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  1. #1
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    Someone turned EF into a cat box!

    Whatever outfit that did this, considering we're rolling into the dry season, you ripping up a bunch of uphill dirt to fill in the hardpacked trail and NOT wet it down...you've just doomed EF to become the surface of the moon!

    Good job! Now do everyone a favor and STOP!
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  2. #2
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    ditto...was zero fun

  3. #3
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    They did this all over apex! I also noticed they inserted some speed bump rocks in the trail to try and slow people down. Riders with skill will just wheelie over them and the noobs will widen the trails by going around them. I was out at lair of the bear and that place is triple track now. It might have been the last time I ever ride there.

  4. #4
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    Check the photo album of the Windy Saddle sanitation:
    Photos - The Denver Mountain Bikes Meetup Group (Denver, CO) - Meetup

    Photo 13/19...I don't know about you, but I'm thinking that trail doesn't need to be widened anymore than its existing width...? Is the work the Minicrew is doing sanctioned by JeffCo Open Space, or are they just out there on their own doing what they consider a public service?
    Someone turned EF into a cat box!-600_236794432.jpeg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Someone turned EF into a cat box!-600_236794462.jpeg  

    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrock450 View Post
    They did this all over apex! I also noticed they inserted some speed bump rocks in the trail to try and slow people down. Riders with skill will just wheelie over them and the noobs will widen the trails by going around them. I was out at lair of the bear and that place is triple track now. It might have been the last time I ever ride there.
    It's working!

  6. #6
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    Welcome to Jeffco fellows...

    This happens on a couple of their trails every year. It fits right in with their "brilliant" trail management policies of having a large amount of available space, but only putting one multi-use trail on it for everyone to fight over.

    Every time I got to another town I'm amazed at the great trail NETWORKS they're lucky to have. Fruita, Moab, Vernal, Rapid City, Vancouver, just to name a few.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    ...I don't know about you, but I'm thinking that trail doesn't need to be widened anymore than its existing width...? Is the work the Minicrew is doing sanctioned by JeffCo Open Space, or are they just out there on their own doing what they consider a public service?...
    This is a continual problem, and here's the thing: lots of the people who come out to do volunteer work tend to be really nice people, but sometimes older, often very much oriented toward moderate mountain biking or hiking. Mountain bikers work, and certainly there are very often expert riders who understand trail. But enough of them?

    We had a maintenance day this spring. Typical turnout for here, a bunch of older folks, not enough crew leaders for the turnout (I for example was forced to be over in Fruita riding that weekend). Since it was kind of early in the season we hadn't really planned for enough leaders to be there. A friend of mine who is a top notch rider and really understands trail told me about how he had hiked in pretty far into the work area for the day. He did some good work, shoring up some trail where the critical edge was degrading, but keeping it real.

    End of the work time, he's hiking out with his tools. He comes up on a pair of older dudes who have dug a huge rock out of the trail. It's so big they are having trouble even moving it by themselves. It had been almost totally buried in the tread, just making kind of a bump. But these guys saw the bump and thought "hmm, this could be smooth!" They went through a huge effort to dig it up, and in order to come up with enough dirt to fill in the divot they had made, they had to dig into backslope. Ultimately they made a huge, wide, smooth spot where there had been a nice narrow trail with a bump in it.

    Not enough crew leaders, no clear instructions about what should be done and what should NOT be done.

    The lead crew leader that day has been part of our group for a long time, and he's driven some efforts to smooth out sections of trail that were not a problem--In My Opinion. But he shows up. He's been working hard, super hard, for our group for many years. He's open to discussion, and he's flexible about doing things differently, but ultimately he's a retired dude who's a very conservative rider, and when he looks at a section of trail he sees a different desired outcome.

    But he shows up.
    Tom Purvis - Salida, CO - http://teamvelveeta.tom-purvis.com

    "I like my wimmen like I like my beer--cold and bitter!"

