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  1. #1
    Yappy little dog!
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    OT: Need a Lawyer

    Before you all start thinking, it's a very specific and on-going thing since I moved in.

    Anyway, I am not sure exactly what type of Lawyer I should contact or who. I need a Lawyer who will write a Cease and Desist letter to my neighbor who has continually harassed my family (most notably my 82 year old Mother-in-Law since we moved in. There's a lot more to this (including some unethical HOA stuff he did too - he is Treasurer). The other day he harassed my MIL when she went to get the mail. She was shaking all day and I had to deal with it on the phone during work.

    Hope someone can point me in the right direction. It's been three years of Hell from this bastard. There is nothing worse than an A$$hole neighbor.

    I've called a bunch of local Real Estate attorneys but they don't deal with that kind of stuff. I have already fought the HOA once and I don't have the energy to do it again.

  2. #2
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
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    Attorney Alternatives

    But seriously, good luck.

  3. #3
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    Sorry to hear about this. I would probably talk to a good criminal attorney first. I don't know one and am not in town so I can chk with my office folks, but I'm positive there are several good ones around. Sometimes, a letter from a criminal attorney will solve the problem.

  4. #4
    still riding
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    yeah , I'm thinking restraining order over cease and desist here.

  5. #5
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
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    I'd contact Rontele at COMBA. He'd likely point you in the right direction. Either that or he'll just empty your wallet.

  6. #6
    drinks from the fountain
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    My father in Law was an attorney. On issues like this he said a nice letter will usually do the trick.
    So you dont have to pay a retainer. You could even make your own with a fancy letterhead.

    Fear works well too. You want for me to stop by with Moose and Rocco?
    "I dont know Karate but I do know K RAZY! " James Brown

    Seriously goood luck.
    pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

  7. #7
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    I'd contact Rontele at COMBA. He'd likely point you in the right direction. Either that or he'll just empty your wallet.

    Now that was funny! Thank you.

  8. #8
    !Vamos, flaco!
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    I am an attorney and I do not want your case. However, the Colorado Bar Association has a "Find a Lawyer" feature I have referred people to before. http://www.cobar.org/directory/

    Most attorneys worth anything, or at least, the ones you will want to work with, will talk to you and hear you out to decide if they can or should take the case before you pay anything. Before speaking with them, get a good idea of what you want and try to get all the facts straight. I only mention this because you said there's a lot more to this . . . The more you help your attorney out, the better representation you'll get and the cheaper it'll be. Don't be afraid to call several attorneys before picking one.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  9. #9
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmosebar
    My father in Law was an attorney. On issues like this he said a nice letter will usually do the trick.
    So you dont have to pay a retainer. You could even make your own with a fancy letterhead.

    Fear works well too. You want for me to stop by with Moose and Rocco?
    "I dont know Karate but I do know K RAZY! " James Brown

    Seriously goood luck.

    I tried the "nice" approach. I got the door slammed in my face. Then I got nasty. The result? $3500 in landscaping to block him, no basketball hoop for my kids, and he had to take his deer statue down from the front of his house (which I didn't really care about but it was to prove a point). Yeah, I got the $h!t end of the stick. It's very hard to deal with an a$$hat like that, especially when he is an officer on the HOA BoD. One that needs a 67% majority to replace. Oh, and did I mention that the homeowners need to be physically present in order to vote? The meetings are at 5:00PM. Good luck on that.

    I am not a violent person, although he did try to jump over a table at me during an HOA meeting.

  10. #10
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    I am an attorney and I do not want your case. However, the Colorado Bar Association has a "Find a Lawyer" feature I have referred people to before. http://www.cobar.org/directory/

    Most attorneys worth anything, or at least, the ones you will want to work with, will talk to you and hear you out to decide if they can or should take the case before you pay anything. Before speaking with them, get a good idea of what you want and try to get all the facts straight. I only mention this because you said there's a lot more to this . . . The more you help your attorney out, the better representation you'll get and the cheaper it'll be. Don't be afraid to call several attorneys before picking one.
    Thanks for the advice and link. I will give it a shot.

  11. #11
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    schnauzers,

    I sent you and email with a referral to a good friend (he's a mountain biker too!). I think he can be of assistance.

  12. #12
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rontele
    schnauzers,

    I sent you and email with a referral to a good friend (he's a mountain biker too!). I think he can be of assistance.

    Thank you!

  13. #13
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    What a load of Kraap! Attorneys are about money and more money. A good attorney wants money! Oh did I tell you they want money??? And another thing! All this boa dtr krt mbd lostkm $hit is ruining America. Go pull your pants up.

    OK I admit it! I'm a hypocrite. I just hate the A word.
    Last edited by jimbowho; 01-16-2010 at 05:56 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbowho
    What a load of Kraap! Attorneys are about money and more money. A good attorney wants money! Oh did I tell you they want money??? And another thing! All this boa dtr krt mbd lostkm $hit is ruining America. Go pull your pants up.

    nice job.

  15. #15
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    If it wasn't for lawyers we wouldn't need lawyers. I heard that once. Nothing to add, really, just subscribing. I've had "Children of The Corn" neighbors before but never brought a lawyer into play. I just moved. Got great neighbors now.

    You know what they say about neighbors? The best you can hope for is that they leave you alone. Anything better is just a bonus.
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  16. #16
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    i don't think i've ever heard a good story about HOA's

  17. #17
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    Just two words: molotov cocktail
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  18. #18
    holding back the darkness
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    HOA's are the devil.
    Completely un-american to begin with.
    have you tried getting the police involved? Harrassment, possibly assault... build your history.

  19. #19
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y
    Just two words: molotov cocktail
    One word: move.

    Or, let it all go and befriend him, somehow.

    In this, if you're right you lose and if you win you lose. It's lose / lose proposition no matter the outcome of any efforts, any lawyering. Ultimately, what you want is to enjoy your home, right? Why dump time and efforts and energy into a guaranteed lose / lose situation?

    I'd find any avenue for the win, and focus there.

    Sorry to hear this, it would truly suck.

  20. #20
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    your mom in law fits the perfect fit for an elderly person at risk. Get the loca LEOS in with some complaints. Felonies and ****. That will help with the court order being next. Can't tyupe on pain kiillers. ****.
    WTF

  21. #21
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    One word: move.

    Or, let it all go and befriend him, somehow.

    In this, if you're right you lose and if you win you lose. It's lose / lose proposition no matter the outcome of any efforts, any lawyering. Ultimately, what you want is to enjoy your home, right? Why dump time and efforts and energy into a guaranteed lose / lose situation?

    I'd find any avenue for the win, and focus there.

    Sorry to hear this, it would truly suck.
    I hear ya. I ignored it for a while. Then when they switched HOA management companies, all of a sudden I started getting violation notices. So, I went to him, knocked on his door and asked him why we couldn't talk it over mano y mano. He was in a defensive stance the whole time. Granted I can be a little rough on words sometimes, but I wasn't. I was very calm and positive. As his voice elevated, I remained even toned. When he refused to stop the attack on me, I told him I would discuss it with the HOA. Then he slammed the door on me. That was about a year and a half ago. It ended (or so I thought) after I fought the HOA BoD. You can't imagine what I exposed. So, he was quiet for about 8 months and then he went on the rampage again the other day.

    There is a lot here. I could spend days talking about it. It is a bad situation, but I am not going to move. I like my house and I like the community. He happens to be the one out of place as everyone there is young with kids, pets, and jobs. He is retired. I have talked to my neighbors. They are with me on this.

