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  1. #1
    Medicine Wheel Guy
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    One Aggro DHer...

    is NOT happy with Mr. Philips' latest writeup:

    http://gazetteoutthere.blogspot.com/...are-angry.html

    While I can understand he might have been a little peeved about "his" trail being publicized, this kind of response does nobody any good.

  2. #2
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  3. #3
    eci
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    wow, ive known about said trail for a while and honestly its not for the faint of heart. This is gonna attract some 16 yo dumb kid who will loose his brakes and then the trail is closed. HOOORRRRAY!

  4. #4
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    ^^ agreed. I haven't seen the trail before, but some things are better left untold.

    Sounds pretty badass though.
    ..:: sleestak ::..
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  5. #5
    Gaa-zee-raaaa!
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    Yeah - what an aggro downhiller, the nerve of some people. Say, ever wonder why there aren't more of us aggro types bombing the shite out of trails like Apex? Think it might have something to do with the existence of more appropriate spots? Nah, couldn't be.

    I love how the pompous clown who wrote the original piece feels the need to belittle the (understandably) upset DHer who wrote in, over his spelling. What a class act.

    The only one served by this brand of stupidity is Mr. Phillips, hopefully he enjoys the new found street cred (among those who are too stupid to know better) that comes with outing somebody's stash.
    Now with more vitriol!

  6. #6
    Your retarded
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    Martlet and Drop the Seat, I realize that your links are intended to be helpful and provide insight into what this thread is about, but would you please remove them? I ask because this trail does not need the extra publicity and your links are unintentionally giving it just that. Thank you.
    A trail that’s too difficult wouldn’t exist because it’d never be used. But, trails can exist that’re too difficult for you.

  7. #7
    Shoulda went faster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    Martlet and Drop the Seat, I realize that your links are intended to be helpful and provide insight into what this thread is about, but would you please remove them? I ask because this trail does not need the extra publicity and your links are unintentionally giving it just that. Thank you.

    I second that. Please remove the links.

  8. #8
    !Vamos, flaco!
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    Are you kidding me? Pretending that this trail doesn't exist when, apparently, anyone who might want to ride it in the Springs area knows about it, is ridiculous. If a report can sniff it out, I'm thinking any savvy bike kid can find it pretty easy. This is a trail that is "an old route that’s been on local maps for decades, and may date back to the era of the stagecoach." If it's dangerous, or potentially dangerous, it needs to be treated as such publically, like the free ride trail off the Lunch Loop in Grand Junction. Pushing it underground isn't going to help the sport.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  9. #9
    Rolling
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    George Bush will delete it for you ya.

  10. #10
    !Vamos, flaco!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    I love how the pompous clown who wrote the original piece feels the need to belittle the (understandably) upset DHer who wrote in, over his spelling. What a class act.

    The only one served by this brand of stupidity is Mr. Phillips, hopefully he enjoys the new found street cred (among those who are too stupid to know better) that comes with outing somebody's stash.
    To be fair, the DH guy as belittling him for doing his job as a reporter. Neither too the high road.

    Wouldn't it be better for everyone to have a properly sanctioned trail to exist safely into the future for us and future users, as opposed to a secret one?
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  11. #11
    !Vamos, flaco!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    George Bush will delete if you ya.
    McCain just wants to be friends with the trail and Obama wants to talk to it.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  12. #12
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    I Heart Dave Phillips

    Thanks for posting the links please keep them up. I am riding this with 20- 30 of my joe blow buddies tonight. We are tuning our Next and Pacifica bikes as we speak.

    Colorado Springs riding is now destroyed forever.

  13. #13
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    I think Phillips has a good point in the fact that the trail is on a map, so the whole illegal/public thing is debateable.

    But, as a gravity guy, I feel for the DH'ers who maintain "their" trail and its secret, only to see a piece on it written up for the public to see. I'd be pissed too.

    If all of us gravity types would stop building super secret stashes to satisfy themselves and start coming together as a community, and get legitimate, legal gnar trails, this type of stuff might dissappear. Canada did it. Why can't we? Eh?
    Biker? I don't even know her.

  14. #14
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    truthfully George W has blockaded the entire south side of the springs to prevent riders from approaching this top secret trail. I would remove all links before the CIA breaks down your door.

    http://outdoors.coloradosprings.com/...ils.php?id=106 oops

  15. #15
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    Crosspost from the other thread on this story:

    Bashing the reporter, who genuinely seems like a proponent of MTB, is to engage in a kind of localism/territorialism that reflects poorly on mountain biking and mountain bikers. It's really too bad if that is what MTBing is degenerating to on the Front Range, though I guess it is a predictable trend. The only ones who end up looking like "poop stains" are folks doing damage to the feel-good vibe that generally permeates the sport.

  16. #16
    Colorado
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    This is perhaps the most insane trail in the region -- an old route that’s been on local maps for decades, and may date back to the era of the stagecoach, it has been co-opted by mountain bikers who have added jumps and other stunts.

    To Get There: From I-25 take exit 138,, Circle Drive. Go west on Circle Drive until it becomes Lake Avenue. At the foot of the Broadmoor hotel, go left around a traffic circle onto Lake Circle, which becomes Portales Road. Veer right onto Mirada Road, which raps to the west, becoming West Cheyenne Mountain Boulevard, then Old Stage Road. Where Old Stage turns to dirt, reset your odometer. Drive just over 3.8 miles to a small pull-off on the right next to a U.S. Forest Service regulations sign. Park here.

    Trip Log: Insanely technical and steep. 5.1 miles, 1,540 feet elevation gain.

