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  1. #1
    The Notorious S.L.O
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    ? on sharing the trail w/horses

    so, what should you do when you are traveling the same direction as a horse on the trail?
    Chances are, that you are almost always traveling faster than the horse.

    I grabbed a lunch ride today at Meyer's Ranch in Aspen Park. I noticed the horse trailer in the parking lot, so I knew that horses would be on the trail. I came up on them on the way down, I saw them at least 50+ yards in the distance, slowed down to a crawl, and from about 20 yards back, asked "may I pass?" to which the response was " I wouldn't reccomend it".
    hmmm, not exactly a response that I anticiapted.

    I contined to pace the horse, staying about 20 yards behind, as the trail got tighter, I was starting to realize that I may have to stay behind them for the duration.
    After a few minutes, the rear rider that had responded earlier, shouted to the front rider, "he wants to pass, so I guess we have to get out of his way", in which I detected a bit of attitude.
    The front rider said that there was no place to pull over. I said" no rush, I want to do what is safe for you and your horse"
    few minutes later, they pulled over at a small overlook area, I dismounted and walked past the horses, apologized for the inconveince and thanked them for letting me pass.

    So, a couple of questions:
    What is the best way to annouce yourself so that you can pass the slower animals?
    As the rules state, Mtn bikers have to yeild to all other trail users, do we even have a right to request a pass?

    Thanks.
    BT
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  2. #2
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
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    You did the right thing. They have a responsibility as a user of a multi-use trail to allow you to pass at a safe point.

    When I'm coming up on slower trail users I'll usually slow down like you did then announce myself with a friendly "Up behind you" - then the ball's completely in their court to figure out what they're going to do. 99% of the time they stop and let me by or tell me "give me a minute to find a good place to let you pass."

    The other 1% of the time they don't acknowledge my greeting - which is a complete azzhole move... unless they're deaf. And iPods in the ears don't count. Fvcking oblivious morons.

  3. #3
    DWF
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    Is euthanasia on the table? Lead poisoning? Death therapy?
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  4. #4
    ..ouch
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    Quote Originally Posted by btadlock
    So, a couple of questions:
    What is the best way to annouce yourself so that you can pass the slower animals?
    As the rules state, Mtn bikers have to yeild to all other trail users, do we even have a right to request a pass?
    You should never attempt to pass. As a biker you should stop, bow in homage to their natural majesty and offer to ride behind them to pick up the glorious horse apples they'll drop every 20 feet.

    I think that's pretty close the USFS rulebook..

  5. #5
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    All I know is I just want equal right of the horse-back riders.

    So when ever I pass the stables at Palmer Park I take a dump so the horses have to step in it. Just like I have to ride over their crap.

    What does horse taste like?

  6. #6
    DWF
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    Quote Originally Posted by limesoda71
    What does horse taste like?
    It tastes like Victory!
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    The other 1% of the time they don't acknowledge my greeting - which is a complete azzhole move... unless they're deaf. And iPods in the ears don't count. Fvcking oblivious morons.
    One of those little bottled air horns might be a good camelback accessory. Guaranteed to get their attention and will probably take care of the horses as well.

  8. #8
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    That was lame of them. Screw those lazy bastards. I say let the horses roam free to do hit some drops and tabletops.

    Reprocessed hay my arse. I don't care. It's still a pile of crap.
    Yield to downhill

  9. #9
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    hot dogs

    btadlock, kudos to you for your patience in taking the high road.


    Quote Originally Posted by limesoda71
    What does horse taste like?
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  10. #10
    Inflexable...
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    Quote Originally Posted by limesoda71
    What does horse taste like?
    Chicken...
    Tact is for people not witty enough to be sarcastic...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotdirt
    btadlock, kudos to you for your patience in taking the high road.
    I agree with gotdirt, BT, great job trying to coexist. We're already losing trails all over the state to the hiking/horsing crowd - the more friends we make (or try to) the better.

    In some places where there's lots of traffic, those handlebar bells work well. I'm not talking about the big monstrosities that look like bathtub toys or bellboy summoners. Just a small "ding" usually does the trick and people appreciate the courtesy (except for those idiots listening to i-tunes on the trail - for them, maybe a blast from an airhorn IS the answer. That or pepperspray...)

