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Thread: PSA - Apex

  1. #1
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    PSA - Apex

    This is just a PSA: watch your speed and trail etiquette at Apex. This afternoon, there were two full-time Jeffco Open Space Rangers at the very bottom, WIDE part of the trail, almost near the concrete bike path, purposely standing (literally) in the middle of the trail (not hiking, not moving at all), just baiting mountain bikers to go around them, only to them pull them over and issue them a ticket or a warning if you actually did.

    So, when you see a Ranger, even on a really wide part of the trail, you best just stop. I was "lucky" and only got a written warning. A ticket would have been $50.00 according to the handout i was presented with.

    The Ranger that "talked" to me (Martin was his name) had a serious power trip attitude, actually raised his voice, never took of his sunglasses (I did - FYI, common courtesy), and was very unprofessional. I'm a sworn officer myself, and this guy needs a lesson in how not to take things personally. As I was approaching, I saw that he was a Ranger and that he was talking to another biker so I slowed down to what I thought was a crawl (but was apparently not enough to him), made face-to-face contact, went around him on the trail, to his left with plenty of room (but apparently not enough for him), and it didn't matter. They honestly expect you to basically come to a stop, regardless of trail width or condition. Be warned.

    Oh, and if you have a dual crown fork on your bike and look like you know what your doing, it won't matter what you do. I fear that the Rangers may profile just a little bit. While we were talking, an older gentleman rolled by us on a hardtail, pertty much doing the exact same thing I did, without so much as a word. Nice, Jeffco, nice.

    One last FYI - I've never had any negative experience with the volunteer Jeffco Open Space Rangers - the ones I've actually seen riding bikes on the trails. Every time I come across one of them, they are always friendly, professional, and eager to talk. Both of my experiences with the full-timers have neen completely 180 degrees from those experiences.

  2. #2
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    Saw them on my way up and warned most of the people I passed. The one guy that passed me I forgot to warn, and what do you know, he got a ticket. I felt bed, but I know he must have passed them on the way up.

  3. #3
    575
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    I've had two experiences with said "Martin". He is the only Jeffco Ranger that seemed to have an anti-biker attitude. The others have been much better. Not sure what his deal is. Lately, the vibe has been very healthy among the riders and hikers. Not sure what his personal agenda is. Too bad. He's giving the rest of the rangers a bad name.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by 575
    I've had two experiences with said "Martin". He is the only Jeffco Ranger that seemed to have an anti-biker attitude. The others have been much better. Not sure what his deal is. Lately, the vibe has been very healthy among the riders and hikers. Not sure what his personal agenda is. Too bad. He's giving the rest of the rangers a bad name.

    It's not the Rangers. Look higher up the food chain.

  5. #5
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    Jeffco sucks every season. The sad thing is, is I'm willing to drive a far distance to avoid these individuals. I had my experiences with these guys (LOTB) last summer before all the stuff went down with Jeffco and COMBA. They make the riding experience stressful even when you are on your best behavior which I always am LOL

    It's so sad in my opinion that we have to warn eachother about this on a forum.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikergal
    Jeffco sucks every season. The sad thing is, is I'm willing to drive a far distance to avoid these individuals. I had my experiences with these guys (LOTB) last summer before all the stuff went down with Jeffco and COMBA. They make the riding experience stressful even when you are on your best behavior which I always am LOL.
    That's extremely unfortunate and should not the be case, as was the experience of the OP.

    Remember everybody, JCOS is performing a public input process on Apex right now, their stated goal being to increase the safety of park users, and provide more positive experiences for visitors.

    Stings, run in the manner described by the OP, do neither. They are intrusive and negatively affect the park experience for everyone. Therefore, these unfortunate experiences and antagonistic interactions need brought to the attention of JCOS, and changed.

    If you haven't done so already, please take a few minutes to the Feedback suvery and provide your observations. Even more importantly -- mark your calendar and attend an Open House to describe your experiences to JCOS in person.