    The Hike: This ride begins with a grueling pedal up Old Stage Road. Ride just over two miles up the road to a junction with Gold Camp Road. Turn right. Follow the road as it contours gently down and around to the north, then west. After a sharp turn to the northeast, just under four miles from the start, the road climbs slightly. Follow bike tracks to an unmarked trail cutting off to the right. Prepare yourself. A narrow singletrack plunges through the woods. The trail is often rocky and narrow. Only experienced cyclists (with health insurance) should even attempt it. At 4.5 miles the trail passes two wrecked cars that have been rusting in the forest for decades. Here is the trail’s crux. Someone has built a 10-foot gap jump here, followed by a steep turn and a rock drop. Even walking it is difficult. Imagining riders who can tackle these stunts is both impressive and terrifying. From there, the trail continues down, over several smaller jumps and berms, rock gardens, and other bruise-inducing features. It empties out on Old Stage Road just uphill from the parking area.

    Details: Notes: Not recommended for hikers, dogs, horses or most mountain bikers.

    Dogs: no

    Rating: 4 Boots A scale of one to four boots. One is easiest, with little elevation gain, and it is at a reasonable altitude. Four is most difficult, with severe elevation gain, difficult terrain or extreme length or altitude.

    Region: Cheyenne Mtn/Canyon

    Great for: biking




  17. #17
    Gaa-zee-raaaa!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    Wouldn't it be better for everyone to have a properly sanctioned trail to exist safely into the future for us and future users, as opposed to a secret one?
    Definitely - I just don't believe that this sort of thing takes us any closer to that end. It strikes me as a case of "look how cool I am".

    I'm all for good public trails, and have no problem throwing dirt to see it happen, but the fact of the matter is that efforts thus far have proven woefully inadequate for the majority of (serious) DH types. While I'll readily admit that I am not directly involved in negotiations for these sort of public trails, it would appear that the biggest obstacle is not manpower, but liability. I just don't see public (not for profit) DH trails with big features happening around here anytime soon. Under these circumstances, it makes sense that those in the DH community would chafe at the thought of "their" trails being thrust into the public eye by anyone, let alone some schmuck who in all likelihood has never so much as brushed a twig from said trail(s).
    Now with more vitriol!

  18. #18
    Colorado
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    If anyone wants to ride this SUPER SICKY GNAR TRAIL with me I'll be there this weekend with my NEXT.

    I just bought some DH tires and a full face, so I'm not worried.

    Seriously, get real to the people who said remove links to site. If anyone wants to go there they can search for it, but now they don't have to.

    There are "hidden" trails all over this country, and while I've never ridden this I-35, I would place a large bet that it isn't that big of a deal compared to many other "hidden" and "non-hidden" trails.

    **** it, how many people on a Mountain Bike forum are going to go c-u-n-t up this trail anyway... I doubt many if any at all.

  19. #19
    !Vamos, flaco!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SylentK
    If all of us gravity types would stop building super secret stashes to satisfy themselves and start coming together as a community, and get legitimate, legal gnar trails, this type of stuff might dissappear. Canada did it. Why can't we? Eh?
    Part of my probelm with criticism of Phillips is that we're talking about public land, which, last time I checked, was owned by everyone. If you really want complete control over a trail and to make it as gnar as you want, pay up and do it on private land.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  20. #20
    !Vamos, flaco!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    Definitely - I just don't believe that this sort of thing takes us any closer to that end. It strikes me as a case of "look how cool I am".

    I'm all for good public trails, and have no problem throwing dirt to see it happen, but the fact of the matter is that efforts thus far have proven woefully inadequate for the majority of (serious) DH types. While I'll readily admit that I am not directly involved in negotiations for these sort of public trails, it would appear that the biggest obstacle is not manpower, but liability. I just don't see public (not for profit) DH trails with big features happening around here anytime soon. Under these circumstances, it makes sense that those in the DH community would chafe at the thought of "their" trails being thrust into the public eye by anyone, let alone some schmuck who in all likelihood has never so much as brushed a twig from said trail(s).
    I don't know Phiilips, so I can't even guess at his motivations.

    However, like I mentioned in another post, it's hard for me to feel bad for DH guys with secret trails because this is public land. If you can more or less do whatever you want on private land. I understand that's economically pretty difficult, but that's our legal system.

    They also had success in the Junk with the Free Lunch Loop, didn't they? And there are ski resorts.

    Here's a piece on public land liability. http://www.imba.com/resources/manage..._immunity.html Private land liability is different and, if I'm not mistaken, the Legislature has passed laws to protect private landowners from fools that hurt themselves.

    I find it somewhat hard to believe that liability is really that big of an issue considering the proliferation of skateparks.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    Part of my probelm with criticism of Phillips is that we're talking about public land, which, last time I checked, was owned by everyone. If you really want complete control over a trail and to make it as gnar as you want, pay up and do it on private land.
    I think you're missing my point.
    Biker? I don't even know her.

  22. #22
    nice marmot.
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    From what I can tell, the trail has existed for awhile. I get that these guys put some man hours into it and don't want to see it get shut down, but thats the risk you take. I have spent many hours digging dirt jumps over the course of my life, only to see them eventually get plowed or ruined by other riders. In some cases, I've spent 10X more time working a spot than riding it. It happens. Its the risk you take. Get over it.

  23. #23
    !Vamos, flaco!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SylentK
    I think you're missing my point.
    I see your point that the dh community should come to getther, unify and build legal trails, mooting the issue.

    I was just pondering a tangential thought.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  24. #24
    Rolling
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    Hey you people who want the links deleted, start posting things that violate the rules and Francis will take care of it for you!