  8. #8
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    So SS just corrected me that monsoon season is ramping up right now. So hopefully these trails w/ its loose dirt will get wetted down and don't turn into ground zero for an outbreak of silicosis due to moon dust...
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
    ╭∩╮( º.º )╭∩╮

  9. #9
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    Joined the T.I.T.S. crew for one of these mini crew sessions on Zorro last year(?). We all left the trail that day saying how ashamed we were of what we just did.

    I applaud wanting to give back to the trails that we ride on, but the execution of some of these efforts is really questionable.

    Yes, also rode Apex/Enchanted Forest yesterday and agree that the whole park is "duff'd" out. Too much work for the mini crew, this had to be the buses full of the summer Trail Steward youth program.


    ***

  10. #10
    zrm
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    A lot of this sort of thing is due to the inherent impacts of mountain biking. If as many people volunteered one or two days a year to work on trails and fix the problems (and rode their bikes in a mindful way to be easier on the trails) as complained on the interwebz, stuff like this wouldn't be an issue.

  11. #11
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggs View Post
    Welcome to Jeffco fellows...

    This happens on a couple of their trails every year. It fits right in with their "brilliant" trail management policies of having a large amount of available space, but only putting one multi-use trail on it for everyone to fight over.

    Every time I got to another town I'm amazed at the great trail NETWORKS they're lucky to have. Fruita, Moab, Vernal, Rapid City, Vancouver, just to name a few.
    There's congestion on the highways so more highways are the solution.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    There's congestion on the highways so more highways are the solution.
    Uhh, yes.

    There's plenty of "open space". For example look at Centennial Cone. It's got tons of unused space and only one trail. Add just a second loop and cut the traffic in half.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    There's congestion on the highways so more highways are the solution.
    The answer to both issues is moar trails.

    Sometimes I think you take the anti-progress position just to do it; you cannot be this dense. Wiggs brings up a great point. The Denver Metro is severely lagging in trail building when compared to many other cities, especially if you factor in the amount of growth in the area. Some areas mentioned are even building trails [GASP!] for bikers.


    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    A lot of this sort of thing is due to the inherent impacts of mountain biking. If as many people volunteered one or two days a year to work on trails and fix the problems (and rode their bikes in a mindful way to be easier on the trails) as complained on the interwebz, stuff like this wouldn't be an issue.

    There is no shortage of volunteers that bike, z. There is a shortage of intelligent trail design.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by scar View Post
    Joined the T.I.T.S. crew for one of these mini crew sessions on Zorro last year(?). We all left the trail that day saying how ashamed we were of what we just did.

    I applaud wanting to give back to the trails that we ride on, but the execution of some of these efforts is really questionable.

    ***
    What were we told? Something like the rule is for a 4' wide trail. We made that one turn too narrow and I got chastised for putting the rocks on the face of a lip.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando Gutierrez
    The only thing you have to figure out is don't fall down. To keep riding the bike.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaycastlerock View Post
    What were we told? Something like the rule is for a 4' wide trail. We made that one turn too narrow and I got chastised for putting the rocks on the face of a lip.
    Yeah man, I've been on some projects when I just came away with a full-on facepalm. Really REALLY a bummer when that happens.

    There's a guy around here who, well, I better not be too specific, but he has had a position of influence within a certain large governmental agency's trail strategy. After having had the experience working on several of the jobs he's driven, if I showed up at a work day and he was even there, I would turn around and leave. I know lots of others around here who feel the same way.

    It's a weird thing--trail advocacy is a passionate business. But it's also kind of like politics. Passionate people each with their own background and perception and experience, often in fundamental disagreement. That dude absolutely knows that I'm wrong. I absolutely know that he's wrong. One day, he's in charge. Another day I'm in charge.

