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  1. #1
    Candlestick Maker
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    Rampart Range Wilderness?

    Check out this effort from Colorado Mountain Club to turn a section of Rampart into Wilderness (no bikes!)...

    -----------------------------------------

    The Rampart East project is entering a new and exciting phase, one which creates an opportunity for more support!

    To briefly summarize: over the past 5 (!) years [even longer counting the earlier scouting and mapping done by the Denver Group], we have
    - mapped every route within the Roadless Area
    - gotten the official boundaries expanded, with part also designated as "Upper Tier Roadless"
    - moved or removed some roads from the inventory, with prospects for more to be closed
    - arranged for the publication of "pocket pals" maps of recommended trails
    - greatly increased public awareness of the area


    We have decided to advance the project in two directions.


    1. The Colorado Mountain Club core of the group has decided to initiate a campaign to have a Wilderness designation cover as much of the area as possible. We will be meeting in the Community Room at the Safeway on South Wilcox in Castle Rock at 6 pm this Wednesday, November 7 to begin developing a strategy for that campaign. If you would like to help, please attend. If you cannot attend, don't worry: this is likely to be a 10-15 year effort, and there will be plenty of future chance to help.


    2. On Thursday, we will asking the Palmer Lake Town Council to give final approval for a CMC stewardship project, rerouting the lower portion of the Ice Cave Creek trail into a safe and sustainable alignment. If you live in (or have influence in) Palmer Lake, please attend the Council meeting on November 8 (worksession at 6, voting at 7) in the Town Hall. If you would be interested in volunteering to help with the trail project next year, please let me know so I can tell the Council that there is indeed interest in the project.


    You have been included on this email list due to past interest expressed in the Rampart East project and our goals. Emails will be infrequent; if you would like to get OFF the mailing list, please respond to me. If you are not already a fan of our Facebook page, please visit it at Rampart East Roadless Area or
    Rampart East Roadless Area | Facebook. Also learn more about the CMC and the Roadless Area on our website at Rampart East Roadless Area.


    Thank you,


    Tom Mowle
    Colorado Springs co-chair
    CMC Rampart East project
    baker

  2. #2
    Team Inflexible
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    Oh hellz no!

  3. #3
    I'm with stupid
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    I love how dumb **** groups like this make it so there are no trails threw the "wilderness" for others to enjoy, but they are "allowed" to just go tromping the **** around off trails and walk around wherever there little heart decides. Groups like these tree huggin hippies make me sick. They strive off of fear and " global warming" type thinking and preaching. These groups that want to "limit" use are just selfish asshats that want to keep it all for themselves and make it harder for the average joe to take his kids "the next generation" out into the woods to learn and see how pretty it is. ****ing elitist is all they really are and they need a cause to get behind so they they think they are doing the right thing.......which they are not. If you make it harder for average people to get away from the concrete jungle and see what the wilderness is really about then they will never care for it at all because they wont know how awesome it really is. Rant mode off...................

  4. #4
    I think I can.
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    Wow, that map shows starting just south of monument, probably behind AFA then heads west past woodland park.

    They have no clue what they are trying to do. One of the biggest off road and shooting areas in Colorado would be closed, good luck trying to legislate this POS.
    Everything is all good until you piss off the NRA and the Off road groups.

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOEMTBR COLORADO View Post
    They have no clue what they are trying to do.

    They know exactly what they are doing. The Colorado Mountain Club is the definition of a self serving anti-access group. They used a series of shady illegal meetings to divert OHV funds so that they are used to close trails.

    They justify their actions in the name of environmentalism, while actively promoting skiing, which is far and away the most environmentally destructive recreational activity in colorado.

    Beware of the CMC. They are well funded and totally willing to circumvent the law in order to close the forest to anyone they don't like.

  6. #6
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    Join CMC and change from within.

  7. #7
    I'm with stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    Join CMC and change from within.
    Covert secret operations...... I like this idea. Go get them Joe, we all know I dont play nice enough with others to pull this off.

  8. #8
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    These maps give you a better idea of the area that want to grab: Rampart East Roadless Area. They want to start from north of Balanced Rock road to Dawson Butte.

    As far as I know none of there trails are officially designated FS trails, so perhaps they better get some approvals on that juncture before stealing our land. They're slapping some Wilderness along a major recreational area like Rampart Range? Sure, keep it roadless in that area, but Wilderness, no freakin' way!

