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  1. #1
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    OSAC Meeting Information (Jeffco Open Space)

    I would encourage all of you to attend the OSAC (Open Space Advisory Council) meetings to voice any concerns regarding mountain biking on our beloved open space.

    The 2008 schedule is here:

    http://www.jeffco.us/jeffco/openspac...c_schedule.pdf

    I'm not sure why the July 23rd meeting was posted (its not in their regular program), I wonder why this was....

    July 23rd's discussion had a topic we all should have been around for:
    http://www.jeffco.us/jeffco/openspac...ing7_23_08.pdf
    -more specifically, 'Policy Discussion"...

    Next meeting is: August 7th @ 7pm

    The Open Space Advisory Committee makes recommendations regarding Open Space policy and procedures to the Board of County Commissioners. This committee meets at the Open Space Administrative Offices.

    Jefferson County Open Space
    Voice: 303-271-5925
    Fax: 303-271-5955

    Jefferson County Open Space Advisory Committee
    Open Space Administrative Office
    700 Jefferson County Parkway, Suite 100
    Golden, CO 80401
    Last edited by IndecentExposure; 07-24-2008 at 12:53 PM.

  2. #2
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    Thanks for posting the schedule! I went and looked up where they meet (since I didn't know):

    The Open Space Advisory Committee makes recommendations regarding Open Space policy and procedures to the Board of County Commissioners. This committee meets at the Open Space Administrative Offices.

    Jefferson County Open Space
    Voice: 303-271-5925
    Fax: 303-271-5955

    Jefferson County Open Space Advisory Committee
    Open Space Administrative Office
    700 Jefferson County Parkway, Suite 100
    Golden, CO 80401

  3. #3
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    thanks, I edited mine. I should have had that in there.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    I'm not sure why the July 23rd meeting was posted (its not in their regular program), I wonder why this was....
    just a guess, but seeing as how the scheduled meeting was for july 3rd, i suspect they postponed for the 4th of july holiday.

    going forward:
    • 08/07/08 5:30 p.m. 7:00 p.m. Study Session Regular Session
    • 08/13/08 4:30 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. BCC/OSAC Meeting
    • 09/04/08 5:30 p.m. 7:00 p.m. Study Session Regular Session
    • 10/02/08 5:30 p.m. 7:00 p.m. Study Session Regular Session
    • 11/06/08 5:30 p.m. 7:00 p.m. Study Session Regular Session
    • 12/04/08 5:30 p.m. 7:00 p.m. Study Session Regular Session
    • 12/10/08 5:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. Joint BCC/OSAC Meeting (Holiday Dinner)
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  5. #5
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    are there specific agendas at these meetings? or are they just open discussions?
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

  6. #6
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    Does anyone know where we can find minutes from previous meetings?

    Good work posting this!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia
    are there specific agendas at these meetings? or are they just open discussions?
    there are indeed agendas to be followed... but since i'm not on the policy committee, i'm not sure what's involved w/ getting an item officially placed on the agenda. that said, there is a public comment aspect, so as long as you arrive before the meeting starts and sign-in, you can talk about whatever you wish.
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  8. #8
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    Thanks for posting. I'll try and make the 8/7 meeting.

  9. #9
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    Can the mods sticky this thread?

    Please?
    Last edited by Pau11y; 07-24-2008 at 02:40 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    I would encourage all of you to attend the OSAC (Open Space Advisory Council) meetings to voice any concerns regarding mountain biking on our beloved open space.
    Danke schoen

    Unfortunately (and I do mean unfortunately), I will be in NJ on 8/7. I have the 9/4 meeting on my calendar and I will be there. IE, if there is no specific agenda items already on the OSAC agenda for us to discuss while we're there, what should we as mtb attendees come prepared to communicate to them? Should we come up with a group statement/list of issues here every month? Is that helpful or overkill?