    Otherwise, the more you post, the more you keep it at the top=more views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    I see your point that the dh community should come to getther, unify and build legal trails, mooting the issue. .
    Hold on there....It is a legal trail. It's that it's not secret anymore is the DH communities beef at the moment. Appears exclusivity is the real issue. Any "known" legal trails will have a fundamental problem that they are known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    ... Say, ever wonder why there aren't more of us aggro types bombing the shite out of trails like Apex? Think it might have something to do with the existence of more appropriate spots? ...
    So do you think now that the trail is known, it changes the trail from being an "appropriate" spot to DH?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    Yeah - what an aggro downhiller, the nerve of some people. Say, ever wonder why there aren't more of us aggro types bombing the shite out of trails like Apex? Think it might have something to do with the existence of more appropriate spots? Nah, couldn't be.
    When did you become an aggro type? Did you get a bunch of muscle shirts for x-mas?
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    I don't know Phiilips, so I can't even guess at his motivations.

    However, like I mentioned in another post, it's hard for me to feel bad for DH guys with secret trails because this is public land. If you can more or less do whatever you want on private land. I understand that's economically pretty difficult, but that's our legal system.

    They also had success in the Junk with the Free Lunch Loop, didn't they? And there are ski resorts.

    Here's a piece on public land liability. http://www.imba.com/resources/manage..._immunity.html Private land liability is different and, if I'm not mistaken, the Legislature has passed laws to protect private landowners from fools that hurt themselves.

    I find it somewhat hard to believe that liability is really that big of an issue considering the proliferation of skateparks.
    You make several good points - but in the end the real question is "Why?". I have a hard time believing that publicity like this (Phillips piece) does anything to help the cycling community as a whole.

    Pirate trails are not that hard to find if you really look - they're stumbled across all the time by people who would be better off leaving them alone. The issue I take with this whole thing is that Phillips, in writing his piece, has shown complete disregard for an entire section of the cycling community. I realize that many will take issue with this, but in a sense he gave away something that he had no business giving away, and then had the audacity to ridicule a reader who called him on it, that is what I find so offensive about the whole thing.
    Now with more vitriol!

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    When did you become an aggro type? Did you get a bunch of muscle shirts for x-mas?
    I'm tearing off the sleeves of my Slayer tee as I type this.
    Now with more vitriol!

  28. #28
    ..ouch
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    Basic concepts shouldn't be hard folks..

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    So do you think now that the trail is known, it changes the trail from being an "appropriate" spot to DH?
    It's a dangerous trail for less experienced bikers.. Posting the trail online = more riders of varying skill levels on the trail = more risk of someone getting hurt = higher risk of trail being closed or sanitized.

  29. #29
    Your retarded
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    I'm a little surprised that the ornery few are okay with the links staying. Here's why.

    Let's say the existence of this trail continues to be broadcast publicly. It is a public trail that exists on old maps, so why not, right? Now lets say that the USFS, who has up until this point has been understanding of its existence, decides that while it wasn't too advanced for the old group of builders and riders, it is too advanced for the general public. Let's be honest, it is. So, the USFS destroys all the features and closes the trail. No skin off all our backs, but that must suck for the evil DHers, right? Well, it will suck for us too because the small supply that was keeping DHers off multiuse trails around these parts just got eliminated. And trail riders like us are going to share our multi use, high user density single track with a group that is only increasing in size and following.

    So F the "let's protect the DHer" logic and adopt the "let's protect our beloved trails from increased user density with more diversity" logic.
    A trail that’s too difficult wouldn’t exist because it’d never be used. But, trails can exist that’re too difficult for you.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman

    So do you think now that the trail is known, it changes the trail from being an "appropriate" spot to DH?
    Possibly - as traffic increases, suitability for high speed runs decreases. Apex would be fine and dandy, if a little boring, were it not for the insane amounts of traffic it gets.
    Now with more vitriol!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    I'm a little surprised that the ornery few are okay with the links staying. Here's why.

    Let's say the existence of this trail continues to be broadcast publicly. It is a public trail that exists on old maps, so why not, right? Now lets say that the USFS, who has up until this point has been understanding of its existence, decides that while it wasn't too advanced for the old group of builders and riders, it is too advanced for the general public. Let's be honest, it is. So, the USFS destroys all the features and closes the trail. No skin off all our backs, but that must suck for the evil DHers, right? Well, it will suck for us too because the small supply that was keeping DHers off multiuse trails around these parts just got eliminated. And trail riders like us are going to share our multi use, high user density single track with a group that is only increasing in size and following.

    So F the "let's protect the DHer" logic and adopt the "let's protect our beloved trails from increased user density with more diversity" logic.
    Exactly.
    Now with more vitriol!

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    I'm a little surprised that the ornery few are okay with the links staying. Here's why.

    Let's say the existence of this trail continues to be broadcast publicly. It is a public trail that exists on old maps, so why not, right? Now lets say that the USFS, who has up until this point has been understanding of its existence, decides that while it wasn't too advanced for the old group of builders and riders, it is too advanced for the general public. Let's be honest, it is. So, the USFS destroys all the features and closes the trail. No skin off all our backs, but that must suck for the evil DHers, right? Well, it will suck for us too because the small supply that was keeping DHers off multiuse trails around these parts just got eliminated. And trail riders like us are going to share our multi use, high user density single track with a group that is only increasing in size and following.

    So F the "let's protect the DHer" logic and adopt the "let's protect our beloved trails from increased user density with more diversity" logic.
    IMO I am very ok with locations and trail descriptions being posted on this site. Last time I checked, the forums on MTBR are a great place to collobrate, learn about new rides and peoples mountain bike experiences. Maybe Denver has a bigger issue but the Springs is a different story. We have a smaller community with a ton more riding. I have lived here for 35 years and still find new places to ride. USFS closing trails in the area seems to me a bit of a paranoid delusion. I can see them taking down features that could be deemed hazardous such as some of the wooden features on pipeline, but closing whole trails seems a far stretch. If anything new trails are being added every year.