    Edit: Geez, it costs a minimum of $79.00 to join, WTF?

  9. #9
    zrm
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    The best thing to do is take a close look at the proposal, determine exactly what the impacts on whatever your favorite recreational activity or what in your opinion on forest/watershed/wildlife would be and make concise, and coherent comments based on that. You can get yourself all into a frenzy and include all kinds of rhetoric and vitriol if you want, (IE: they're "stealing" our land, or "I just don't like it") but it will make little impact on how the proposal proceeds from a regulatory pint of view.

  10. #10
    Candlestick Maker
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastajet View Post
    These maps give you a better idea of the area that want to grab: Rampart East Roadless Area. They want to start from north of Balanced Rock road to Dawson Butte.
    For anyone that hasn't explored the area that pastajet is referring to, there is some excellent stuff in here. Specifically, the Airplane trail, which takes you to the Sidney Harrison memorial. Here, you can find the remains of a small plane that crashed in 1952.

    I'm not sure how this area classifies as roadless. I know for sure that you cross and travel on dirt roads on the way to the crash site, but maybe they've been gated off...

    Here is a trail description: GCP48Y Sydney Harrison Memorial (Traditional Cache) in Colorado, United States created by mtnshelby

    I love this part of the entry: "The directions I’ve chosen aren’t the shortest route, but it’s probably the safest route (an established mountain biking trail), and you’ll avoid private property. "

    There are many other trails worth exploring, some directly off of Balanced Rock Road. Great stuff to be found out in this area.
    baker

  11. #11
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    I'm always surprised that the mountain bike access groups don't team up with the off-road motorized groups like covco. Both groups would benefit.

  12. #12
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    We Don't Need Your MONEY !!!

    A local tourism official says allowing people to ride bikes up Pikes Peak has no... economic impact ???

    "That means another night in a motel, another dinner, another breakfast. It’s hard to pin down how much money these motorists spend, but most of the cyclists are going to be from the community and won’t spend money the same way.

    For that reason, allowing cyclists throughout the summer “just doesn’t make sense,” said Michele Starling, executive director of Pikes Peak Attractions. “In the shoulder season? Great idea.”
    In the summer, she said, “Pikes Peak is the anchor. It is the reason people come here.”"
    WTH?

  13. #13
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    This effort may seem threatening but it may be the conduit to a larger discussion about developing and protecting recreational access to an area that is underutilized from a passive recreational standpoint and abused from a stewardship point of view. But this is from someone who's pint is always half full! :-)
    "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." -- Mark Twain

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzattack View Post
    This effort may seem threatening but it may be the conduit to a larger discussion about developing and protecting recreational access...
    seriously, comparing Rampart Range to Wilderness is like believing a dog turd
    could taste like chocolate. There's no discussion needed. It's delusional.

  15. #15
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    seriously, comparing Rampart Range to Wilderness is like believing a dog turd
    could taste like chocolate. There's no discussion needed. It's delusional.
    Are you saying there are no untrammeled parts of the Rampart that aren't worth protecting? You can make an argument that the Wilderness act isn't the only or best way to preserve those areas that still have a somewhat untrammeled and functioning ecosystem, but that's a different argument than saying there are no areas that deserve any protection at all.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    seriously, comparing Rampart Range to Wilderness is like believing a dog turd
    could taste like chocolate. There's no discussion needed. It's delusional.
    The area that is under consideration is actually a stunning area of the Ramparts that might not be what you have in mind - ie the moto'd-out, shoot'em up'd, tall-boy can strewed parts that most folks associate with when they think of the ramparts.
    "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." -- Mark Twain

  17. #17
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    FYI a few of us are continuing the conversation over on the "Rampart East Roadless Area" Facebook page.

    I just received this in reply: "We've had a few postings from concerned mountain bikers regarding the wilderness campaign, so perhaps we need to be a little more clear about what we are after. "A wilderness designation in RERA" does not mean "designate all of the RERA as a wilderness." There should be room for many types of quiet use within the area -- foot, bike, horse, angler, hunter, camper, climber. If you mountain bike in the area, please suggest what trails and routes get the most use."
    "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." -- Mark Twain

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMC View Post
    "A wilderness designation in RERA" does not mean "designate all of the RERA as a wilderness."
    Yes, we get that. It's the Rampart East Roadless Project.
    What other plans does CMC have for the area?
    How will it be expanded in the future?
    Does CMC support maintaining motorized uses in the remaining area?