    Sorry to ask even more questions, just trying to get a clearer picture of exactly what we need to achieve. Perhaps it's just mtb bodies in the gallery, able to listen, show committment, and stay abreast of JCOS goings on. If it's that simple, this should be easy.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Should we come up with a group statement/list of issues here every month? Would that be helpful or overkill?
    Helpful. For a few reasons I've not the time to flesh out right now, so in short:

    1. Representing those who cannot attend the meeting.
    2. Representing those who aren't really into public speaking.
    3. Keeping a meeting running into the wee hours of the evening with 30 people saying the exact thing.
    4. Having an articulate, rational figurehead reflects on us well.
    5. Prevents someone from forgetting to bring up an issue because another goes on a tangent, ect.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by athalliah
    Helpful. For a few reasons I've not the time to flesh out right now, so in short:

    1. Representing those who cannot attend the meeting.
    2. Representing those who aren't really into public speaking.
    3. Keeping a meeting running into the wee hours of the evening with 30 people saying the exact thing.
    4. Having an articulate, rational figurehead reflects on us well.
    5. Prevents someone from forgetting to bring up an issue because another goes on a tangent, ect.
    Great points and it is worth taking a few minutes to be coordinated on these details. It is often a good idea to have one or two persons serve as a spokesperson for a group with some agreed upon messaging points. It is often a good idea to have all the people who are in attendance stand up for a moment to show the strength in numbers before the spokesperson(s) delivers their remarks.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Danke schoen

    Unfortunately (and I do mean unfortunately), I will be in NJ on 8/7. I have the 9/4 meeting on my calendar and I will be there. IE, if there is no specific agenda items already on the OSAC agenda for us to discuss while we're there, what should we as mtb attendees come prepared to communicate to them? Should we come up with a group statement/list of issues here every month? Is that helpful or overkill?



    Sorry to ask even more questions, just trying to get a clearer picture of exactly what we need to achieve. Perhaps it's just mtb bodies in the gallery, able to listen, show committment, and stay abreast of JCOS goings on. If it's that simple, this should be easy.
    I agree we all need to be clear about what we want to present and not seem like a scattered group with a bunch of different agendas..

    i plan on making as many meetings as i can.. probably can't make 8/7 though as i have visitors in town.. damn..
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by gotdirt
    there are indeed agendas to be followed... but since i'm not on the policy committee, i'm not sure what's involved w/ getting an item officially placed on the agenda. that said, there is a public comment aspect, so as long as you arrive before the meeting starts and sign-in, you can talk about whatever you wish.

    Could someone, say tvc15 as an example, send in a written comment for the public comment period?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia
    I agree we all need to be clear about what we want to present and not seem like a scattered group with a bunch of different agendas..
    But... but... that's exactly what we mt bikers ARE.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
    Could someone, say tvc15 as an example, send in a written comment for the public comment period?
    I'd be happy to write one with everybody's input and ideas, although I'll be in NJ on 8/7, so somebody else would have to present it. We could keep it concise, we could make it effective. Everybody's got really good ideas here.

    You know, we could draft one with our ideas monthly, or quarterly, whatever makes sense. And I'd be happy to do that. And we could take turns attending meetings and take turns on who presents whatever statements we create.

    I still think the simple weight of our user group's public presence at OSAC meetings has immense value; and consistent, visual, community representation there is helpful and necessary to our cause. But we want to sustain this momentum, so I think it's wise to coordinate some method (sign up sheets?) to ensure we are sharing the efforts as widely as we can. The problem is four, ten or twenty people get excited, then burned out. With a little thought and planning we can avoid that and keep our worthy efforts going.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15

    Sorry to ask even more questions, just trying to get a clearer picture of exactly what we need to achieve. Perhaps it's just mtb bodies in the gallery, able to listen, show committment, and stay abreast of JCOS goings on. If it's that simple, this should be easy.


    This is a step in the right direction. There are public comment sessions in the beginning of these meetings and you can learn a lot if you just observe. You might actually feel inspired to get up and talk, but just be sure you sign up on the sheet before the meeting and put a check-mark in the box where they ask if you want to comment. If people could be as detailed and articulate at an OSAC meeting as they have been on this forum, that would be something positive.

    I've been to meetings in the past but burnt out. It would be great to see some new people involved who are motivated and passionate.

