of the fact that he trains by riding behind his wife's moped.
    Every pro roadie trains by motorpacing. Your point is?

    If Tyler is banned David Millar should be also. Millar is on the cover of Velonews with the title fresh and clean. What a joke.

  6. #6
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    exactly, motorpacing is standard practice. However, I do agree Levi isn't a very exciting racer but he knows how to get the job done. We all got used to Lance dominating with powerful attacks (yes I think he doped, its naive not to think so). Don't hold your breath for another rider like Lance and the stuff he did. But I wouldn't disgrace Levi without any evidence that he has cheated. I got to meet him at the ToC the first year and he is a genuine nice guy. He pulled into the pits warming up before the final stage and was looking for his team bus. He stopped and started chatting with everyone. Then his aunt who was standing there answered her cell phone and it was him mom calling from a chairlift in Tahoe wishing him good luck. I would like to think he is clean (probably is with how strict things are now) but regardless, he's a good guy.

    I'm just disgusted that AEG won't let the Rock RAcing guys ride because of "reported implications" of links to Puerto. I haven't seen a start list yet but is Contador riding for Astana? he is linked as well so he better not be any start list. ASO is going to simply ruin pro cycling. Who is going to sponsor any team that just might not get an invite to a big race because of a power struggle or political reasons. The victims are the truly clean riders and they still make a fun race to watch. I have a feeling pro mountain bike racing is going to make a big comeback with spectatorship and sponsors (even though it is not immune to the same issues). This would be just fine with me as I am much more of mountain biking fan anyway. Bottom line is I just love to watch racing.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by papawheelie
    I haven't seen a start list yet but is Contador riding for Astana? he is linked as well so he better not be any start list.
    Contador is not riding the ToC.

  8. #8
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    Moderator-

    Dispense with this skinny-tired-spandex-carbon-geek thread. Send it to RoadGeekReview.
    The more I drink, the smarter you get.

  9. #9
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    Motorpacing... anecdotal evidence of lance's likely doping ...

    I know everyone motorpaces but Levi seems inordinately proud of his ability to stay behind a wheel and it fits his racing style, or lack of.

    If you threw out the time trials, I doubt Levi spent 10 minutes in the wind during the entire 2007 tour. His victory in the final TT made me eat a little crow last year but doesn't that just prove he could set out on his own but is too careful. Is he one of the best GC riders in the European peloton? Absolutely. Is he a smart rider? Certainly. But he's like insomnia on wheels to watch and carries none of the traits that create heros of the peleton like say Bernard Hinault.

    Lance...I've come around to the realization that he doped. I used to buy into the mythology but one day the thought occurred to me that all the people who could even try to hang with him in the mountains were dopers. Over the Lance years, I remember Pantini, Basso, Ullrich, Virenque, and Boloki hanging with Lance in the hills but then ultimately breaking. All of whom were dopers. Are we supposed to believe that he's not only better than all the world class cyclists but the world class dopers without doping himself? I'm aware that this falls well short of "evidence" but it's still more logic than I can stretch to save the Lance mythology.

    To be fair, Valverde and Kloden have also hung with Lance and haven't been caught taking anything- though Valverde has been rumored to be part of the O.P. case, and Kloden was on not one but two of the dopingest dope teams that ever were- T-mobile & Astana/Liberty Seguras.

  10. #10
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    its all about two wheels ban'd4life. Easy big fella

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairylegs
    I

    Lance...I've come around to the realization that he doped. I used to buy into the mythology but one day the thought occurred to me that all the people who could even try to hang with him in the mountains were dopers. Over the Lance years, I remember Pantini, Basso, Ullrich, Virenque, and Boloki hanging with Lance in the hills but then ultimately breaking. All of whom were dopers. Are we supposed to believe that he's not only better than all the world class cyclists but the world class dopers without doping himself? I'm aware that this falls well short of "evidence" but it's still more logic than I can stretch to save the Lance mythology.

    To be fair, Valverde and Kloden have also hung with Lance and haven't been caught taking anything- though Valverde has been rumored to be part of the O.P. case, and Kloden was on not one but two of the dopingest dope teams that ever were- T-mobile & Astana/Liberty Seguras.



    In an effort of full disclosure, I'm a big Lance fan. That being said you have got to realize that he trained entirely for the Tour. He trained for the Tour harder than anyone ever has. The Tour was his entire focus. Had he been starting as many races as the dopers he beat, things might have been different. Beyond that he was possibly the most tested athlete in history. Never failed a test. Sure you can argue that he was untouchable and his tests were always going to come up clean. Who knows. It's all water under the bridge at this point anyhow.