    Details shown below ...:

    +++++++++++++++++++++

    1) Written Input: JCOS is soliciting pubic input on visitors' preferred management techniques. To streamline the submission of requested feedback from the cycling community to Jefferson County, an electronic version of the JCOS feedback form has been made available by the Colorado Mountain Bike Association (COMBA) and the International Mountain Bicycling Association (IMBA). Please go here to participate. Upon submission, a copy of your answers and comments will be automatically emailed to Thea Rock, Jefferson County's Manager of Citizen Outreach. The deadline for submitting Feedback Forms is June 30, 2009.

    2) Open Houses: Two open Houses will be held in June at the Open Space Ponderosa Meeting Room located at 700 Jefferson County Parkway in Golden. A large turnout from mountain bikers will help ensure our standing in these important discussions! Mark your calendars and attend if you can: Thursday, June 18, 2009 from 6:30 - 8:00 p.m; Saturday, June 20, 2009 from 9:30 - 11:00 a.m.

    3) OSAC Report: Findings from public input will be reported at the Open Space Advisory Committee’s regular meeting on July 2, 2009 at 7:00pm. COMBA will be there to make sure our input was captured fully, and hope you will be too!

    4) Spread the word! Please forward a link to this post to everyone you know who values their mountain biking experience at Apex, who will want to be part of this important process. Our voices matter!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by 575
    Lately, the vibe has been very healthy among the riders and hikers.
    I live next to Apex and ride it all the time. And I, like you, have noticed particularly amicable behavior between user groups and fellow riders this season. Even early season, when usually conflicts are higher (fewer trails open = more visitors enjoying same trail = more potential for conflict).

    But something's working right. And seeing as though that's the case, hopefully everyone, riders, hikers, Rangers and JCOS management will work to captilize on this positive trend.

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    Hypothetically speaking, what would happen if you were to ignore a ranger's request to stop so he could give you a ticket? Probably not a good idea from a pro symbiotic relationship standpoint, but how much power does one of them actually have? Same as a police officer or are they just glorified wildlife patrollers? I havent had any run-ins with any yet, but to be trapped in some sort of sting all the while being treated in an uncourteous power trip type manner would be like standing on my last nerve.
    Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder

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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    I live next to Apex and ride it all the time. And I, like you, have noticed particularly amicable behavior between user groups and fellow riders this season. Even early season, when usually conflicts are higher (fewer trails open = more visitors enjoying same trail = more potential for conflict).

    But something's working right. And seeing as though that's the case, hopefully everyone, riders, hikers, Rangers and JCOS management will work to captilize on this positive trend.

    What do you mean by "something's working right"?

    Msurk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Three Phase
    Hypothetically speaking, what would happen if you were to ignore a ranger's request to stop so he could give you a ticket? Probably not a good idea from a pro symbiotic relationship standpoint, but how much power does one of them actually have? Same as a police officer or are they just glorified wildlife patrollers?
    They have the legal authority to issue the ticket, so it should be respected.

    That said, appearing for your court date to challenge a Failure to Yield Right of Way ticket given under current yielding rules would very likely not be a waste of a person's time. And almost assuredly save you $50. But most importantly, showing up gives responsibile citizens the opportunity to describe their experiences and offenses (or lack thereof) to the Court, and hopefully effect positive change in park management.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by msurk
    What do you mean by "something's working right"?

    Msurk
    Just that visitors of all stripes appear to be "expecting and respecting" each other in Apex, and working cooperatively and amicably inside the parks. And have been for months, from my experience. It's been really pleasant.

  12. #12
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    I agree with TVC15 that it seems like users are getting along better at Apex. I, too, live very near Apex and ride and trail run it all the time and I just don't see the escalating negative interactions that JCOS is talking about. I think they are trying to solve a "perceived" problem, and one that does not actually exist. Just how many biker/hiker/equestian collisions are there? Can anyone produce a number? I'm close to the local news and fire/rescue communities and I'm just not hearing about any.