  22. #22
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by subliminalshiver
    HOA's are the devil.
    Completely un-american to begin with.
    have you tried getting the police involved? Harrassment, possibly assault... build your history.
    AMEN! HOA's are evil and this one is rotten to the core. They even went as far as changing the meeting code of conduct an hour before the meeting. Luckily I brought the one that was posted on the Website with me. You should have seen the look on their faces when I took it out and asked how it changed that day. One of the directors was crying because I caught them in a lie. That was the night I recorded the meeting on video (which is was why they changed the rules right before it and tried to tell me the rule against recording was always there). You have no idea what these people have done. It is very scary and the power they have is pretty much unlimited.

    It's a story best told over beer, a lot of beer!

  23. #23
    friend of Apex
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers

    It's a story best told over beer, a lot of beer!

    We talkin party at Schnauzers?
    Raise the roof, and the neighbors temper!
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  24. #24
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    AMEN! HOA's are evil and this one is rotten to the core. They even went as far as changing the meeting code of conduct an hour before the meeting. Luckily I brought the one that was posted on the Website with me. You should have seen the look on their faces when I took it out and asked how it changed that day. One of the directors was crying because I caught them in a lie. That was the night I recorded the meeting on video (which is was why they changed the rules right before it and tried to tell me the rule against recording was always there). You have no idea what these people have done. It is very scary and the power they have is pretty much unlimited.

    It's a story best told over beer, a lot of beer!
    Google HOA horror stories. It will piss you off for sure. They can put liens on your house and more. Record everything. You do not need the other party's permission to record a conversation in Colorado. Keep your recorder hidden. Fighting HOA's is tough. HOA's are the devil. Reminds me of congress.
    http://www.askdavetaylor.com/is_it_l...one_calls.html

  25. #25
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    We talkin party at Schnauzers?
    Raise the roof, and the neighbors temper!

    Just stuck a fresh pony of Dugana in the kegerator!

  26. #26
    t.i.t.s.ceo/FR amoeba rep
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    Got a wood chipper?

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    Seriously good luck!
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    the blog

  27. #27
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
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    Ok, maybe that link I posted up top is more valid than I thought.

    That's pretty terrible when you can't even feel comfortable in your own house.

  28. #28
    Shattering Glass
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    Get an JCOS ranger on this guy to talk to him about the Apex clothesline, and give him a free demonstration...

  29. #29
    My leg feels funny
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    I say try and be nice to him one more time, say maybe fertilize his lawn for him?


  30. #30
    Does Not Belong on a Bike
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    I say you can't go wrong with The Strong Arm, Frank Azar. He helped get me $20,000* when I was hit. Thanks Frank Azar!


    *Funny, the check I took home was $4500...
    This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!

  31. #31
    ..ouch
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    Sometimes violence is good..

    Seriously though, if you're not willing to give him a beat down in a dark alley.. then get him to deck you, on video. It sounds like he has the temper for it. Wait until you know he'll be out front and then go out to mow your lawn. You can give him enough crap to get him riled without the neighbors hearing you over the mower. Between your lawsuit and him sitting in jail he should miss enough mortgage payments to hit foreclosure. It sounds extreme, but so does your situation.

    I think the attorney angle is a waste of time. Anyone with half a brain will laugh at a bs letter from an attorney. Unless he knows you have an attorney friend that will work for free or it's clear that you have substantially more financial resources than he does then he knows it's going to cost you more to go after him than it will be for him to ignore you. Unless you have something clear cut enough for a solid suit then all that letter writing is just more blah, blah, blah, and may even encourage him.

  32. #32
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    Ok, maybe that link I posted up top is more valid than I thought.

    That's pretty terrible when you can't even feel comfortable in your own house.
    Exactly. The dude just sounds crazy. You can't beat crazy.

    You gotta look the outcome you want here.

    Schnauzers, do you know have any idea what his real issue is with you? He sounds like a nutcase, who knows what his real issues are. Is there any kind of olive branch you could extend that might help you understand his (probably bizarre) motivations, calm him, and give you some control to detoxify this mess?

    If you're not moving you're either going into (year 4 of) a huge fight, or you have a relationship to build, some how.

    I'm really sorry! This sounds awful.

  33. #33
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Exactly. The dude just sounds crazy. You can't beat crazy.

    You gotta look the outcome you want here.

    Schnauzers, do you know have any idea what his real issue is with you? He sounds like a nutcase, who knows what his real issues are. Is there any kind of olive branch you could extend that might help you understand his (probably bizarre) motivations, calm him, and give you some control to detoxify this mess?

    If you're not moving you're either going into (year 4 of) a huge fight, or you have a relationship to build, some how.

    I'm really sorry! This sounds awful.
    Apparently, it is the same issue he had with the previous owner. He doesn't like that the dog door is on the side of my house off of the mud room (as every other dog run in the neighborhood is). It faces the front of his house because the developer squeezed his house onto a piece of land after the initial lot layout.

    He taunts my dogs so they bark at him. Then says they bark constantly for over 20 minutes. Well, that's not true because they are not allowed out when no one is home. If they bark, they are called in immediately. My MIL went to get the mail and let them out while she walked down the driveway. She's old, but she's not slow. On the way, he comes out of his house, stands on the porch, and stares down the dogs. On the way back, she sees him and tells him not to do that. That's when he starts harassing her and she tries to tell him she should talk to me. She doesn't own the house or the dogs. He continues to give her crap about having more than one dog, and that he can't stand it, and she needs to do something about it. Meanwhile, the surrounding neighbors dogs continue to bark and I think he believes they are mine. I can't imagine it being just about the dogs. The first day I moved in, his wife came over and got all pissy with us because we put the moving boxes out for garbage pickup and ddn't bring them to the recycling center. I mean real pissy! I think that started it.

    Anyway, I went to his door and wanted to have a polite talk with him about why he was having the association send me these violations. The conversation turned to you shouldn't have more than one dog, and what kind of a person needs to have that many dogs, and put electric bark collars on them. I said dogs bark. That's what they do, especially when they feel threatened. When you stare at them, they are going to get nervous. I was not going to put a bark collar on them when he taunts them and said that I bring them in as soon as I hear them. I then quoted the JeffCo statute (my Wife works for Animal Control after all). I have 10 minutes to stop them, but I never take longer than 30 seconds. Heck, I don't like to hear barking dogs anymore than anyone else. I was very polite that day, but he still said he didn't like it and that's why he reported all those things on me. Yeah, taking a portable basketball court away from a 9 year old is sure a nice thing to do. I said I would bring it up with the HOA and then he slammed the door on me. The rest is history and just gets better.

    Anyway, everything is in 100% compliance with the HOA gestapo. And that is after they tried to change the rules of being in compliance! They were lying and changing things as I was making sure everything was perfect. I called them out on it and they got caught. To give you an example of what I had to go through, I surveyed every house in the neighborhood, took photos of every dog run, and then collected satellite images from google for all of them. It was a pretty compelling case. Things even got down to a fight over ground cover. They just kept coming at me with one violation after another and none of them with anything to back it up. He harasses me personally and through the HOA. The HOA response is that they don't get in the middle of neighbor disputes. I have already told them that as long as he is in the HOA BoD, this is an HOA dispute as well.

    We'll see what happens.

  34. #34
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Sometimes violence is good..

    Seriously though, if you're not willing to give him a beat down in a dark alley.. then get him to deck you, on video. It sounds like he has the temper for it. Wait until you know he'll be out front and then go out to mow your lawn. You can give him enough crap to get him riled without the neighbors hearing you over the mower. Between your lawsuit and him sitting in jail he should miss enough mortgage payments to hit foreclosure. It sounds extreme, but so does your situation.