    But the worst thing is, I can be in charge the day the trail is built, and then he can be in charge a year later for a maintenance day and totally fsck up my work! In the case where he wants the trail wider, smoother or easier, ultimately he wins. Lots harder to make a trail narrower or more technical after it's been sanitized, than it is to sanitize a narrow technical trail.
    Tom Purvis - Salida, CO - http://teamvelveeta.tom-purvis.com

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Check the photo album of the Windy Saddle sanitation:
    Photos - The Denver Mountain Bikes Meetup Group (Denver, CO) - Meetup

    Photo 13/19...I don't know about you, but I'm thinking that trail doesn't need to be widened anymore than its existing width...? Is the work the Minicrew is doing sanctioned by JeffCo Open Space, or are they just out there on their own doing what they consider a public service?
    I don't think you should judge a trail right after it's been worked on.

    Other than the fact that they didn't cut the backslope enough I think it looks pretty good. Give the vegetation two years to grow in and some freeze-thaw cycles and I bet it's a different trail.

    I've seen several trails that were cut in as narrow little singletracks and they end up being maintenance hassles the very next year and then another crew has to come in and widen the tread to make them functional. (I'm thinking of one of the new reroutes at Palmer Park and another on Capt. Jacks.)

  17. #17
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggs View Post
    Uhh, yes.

    There's plenty of "open space". For example look at Centennial Cone. It's got tons of unused space and only one trail. Add just a second loop and cut the traffic in half.
    "Unused" by who or what? In nature, nothing is "unused" Your statement only makes sense if your opinion is the best use for natural areas is human benefit. Certainly, some people feel that way, just like they feel more freeways need to be built, but others don't. Of course not too many people want to ask all the plants and animals what they think.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    Of course not too many people want to ask all the plants and animals what they think.
    I did this once after dropping acid. All they wanted to talk about was White Rabbit by Jefferson Airplane...
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    You guys suck im all bummed now

  19. #19
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    Hold the presses...this was NOT minicrew at APEX, we did some work on Chimney, but was there last night and it is pretty much back to normal. We have NOT been to Apex this year!!!

    Minicrew gets where to work and what to work on from Jeffco
    Last edited by claystrick; 06-27-2013 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Added Info

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    "Unused" by who or what? In nature, nothing is "unused" Your statement only makes sense if your opinion is the best use for natural areas is human benefit. Certainly, some people feel that way, just like they feel more freeways need to be built, but others don't. Of course not too many people want to ask all the plants and animals what they think.
    If that's your arguement, then we should just cover all the trails and close the parks completely.

    These area's are surrounded by large houses with paved driveways and access roads. I doubt the anmimals voted for these either. There's got to be a happy (happier) medium.

  21. #21
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    Saw that the mini crew was going to be working on Chimney and was going to tackle this eyesore.




    So here is what it looked like today -

    Someone turned EF into a cat box!-chimney-rework.jpg

    So let's stack rocks on top of the original up hill track track that doesn't erode (still can see shelf edge in top photo) and force everyone downhill on the "cheater" trail that recently popped up over the last few years?

    Wouldn't all that material and labor been better served building up a feature on that downhill side to prevent anymore of trail eroding away?

    Someone turned EF into a cat box!-chimney-rework3.jpg

    I totally understand that I may be uneducated in this area so please educate me and all the others on what the strategies are for Jeffco trail maintenance, please.

    And what is up with the one pungee stick on the trails edge, does anybody have a pack saw that they can cut this thing down?


    ****

  22. #22
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    Jeffco is going to build a rock armored retaining wall on the lower trail, that you show, so they can re-align back to the original upper trail, where is was years ago before people started shortcutting and eroding the trail.

    Jeffco asked minicrew to gather rock for the wall and stack them on the uphill side, because it is always easier to move a rock downhill to set in place than up.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by scar
    So let's stack rocks on top of the original up hill track track that doesn't erode (still can see shelf edge in top photo) and force everyone downhill on the "cheater" trail that recently popped up over the last few years?
    Quote Originally Posted by claystrick View Post
    Jeffco is going to build a rock armored retaining wall on the lower trail, that you show, so they can re-align back to the original upper trail, where is was years ago before people started shortcutting and eroding the trail.