    E

  12. #12
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    I like wearing my iShuffle, but no one is really ever passing me. I have a big bell on the handle bar, seems to work just fine for the horses/hikers/gapers. (Nothing against them, I dont even mind the horse poo all that much, another fun obstacle) But the horse owners do seem to have issue with bikers no matter the situation. Never really had a great experience goin around a horse. The horseback riders seem to be the ones pushing the 'close the trail to bikes' issue, and they seem to cause more damage to the trail. Hmmm
    Last edited by WKD-RDR; 08-31-2007 at 06:41 PM.

  13. #13
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    The BF and I were cruising down Belcher Hill at White Ranch last Saturday and got behind a line of horses that were heading down, too. I think there were about 10 of them. We thought we'd have to wait until we got to the bottom to get by them, cuz the lower part of the trail is pretty narrow. When he saw us the guy in front said "wait till the trail widens up ahead and we'll get out of your way". Then they did. We rode by and said thanks. Everyone was polite and reasonable and a good time was had by all.
    I drank the 29er koolaid- turns out it was POWERade

  14. #14
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    I just keep my mouth shut. Literally. Ever had Giardia?

    Plus I don't want to irk any horseback riders and I see so few it's not worth speechifying at them about trail etiquitte, the damage they do to muddy trails, or the bacteria bombs they leave. You did the right thing IMO. Just be nice and try not to spook them. They usually get way off the trail if you let them know you're behind and want to pass.

  15. #15
    Shattering Glass
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    Whatever the case, make sure you let them know how ignorant and non courteous of them to let those farm animals shart the trail. I do. Kind of puts the ball in your court.

  16. #16
    Oh, So Interesting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dash
    Kind of puts the ball in your court.
    Kill yourself.... or stop mtbing
    .




    Strava: turn off your dork logger when you're not on sanctioned trails.

  17. #17
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    quiet, polite, and make weird ass noises....

    I am getting hungry for some GLUE. And Equine burgers, I really love wild horses so much and they have no business on our trails. If they do not adhere to the "leave no trace" philosophy, we should be allowed to eat em - I like mine seared and med in the midlands.

    Approach politely, if they do not provide reasonable opportunity for you to go by....weird noises and all might spook em enough that the rider will allow you to pass.

    RESPECT...leave no sign, or stay off the rails..
    C.SPRINGS

  18. #18
    lucky enough
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    Let's have some respect...

    ...for animals that helped us populate the west. Wild horses made the trails I first started riding on. Issues are really with the riders - just like dog owners - I mean guardians. . Some are clueless - let their undisciplined dogs run free or don't train their horse not to shy at everything. .But most are reasonable and will let you pass when they can. I think you handled it well.
    And of course we have idiots in the mtb world as well. Comments about glue and eating equine just show immaturity. Give respect and you will get respect.
    "Don't take life so serious, son . . . it ain't no how permanent." - Porky Pine

  19. #19
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    I'll Be Legal To Vote In A Few Years....

    ...or so Dad keeps reminding me. In the interim it seems that slave labor, disease infested blankets gifted to native peoples, and proactive thinking did the most to help us populate the west. I do indeed respect native peoples but the disease infested blankets...no.... and Slavery... no not for me thanks!

    I welcome wild horses anywhere, but domestic horses driven by pukes who do not respect the trails are not in that class, nay even the same solar system.

    Yes I am immature, but even now I am hungry and the thought of glue and burgers makes my tummy excited. Why is it a crime to eat horses and not cows?
    C.SPRINGS

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSPRINGS
    Yes I am immature, but even now I am hungry and the thought of glue and burgers makes my tummy excited. Why is it a crime to eat horses and not cows?
    You EAT glue?
    I drank the 29er koolaid- turns out it was POWERade

  21. #21
    ..ouch
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSPRINGS
    Why is it a crime to eat horses and not cows?
    Actually, it's quite common to eat horsey in many developed countries. Just too strong of a beef lobby in the good ole USA.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_meat