    I think the attorney angle is a waste of time. Anyone with half a brain will laugh at a bs letter from an attorney. Unless he knows you have an attorney friend that will work for free or it's clear that you have substantially more financial resources than he does then he knows it's going to cost you more to go after him than it will be for him to ignore you. Unless you have something clear cut enough for a solid suit then all that letter writing is just more blah, blah, blah, and may even encourage him.
    Oh, he's got a good Irish temper. That is for sure. It wouldn't take much to get him to deck me. I really don't want to fight him. I just want him to leave me and my family alone. We get along with all the other neighbors. He's just a bitter old retired man from California. His house is probably paid for. I did a background search on him as well. Found a few things, but noting that is shocking. To tell you the truth, he really shouldn't be living there. The houses are about six years old and no one is over 50. Why he stuck himself in that setting is beyond me. They never have anyone over except for his daughter a couple times a year (she lives in Philly).

    There is no reason for him to be such a tool.

  35. #35
    Chronic 1st-timer
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    "I can help you, but someday, and that day may never come, I will ask a favor of you."
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  36. #36
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
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    It sucks, but I would be concerned for my dogs, if I were you. It is not unheard of for aholes to poison animals for no reason other than they are annoyed by them.

    I would mount a surveillance camera on that side of the house. Even a non-functioning one might prevent him from the taunting, but I would want the video proof of anything bad that might happen.

  37. #37
    Your retarded
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    schnauzers, just move, man. You may love your neighborhood now, but is it worth the fight? Will it be the same jolly neighborhood once the fight is over?

    Suing him, or anyone, does not change their behavior, it just pads your and an attorney's pockets (if you win) and increases his hate toward you. Sure, he may stay away from you and/or be removed from the BOD, but you will have given him the motivation to retaliate to an ever greater level if he gets the chance.

    Additionally, this has the possibility to create a rift between the members of the HOA; your community. They'll be put in the position of choosing sides and while you say the majority are currently on your side, that may not always be the case. This is especially true if you end up suing the HOA and depleting the HOA fund that the entire community has been paying into since its creation. Think they'll still be on your side after there's no money left in the HOA to pay for trash and snow removal and the HOA's threatening to raise the dues? Probably not.
    A trail thatís too difficult wouldnít exist because itíd never be used. But, trails can exist thatíre too difficult for you.

  38. #38
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    It sucks, but I would be concerned for my dogs, if I were you. It is not unheard of for aholes to poison animals for no reason other than they are annoyed by them.

    I would mount a surveillance camera on that side of the house. Even a non-functioning one might prevent him from the taunting, but I would want the video proof of anything bad that might happen.
    I have an old X-10 wireless that I probably should setup.

    According to JeffCO Animal Control statues, just staring is considered taunting. But, yeah I could see him throwing a tainted marshmallow over the fence.

  39. #39
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    just move

    life's too short.

    i was in a very similar situation with a complete douchebag in washington park (small lots). it was just too stressfull to stay there. my wife and i would dread turning onto our street. i tried the legal route - in my case it was a dead end and only served to make this loser even worse. people like your neighbor don't change. we're much happier now. good luck.

  40. #40
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    I have a crazy neighbor as well. He recently shot a BB Gun at our bedroom window. He does not work, and he probably is legitamitly crazy, and on social services. I have a temporary restraining order against him, and a court case on the 20th to make it permanent. I have his neighbor to the north and south coming to testify against him as well, and a friend of mine that is too scared of him, so I subpoeonoed him to testify. If he has any contact with me, he goes to jail, and a $5,000 fine. Since the temporary restraining order was delivered by the sheriff's office, I havent heard or seen him once.

    This guy seems to be a bully, has had all sorts of problems with many neighbors around, and now its my turn. But not any more, unless he wants to go to jail.

    Document everything.

  41. #41
    Moosehead
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    schnauzers, sorry to hear about it. too close to the bone.

    maybe you should hire PM? i kid, i kid.

  42. #42
    Rigid in Evergreen
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    The first thing I did when I bought my condo was become a HOA board member (they happened to have a spot open). Fortunately it's well run and the only complaint I've heard is from a renter(!) who thinks the HOA should pay to have her walkway shoveled every morning it snows (she's never actually shown up to an HOA meeting though so this is just word-of-mouth.

    Unfortunately, unless you can get the other HOA board members on your side, then at this point it is probably scorched earth or nothing (PI, lawyer, etc.). You're dealing with someone who has too much time on his hands and probably has no better entertainment than antagonizing you and your family (and sounds like he's probably intelligent enough to side-step any serious legal problems).

    And dog barking is a tricky thing that can go from a minor to a major irritation in no time at all, add to that different people's dogs barking at different times and it can seem like it never ends (the round-robin dog barking was a big problem when I lived on Pine St. in Boulder). People with dogs are desensitized to it and people without dogs are highly sensitive to it... especially when most folks have their windows open 6 months out of the year.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by moosehead
    schnauzers, sorry to hear about it. too close to the bone.

    maybe you should hire PM? i kid, i kid.

  44. #44
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    I would encourage your dogs to bark on regularly intervals for exactly 9 minutes. I would then tell your neighbor that they are so well trained that if were to become a normal, sane human being with a neighborly personality then the dogs will suddenly also become normal fun loving animals that occasionally get excited and have a fun time in their own home.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter
    Unfortunately, unless you can get the other HOA board members on your side, then at this point it is probably scorched earth or nothing (PI, lawyer, etc.). You're dealing with someone who has too much time on his hands and probably has no better entertainment than antagonizing you and your family (and sounds like he's probably intelligent enough to side-step any serious legal problems).
    Exactly my thoughts. Way too much time.

    I really thought it was all over in March when I won the mulch battle. I mean come on. It states in the covenants that you can use Gorilla Hair mulch (which was already there when i bought the house). So I refreshed the mulch with not just regular Gorilla Hair, but the $15 a yard variety designed to never leave the ground if a 100 mile an hour wind came (which by the way worked). So after spending all the landscaping money to block his view of my house, he submits a violation for the mulch. I pull out the specific line in the covenant and ask them if they want to explain. Two days later I get a letter saying a variance has been granted. Variance? For what? It's already allowed in the covenant. Just more CYA for their lies and his harassment.

    See folks. There is a whole lot more here. This is just the tip of the iceberg and for the most part, I win. So I really can't give up if my track record is standing. Yes, it is an emotional and time drain. But, I guess that's just the way I am. If I knew that the HOA was like this, I would have probably chosen a house in a different area (well, actually I did until the economy tanked and I couldn't afford it anymore). But, now it's too late and I am not going to let one 70 year old a$$hat ruin what I like.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzsean
    I would encourage your dogs to bark on regularly intervals for exactly 9 minutes. I would then tell your neighbor that they are so well trained that if were to become a normal, sane human being with a neighborly personality then the dogs will suddenly also become normal fun loving animals that occasionally get excited and have a fun time in their own home.

    That's too funny but very true. The Jeffco regs are that they can bark as much as they want all day long, but only for 10 minutes at a time. Even if they are quiet for 30 seconds and then start barking again, the clock starts over. I think that's a little nuts and would get me pissed off. Again, the dogs are not allowed out unless someone is around. Other neighbors just give them free reign all day long while they are at work. Not my dogs. And at night we supervise them because of the coyotes, so they are not barking at all after 6.

    The funny thing is that if he were to call Animal Control, guess who would answer the phone? But, he knows that. In fact we have the officers come over with the truck all the time and talk in front of the house and play with the dogs. Shoot, my kids go on all day ride-alongs with them. Ok, maybe that's a little antagonistic.

  47. #47
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    I had a neighbor tape notes on my door about my dogs barking. It stated they would "call the authorities" if it continued. I had no idea who was leaving notes on my door or what the details of the problem was until another neighbor told me who it was. I confronted her and asked about my dogs, she said they were fine dogs and they were not a problem.... so I let it slide.

    Then she waited 'til I was home and called the cops to my house. The cop wasn't happy he had to come out as my dogs were snoozing on the lawn. It was a waste of community resources for sure.