    Jeffco asked minicrew to gather rock for the wall and stack them on the uphill side, because it is always easier to move a rock downhill to set in place than up.
    Good that they are doing that, I think it's the way to go too.

    But...

    One of the things that happens to high traffic sidehill trails is that they tend to drift down. When the fines get eroded away and rocks start growing, riders don't go up, they go down. You can see this clearly in many places on the Crest. You can see where the trail originally was, and often you can see multiple lines that are lower and lower on the sideslope at various ages.

    Also, we all know that users will often put lots of work into restoring their cheater lines. Amazing how much time and energy some fred will put into moving rocks out of the way that were put in place to block a weenie route. Sometimes if the priority is to eliminate braids, the trail managers will just pick the line that users are insisting to adopt, even if it's stupid.

    So whether it's natural down drift, or prediction of a losing battle to close a stupid yet popular line, sometimes the deciders just try to stabilize the trail that's most likely to be the winner of the popularity contest.
    Tom Purvis - Salida, CO - http://teamvelveeta.tom-purvis.com

    "I like my wimmen like I like my beer--cold and bitter!"

  24. #24
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    Originally posted by claystrick
    Jeffco is going to build a rock armored retaining wall on the lower trail, that you show, so they can re-align back to the original upper trail, where is was years ago before people started shortcutting and eroding the trail.

    Jeffco asked minicrew to gather rock for the wall and stack them on the uphill side, because it is always easier to move a rock downhill to set in place than up.


    That is great to hear. Thanks for educating me


    ***

  25. #25
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggs View Post
    If that's your arguement, then we should just cover all the trails and close the parks completely.

    These area's are surrounded by large houses with paved driveways and access roads. I doubt the anmimals voted for these either. There's got to be a happy (happier) medium.
    That's not my arguement at all. Parks, open space, etc such as that exist on the FR and other places exist for multiple reasons. Views, watershed protection, wildlife habitat, recreation, the simple preservation of (at least semi) wild places close to an urban setting. All those things needs to be balanced. Some open space programs have very specific language in their charter as how those things are to be balanced. Others are a bit more vague. You have your opinion on that balance, I have mine, everyone else has theirs. I suspect that you'll find a wide variety of opinions and they all seem proper and sensible to those who hold them
    . If you look at all the things you mention, houses, driveways, roads, acknowledge that those things are increasing, not decreasing, and really think about their impact on wild fauna and flora, you can begin to understand the importance of somewhat wild areas for the living things that don't do well on pavement or with lots of people around.

    I'm of the feeling that new trails need to be very carefully considered, there may be places where they are appropriate, but if anything, considering how wildlife is being squeezed more and more into less and less favorable habitat erring on the side of caution is the right thing to do. I've been working on trails and trail access issues for almost 25 years, I've worked on the planing, design, and construction of quite a few new trails so I'm not "against" new trails, but I'm not automatically knee jerk that we need trails everywhere or that new trails will necessarily solve all problems which IMO, is what you get a lot of in these forums on MTBR. I'm not knee jerk that hikers, horses, other bikers who wear clothing that makes me uncomfortable, roadies, those horrible bureaucrats, people who do trail work that doesn't fit how I think it should be done, and so on are the sworn enemies of mountain biking either.

    Someone suggested that I "do this" just to be contrary but no, unless I'm being obviously tongue in cheek or letting a little snark get the best of me, I really believe in what I post. I'm actually quite fine with being called a "tree hugger" - I don't think that's derogatory at all. That said, I do think there should be a little balance of opinions here and any other type of public forum, you can't have a healthy debate without a variety of points of views and positions. Otherwise, it's just a circle jerk and no one learns anything in those. I don't think riding my bicycle, as much as I love it and as much as I do it, is the most important thing to me. For me, there's more to my position on the planet than me having fun on my bicycle.

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