    Rider density has not been an issue to me either. I see more hikers and motos than mountain bikers anyway. I enjoy sharing my knowledge of the area and not only that there are a ton of websites, books, and maps to get to know the region.

    How about sharing instead of being trail Nazis? "no soup for you!"
    Last edited by Jaydude; 05-29-2008 at 11:47 AM.

  33. #33
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    IMO people should find these trails on their own or by word of mouth. No sense in broadcasting it via the media. Where is the sense of discovery in that? Certainly some less experienced rider is going to go there and hurt themselves, in turn threatening the future of some rare DH runs.

  34. #34
    Shoulda went faster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martlet
    is NOT happy with Mr. Philips' latest writeup:

    http://gazetteoutthere.blogspot.com/...are-angry.html

    While I can understand he might have been a little peeved about "his" trail being publicized, this kind of response does nobody any good.

    And what good are you doing putting up a post like this?

  35. #35
    Rolling
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    I agree with all the posts supporting keeping it secret and the problems with goof-balls showing up due to this getting out.. I know first hand from some cool stashes in Moab that I have ridden on with some local which I won't name but polly most people know him. Trails like Rockstacker have suffered the same fate in word getting out but it really didn't affect the ride quality in the end.

    Stash trails get discovered and that is part of the game. You milk the sucker and and accept the fact or move on when word gets out.

    I guess the point is, since it is a public trail and not a sanctioned DH only trail, you have to live with the fact that it's discovered and yes Dave Pillipps putting it in the Gazette did come across as "Hey look I rode a super hard trail that I could barely walk and here is where you can find it. Oh and those bikers (since I'm not one) are angry for me publishing it, hey look again." His review was kinda out of his scope.

    But most stash trails do get discovered by word of mouth anyway. Surprised this one lasted as long as it did. Rockstacker in Moab was never published anywhere, but it's the most popular trail that nobody knows about.

    I can't wait to get those PMs asking me where rockstacker is! ...cuz I forgot.
    Last edited by lidarman; 05-28-2008 at 05:58 PM.

  36. #36
    Your retarded
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaydude
    ...I have lived here for 35 years and still find new places to ride. USFS closing trails in the area seems to me a bit of a paranoid delusion. I can see them taking down features that could be deemed hazardous... but closing whole trails seems a far stretch.
    Okay, maybe you are correct, Jay. Let's revise my previous post and say that the USFS steps in and sanatises the trail of all features that define this to be what it currently is. Even if that occurs, the above logic still holds true. The supply for trails of this nature will be eliminated and its riders will overflow to more easily accessible trails. I doubt many will continue to drive all that way just to ride a trail they can ride in their backyard.

    Liderman, I can't argue with your logic, it's fairly accurate. However, you can make an effort to minimize the reprocussions once a stash has been busted. And that is why I requested that those who have linked and copied the article and blog to remove that content. I request that again.
    A trail that’s too difficult wouldn’t exist because it’d never be used. But, trails can exist that’re too difficult for you.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaydude
    IMO I am very ok with locations and trail descriptions being posted on this site...

    How about sharing instead of being trail Nazis? "no soup for you!"
    How many of these type trails have you put time into - you know, building jumps, drops, berms and such?

    I don't expect an answer given that this is a public forum, but I'd be willing to bet that your time spent moving dirt and rocks is nil, given your cavalier attitude toward the matter. It's all good to "share the love" - until it's you who finds his favorite stash has been closed as a direct result of somebody shooting his mouth off.
    Now with more vitriol!

  38. #38
    skillz to pay billz
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    the references to localism are unfounded. Until people are shuttling with razor blades taped to their bars and slashing tires at the trailhead lets just call the need to keep things hush hush common sense.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SylentK
    I think Phillips has a good point in the fact that the trail is on a map, so the whole illegal/public thing is debateable.

    But, as a gravity guy, I feel for the DH'ers who maintain "their" trail and its secret, only to see a piece on it written up for the public to see. I'd be pissed too.

    If all of us gravity types would stop building super secret stashes to satisfy themselves and start coming together as a community, and get legitimate, legal gnar trails, this type of stuff might dissappear. Canada did it. Why can't we? Eh?
    Canada didn't do it... the difference is in Canada you could get away with building trails because of 2 things - 1) law suits about people hurting themselves in a sport that they decided to engage in [with inherent risks] gets thrown out of court, and 2) they do not have the BLM/USFS monitoring the trails as harshly as we do here.

    I personally would rather this trail not get published, but now that it is I am hoping that someone doesn't get hurt and once they do ride it they realize it not for small bikes and beginner/intermediate riders.

  40. #40
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    Wasn't there a video posted a while back with the Yeti guys riding this "super secret" trail?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhpimp
    Canada didn't do it... the difference is in Canada you could get away with building trails because of 2 things - 1) law suits about people hurting themselves in a sport that they decided to engage in [with inherent risks] gets thrown out of court, and 2) they do not have the BLM/USFS monitoring the trails as harshly as we do here.

    I personally would rather this trail not get published, but now that it is I am hoping that someone doesn't get hurt and once they do ride it they realize it not for small bikes and beginner/intermediate riders.
    You're right on your two points. And that def helps CAN in their trail building situation. But the point I wanted to make was that the mountain bikers in CAN formed some kind of organization that fought for their trails. They faced closure of trails from the authorities just like we do. I'm not sure of the details, but according to a nice local from Pemberton that I rode with, you can build trails of any kind in certain places. Then, once its "burned in" and the people accept it, the mtb organization adopts it and maintains it for everyone! (something like that)

    Yes, we have a lot more gov red tape to cut through, but we aren't going to get the network of trails like CAN has if we keep building up our own personal stash of trails. But I guess it is a short term solution...until it reaches a critical mass and then DH will either be outlawed or accepted. I vote for the latter.