    I taped some earplugs to her door, and have not an issue since.
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  48. #48
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    We don't need no stinking attorneys, lets just mess with him!

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    IMO, you need evidence he is doing something illegal. Harassment and inciting your dogs to bark may not be legal. Get the evidence, then press charges. A lawyer might be able to guide you as to what is and is not legal, but you can probably figure it out for yourself and save some money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113
    IMO, you need evidence he is doing something illegal. Harassment and inciting your dogs to bark may not be legal. Get the evidence, then press charges. A lawyer might be able to guide you as to what is and is not legal, but you can probably figure it out for yourself and save some money.
    Agreed. First you need to visit the police station, sit down with an officer and discuss everything that this dude is doing. They can have a nice talk with him and tell him to chill or else. The primary concern is that you establish yourself first with the cops as someone who is being harassed, not that you are doing the harassing. If the dude is somewhat sane, then having the cops visit will most likely calm him down for awhile.

    Going to a lawyer is the last option because you really don't want to be involved in a case that drags on for years and costs you a lot of time and money. But, if it comes down to it, then going to the cops first will look very good in a judge's eyes.

  52. #52
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    What a PITA, Schnauzers!

    I agree with those who have stated the an attorney should be your last course of action. It's expensive and could possibly cause more conflict in the long run than what its worth, but especially more expense. Sometimes, when two people are so embroiled in a situation, it is difficult for them to see any alternatives. Your neighbor has gotten to a point that no matter what you do or say, he will construe it to be a negative and "unsupervised" discussions with him will only magnify the situation.

    Have you thought about conflict resolution? I'm not sure if this has to be court ordered or not. But sometimes, when a 3rd "unbiased" party is appointed to assess the situation, it could have positive results -- or at least calm the situation down to some degree. Although your neighbor is "using" the HOA to get at you -- it is still a personal situation. Try, if possible, to keep it there and not involve the HOA like he has. You don't want to play his game -- you want to "rise above" the crap and show that you are the better person that we all know you are!

    Anyway, just my additional $.02 worth! Good Luck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    The first day I moved in, his wife came over and got all pissy with us because we put the moving boxes out for garbage pickup and ddn't bring them to the recycling center.
    Well, have you considered the impact of your actions on the rain forests?
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  54. #54
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    While I sympathize with having a crummy neighbor I can't understand why you (or anyone) would think it is ok for dogs to bark for 9 minutes. Dogs are trainable and shock collars are very effective at training dogs not to bark.

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    I always see that crap on 9 news, you should write them a letter and see if they can make a story out of it.....

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    Speaking as a dog "liker" but not a dog owner, I can say from numerous first hand experiences that a neighbor's barking dog is pretty freakin' obnoxious. I've sold my last home and am in an apartment with a home office. The doggie downstairs (lovable little Reggie) barks nonstop when A) he's awake and his owners are off to work. He doesn't bark when B) he's asleep or his owners are home.

    I like his owners and having decent people as neighbors is a bonus. Have I complained to them about Reggie's nonstop barking? No, I'd rather have them as friends and put up with freakin' Reggie. If I complained I'd have his owners as enemies and Reggie would still be barking.

    So, Mr. Schnauzers, I don't think you have any idea whatsoever what effect your barking dogs have on any neighbor, let alone a psycho. Maybe they bark all day inside the house when you're not home, maybe you don't really bring them inside whenever they start barking. Whatever, I'm just saying that the psycho's trigger point is probably cemented to his intolerance of a dog's bark and in a way I can understand his thoughts on the matter.

    However, his wife giving you sh!t on moving day about boxes of course correctly identifies them as psycho PITAs but your barking dogs I'm sure, daily, sets them off.
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  57. #57
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    I'm a dog owner and my dogs are trained so they don't bark without a reason so they get my attention when they are barking. But with a neighbor Schauzer has I would be out there with the dogs on a regular basis at different times of the day, evening and mornings playing with the dogs to get them to bark.

    If a reasonable approach has been tried for an extended period of time then to stay sane something needs to change. Moving is one option, encouraging your neighbor to move first is another option - see who blinks first! heh - seriously though I would try the conflict resolution paths suggested definitely including discussing it with the officer on duty at your local police station.

  58. #58
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    schnauzers - have you read the bylaws to see if there's any limitations or clauses on BoD members use and possible abuse of their office? Might be a wedge to pry him out or use them against the whole board in your dealings with him.

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    Does the guy harass any others in the neighborhood? You might not be the only target, and might find some allies / ammo.

    When's his term up on the board? Maybe you, or someone else you know, could run against him.

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    Thats definitely some good advice. I have a neighbor just about the same. The first night I moved in, she came over screaming about the noise at 7:30pm. The next weekend, she calls the cops on my family and I talking in my living room on a Saturday afternoon at 2pm. (I live in a condo) She started leaving notes about "your barking dog". I sat her down, served her with a cease and desist order, explained to her that I just had gotten the puppy who was 10 weeks old and that he was going to bark a bit as he missed his mom and brothers and sisters. I am very good at training my dogs and have since gotten him to stop barking. Then she filied a complaint with the HOA that I was not spending enough time there and her heating bill went up because I didnt have my heat cranked. Crazy people will always be crazy.

    Start a log of each and everytime he messes with you. Try and go back to the beginning. A video camera would certainly help for future harrassments. Heck, carry the camera any time you go out and that alone may scare him off of messing with you. Take the log and video when you start your police complaint.

  61. #61
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    I'm looking also. I may need a good employment attorney... ?

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountains
    Well, have you considered the impact of your actions on the rain forests?
    Yes, and Global Warming .

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    schnauzers - have you read the bylaws to see if there's any limitations or clauses on BoD members use and possible abuse of their office? Might be a wedge to pry him out or use them against the whole board in your dealings with him.

    I have read those bylaws about a hundred times. I know them better than the people who wrote them. I couldn't find anything so I emailed the manager on Friday. She pointed me to the page, but it was pretty barren. I did go around to all my neighbors today. All of them said he was crazy and my neighbor across the street witnessed the entire event with my MIL. She's ready to testify.

  64. #64
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    Schnauzers, I feel your pain. It's such a frustrating and helpless feeling when someone like that is harassing you, because it feels like there's nothing you can do. it's just so stressful. Sorry that you're dealing with it.

    Unfortunately, experience has taught me that you really can't win with a person like your neighbor. Even if you bent over backwards and tried to provide redress for all of his outrageous complaints, he will always find something else to complain about. Sounds like the guy just likes picking fights. The only thing you can do is take legal action -- and you're right to do just that, because until someone stands up to him, and he's faced with real consequences for his behavior, he'll probably never stop.

    I'm stuck in a similar situation with the guy who lives below our condo in Austin. He's completely bonkers. He's retired, about 60 years old, and he NEVER leaves his condo. He just sits there and watches TV all the time, and the slightest noise or disturbance will set him off. I honestly think the guy isn't playing with a full deck -- not that I am, but this dude is like Rainman.

    When our AC went out and I was forced to run fans while waiting for the repair guy to come, he complained because he said the fans were vibrating the floor too loudly (!). He threatened one of the other owners who was sitting by the pool one day, because the pool was supposed to be closed for cleaning at the time -- she wasn't swimming, just sunning in a deck chair, and this guy took it upon himself to enforce the rules. So he chased her off brandishing a shovel. Cuckoo.

    Now that we're out of the unit and have it rented out, he's been harassing our tenant for the most ridiculous issues -- like vacuuming in the middle of the afternoon. He also constantly complains about dogs barking in "our" unit. In fact, he called the cops on "our" dog about 15 times while we lived there, and he's been doing the same thing to our tenant, who has a miniature Yorkie whose bark sounds like a muffled queef and is virtually inaudible outside the unit.