  22. #22
    lucky enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Actually, it's quite common to eat horsey in many developed countries. Just too strong of a beef lobby in the good ole USA.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_meat
    I don't think it has anything to do with the beef lobby - cows and horses often co-habitate on the same ranch. I think it's that most Americans view horses as being a partner to be counted on as is a dog. They have some measure of intelligence. Thus they develop feelings for them as a pet. I don't think people view cows as pets. The French do eat horse, though. And the Chinese and Koreans will eat all kinds of things, including dog.
    "Don't take life so serious, son . . . it ain't no how permanent." - Porky Pine

  23. #23
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
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    Quote Originally Posted by cocavaak
    I don't think it has anything to do with the beef lobby - cows and horses often co-habitate on the same ranch. I think it's that most Americans view horses as being a partner to be counted on as is a dog. They have some measure of intelligence. Thus they develop feelings for them as a pet. I don't think people view cows as pets. The French do eat horse, though. And the Chinese and Koreans will eat all kinds of things, including dog.
    And the aussies eat cats!

    Pretty much all of Europe eats horse IIRC.

  24. #24
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    OK, to bring the back on topic....

    You did exactly what you should have done, especially by getting off your bike and walking past the horses. Thank you!

    Horses (unless they have been around a lot of biking) see bicyclists as predators, we're low to the ground, fast and quiet, so most likely we're going to eat them. By getting off the bike and walking the horse can more easily recognize you as a human that just happens to be pushing some weird thing (like humans do quite often). Also be careful following, if you get too close you could spook the horse, and cause someone to fall. Although I understand the concept of being in control of your horse, I also know that not everyone is as good at controlling their horse as they should be, and even expert riders can get caught off guard. I have a friend that got a brain injury because her horse spooked as some bicyclists went past her unexpectedly (road mind you, but the end result would be the same, and she fell into the ditch, not on the road). Bottom line is be extra courteous and you will be well received. Thanks again!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FmrCmtr
    Horses (unless they have been around a lot of biking) see bicyclists as predators
    My funnies encounter with a horse and rider went like this...

    Me climbing up a dirt road on my bike. Horse is actually 3 yards off the trail in the meadow. So it is save to pass. I do the usual friendly communication and cycle away. About a minute later I hear that thump-thump of a horse at full canter. "He simply does not like to be overtaken" shouts the rider. Not sure she was in control... More like hanging on.

  26. #26
    DWF
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    Quote Originally Posted by FmrCmtr
    Also be careful following, if you get too close you could spook the horse, and cause someone to fall. Although I understand the concept of being in control of your horse, I also know that not everyone is as good at controlling their horse as they should be, and even expert riders can get caught off guard. I have a friend that got a brain injury because her horse spooked as some bicyclists went past her unexpectedly (road mind you, but the end result would be the same, and she fell into the ditch, not on the road). Bottom line is be extra courteous and you will be well received. Thanks again!
    Bottom line, that's my biggest problem with horses on multi-use trails. They're extra large pets that much too often their owners have little control over and present a danger to themselves and other trail users. I wonder how horse folk would like it if I took a 250 pound dog, known to freak out and thrash its immediate surroundings every time it got a little spooked out on the trails off the leash? And then just to put the cherry on top, that 250 pound dog leaves a huge dump and waters down the middle of the trail.

    99% of the horses on these trails are pets. PETS. They are not working animals. They're pets that their owners have little control over. If a horse and its owner cannot deal with the environment they put themselves in without being a danger to themselves and other users, then they're careless and negligent and do not deserve my courtesy or consideration.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  27. #27
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    I ride both horses and bikes on multi-use trails, several times a week. I agree, if my horse cannot handle the site of bikes and is unsafe/out of control, he has no business being out there. And, on some of the group horse rides I have been on, It rather pisses off the horse folks when I tell them exactly that - if your horse cannot handle all situations (horses, bikes, dogs, coyotes, gunshots, backpacks, etc) then look in a mirror because YOU (the rider) did not do your homework. Especially in the case that started this thread - the rider did all he could to diffuse the situation and share the trail.

    However, and although I try to, I should not have to train my horse to deal with any rude and unsafe trail user, be it a biker or 250lb dog owner, that comes blasting around blind corners, moving too fast, or generally be rude/unsafe. Even though the rules state every trail user yeilds to horses - I believe every trail user yeilds to everyone. Yeild first. Say Hi. Then say have a nice ride and whoever can move the easiest do so.