    One thing that shows the ridicvulousness of this situation did occur to me: There ws a lot of talk, especially during the North table Mountain discussions about user groups staying on the trail vs going off trail. There was a report where all 3 user groups were essentialy assigned the same level of "impact" on the trail as each other. One reason hikers were assigned more impact than they might otherwise have earned is becouse they are more likely to go off-trail than a biker. So, how stupid is it that these rangers are way off-trail setting up anti-MTB ambushes? Seems like they are "cutting off their noses to spite their faces".
    Last edited by hardtail05; 07-24-2008 at 05:58 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Danke schoen

    Sorry to ask even more questions, just trying to get a clearer picture of exactly what we need to achieve. Perhaps it's just mtb bodies in the gallery, able to listen, show committment, and stay abreast of JCOS goings on. If it's that simple, this should be easy.
    What does every mountain biker want? Here is a forum in which you can ask about policy. Here is a forum in which you can inquire about the recent trail work. If for some reason its out of line, ask them when it can be. IF they say it needs to be a agenda item, ask how you put it on there. If they say 'go to the Trail Use Task force', then come back with why they don't represent us, and why its so difficult to get their attention.

    Many people are represented there, including the Rangers. Here is where you get your word out.

    I may inquire about an agenda item, I may not. Regardless, I might just ask out of the blue for directional bike trails. Why not? can't hurt. Its the voice that's important.

    As to your long and well crafted email? Speak it live to them! Where are the rules, the education, and the definitions? We can only inquire.

    I go to many of these, some aren't even MTB related, but I go anyway to find out what's going on. They acquire and trade land deals all the time, trails will go in as they see fit... no public comment? No problem, they'll just forge ahead. There's new properties that I want to ride on, and its good to be in the know.

    Go for it, or not.... sometimes these meetings will just bore the crap out of you. But I'll bet that if one mountain biker gets up and takes a stand, others will be right behind them.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    What does every mountain biker want? Here is a forum in which you can ask about policy. Here is a forum in which you can inquire about the recent trail work. If for some reason its out of line, ask them when it can be. IF they say it needs to be a agenda item, ask how you put it on there.
    Awesome. Thanks for clarifying. These OSAC meetings will be an awesome resource!

    Quote Originally Posted by IE
    If they say 'go to the Trail Use Task force', then come back with why they don't represent us, and why its so difficult to get their attention.
    For this reason alone, we need to be there at every meeting until that situation changes. We need to make it clear and on the record that while a TUTF may exist, the mtb community at large does not believe it is being represented through it, certainly not adequately enough. We need to request that OSAC either put more MTB reps on it, or better yet, that at least one of our MTB reps always be a person of official standing in the biking community, (perhaps a leader within COMBA/IMBA or other recognized cycling-related organizations or businesses on the front range), who has the ability, vigor, and commitment to communicate with large number of mtbers, to ensure that our TUTF representation is more than just one cyclist's opinion.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    perhaps a leader within COMBA/IMBA or other recognized cycling-related organizations or businesses on the front range),
    FWIW. I do believe one of the 3 TUFT member IS a COMBA board member. Can someone confirm (or deny) that and a name?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia
    I agree we all need to be clear about what we want to present and not seem like a scattered group with a bunch of different agendas..

    i plan on making as many meetings as i can.. probably can't make 8/7 though as i have visitors in town.. damn..
    Its okay if you can't make a meeting. we all have obligations and things going on. But now you can look ahead, put the next one in the calendar, and go forward.

    However, on the one voice thing... I'm not a fan. If one person gets up and say's it, its only one person. If many people have many different ways to approach it, you'd be suprised as to what might get through.

    That said, you should write down key points other than "yeah, hikers suck and we want to go fast and huck."

    Comba can voice their opinion. Even though I'm a member, they take a very nice political stand. great. It comes out professional, well thought through, but inpersonal and dry. I like to collect the data of the meeting and then go forward and ask questions. I stand for me, a Golden and Jeffco Resident, and for us, a mountain biker population. You may not agree with all the things I say, but trust me, the council enjoys people talking from the heart and with passion.

    I for one will start asking for directional biking trails. Want to end conflict and yeilding? Then give us something that will keep us off the main trail. Keep the original open for all, but all those of us that like some fun technical stuff and like to let off on the brakes a little for flow.