    Thing is, he's actually hearing a dog that lives across the gangway, not in our unit -- a fact that I repeatedly explained to the cops, who seemed sympathetic to my situation, but had to do their job, which entailed threatening me with a $500 ticket for noise.

    I finally decided to get some firm evidence that it wasn't **our** dog barking in case I had to fight a ticket in court. So I set up my laptop with its built-in webcam, and I started recording a video shot of our living room when I wasn't home. I wound up with hours of footage of my dog sleeping. Did he ever bark? Yes, a bit. But never enough to be a nuisance -- just one or two barks, once in a while, when he heard a car door or something. I have about two dozen time-and-date stamped QuickTime movies of my dog sleeping for hours on end. Fortunately, we got the heII out of Austin before the situation escalated, and we rented out our unit.

    Unfortunately, his harassment has now annoyed my tenant so badly that he's already told me he's not going to renew his lease. Finding a new tenant will cost us about $2,000 in rental agent fees and cleaning expenses. Our tenant has already agreed to testify that he's not renewing his lease specifically because of this guy's harassment. So once the lease is up, we're going to sue.

    It's not my preferred method of dealing with this kind of situation. But I just don't know what else we can do. I tried talking to him neighbor-to-neighbor a number of times, but like I said, he's like Rainman -- he wouldn't talk to me, he would just sort of mutter into his chest and close the door in my face. I'm kind of hoping the dude just dies.

    Anyway, Schnauzers, please keep us updated as to how this turns out for you. Maybe we can exchange notes -- if your lawyer manages to get the situation resolved, I'd love to hear how. I have to go back to Austin this spring to prepare to file our suit, and I'm dreading the trip. Any alternative paths to resolution would be most welcome.

    As it stands right now, we're kind of trapped -- any tenant who moves in will likely face the same kind of harassment from this guy, and we'll be stuck finding new tenants every year at $2K a pop. We'd love to sell the condo and just wash our hands of the situation altogether, but there are other units in the complex that are in foreclosure, so it's going to be almost impossible for a buyer to get financing for our unit. Add to that the glut of unsold condos in Austin, and it seems we're stuck.

    Ugh. Sorry for the thread hijack. This topic struck a nerve. Good luck to you, man. Keep us posted.

    PS -- out of curiosity, is your neighbor from Texas, by any chance?

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMan
    Dogs are trainable and shock collars are very effective at training dogs not to bark.
    Shock collars are cruel and abusive. People who put shock collars on their dogs should be strung up by their pubic hair, and they should not be allowed to own a dog if they can't train a dog without resorting to inflicting pain. Try putting one on yourself and see if you still think it's an acceptable way to train a dog.
    Last edited by Manmountain Dense; 01-16-2010 at 08:55 PM.

  66. #66
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    [QUOTE=
    PS -- out of curiosity, is your neighbor from Texas, by any chance? [/QUOTE]

    Wow!

    My neighbor is from California, Yeah. worse than Texas.

    The situation sounds very familiar. It is one the hardest things I deal with on a daily basis.

    Today, while I was cleaning my bike (OCD), I walked around to each house in the cul de sac to get their input on my dogs. I was very specific about the issue. Now, I have talked to them before and we are always friendly. Everyone of them said the same thing. There are other dogs barking in the neighborhood, they never see mine for more than a minute, and they have no problem with any dogs in the court. This totally contradicts what he said to my MIL (that every neighbor had an issue and hated my dogs). The really cool thing, was that when I talked to the neighbor across the street, she witnessed everything that went on with my MIL. In fact, she told me everything that went down that day before I even asked. She knew that my MIL was being harassed. She said she will be a witness if I need it. That is cool. She repeated every word in verbatim that transpired. And, she said he was standing on his porch and purposely staring at my dogs (two of the three) for five minutes. By law, that is taunting. My neighbors are cool. And one even said he's sorry that the old fart bought the place from the original owner.

    Obviously, he's probably not going anywhere. He's also not going to change, but I hope that with enough pressure he'll stop the BS and maybe I can get him off of the HOA. Not that the others are any better (3 of 5 do not work during the day).

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Wow!

    My neighbor is from California, Yeah. worse than Texas.
    The only thing worse is a Californian who's moved to Texas. That's pretty much 80% of Austin.

    I genuinely feel for you, bro. There's a long list of reasons why we left Austin, but the situation with Rainman was near the top. It's such a horribly stressful thing to deal with -- you can't feel comfortable in your own home. God. Awful. So sorry you're dealing with it.

    Maybe you and I can work out a deal to solve our mutual problems. Ever see "Strangers On A Train" -- ?

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    The only thing worse is a Californian who's moved to Texas. That's pretty much 80% of Austin.

    I genuinely feel for you, bro. There's a long list of reasons why we left Austin, but the situation with Rainman was near the top. It's such a horribly stressful thing to deal with -- you can't feel comfortable in your own home. God. Awful. So sorry you're dealing with it.

    Maybe you and I can work out a deal to solve our mutual problems. Ever see "Strangers On A Train" -- ?

    I hear ya. I can deal with it. I ignore 90% of my life (probably not a good thing) however, picking on people who don't have an outlet for retribution gets to my heart. What can I say? I'm a liberal conservative.

    I have never been to Austin (everywhere else in TX though). As a part time musician, I know what Austin is all about and how the majority function (artists and professors - love em or hate em).

  69. #69
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    $500 and an address and this thing goes quiet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    Shock collars are cruel and abusive. People who put shock collars on their dogs should be strung up by their pubic hair, and they should not be allowed to own a dog if they can't train a dog without resorting to inflicting pain. Try putting one on yourself and see if you still think it's an acceptable way to train a dog.
    Us western Colorado farmers are a different lot from city folk, that's certain.

  71. #71
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    I Will Never Own A Home With An Hoa!

    Thank god I held to my guns when I bought my house, every place our realtor took us to that had an HOA I immediately knocked $20K off the offer price, eventually he stopped showing us HOA properties. Iím now in a nice NEIGHBORHOOD with a greenway out back , on a park across from my daughters Cherry Creek school. Yes the house on the corner is red and turquoise, but itís a NEIGHBORHOOD not a development. Yesterday while breaking up the ice in the road out front, my neighbor stopped by to let me know she and my other neighbor found my 2 dogs out in the road on Thursday, they rounded them up and locked them in our back yard! GOD I LOVE NEIGHBORS, I WILL NEVER OWN A HOME WITH AN HOA!
    Sorry about your situation Schnauzers, get an RV and move up to Buff Creek year round

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    schnauzers, just move, man. You may love your neighborhood now, but is it worth the fight? Will it be the same jolly neighborhood once the fight is over?

    Suing him, or anyone, does not change their behavior, it just pads your and an attorney's pockets (if you win) and increases his hate toward you. Sure, he may stay away from you and/or be removed from the BOD, but you will have given him the motivation to retaliate to an ever greater level if he gets the chance.

    Additionally, this has the possibility to create a rift between the members of the HOA; your community. They'll be put in the position of choosing sides and while you say the majority are currently on your side, that may not always be the case. This is especially true if you end up suing the HOA and depleting the HOA fund that the entire community has been paying into since its creation. Think they'll still be on your side after there's no money left in the HOA to pay for trash and snow removal and the HOA's threatening to raise the dues? Probably not.
    Agreed.

    Another thought (and I believe that pets are part of the family), if you won't move, consider giving the dog to a friend. Sounds extreme and impossible, but not as much as hating living in your own home. The dog will be happy, you will get to see him(?), and finally enjoy some peace in your home.