    So who wants to shuttle "I-35" this weekend!?
    Last edited by SylentK; 05-29-2008 at 08:51 AM.
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  42. #42
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    Uh, CA = California
    CAN = Canada...
    Or don't they have enough Californians in SFSD for you to have to specify that up there?
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    I wanted to jump in here for those who say that "Free Lunch in Grand Junction was done as a public DH trail, why can't we do it everywhere?"

    There was an interview in Decline with one of the people who helped make that trail happen. It took them 5 years of forms, paperwork, and finally construction.

    Hear that? 5 years! Its not that easy to just put in a public DH trail, its awesome they did it, but have some respect and understanding.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    It's a dangerous trail for less experienced bikers.. Posting the trail online = more riders of varying skill levels on the trail = more risk of someone getting hurt = higher risk of trail being closed or sanitized.
    I don't have a dog in this fight but... Halls could be "a dangerous trail for less experienced bikers". Hell, I've seen new riders that make bike paths appear dangerous. Just my thoughts, carry on.
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    Not to worry. As soon as I win the lottery, I will open a full on freeride/DH/dirt jump park on the Front Range and everyone will have a legit place to play.

    Or if I don't win the lottery, perhaps someone knows of some potential investors?

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Hey you people who want the links deleted, start posting things that violate the rules and Francis will take care of it for you!
    ...

    I heard somewhere that Ibex Bikes were in fact not the best bikes in the world.



    (There, that should get us all banned. He77, maybe they'll even shut down F=70)
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    the references to localism are unfounded. Until people are shuttling with razor blades taped to their bars and slashing tires at the trailhead lets just call the need to keep things hush hush common sense.
    I would disagree. I think it does smack of localism. You've got some guys essentially threatening the guy who wrote the story about I-35. That's crappy, that's localism. A lot of the comments in this thread have the same vibe. MTBing is generally devoid of that kind of feel. I would also argue that you can't blame some local reporter for ruining a secret trail, that honor goes to the guys who kept telling their buddies about it. Face it, that kind of stuff happens. It starts with, "You can't take anybody else here," moves along to "just bring a couple of bros that won't talk about it" and they tell their friends and then the secret spot isn't a secret anymore.

  48. #48
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    As far as I can tell nobody threatened bodily harm accept to say 'if you ride this without the proper skills you will hurt yourself'. 'Threatening' and 'asking WTF' are two different things IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    As far as I can tell nobody threatened bodily harm accept to say 'if you ride this without the proper skills you will hurt yourself'. 'Threatening' and 'asking WTF' are two different things IMO.
    I don't know, he's been called "the devil," a "poop stain" and has apparently "ruined Colorado Springs." Of course, this from the downhiller he noted on the blog: "P.S. be carefull the next shop you drop your bike off to, may forget to tighten all the bolts, beacause most of the mechanics in town ride DH." I'd generally call all of those comments threatening and steeped in territorialism/localism.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporterkyle
    I don't know, he's been called "the devil," a "poop stain" and has apparently "ruined Colorado Springs." Of course, this from the downhiller he noted on the blog: "P.S. be carefull the next shop you drop your bike off to, may forget to tighten all the bolts, beacause most of the mechanics in town ride DH." I'd generally call all of those comments threatening and steeped in territorialism/localism.
    He is a devilish poop stain, and there are many good examples of territorialism going on.

    Where's the problem?

    It's like some of you are clinging to this idea that the world should be a fair, safe and inclusive place. It isn't. People have been watching out for their own interests since the beginning of time. Honestly, I find it odd that so many are surprised by this.

    It's NOT a matter of "better than thou" or anything of the sort - the idea here can be summed up in one line:

    "Show, don't tell."

    Phillips should know better than to behave like such a poop stain.


    FWIW - the person who accused him of doing more harm than good in the CS cycling community is not a downhiller.
    Now with more vitriol!

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    I have to agree with Godzilla ... the reporter could have reported on the trail, but not provided a map and precise directions.... only a handful of people actually work on this trail and maintain it... their time, sweat, and sore backs went into it.. their fear is now a bunch of people are going to invade it, destroy it and not bother to do any maintenance... too many cyclist take all the trails they ride on for granted and don't give anything back, thus creating an immense amount of frustration for those of us that do the work in the first place!

    - end of rant

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    He is a devilish poop stain, and there are many good examples of territorialism going on.

    Where's the problem?

    It's like some of you are clinging to this idea that the world should be a fair, safe and inclusive place. It isn't. People have been watching out for their own interests since the beginning of time. Honestly, I find it odd that so many are surprised by this.

    It's NOT a matter of "better than thou" or anything of the sort - the idea here can be summed up in one line:

    "Show, don't tell."

    Phillips should know better than to behave like such a poop stain.


    FWIW - the person who accused him of doing more harm than good in the CS cycling community is not a downhiller.
    What I think is $h1tty about all of it is that it's not the writer's fault. It is classic attack the messenger when the folks who thought they were keeping this a secret -- maybe even you -- were the ones who messed up. You bring one friend -- Dude, don't tell anyone -- and that guy brings another friend -- dude, don't tell anyone -- and so on. By the time that kind of thing gets to a local outdoor reporter, the secret is WAY past blown. Redirect your anger to where it should be -- on yourself and your buddies who can't keep a secret. And, for the record, it is too bad to see this sport devolve into localism and territorialism. MTBers are the ones who look like dicks here, no one else.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    How many of these type trails have you put time into - you know, building jumps, drops, berms and such?