    Even if you don't agree that he won clean, you have got to respect what he has done with the fame and fortune the 7 Tour wins provided him. He is the single biggest individual advocate for funding,research,support for cancer victims in the world. He is attacking cancer with the same mindset he raced with.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairylegs
    Who else will suck on wheels and refuse to attack for the entire race?
    That's easy.

    Cadel Evans.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=Jimc] he was possibly the most tested athlete in history. Never failed a test. Sure you can argue that he was untouchable and his tests were always going to come up clean. Who knows. QUOTE]

    David Millar never failed a test. I don't recall any of Bruyneel's riders failing a test...until they left his team and his doctors, then they dropped like flies.

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=papawheelie]exactly, motorpacing is standard practice. However, I do agree Levi isn't a very exciting racer but he knows how to get the job done. We all got used to Lance dominating with powerful attacks (yes I think he doped, its naive not to think so). QUOTE]


    I guess those hundreds of drugs tests he took that were all negative were wrong then

    Do you really think he cheated and got away with it? He had a target on him for 7 years. Never once tested positive for anything. They tried to invent new ways to bring him down. And they could not do it. Why? Because he didn't cheat.

    Sorry you are so cynical about the sport you say you love watching.

  15. #15
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    We weren't born cynical, we were made that way

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke
    I guess those hundreds of drugs tests he took that were all negative were wrong then

    Do you really think he cheated and got away with it? He had a target on him for 7 years. Never once tested positive for anything. They tried to invent new ways to bring him down. And they could not do it. Why? Because he didn't cheat.

    Sorry you are so cynical about the sport you say you love watching.
    When people defend Lance or Tyler or Floyd by saying "You can't prove a negative" that's true, but it's also acknowledging that negative tests prove nothing except "we didn't catch you doing anything this time".

    Lance has failed as many drug tests (zero) as the sum positive results for the following dopers:
    Bjarne Riis, Jan Ullrich, Ivan Basso, David Millar, Eric Zabel, Jorge Jackt, Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mark McGwire, and Jose Canseco. None of those guys (and gal) ever peed positive (admittedly the baseball testing is designed to not catch anybody while giving the appearance of trying). They were all caught with something other than a laboratory.

    You can't have it both ways, you can't say "It's impossible for Lance to prove his innocence" and then offer negative test results as proof of his innocence. Those two arguements of mutually exclusive of each other.

    And yeah, it does suck to be cynical about a sport I love but that's the world we live in.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairylegs
    When people defend Lance or Tyler or Floyd by saying "You can't prove a negative" that's true, but it's also acknowledging that negative tests prove nothing except "we didn't catch you doing anything this time".

    Lance has failed as many drug tests (zero) as the sum positive results for the following dopers:
    Bjarne Riis, Jan Ullrich, Ivan Basso, David Millar, Eric Zabel, Jorge Jackt, Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mark McGwire, and Jose Canseco. None of those guys (and gal) ever peed positive (admittedly the baseball testing is designed to not catch anybody while giving the appearance of trying). They were all caught with something other than a laboratory.

    You can't have it both ways, you can't say "It's impossible for Lance to prove his innocence" and then offer negative test results as proof of his innocence. Those two arguements of mutually exclusive of each other.

    And yeah, it does suck to be cynical about a sport I love but that's the world we live in.
    I find it interesting that you KNOW he cheated, but never he tested positive by the drug tests employed in his sport at the time he competed. And that's what you have to go by. So you are saying that Lance was soo good at cheating he never got caught, or the tests used were inadequate to catch him.

    I did not say Lance has to prove his innocence, you seem to want him to, even though he never tested postive by the standards employed by his sport. It's not at all like the baseball players. They did not even test for these things at the time they were taking them. (allegedly) . Clemens got caught because someone came forward and said I stuck the needle in his but. There is no smoking gun with Lance. You know more about the other cyclists than I because I don't follow it as closely as you.


    Question: Did Floyd cheat? Did Hamilton cheat? (I'm not being sarcastic, I would really like to know.)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairylegs
    We weren't born cynical, we were made that way

    I will agree with that
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke
    I find it interesting that you KNOW he cheated, but never he tested positive by the drug tests employed in his sport at the time he competed. And that's what you have to go by. So you are saying that Lance was soo good at cheating he never got caught, or the tests used were inadequate to catch him.

    I did not say Lance has to prove his innocence, you seem to want him to, even though he never tested postive by the standards employed by his sport. It's not at all like the baseball players. They did not even test for these things at the time they were taking them. (allegedly) . Clemens got caught because someone came forward and said I stuck the needle in his but. There is no smoking gun with Lance. You know more about the other cyclists than I because I don't follow it as closely as you.