    The guy just sounds like a dog hater. Even though that's "his" issue, chances are while you have that dog you will have this strife in your life. To me, it wouldn't be worth it. Peace in the home way too important.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    Speaking as a dog "liker" but not a dog owner, I can say from numerous first hand experiences that a neighbor's barking dog is pretty freakin' obnoxious. I've sold my last home and am in an apartment with a home office. The doggie downstairs (lovable little Reggie) barks nonstop when A) he's awake and his owners are off to work. He doesn't bark when B) he's asleep or his owners are home.

    I like his owners and having decent people as neighbors is a bonus. Have I complained to them about Reggie's nonstop barking? No, I'd rather have them as friends and put up with freakin' Reggie. If I complained I'd have his owners as enemies and Reggie would still be barking.

    So, Mr. Schnauzers, I don't think you have any idea whatsoever what effect your barking dogs have on any neighbor, let alone a psycho. Maybe they bark all day inside the house when you're not home, maybe you don't really bring them inside whenever they start barking. Whatever, I'm just saying that the psycho's trigger point is probably cemented to his intolerance of a dog's bark and in a way I can understand his thoughts on the matter.

    However, his wife giving you sh!t on moving day about boxes of course correctly identifies them as psycho PITAs but your barking dogs I'm sure, daily, sets them off.
    We have dogs like that too. It is a real issue in neighborhoods. And there's no good solution because people get defensive and combative on issues like these and that sucks.

    Perhaps HOAs could help by educating on dog etiquette as a matter of course, to open this discussion and help people understand that while they may have wonderful pets, they have a responsibility to keep their pets from becoming a sound nuiscance? Sending regular reminders or something, to help change/improve the attitudes of all involved?

    Impacted neighbors need some recourse, and nobody wants a fight with their neighbors. There must be a better way.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by screamingbunny
    Thank god I held to my guns when I bought my house, every place our realtor took us to that had an HOA I immediately knocked $20K off the offer price, eventually he stopped showing us HOA properties. I’m now in a nice NEIGHBORHOOD with a greenway out back , on a park across from my daughters Cherry Creek school. Yes the house on the corner is red and turquoise, but it’s a NEIGHBORHOOD not a development. Yesterday while breaking up the ice in the road out front, my neighbor stopped by to let me know she and my other neighbor found my 2 dogs out in the road on Thursday, they rounded them up and locked them in our back yard! GOD I LOVE NEIGHBORS, I WILL NEVER OWN A HOME WITH AN HOA!
    Sorry about your situation Schnauzers, get an RV and move up to Buff Creek year round
    I'm with you 100%. I told our realtor that when we were looking last time (we ultimately ended up renting; in a non-HOA neighborhood, too!). When I move next time, it'll be to a non-HOA place, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Another thought (and I believe that pets are part of the family), if you won't move, consider giving the dog to a friend. Sounds extreme and impossible, but not as much as hating living in your own home. The dog will be happy, you will get to see him(?), and finally enjoy some peace in your home.
    That's just insane. Defeatist. Weak. It's schnauzers home... getting rid of his dogs would make him miserable, feel like less of a man and only empower the bully next door.

    The guy's not a dog hater - he's a bully.

    Sorry, but that's a stupid suggestion.

  75. #75
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    one thing is for sure: crazies don't just come from california and texas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    That's just insane. Defeatist. Weak. It's schnauzers home... getting rid of his dogs would make him miserable, feel like less of a man and only empower the bully next door.

    The guy's not a dog hater - he's a bully.

    Sorry, but that's a stupid suggestion.
    No apologies necessary. IMO, looking at entering Year 5 -- of a living hell in my own home -- is the stupider alternative. In the end it's about choices and outcomes. This has absolutely nothing to do with winning or being defeated in my mind. It's about dealing with reality, and creating a better environment for yourself.

    Schnauzers can't "fix" this guy. And he's going to live next to him for the forseeable future, which could be a very long time. Take your pick.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    That's too funny but very true. The Jeffco regs are that they can bark as much as they want all day long, but only for 10 minutes at a time. Even if they are quiet for 30 seconds and then start barking again, the clock starts over.
    That's the problem with "rules" like these, unfortunately in their application they serve to antagonize and exacerbate a problem more than they do to solve one. I give you Rangers hiding in bushes.

    Not directed at you but at the regs you cited above: As a neighbor and decent person, when a person next to you has become so impacted by something in your home that they have resorted to keeping records with stop watches, I believe there is probably a personal responsibilty to do more to accommodate them. We're all neighbors right?

    We deserve to enjoy our own home. The winning/defeatist mindset the prior poster spoke towards is the fuel of toxic situations like these. Efforts to solve issues like this more effective when they are founded in education, understanding and respect for others.

    ++++++

    Edit: A thought ... what if you went over there and said something to the effect of, "I understand that my dog is an annoyance to you, and I want to apologize for that. Is there anything I can do to improve the situation for you ... short of moving or getting rid of our family dog? Because if there is, I would very much like to help." Who knows, this gesture alone might help immensly, and there might even be some reasonable accommodation you could make that you're unaware of at the moment. Your neighbor will appreciate being acknowledged and may be significantly calmed by your willingness to work with him instead of against him. Surely, at the very least, communicating will be less toxic for each of you than fighting.

    There's nothing to lose really. I hope this gets better in the new year for you. Best of luck, schnauzers!
    Last edited by TVC15; 01-17-2010 at 11:30 AM.

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    My philosophy in the whole matter is: If you don't like it, move. It works for you as well as telling others. Giving them options is key.

    Having good neighbors is key, but very hard to get sometimes when you don't know anyone when you move in. I'm fortunate to have great neighbors. Even though we don't hang out with all of our immediate ones, we always invite them to the party. Even if you don't really like them, kill them with kindness.... It may be against all that you want to do, but it works sometimes.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    My philosophy in the whole matter is: If you don't like it, move. It works for you as well as telling others. Giving them options is key.

    Having good neighbors is key, but very hard to get sometimes when you don't know anyone when you move in. I'm fortunate to have great neighbors. Even though we don't hang out with all of our immediate ones, we always invite them to the party. Even if you don't really like them, kill them with kindness.... It may be against all that you want to do, but it works sometimes.
    We are lucky to have great neighbors too. Very considerate. Consideration is key.

    Now ... if I could just convince them to remove those female cottonwood trees .......

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    dam weeds

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    dam weeds
    Exactly! And they are both ENORMOUS. Why they weren't cut down 10 years ago when they first started shedding cotton. I'll never understand. I'm lucky enough to be flanked by ... two.

    I've explained what a huge impact this is (in both spring and fall) and have offered each neighbor to pay for removal and replacement with any tree of their choice (pine trees would be sooooo nice), price is no object. No fooling! Still no takers.

    Next year I may just resort to begging, because I cannot live this way another twenty years. It's such a bummer at the peak of both seasons. But luckily they're very nice and wonderful folks. I am hopeful with some patience we can work out something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Exactly! And they are both ENORMOUS. Why they weren't cut down 10 years ago when they first started shedding cotton. I'll never understand. I'm lucky enough to be flanked by ... two.

    I've explained what a huge impact this is (in both spring and fall) and have offered each neighbor to pay for removal and replacement with any tree of their choice (pine trees would be sooooo nice), price is no object. No fooling! Still no takers.

    Next year I may just resort to begging, because I cannot live this way another twenty years. It's such a bummer at the peak of both seasons. But luckily they're very nice and wonderful folks. I am hopeful with some patience we can work out something.
    I wish you were my neighbor Does this offer stand for a "couple blocks away" neighbor? I'd definitely take you up on getting rid of our 3. I'll probably have to do it myself soon, as it's REALLY expensive, and they are close to end of life, and dying quickly.
    The shade is nice though.