    >>I wonder how horse folk would like it if I took a 250 pound dog, known to freak out and >>thrash its immediate surroundings every time it got a little spooked out on the trails off
    >>the leash
    Me, personally, I would let my 1000lb horse with metal shoes chase, stomp, and kick the teeth out of your freak show dog. He rarely/never catches dogs and coyotes, but he will get a piece of them when he can. Perhaps your point is better said that whatever you bring into the woods, better make sure it's not affecting the rights/experience/safety of others.

    What if my brakes weren't working well and I rode on through a group of hikers because I could not stop? Yep, 1000lbs of out of control horse is different than a 200lbs of bike and rider with bad brakes, and yep, horse folks seem to have more than their share of bad attitudes, but as bikers we need to look in a mirror too, and act accordingly on multi-use high activity trails.

    >>99% of the horses on these trails are pets. PETS. They are not working animals.

    So what. Is your 250lb dog a working dog, or a pet? Do you use your bike for work? Or is it a money pit like mine, and most others here, and we just choose to experience the trails on bikes instead of horses. I guess I use my bike to commute to work. Used my horse to commute a few years ago too. What do you care if they are pets or working ranch horses? You should only care if the horse and rider are safe and in control, just like any other trail user and their equipment.

    >>If a horse and its owner cannot deal with the environment they put themselves in >>without being a danger to themselves and other users, then they're careless and >>negligent and do not deserve my courtesy or consideration.

    A horse, its rider, a biker, a dog, a hiker with a baby in a backpack, a runner, even a motorcycle, deserve all the courtesy and consideration from everyone else on trail. Always and no exceptions. As someone said previously in this thread - just take the high ground and do what you can. If the horse is running and the rider cussing because the horse couldn't handle seeing a helmet on your head. Smile and know you did everything you could. But if that horse is running because you carved a 20mph blind piece of singletrack into it, then you are being part of the problem that USFS, CDT Alliance, and others are considering single-use designations and closures to mechanized travel. As bikers we cannot afford this any more.

    jon.
    p.s. I move my horse's rear-end off the trail when it is time for a manure break - they give enough warning to move their hip over far enough to take care of that business off trail.

  28. #28
    DWF
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnordby
    I ride both horses and bikes on multi-use trails, several times a week. I agree, if my horse cannot handle the site of bikes and is unsafe/out of control, he has no business being out there. And, on some of the group horse rides I have been on, It rather pisses off the horse folks when I tell them exactly that - if your horse cannot handle all situations (horses, bikes, dogs, coyotes, gunshots, backpacks, etc) then look in a mirror because YOU (the rider) did not do your homework. Especially in the case that started this thread - the rider did all he could to diffuse the situation and share the trail.

    However, and although I try to, I should not have to train my horse to deal with any rude and unsafe trail user, be it a biker or 250lb dog owner, that comes blasting around blind corners, moving too fast, or generally be rude/unsafe. Even though the rules state every trail user yeilds to horses - I believe every trail user yeilds to everyone. Yeild first. Say Hi. Then say have a nice ride and whoever can move the easiest do so.

    >>I wonder how horse folk would like it if I took a 250 pound dog, known to freak out and >>thrash its immediate surroundings every time it got a little spooked out on the trails off
    >>the leash
    Me, personally, I would let my 1000lb horse with metal shoes chase, stomp, and kick the teeth out of your freak show dog. He rarely/never catches dogs and coyotes, but he will get a piece of them when he can. Perhaps your point is better said that whatever you bring into the woods, better make sure it's not affecting the rights/experience/safety of others.

    What if my brakes weren't working well and I rode on through a group of hikers because I could not stop? Yep, 1000lbs of out of control horse is different than a 200lbs of bike and rider with bad brakes, and yep, horse folks seem to have more than their share of bad attitudes, but as bikers we need to look in a mirror too, and act accordingly on multi-use high activity trails.

    >>99% of the horses on these trails are pets. PETS. They are not working animals.

    So what. Is your 250lb dog a working dog, or a pet? Do you use your bike for work? Or is it a money pit like mine, and most others here, and we just choose to experience the trails on bikes instead of horses. I guess I use my bike to commute to work. Used my horse to commute a few years ago too. What do you care if they are pets or working ranch horses? You should only care if the horse and rider are safe and in control, just like any other trail user and their equipment.