    My gut feeling is that this is a "squeaky wheel gets the grease" situation where a few (possibly high profile, or those with some political clout), vocal hikers are continually making complaints to JCOS. And as a result, in order to be politically correct, JCOS has to do "something."

    I don't know how you solve a "perceived" problem other than by educating someone's perception, which can be very difficult to do.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by enduroslrider
    I don't know how you solve a "perceived" problem other than by educating someone's perception, which can be very difficult to do.
    Showing up at Open Houses to discuss this topic is a good place to start ....

  14. #14
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    Absolutely. Oh, I'll be attending at least one of the Open Houses, that's for sure. COMBA/IMBA/JCOS already has my feedback on this issue as well.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    That's extremely unfortunate and should not the be case, as was the experience of the OP.

    Remember everybody, JCOS is performing a public input process on Apex right now, their stated goal being to increase the safety of park users, and provide more positive experiences for visitors.

    Stings, run in the manner described by the OP, do neither. They are intrusive and negatively affect the park experience for everyone. Therefore, these unfortunate experiences and antagonistic interactions need brought to the attention of JCOS, and changed.

    If you haven't done so already, please take a few minutes to the Feedback suvery and provide your observations. Even more importantly -- mark your calendar and attend an Open House to describe your experiences to JCOS in person.

    Details shown below ...:

    +++++++++++++++++++++

    1) Written Input: JCOS is soliciting pubic input on visitors' preferred management techniques. To streamline the submission of requested feedback from the cycling community to Jefferson County, an electronic version of the JCOS feedback form has been made available by the Colorado Mountain Bike Association (COMBA) and the International Mountain Bicycling Association (IMBA). Please go here to participate. Upon submission, a copy of your answers and comments will be automatically emailed to Thea Rock, Jefferson County's Manager of Citizen Outreach. The deadline for submitting Feedback Forms is June 30, 2009.

    2) Open Houses: Two open Houses will be held in June at the Open Space Ponderosa Meeting Room located at 700 Jefferson County Parkway in Golden. A large turnout from mountain bikers will help ensure our standing in these important discussions! Mark your calendars and attend if you can: Thursday, June 18, 2009 from 6:30 - 8:00 p.m; Saturday, June 20, 2009 from 9:30 - 11:00 a.m.

    3) OSAC Report: Findings from public input will be reported at the Open Space Advisory Committee’s regular meeting on July 2, 2009 at 7:00pm. COMBA will be there to make sure our input was captured fully, and hope you will be too!

    4) Spread the word! Please forward a link to this post to everyone you know who values their mountain biking experience at Apex, who will want to be part of this important process. Our voices matter!
    I have already filled out the survey. I've tried giving my input, this was before COMBA changed hands.
    Ride Fast, Take Chances!

  16. #16
    zrm
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    If a ranger is deliberately putting people in an untenable position then it should be brought up through the methods that TVC15 mentions. In crowded multi use trail systems like Jeffco's, education and enforcement is necessary. Harassment and attitude is not. Tactics that are arbitrary and ineffective and rangers who are not acting professionally are all things that should be brought to the attention of the policy makers.

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    How about if one of us played hiker for a day, went up to where "Martin" was lurking, chat with him for a sec, watch how he handles bikers and set him straight if need be. Like, Martin, why'd you get in that guy's face when he was trying to be polite with you? And, jeez, Martin, ever take off those shades? What's he gonna do, give a hiker a ticket?

    No hiker is going to do this. If a peep rides he's going to be on Apex on his bike. If you're on your bike Martin feels like he's got the power and is in control. Hear his side of the story.
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  18. #18
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    What if a rider were to do a CX style dismount right in front of him, shoulder the bike, then run into him? Technically, you're now a hiker, and at that spot, he's downhill so he should be yielding the right of way right?

  19. #19
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    Video speaks loud, Where's those helmet cams?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dash
    Video speaks loud, Where's those helmet cams?
    exactly what I was thinking..someone should record this guy on his power trip

  21. #21
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    JeffCO sure takes the RV out of GRAVY
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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