    Schnauz, too bad about the old fart.
    Hope you get it worked out.
    Talked to your wife and Ian for a couple minutes at basketball the other night.
    Wouldn't have recognized her, but I recognized Ian from the 8th grade talent show a couple years ago, and from a couple of your picture posts. My son was practicing he same time as your other child.
    Old Codger

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad andy!
    I wish you were my neighbor Does this offer stand for a "couple blocks away" neighbor? I'd definitely take you up on getting rid of our 3. I'll probably have to do it myself soon, as it's REALLY expensive, and they are close to end of life, and dying quickly.
    The shade is nice though.
    In one case shade isn't really a benefit, so I was hoping they'd go for it -- as far as I can tell they're just relucant to cut it down because it's "alive" believe it or not. The other one shade kinda is a benefit so I understand their reluctance a little more.

    But in both cases each of these neighbors only have to deal with one of these damn things -- while we have to deal with two, on oppositive ends and sides of the house! Add to that the unique and predictable wind patterns off the mountain and we are hit with more of each tree's fallout than either neighbor is.

    I really think they don't experience it as badly as we do, because we're in a uniquely bad spot between the trees. I'm HAPPY to pay, chomping at the bit to do it, and have already set aside a ridiculous budget in case I get lucky one day. I just want to enjoy the best seasons without such a headache -- eventually. If begging doesn't work, I'm not too proud to elevate this thing to crying. Something's gotta give sometime.

    Although this offer has a limited delivery area, if you need to borrow any landscape tools, we have EVERYTHING. Serious chainsaws and access to a Fargo chipper. Just say the word ...

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    wow

    lots of horror stories on here, makes me feel lucky for all the nice neighbors I've had over the years. I've always tried to meet the neighbors next to any property I've purchased before I sealed the deal. In one case I weaseled my way into the HOA meeting to see what the dynamic was like with that group. Now that I live on acreage, I plan on never moving back to high density housing. I like having neighbors that you don't have to see everyday unless you want to, and I can turn my amp up to 11 anytime I want.

    Good luck, that guy sounds like a total tool.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMan
    Us western Colorado farmers are a different lot from city folk, that's certain.
    Yes, evidently you're freaks who get your yayas by torturing your pets. Seriously. Put one on your own neck and then tell me it's acceptable.

    Would you put a shock collar on a crying baby?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    That's the problem with "rules" like these, unfortunately in their application they serve to antagonize and exacerbate a problem more than they do to solve one. I give you Rangers hiding in bushes.

    Not directed at you but at the regs you cited above: As a neighbor and decent person, when a person next to you has become so impacted by something in your home that they have resorted to keeping records with stop watches, I believe there is probably a personal responsibilty to do more to accommodate them. We're all neighbors right?

    We deserve to enjoy our own home. The winning/defeatist mindset the prior poster spoke towards is the fuel of toxic situations like these. Efforts to solve issues like this more effective when they are founded in education, understanding and respect for others.

    ++++++

    Edit: A thought ... what if you went over there and said something to the effect of, "I understand that my dog is an annoyance to you, and I want to apologize for that. Is there anything I can do to improve the situation for you ... short of moving or getting rid of our family dog? Because if there is, I would very much like to help." Who knows, this gesture alone might help immensly, and there might even be some reasonable accommodation you could make that you're unaware of at the moment. Your neighbor will appreciate being acknowledged and may be significantly calmed by your willingness to work with him instead of against him. Surely, at the very least, communicating will be less toxic for each of you than fighting.

    There's nothing to lose really. I hope this gets better in the new year for you. Best of luck, schnauzers!
    I agree 100% that barking is a nuisance. I don't like when I hear the neighbors dog. And that's my point. It is not my dogs that are causing the problem. I do not let them bark for more than 30 seconds. He doesn't like that my dog run faces the front of his house. That's really what it is about. I treat my doggie more like a regular door. Dogs go out, do their business, come back in, and the door is closed. The don't get free reign in and out all day. That's why I say it is not my dogs barking that has him irked.

    I did try and talk to him nicely when I received the first violation. In fact, I said I was sorry he didn't like my dogs. When I refused to put electric bark collars on them, he slammed the door in my face.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    Yes, evidently you're freaks who get your yayas by torturing your pets. Seriously. Put one on your own neck and then tell me it's acceptable.

    Would you put a shock collar on a crying baby?
    Stupid question.

    Seriously, I used to think like you did. Then I was talking to one of the Monks at New Skete, world renown breeders and trainers of world class German Shepherd Dogs. He recommended that I use a sport collar for off lead training. When expressed my surprise, he also said that the older, original generation of collars were kind of barbaric - as you assume all collars still are (pretty much on (ZZZZZAAAPPP!) or off) but the new ones with multiple level settings and timers/limiters are very tame and humane.

    Now, if a Brother of the Monks of New Skete recommends this (and he had two very specific brands), they can't be all bad.

    [end hijack]

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    I'm fortunate to have a non-intrusive HOA and friendly neighbors, who have all lived here 10 years or more. I'm new, but they all are very welcoming. I can imagine your frustration. That would drive me nuts!

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    Thanks Skiah,

    It's nice to hear about it from one who is informed. I have used a few of the training collars on my bird dogs. I have even shocked myself with them to test it out. A shock collar is not in the same league as a taser, nor is an electric fence. I wouldn't be dumb enough to shock a baby, or to compare a dog to one either. Perhaps shock collars should be used on dog owners instead, when their dog barks, a small but noticable shock would be delivered to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    Stupid question.

    Seriously, I used to think like you did. Then I was talking to one of the Monks at New Skete, world renown breeders and trainers of world class German Shepherd Dogs. He recommended that I use a sport collar for off lead training. When expressed my surprise, he also said that the older, original generation of collars were kind of barbaric - as you assume all collars still are (pretty much on (ZZZZZAAAPPP!) or off) but the new ones with multiple level settings and timers/limiters are very tame and humane.

    Now, if a Brother of the Monks of New Skete recommends this (and he had two very specific brands), they can't be all bad.

    [end hijack]

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    Stupid question.

    Seriously, I used to think like you did. Then I was talking to one of the Monks at New Skete, world renown breeders and trainers of world class German Shepherd Dogs. He recommended that I use a sport collar for off lead training. When expressed my surprise, he also said that the older, original generation of collars were kind of barbaric - as you assume all collars still are (pretty much on (ZZZZZAAAPPP!) or off) but the new ones with multiple level settings and timers/limiters are very tame and humane.

    Now, if a Brother of the Monks of New Skete recommends this (and he had two very specific brands), they can't be all bad.

    [end hijack]
    I have miniature schnauzers and a Wheaton. They bark. That's what dogs do, especially the breeds I have. They are known for being very protective of their home. I know they bark and that is why they are indoor dogs. The only time they go out is to do their business or play ball with me. I am not putting a shock collar on a 14 pound dog.

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    One thing I learned from this thread - - - skiahh seems to be the authority on all things stupid!!
    Old Codger

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Schnauzers can't "fix" this guy. And he's going to live next to him for the forseeable future, which could be a very long time. Take your pick.
    I can wait him out. He's old.

    Eventually, he'll have to move to assisted living. Then they'll bring in dogs to make the seniors happy.

    My dogs are my dogs. They are not going anywhere. I have them because I love them. I have had many dogs over the past years. Most of them rescues and everyone of them special.

    He's going to be a D-Bag. I know that. He will always have a problem with me dogs or no dogs. The damage has been done. I can deal with him. I'm relentless. What I can't deal with is his harassing an 82 year old woman, That is unacceptable and correctable.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMan
    Thanks Skiah,

    It's nice to hear about it from one who is informed. I have used a few of the training collars on my bird dogs. I have even shocked myself with them to test it out. A shock collar is not in the same league as a taser, nor is an electric fence. I wouldn't be dumb enough to shock a baby, or to compare a dog to one either. Perhaps shock collars should be used on dog owners instead, when their dog barks, a small but noticable shock would be delivered to them.
    I see your points. However, a Bird Dog and Shepard are much more powerful dogs than a Miniature Schnauzer. I had a Springer Spaniel (a 70lb crazy one at that). Much more difficult to control.