    >>If a horse and its owner cannot deal with the environment they put themselves in >>without being a danger to themselves and other users, then they're careless and >>negligent and do not deserve my courtesy or consideration.

    A horse, its rider, a biker, a dog, a hiker with a baby in a backpack, a runner, even a motorcycle, deserve all the courtesy and consideration from everyone else on trail. Always and no exceptions. As someone said previously in this thread - just take the high ground and do what you can. If the horse is running and the rider cussing because the horse couldn't handle seeing a helmet on your head. Smile and know you did everything you could. But if that horse is running because you carved a 20mph blind piece of singletrack into it, then you are being part of the problem that USFS, CDT Alliance, and others are considering single-use designations and closures to mechanized travel. As bikers we cannot afford this any more.

    jon.
    p.s. I move my horse's rear-end off the trail when it is time for a manure break - they give enough warning to move their hip over far enough to take care of that business off trail.
    You seem to have trouble with the abstract. Though I do own dogs, I don't have a 250 pound dog. I consider them pets though they do occasionally work hard at keeping the squirrels out of the garden. I don't take them on MTB trails unless there's lots of snow on the ground. I do use my bikes for work. I'm lucky that way. I also grew up in the ranch/farm environment and owned horses, competed on horses, and worked horses. For reelz.

    My point about horses being pets is the often promoted argument that horses are immune to the same concepts that apply to pets at multi-use trails because they're "working animals" when most have never "worked" at anything more than a feed bag. This argument is usually followed by how noble an animal a horse is. A horse could be King F'n Tut for all I care; don't let them crap & piss all over multi-use trails, don't have them haul their sorry cowboy wannabe asses over the trails when it's muddy, and make sure they can control their pet in any situation that they might run across on a multi-use trail without becoming a danger to others. That may involve a dog off a leash or a MTB'er skidding to a stop on a blind corner. It happens, they can either deal with it by properly conditioning their pet before hand, or their pet can make it worse and injure themselves, their owners, or other trail users. What's the responsible thing to do?
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  29. #29
    zrm
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    You did the right thing for sure, even though it was an inconvienance to you. I would also point out that wheneveer possible, you should try to pass horses on the downhill side of a trail. Their instinct is to look for preditors pouncing from above so in their horse mind, something below them is not as threatening as something above them.

    I rarely run into horses except near stables and when I do I ask the rider if I can pass, how the horse feels about bikes, and if I need to dismount. Most folks on horses are fine. Regardless of how I feel about the issue of impacts from horses, I think it's important to be polite.

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    I know you don't have a 250lb dog. They exist probably, but rarely. You used the dog as an example, I used it in my reply.

    You must be hearing different arguments than I, and bumping into different circles of horse folks as well. I've never heard the working animal argument, and only hear the pet and noble crap from the non-horse owning peta/anti-slaughter folks. This is from starting horses, breaking (being broken too) them, training, trailriding, selling a few, competing, and ranching with them from time to time. Who cares if it is someones pet, ranch horse, race horse, breeding stock. There is no distinction - either they can handle all situations on the trail or they cannot. I've seen ranch horses used to pasture rope and doctor cattle run away from bikes all day long - heck, who can blame them - they've never seen a bike.
    It'd be like calling what you ride a bike because you use it, and the rest of us are on toys. They both leave the same skid mark.

    I don't ride in groups of horses anymore, the few group trail rides I've been on result in behaviour I think we agree upon: Very elitist, often very anti-bike (I leave them in the dark for a long time before I confess to being a biker, hilarious!) we were here first, you yeild and bow to my skittish arab, you are the reason I am having a bad day, I am more cowboy if I have some mud on me, etc attitude. I do a lot of trailwork in this area, and other than poorly layed out trails, horses in the mud are our biggest issue - they rarely turn back and let things dry out.

    The responsible thing - just like I said before: Always be in control of speed enough to yeild safely and reasonably. Skidding to a stop a few feet away from impact does not fit the responsible category. But it fits the reality category and it will happen - I won't take a horse out that cannot handle it - but the near impact stuff has to stop by all trail users. Just turns out there are many more bikers out these days so we are causing more conflicts - bet percentage-wise we are actually reducing in number of conflicts. More and more folks on bikes (like the thread starter) seem to be trying like heck to be courteous, even in the face of the wannabes.

    jon.