    I don't expect an answer given that this is a public forum, but I'd be willing to bet that your time spent moving dirt and rocks is nil, given your cavalier attitude toward the matter. It's all good to "share the love" - until it's you who finds his favorite stash has been closed as a direct result of somebody shooting his mouth off.
    Godzilla: I have paid my dues doing trial work volunteering at Cheyenne Mountain State Park and Buffalo Creek trail building projects. It just happens to be I chose to build trails that are legit vs. questionable. If you are going to build trails that could be considered dangerous and in the back of your mind you know the trial features could be closed by the Forest Service that is the risk you take. In that case I understand why you want to keep it a secret. Just don't bring out the waaaambulance when these features on public trails are exposed.

    Here is a suggestion: buy some private land and build what ever you want with a big fence around it. Or get the support required to build a legit DH Trail like Free lunch. Or even better drive your DH ass to Keystone.

    BTW sweet website .
    Last edited by Jaydude; 05-29-2008 at 12:39 PM.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporterkyle
    What I think is $h1tty about all of it is that it's not the writer's fault.
    Says ReporterKyle.


    My point is just that he is an OUTDOOR reporter, he should know better. This sort of thing is not exclusive to MTB, there are examples of it in nearly every sport - from kayaking to backcountry skiing. Ignorance is not an excuse. It doesn't make sense to me that Phillips chooses to shite where he lives, and then whine about the repercussions.

    Truth be told, I've never ridden there (just looking for an excuse to argue with random strangers on teh intraweb) - there's plenty to ride locally, but that doesn't diminish the fact that he is way out of line.
    Now with more vitriol!

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporterkyle
    What I think is $h1tty about all of it is that it's not the writer's fault. It is classic attack the messenger when the folks who thought they were keeping this a secret -- maybe even you -- were the ones who messed up. You bring one friend -- Dude, don't tell anyone -- and that guy brings another friend -- dude, don't tell anyone -- and so on. By the time that kind of thing gets to a local outdoor reporter, the secret is WAY past blown. Redirect your anger to where it should be -- on yourself and your buddies who can't keep a secret. And, for the record, it is too bad to see this sport devolve into localism and territorialism. MTBers are the ones who look like dicks here, no one else.

    Do you understand that the world does not revolve around you and your do whatever it takes, ruin as many people's lives, so long as you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied along the way, just so long so you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied and dying along the way?

    And how exactly is he not responsible for what he writes?
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    [QUOTE=Godzilla]Says ReporterKyle.
    Truth be told, I've never ridden there (just looking for an excuse to argue with random strangers on teh intraweb) QUOTE]

    Ha! That cracks me up. We're in the same boat. Touché

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    Do you understand that the world does not revolve around you and your do whatever it takes, ruin as many people's lives, so long as you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied along the way, just so long so you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied and dying along the way?

    And how exactly is he not responsible for what he writes?
    Ha! You must be a believer in the liberal media conspiracy, too. I wish I were an investigatory journalist. Was a reporter at one time, but now I'm just a cube monkey like you amigo.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    Do you understand that the world does not revolve around you and your do whatever it takes, ruin as many people's lives, so long as you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied along the way, just so long so you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied and dying along the way?
    Talk about a straw man argument. The guy outed a trail. He didn't ruin anyone's life of kill anyone. Talk about having the world revolve around yourself.

    Moreover, if we're going to talk about investigatory journalists in general, they have done far more good than bad, on the whole.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  59. #59
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    I'll buy that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Reporterkyle
    Of course, this from the downhiller he noted on the blog: "P.S. be carefull the next shop you drop your bike off to, may forget to tighten all the bolts, beacause most of the mechanics in town ride DH." I'd generally call all of those comments threatening and steeped in territorialism/localism.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    Talk about a straw man argument. The guy outed a trail. He didn't ruin anyone's life of kill anyone. Talk about having the world revolve around yourself.

    Moreover, if we're going to talk about investigatory journalists in general, they have done far more good than bad, on the whole.

    Yes, yes, on the hole, preparation h does feel good...
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    Is that a lightsaber? Cool...
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    Is that a lightsaber? Cool...
    On tattooine, the internet folks call it "slicing a dead Bantha" when they are tired of the topic.
    Last edited by lidarman; 05-29-2008 at 01:19 PM.

  64. #64
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    These are posts from a blog concerning the issue:


    "I see both sides of this argument quite clearly. For those who say that trails on public land should be public, you are pretty much correct... However, this trail is a good example of why exceptions to that logic exist.

    I-35 is a trail salvaged from a forgotten line down an old topo map. It was resurrected to meet a demand that no government agency (USFS, BLM, Park Service, or City) has attempted to recognize the existence of; DH riding. Right now, the supply for this type of riding falls far sort of the demand. Unfortunately for other trail users, DH riding spills out
    onto well traveled, multiuse trails that receive a high level of use. (These are the ingredients for significant user conflicts.)

    What was so great about this trail is that it was created to meet this demand head on. It was kept secret for two reasons: 1) the powers that be agreed to allow its advanced features to exist IF the group that rode and maintained it remained small and skilled, and no ladders were built or features were created from living wood. And 2) so less experienced riders, hikers, equestrians, or trail runners wouldn't inadvertently travel on it and hurt themselves or its users. Therefore, maintaining a high level of discretion regarding its existence was providing a small, but crucial supply to the existing demand AND was keeping ignorant (in an innocent way) users from potentially dangerous confrontations.