    Why not? what would be the harm? There's tons of Hiker only places, but even then the hiker's don't use them. I'd ask for a trail to be built as a test trail only. It doesn't need to be hard core, but something a lot, if not all of mtbr's can make it down. The issues that arise from yeilding aren't from this board, but more from new people that just don't know!

    And yes, I for one want some gawd-damed clarification on Yielding. If I get a ticket for doing something I should, I'd be super pissed much like TVC and the others are.

    And then, I have my own issues with living adjacent to open space that aren't biker related.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    That said, you should write down key points other than "yeah, hikers suck and we want to go fast and huck."
    I think having similar talking points but with different takes/opinions is helpful. 30 people going on about 30 different things will result in nothing getting done due to a lack of focus IMO.

    It's also worth noting that OSAC will also shut down 30 people in row trying to enumerate 5 talking points without variation. They simply won't let all the talking time to be used that way. I've watched it happen in the past where the politely asked if anyone had anything different to say, and if you didn't, you didn't get to go to the mic.
    The more out of shape you are, the steeper the hill looks.

  23. #23
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    I couldn't find the notes from a more recent meeting, but here is a link to the minutes from a 2007 TUTF meeting. There are a lot of very interesting things going on in this meeting including the people who attended.

    Reading this while knowing what has transpired is pretty interesting. It also indicates that there may have been another TUFT meeting in June but so far I can't find the notes from that.

    https://www.co.jefferson.co.us/jeffc...7__minutes.pdf

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibmkidIII
    FWIW. I do believe one of the 3 TUFT member IS a COMBA board member. Can someone confirm (or deny) that and a name?
    confirmed (Peter Morales, alternate, is COMBA president)

    from http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/opensp...e_T56_R127.htm :

    Significant increase in park attendance coupled with changing types of trail use were indicators of a need for Open Space to develop a formal trail management plan. Initial public meetings concerning the development of a Trail Use Action Plan led to the creation of the Trail Use Task Force in October of 1995.

    This group is made up of citizen volunteers from the majority user groups (equestrian, hiker and mountain biker), Open Space Advisory Committee representatives, and Open Space Staff representatives. The purpose of the Trail Use Task Force is to utilize the expertise of the different user groups to develop some solutions to trail conflicts that people have been experiencing.


    Citizen Members of the Trail Use Task Force include:

    Biking Representatives:

    * Dave Cohen
    * Tim Morrison
    * Dawn Peterson, Alternate
    * Joe Hendrickson, Alternate
    * Peter Morales, Alternate
    * Craig Topp, Alternate


    Equestrian Representatives:

    * Nancy Hathaway
    * Ann Smith
    * John Lind
    * Idalyn Foley
    * Doug Torza, Alternate


    Hiker Representatives:

    * Adam Feerst
    * Tookie Scherder, Alternate
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotdirt
    This group is made up of citizen volunteers from the majority user groups (equestrian, hiker and mountain biker), Open Space Advisory Committee representatives, and Open Space Staff representatives. The purpose of the Trail Use Task Force is to utilize the expertise of the different user groups to develop some solutions to trail conflicts that people have been experiencing.

    Citizen Members of the Trail Use Task Force include:

    Biking Representatives:

    * Dave Cohen
    * Tim Morrison
    * Dawn Peterson, Alternate
    * Joe Hendrickson, Alternate
    * Peter Morales, Alternate
    * Craig Topp, Alternate
    Thanks GD! Some questions though ...

    - How often are these positions updated? I think anything longer than a 2-year term for any TUFT representative is unwarranted and unwise.

    - Are most/all TUTF meetings open to the public? They should be, as our representatives they speak for us, so they should be open to us. If the TUFT meeting dates are not currentlly publicly posted and conducted in a public place inviting any mtber to attend, they should be in the future. How can we make that happen? While I understand, there may be an infrequent need for a "closed door meeting" occasionally, but by and large regular TUTF meetings should be done enthusiastically open to public participation. Otherwise, the effect of the TUFT actually is to reduce input from the public under a simple guise of participation.

    - Who approves the TUFT representatives? How are TUFT selections made (qualfications, process, etc)?

    I better stop typing now before I end up with another 4 page letter.
    Last edited by TVC15; 07-25-2008 at 01:42 PM.

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