    Quote Originally Posted by CMC View Post
    There should be room for many types of quiet use within the area
    Obviously they already exist, without protection. i.e. Rampart East


    Quote Originally Posted by CMC View Post
    -- foot, bike, horse, angler, hunter, camper, climber. If you mountain bike in the area, please suggest what trails and routes get the most use."
    That's right, you cannot have mechanized use (bikes) in a "Wilderness Designation".

    What you'll get is a trail corridor through the "wilderness designation",
    probably a single trail through the least "wild", least scenic areas out
    there, even though we can already access the entire area right now.

    For some of you I have to ask why are you willing to give up without a fight first?

    It's almost like going into a football game already accepting that you will
    lose and asking the opponent, "can I at least score a touchdown so it's
    not a skunk?".

    IMHO No I don't believe that the area warrants wilderness designation.
    I believe this is just another example of how environmentalist pervert
    definitions of wilderness/open space to achieve a goal of non-motorized,
    non-hunter uses of publicly owned lands.

    Before you call me names and leave neg reps let me also add that should
    the CMC propose an area be designated off-limits to OHV's and hunters
    without resorting to Wilderness Designation they would probably have my
    support. My issue is with taking public land and putting it in a lock box
    forever not knowing the intentions/wants/desires of future generations.
    The same as my argument against Conservation Easements.

    There are other ways of protecting Rampart East and giving CMC "quiet
    areas", that don't require petitioning Congress for Wilderness Designation.
    That's the bottom line and that's where any discussion should start.
    Discussions should not start at "what trail do we get".


    Oh yeah. Gig 'Em Aggies!! Whoop! Underdogs can win.

  19. #19
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
    Reputation: SkaredShtles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    let me also add that should
    the CMC propose an area be designated off-limits to OHV's and hunters
    without resorting to Wilderness Designation they would probably have my
    support. My issue is with taking public land and putting it in a lock box
    forever not knowing the intentions/wants/desires of future generations.
    This.

    There are other ways of protecting Rampart East and giving CMC "quiet
    areas", that don't require petitioning Congress for Wilderness Designation.
    That's the bottom line and that's where any discussion should start.
    Discussions should not start at "what trail do we get".
    And this.

    Go to FB, like their page, and make you voices heard! Oh... and keep the discussion civil... even if they come right out and bait you.

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rampa...72964769399699
    Last edited by SkaredShtles; 11-12-2012 at 03:48 PM.

  20. #20
    Candlestick Maker
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    I don't know if you even need to "like" the page to post. I didn't need to for the trail map I just posted.

    I have a hard time "liking" a page for an effort that I'm not fully behind.
    baker

  21. #21
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
    Reputation: SkaredShtles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baker View Post
    I don't know if you even need to "like" the page to post. I didn't need to for the trail map I just posted.

    I have a hard time "liking" a page for an effort that I'm not fully behind.
    I think that if you "like" it then you can get updates in your newsfeed - which in my case will be more likely to keep me appraised of what's being discussed.

  22. #22
    Candlestick Maker
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    Ah, I hadn't thought of that aspect.
    baker

  23. #23
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
    Reputation: SkaredShtles's Avatar
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    I've taken the discussion to the FB page directly. I encourage others to get involved...

  24. #24
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    What do you think about IMBA and it's involvement in a proposal such as this? IMBA has an interesting stance on Wilderness: Frequently Asked Questions: Wilderness and IMBA | International Mountain Bicycling Association

    This line is particularly pertinent/promising for the aforementioned proposal:
    "When proposed Wilderness Areas include significant mountain biking opportunities, IMBA pursues boundary adjustments and alternative land designations that protect natural areas while preserving bicycle access. IMBA can support new Wilderness designations where they don't close singletrack bicycling opportunities."
    baker

  25. #25
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    I've contacted COMBA and Medicine Wheel Trail Advocates to see what they have to say regarding this issue. I'll report back when I hear something...
    Last edited by baker; 11-12-2012 at 03:55 PM.
    baker

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