    This is why I and so many other riders are "angry" with Mr. Phillips. He completely disregarded the above logic and instead acted selfishly by publishing the existence of a trail that was clearly better off left to the capable few that were aware of its existence. As a result, the years of dedication and effort put forth by Front Range riders is at jeopardy. Not to mention their small supply of advanced trails with light user densities. Personally, I am not angry with Mr. Phillips. Not anymore. I am instead very disappointed with his decision to publish directions to this trail, not mention its existence. The fact that he has the audacity to criticize the responses of those who have spent their lives working on this trail shows a severe flaw in is his character. I hope that he is able to overcome this flaw and learn from the emotion fueled responses to his article that some trails are better off left out of the public eye."

    and-

    "I have talked with many of the riders that ride this trail and in my experience they have been very cordial and open to others using the trail. It isn't an illegal trial, read the original article and it mentions it being on the area's maps for many years—The issue arises when inexperienced people go up there and try and ride it. There was never any issue letting people enjoy the trail but having directions published in a local paper is reaching the wrong "mountain biker"--this trail is not The Chutes or Caption Jacks, it requires a bit more fortitude to get down and enjoy and thus the general public should not be on it! Also, the trail cannot sustain the traffic that many other local trails see and there is a small group that keeps it safe and fun to ride. Many cyclists do not have the time nor experience to properly maintain a trail so when someone is putting in the hard work they don't like to see it destroyed--they just want to ride and not see anybody get hurt, whether is be hikers, dogs or other mountain bikers. There is a lot of hard work that goes into many of the trails we all enjoy in this area and we all owe a thanks to those that are willing to put in the time! Give them a hand maintaining and ride within your abilities (and trails within your abilities), it benefits everyone and I think most will remain happy! Just don’t think you can take advantage of someone’s hard work and not put in the time yourself—"


    No, I don't agree with the way "angry DH'er" expressed his opinion but I really don't agree with how Phillips handled the situation! I know a lot of you could care less if this trail is exposed, over ridden and no longer maintained and safe to ride--why should you, you don't live here and you may never ride it-but I do live here! The trail isn't illegal or hidden it just doesn't need to be advertised to the wrong group of people! Think of having some of your local favorite riding spots put into jeopardy because of someone like Phillips.

    On another note--this thread shouldn't even exist! We all know better. We should be out riding, maintaining the areas we ride and pushing the sport instead of arguing on some internet forum! Going to ride some DH now...

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    Yes, yes, on the hole, preparation h does feel good...
    Huh?
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    Yo, it's sweet that some dudes broke out their shovels and creative side to put a new trail together. Too bad they created it on public land, without prior approval, as that's a short-sighted strategy by default. If my grandma got hurt on that trail, I'd be pissed at the lot of them. It's her land too and she's every right to be there, along with an army of reporters and the rest of the citizens of this fine nation. For someone to get their panties all twisted due to an article that reveals it's location is comical. ...Kind of like some delinquent getting pissed if a property owner comes after him and cleans off the graffiti he worked so hard on.

    Look, if you want to build a "secret trail", buy yourself some land and have at it. Frankly, I hope the trail is dismantled due to the clandestine way in which it was constructed. The lesson is simple: Don't go fouling public lands without the public's input!

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    Quote Originally Posted by swift
    Yo, it's sweet that some dudes broke out their shovels and creative side to put a new trail together. Too bad they created it on public land, without prior approval, as that's a short-sighted strategy by default. If my grandma got hurt on that trail, I'd be pissed at the lot of them. It's her land too and she's every right to be there, along with an army of reporters and the rest of the citizens of this fine nation. For someone to get their panties all twisted due to an article that reveals it's location is comical. ...Kind of like some delinquent getting pissed if a property owner comes after him and cleans off the graffiti he worked so hard on.

    Look, if you want to build a "secret trail", buy yourself some land and have at it. Frankly, I hope the trail is dismantled due to the clandestine way in which it was constructed. The lesson is simple: Don't go fouling public lands without the public's input!
    Word!

    This post is getting old but has kept me entertained the past 2 days.

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    ......
    Now with more vitriol!

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by swift
    Too bad they created it on public land, without prior approval, as that's a short-sighted strategy by default. If my grandma got hurt on that trail, I'd be pissed at the lot of them.
    1st, reading is fundamental. It's not an "illegal" trail.

    2nd, if your grandma got hurt on that trail, blame Darwin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    ......
    Does this mean your on your period?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    1st, reading is fundamental. It's not an "illegal" trail.

    2nd, if your grandma got hurt on that trail, blame Darwin.

    1st: I don't remember writing that it was illegal. I said it wasn't approved. <---Fundamental difference for all the readers out there.

    2nd: I don't follow your logic. ...but whatever.

    3rd: You make nice tools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swift
    1st: I don't remember writing that it was illegal. I said it wasn't approved. <---Fundamental difference for all the readers out there.

    2nd: I don't follow your logic. ...but whatever.

    3rd: You make nice tools.
    I can't wait for DFW's response...I wish I knew where to find the popcorn guy.

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    This thread is great. If nothing else it taught me who I could invite to my fire road group rides and who would probably not even be interested. Shame on all of you pirates who molest innocent public dirt.
    "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit." - And I agree.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaydude
    Does this mean your on your period?

    Actually, it means I think you're a complete f*cking tool who needs to learn to think for himself - but that I've already wasted enough time in this thread and see no point in continuing (and thus, deleted my original response).

    Thanks for asking.
    Now with more vitriol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    Actually, it means I think you're a complete f*cking tool who needs to learn to think for himself - but that I've already wasted enough time in this thread and see no point in continuing (and thus, deleted my original response).