  94. #94
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    My point in comparing a crying baby with a barking dog is simply that pain is a terrible way to teach any lesson, particularly when the subject lacks the critical thinking skills and self-awareness of an adult human. A crying baby no more knows why it's crying than a dog knows why it's barking. It's just instinct. Punishing a dog, or a baby, for doing what comes naturally won't fix the behavior -- it will just turn it mean. And a shock collar is just that: punishment.

    Positive reinforcement of desired behavior is the only effective and humane way to train a dog. Negative reinforcement only works when it's directly and explicitly associated with the unwanted behavior, and then followed by positive reinforcement of the desired behavior. That's why it's entirely useless to correct a dog for pissing on the rug by rubbing its nose in it an hour after the fact. You have to catch it in the act, and **immediately** demonstrate the desired behavior instead, which you then reinforce positively. Meaning: The dog starts to pee, you see it as it happens and correct the dog in a firm voice, then take it outside. When it then pees outside, you give it a treat. You have to make very clear to the dog: "Don't do this -- this is bad. Do this instead, this is good."

    It's a complex interaction, and it only works if you follow the correction with positive reinforcement of good behavior. A shock collar can't praise a dog for being quiet -- it can only punish the dog for barking. That's a great way to turn out a mean, skittish dog. But it's a lousy way to stop it from barking.

    You cannot expect a dog, on its own, to logically connect the shock from the collar to barking. We cannot know what's really happening inside a dog's mind. They see the world far differently than we do. A human might put two and two together, but that's not necessarily the way a dog thinks.

    For example, if a dog is barking at a stranger standing outside the window, and that dog receives a shock, it might very well associate the shock with the presence of the stranger, not with the barking. If that happens, it will teach the dog to fear and dislike strange people, which could lead to biting or aggression toward strangers. Without a clear and unambiguous connection between the shock and the barking, there's no telling how the dog will interpret the situation.

    Relying on a dog to puzzle out that "barking = shock" on its own is akin to spanking a child without explaining why -- or spanking a baby who lacks the capacity to understand why it's being spanked. That's not training. It's abuse. And it's a lazy cop-out approach to dog training. Raising a well-behaved dog is a labor of love, and it requires a commitment. If one lacks the time and patience to train a dog properly through positive reinforcement, then they shouldn't own a dog.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    Positive reinforcement of desired behavior is the only effective and humane way to train a dog. Negative reinforcement only works when it's directly and explicitly associated with the unwanted behavior, and then followed by positive reinforcement of the desired behavior.
    So true. This stuff works on cats too believe it or not. I've successfully taught cats to not claw furniture and actually use their scratching post. I've also taught them to come in with a call (for the most part...) by holding a cheering committee when they run in. Who knew they responded so much to praise?

    The key words of course being "desired behavior." I have a neighbor who keeps their dog outside and when it barks too much or too long gives it dog treats to (I assume) to shut it up. They have this concept working too, just in the wrong direction.

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    I have been living in the foothills for many years, no HOA, and while there are some major inconveniences around living here, every time I hear a story like this, I remember WHY I live up here.

    Never buy a house anywhere that you can't pee off your deck.

    Think about it.

    As for your situation, I have no solution. I once served on the HOA of a large acreage subdivision in Park County. A couple years of that, and I realized that:

    1) About 10% of people are total control freak whack jobs.
    2) They all want to serve on the HOA board.

    If you can't counterbalance the whacks with some sanes on your HOA board, you are screwed. Control freak whacks are ATTRACTED to communities with HOAs and covenants, so they can fil their empty lives with *****ing about their neighbors. Best to stay out of their paths by living in a house without that HOA/covenant strings attached, and preferably on enough land that what your neighbor does makes no difference.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit
    I have been living in the foothills for many years, no HOA, and while there are some major inconveniences around living here, every time I hear a story like this, I remember WHY I live up here.

    Never buy a house anywhere that you can't pee off your deck.

    Think about it.

    As for your situation, I have no solution. I once served on the HOA of a large acreage subdivision in Park County. A couple years of that, and I realized that:

    1) About 10% of people are total control freak whack jobs.
    2) They all want to serve on the HOA board.

    If you can't counterbalance the whacks with some sanes on your HOA board, you are screwed. Control freak whacks are ATTRACTED to communities with HOAs and covenants, so they can fil their empty lives with *****ing about their neighbors. Best to stay out of their paths by living in a house without that HOA/covenant strings attached, and preferably on enough land that what your neighbor does makes no difference.
    Wow! You and me think the same thing. After going to the first meeting I realized that everyone on that BoD had low self esteems. Exactly. They need some way to elevate themselves over others and they can't do that in a normal daily life.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    I have read those bylaws about a hundred times. I know them better than the people who wrote them. I couldn't find anything so I emailed the manager on Friday. She pointed me to the page, but it was pretty barren. I did go around to all my neighbors today. All of them said he was crazy and my neighbor across the street witnessed the entire event with my MIL. She's ready to testify.
    I have spent the last 7 years on our HOA board. Most of them as President. Typically, how many people show up for the meetings and how many homes are represented? How long is the BoD terms of office? Next time he is up for re-newel, bring a $hitload of proxies and vote someone else in (yourself maybe) and get him off the BoD.

    Seriously, the HOA has very little bite anymore. Don't let them push you around. I would get to know your covenants front-back so you know when they are overstepping their bounds. If they try to fine you you'll have more ammuntion on your harrassment/discrimination lawsuit against the BoDd.
    I just got food poisoning. I'm not sure when I'll use it - Steven Wright

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    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zfijzsKvVis&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zfijzsKvVis&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaker13
    I have spent the last 7 years on our HOA board. Most of them as President. Typically, how many people show up for the meetings and how many homes are represented? How long is the BoD terms of office? Next time he is up for re-newel, bring a $hitload of proxies and vote someone else in (yourself maybe) and get him off the BoD.

    Seriously, the HOA has very little bite anymore. Don't let them push you around. I would get to know your covenants front-back so you know when they are overstepping their bounds. If they try to fine you you'll have more ammuntion on your harrassment/discrimination lawsuit against the BoDd.
    Of the six meetings I attended, there were the same three homeowners. Two party queen yentas (the ones who feel the need to organize relentless community events) and myself. I have studied the ByLaws, Covenants, minutes, agendas, and every other piece of paper front, back, and sideways. I know the rules better than they do, which is why I have caught them in direct conflict time and time again. The kicker is that you need 67% of the homeowners (or their proxy) to physically show up at a meeting in order to vote. As a country, we don't even get 40% of the American public to vote for president of the US and they have all day to do that. Terms are one year. If I was ever able to get in there and have 67% of the homeowners, my first and only item up for vote would be to abolish the HOA.

    To give you another idea of what goes on, the ByLaws state a homeowner can ask for any document managed by the HOA. So, I asked for a list of all violations within six months. They told me to make an appointment with the management company, which I did. Since it was down the road from my office, I made it for lunch time. How long should it take to get this? After 30 minutes of waiting, the "records clerk" comes out and tells me the HOA won't release it. That is why I recorded the meetings. The lies and unethical practices that go on are astounding. Finally after ranting at the next meeting, I get a list two weeks later devoid of who was served a violation. Basically, a piece of paper that showed violation type and how many. Do you really think I believe it was genuine? Again, tip of the iceberg here. It goes on and on and on.

    I did finally get the name and address list of all homeowners after asking continuously. I never acted on it though since things seemed to have cooled down. Then, he starts up again after 8 months. I suppose I could snail mail the whole community and let them know what is happening. It's a couple hundred homes.

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