    Question: Did Floyd cheat? Did Hamilton cheat? (I'm not being sarcastic, I would really like to know.)
    I don't know that he cheated, but if you want to know what I believe, then yes I believe Lance cheated. Just because I didn't walk in on him with a needle labeled "drugs to make you ride yoru bike faster" sticking out of his butt doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. I'm frequently wrong but that has never stopped me from making an educated guess.

    I would love to believe that Lance is so good that he could beat Ivan Basso at every turn even though he was a doper and destroyed the Giro d'Italia field by a record-setting and in retrospect unbelievable margin and could taunt a legendary climber/doper like Pantini as he flew by him (which I thought was AWESOME at the time). But after a while, I started to feel like I was being taken for a ride.

    As for Floyd and Tyler, I'd say yes and yes. But again, I have no smoking gun. I was naive enough to donate my own money to Believetyler.com when he rolled it out. In retrospect, I feel that it was wasted money given to a convincing liar. Even by the standard of never testing positive, Tyler and Flyod fall short. Floyd's case strikes me as a combination of nitpicking at typos and pointing out real administrative concerns which should be corrected, but is ultimately unconvincing. And again- I was so psyched by Floyd's ride in 2006 that I immediately went out and rode up Floyd Hill in his honor that evening.

    Like I said, I haven't alwasy been cynical.

  19. #19
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    show me any interview, article, newsclip, whatever where...

    when asked if he cheated or doped or used peformance enhancers Lance said

    "NO"

    His reply was ALWAYS...the same old crap...

    "I am the most tested athlete in any sport in history, I have never failed any test". good for you Lance, I've never been caught speeding in my car either but I do it.


    He never answered a straight YES or NO.

    Frankie and Betsy Andreu testified in court that Lance admitted to his cancer doctors that he had taken EPO, growth hormone and steroids prior to becoming ill, they were in the same room. Now if they were lying in court they would be in trouble and they risked everything, but they came to a settlement with some excuse that they got confused with the post op treatment. Lance was never vindicated as he claimed. If he was innocent would he not have fought it all the way like he has every other allegatioin against him? How could they be confused for that long until they reached the courtroom then suddenly realise they got it wrong?....maybe a big pile of cash helped their memory

    It's not just Lance, look at Millar, he NEVER failed a test, police found empty vials in his house and he admitted taking it...he could have continued the lie and said it was 'for his dog', there was no proof he took it and no positive test result but he admitted taking it and admitted passing the test when dirty.

    Mr Bjarne 50% Riis, everyone(except the naive) knew he was a dirty bstrd but he never failed a test but then he recently admitted doping and passing tests while dirty, as did Zabel,. etc,etc...

    I think Lance's work for cancer victims is great and I admire him but as a cyclist he's just like all the other cheaters

  20. #20
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    Lance had american doctors who were paid large sums of money. Doping programs are extremely strategic and athletes are given specific drugs based on their racing schedule. Microdosing of EPO was the thing during Lance's time and they couldn't detect it, doctors have come out and admitted that. Autologous Blood doping is about as simple as it gets. You donate your own blood into a bag early in the season or whenever. Store in a refrigerator, go out and train for 30-60 days until your Red Blood Cells regenerate. Then the day before the big event you tranfuse your own blood (administered by a doctor to ensure your crit is not too high). Boom, you've just cheated with your own blood, nothing to it right. Unless your as dumb as Tyler and Botero who were the first two cyclists to get busted for blood transfusion, were on the same team and probably had their blood bags labeled wrong. Ooops.

    The difference from using doctors in the US versus anywhere in Europe is that you would never have cops staking out a doctors office photographing athletes coming and going under a huge "sting". Cycling in the US is way low on the radar and by Lance using american doctors is the smartest thing you could do. You should read "Breaking the Chain" and some of the other books that describe the doping scandals. Its unbelievable how this stuff works. If you think Lance didn't dope, you are incredibly naive. Everyone that surrounded him such as teammates and all the guys that he beat have either been caught, suspended and/or retired because of implications. To say that one guy out of all those - Lance- didn't using performance enhancing drugs is fantasy.

    I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that Tyler blood doped. I can't tell you how I know but just trust me, my source is as valid as it gets. Regardless if he claims innonence or not, honestly I'm pretty tired of his bullsh*t but he served his time and unless you put him under formal investigation, the guy should be able to race. The should have never given him a racing license if they thought he was tied to a scandal. Its just crap.

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