    Thanks for asking.
    Dam.... easy on the Hate son. Its just the Interweb

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaydude
    Dam.... easy on the Hate son. Its just the Interweb
    Hey - you asked.

    What you and others fail to recognize while you're posting up directions, pictures and such, is that your actions do have an impact on these type areas. I'm inclined to think that you'd exercise considerably more discretion if you believed your own riding spots to be in jeopardy. It's hard for me to respect that kind of reckless disregard for others. Just sayin'
    Now with more vitriol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    Hey - you asked.
    Fair enough does the smiley mean we can be friends now?

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaydude
    Fair enough does the smiley mean we can be friends now?
    That depends -Can you recommend a good AM tire for Front Range trails?
    Now with more vitriol!

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    That depends -Can you recommend a good AM tire for Front Range trails?
    I could recommend a good tire but would need to know if you have a horn/bell on your bike and if you ride a road bike wearing spandex 3 bikers wide.

    Maybe try the 2.4 Maxxis advantage. It would perform great on I-35

    Seriously Im done witht he interweb today Im going riding.

  80. #80
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    I now take U live 2 our boy n the streets, Stadenko.
    A perntly, a sichasin has arrisen in gheythreadistan squer.
    Wut can you tell us, brah

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    I now take U live 2 our boy n the streets, Stadenko.
    A perntly, a sichasin has arrisen in gheythreadistan squer.
    Wut can you tell us, brah

    The situation here is tense
    A local outdoor adventurist group has taken issue with a reporter who has shined the light on a trail they created on public land. The local group had wished to keep this trail under wraps.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReporterStadenko
    The situation here is tense
    A local outdoor adventurist group has taken issue with a reporter who has shined the light on a trail they created on public land. The local group had wished to keep this trail under wraps.
    Nawt eeevun, brah. The public shood sponsir good ridas
    I bet dem outdoor extremists er pist.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    Nawt eeevun, brah. The public shood sponsir good ridas
    I bet dem outdoor extremists er pist.
    Indeed, many have publicly scorned the article on the trail, which has a detailed description and directions. A link to the article can be found on the FR forum. Wicked flaming has ensued. The audience has grown quite large. This has only shined the light even brighter on this trail.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReopterStadenko
    Indeed, many have publicly scorned the article on the trail, which has a detailed description and directions. A link to the article can be found on the FR forum. Wicked flaming has ensued. The audience has grown quite large. This has only shined the light even brighter on this trail.
    Brah, dat's like um... ironic n sh!t
    I bet dis noo trail is DOoooooPE. Time to break out da shuttle gear.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    Brah, dat's like um... ironic n sh!t
    I bet dis noo trail is DOoooooPE. Time to break out da shuttle gear.
    Ironic indeed my friend. Even more so, the reporter gets some free attention to this and other articles.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReporterStadenko
    Ironic indeed my friend. Even more so, the reporter gets some free attention to this and other articles.
    Man, they shooda just took him in an alley and like, broke his bong r sumthin.
    That'da shown 'em

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    Man, they shooda just took him in an alley and like, broke his bong r sumthin.
    That'da shown 'em

    I have to say I found myself chucking at his SS article. I'm a recent 29erSS convert

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by RepoterStadenko
    I have to say I found myself chucking at his SS article. I'm a recent 29erSS convert
    Yur so ghey, just dont wear tight sh!t as an outer layer, K brah

  89. #89
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
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    Ummm... it was funny the first time.

    This time... not so much.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    Man, they shooda just took him in an alley and like, broke his bong r sumthin.
    That'da shown 'em

    Replied to with

    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    I have to say I found myself chucking at his SS article. I'm a recent 29erSS convert
    Replying to your own posts with quotes is a bad thing--especially after nine posts in a row.

    Hurry, take your meds before the people in white suits show up.

  91. #91
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    Dude, its still funny. Its his way putting in his 1/50 of a dollar.

  92. #92
    Oh, So Interesting!
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    If anything can be learned from this thread, it's that you better make sure your riding partners are on the same page before you ride lesser known trails with them. They might feel ok about outing your stash
    .




    Strava: turn off your dork logger when you're not on sanctioned trails.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    I now take U live 2 our boy n the streets, Stadenko.
    A perntly, a sichasin has arrisen in gheythreadistan squer.
    Wut can you tell us, brah
    the 8 posts that follow this first reply ARE definitely worth it.
    I will never get back the time of my life I lost reading this sad and ridiculous thread.

    Why does it seem that the DH contingent is always involved in controversy?
    I understand WHY the people are pissed, but I cannot see how they can rationally defend their position for any period of time.
    Building a specialty trail on public lands, and thinking some silent/gnar code of ethics will keep it secure is not being realistic about the dynamics of the biking world today.
    The argument that the FS turned the other cheek if you followed certain criteria (type of obstacles and usage limits) doesn't mean jack either.

    You have no more rights to the trail than the slackers that are exploiting all of your hard work.
    Is it fair; no, but it is the reality.

    Clearly the current paradigm for DH riding is not working, so instead of wetting your pants over the perceived ‘violation’ of the Bro/Bra unspoken code of silence, maybe that energy could be used to figure out viable solutions for the problem.

    Maybe some of the riders who have sponsorships could do more to help develop specialty trails with code and ethic(s) enforcement.

    Until bikers become more organized and work for a common solution, we will continue to lose out to ‘the general public’.
    Good luck with your effort………………………

    break his bong..............ironic indeed.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaydude
    Thanks for posting the links please keep them up. I am riding this with 20- 30 of my joe blow buddies tonight. We are tuning our Next and Pacifica bikes as we speak.

    Colorado Springs riding is now destroyed forever.
    Sweet! I'll see you there. I'm on the purple Magna with no helmet!

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