  31. #31
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    Lets look at the demographics of your typical horseback rider:

    12-60yo WASP female
    overeducated
    unemployed, housewife or supported by a trust fund
    daddy's princess

    or

    40-60yo WASP male
    drugstore cowboy
    narcisistic tendencies
    posuer

    and they are stoopid enough to ride an animal that is literally dumber than a cow.

    These are the same people that run you off the road with their SUV's....
    And you actually think they want to share they trail with you?

    If the mountain bikers were smart they would band together and get the horses kicked off the trails. But that get's us into the problem with the demographics of mountain biking... independent 18-40yo WASP male/female. Too self centered to organize themselves into a powerful special interest group despite the fact that the numbers are on their side.

  32. #32
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    Upset You see, this attitude is the problem...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyridesmykerf
    Lets look at the demographics of your typical horseback rider:

    12-60yo WASP female
    overeducated
    unemployed, housewife or supported by a trust fund
    daddy's princess

    or

    40-60yo WASP male
    drugstore cowboy
    narcisistic tendencies
    posuer

    and they are stoopid enough to ride an animal that is literally dumber than a cow.

    These are the same people that run you off the road with their SUV's....
    And you actually think they want to share they trail with you?

    If the mountain bikers were smart they would band together and get the horses kicked off the trails.
    ...Generalizations on both sides. Some horse riders think that all bike riders are young males terrorizing the trails. They are incorrect just as you are. You generalize - people on both sides generalize, typically because they don't know any better. They never have been really exposed to a different world, so they speak out of ignorance.

    My wife and I are horse - and bike riders. Yep she is a 40 year old WASP, but she only has two years of college so is not overeducated, and she's worked all her life either with animals or with programs to help kids. No trust funder there. I'm hispanic - part WASP, college educated and have my own business. Sorry to disappoint - no drug store cowboy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyridesmykerf
    and they are stoopid enough to ride an animal that is literally dumber than a cow.
    Way wrong - if you spent enough time around them you'd realize that. Just look into their eyes. Don't blame cows though, they were breed only for their meat - no natural selection to sharpen their senses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyridesmykerf
    These are the same people that run you off the road with their SUV's....
    And you actually think they want to share they trail with you?
    I do drive an SUV - Subaru, but I haven't driven anyone off the road. I want to share the trail with everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyridesmykerf
    If the mountain bikers were smart they would band together and get the horses kicked off the trails.
    This is just the us against them mentality that will never allow us to progress as far as making more trails accessible to us. We will get nowhere if we are viewed as antagonistic. We have to work together with other groups to make any progress. And that means a real understanding of where each of us is coming from. So please lose your knee-jerk reactions and uninformed generalizations. Maybe get out on the trail as a bike ambassador and introduce yourself and get to know other types of trail riders. Make a difference why don't you?
    "Don't take life so serious, son . . . it ain't no how permanent." - Porky Pine

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MtbRN's Avatar
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    Nice effort but you are wasting your time...

    A very reasonable reply to an unreasonable posting, cocavaak, but you are wasting effort. There is a small and vocal group on these boards who have their minds made up that all equestrians are ____________ (fill in the blank with any negative generalization) and make them a target on which to vent their spew. I think it is the same group that starts all the "downhiller vs x-country" mountain bike nonsense, too.

    It really is best for your sanity to let them rant, because there is no changing minds here. If you hang around these forums enough you'll see these threads posted over and over again with the same meatheads saying the same things over and over again...

    As for the "demographics of mountain biking... independent 18-40yo WASP male/female", I'm sure all the over-40 crowd here will be pleased to know that they didn't make the cut-off. And all the COMBA/IMBA/Medicine Wheel folks will be pleased to know they are too self-centered to organize (translation: Nobodyridesmykerf is full of it)
    I drank the 29er koolaid- turns out it was POWERade

  34. #34
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
    Reputation: SkaredShtles's Avatar
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    11,739
    Quote Originally Posted by cocavaak
    ...<snip>
    I do drive an SUV - Subaru, but I haven't driven anyone off the road. I want to share the trail with everyone.
    Subaru doesn't make any SUVs.

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