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  1. #1
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    Oil drilling in Soapstone Natural Area

    This really pisses me off. I love it up there and I go up there to get away from civilization.

    Drilling out a plan: Oil boom on the horizon worries many | The Coloradoan | coloradoan.com

  2. #2
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    Yes, it is quite a threat to the peaceful experience that we are accustomed to.

  3. #3
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    Golly jee whiz....Who would figure that that companies want to drill for oil, keeping up with demand, in places where it hasn't been sucked dry?

    ....I say if you don't like it, then I hope you ride your bike everywhere then---especially TO the soapstone trailhead. It would be kinda hypocritical to drive all that distance for recreation and then complain about oil drilling.

  4. #4
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    Oil and Gas own this state, so do not expect any entity to be able to stop the O&G industry from drilling whenever and wherever they own the mineral rights, which is most of the state.

    How completely this state is owned is beyond belief. Bill Owens was essentially inserted into the Governor's job by the Oil and Gas industry (he was the former Executive Director of the Colorado Petroleum Association and Executive Vice President of the Rocky Mountain Oil and Gas Association). Hickenlooper is a geologist and has shown himself to be a total apologist for the oil and gas industry. The measure passed last week to "require" drillers to disclose the chemicals in their fracking fluids has a loophole a mile wide that allows them to declare a fracking fluid to be a "trade secret". What a crock of s**t.

    I'm sure some dick with connections to the oil industry is going to jump me now with the same tired rhetoric about "you drive your car don't you" blah, blah, blah. Yes, I do, and I drive what I drive because no one in government has the balls to stand up and tell the truth about our energy future, which is that we are so screwed that no one DARE tell the truth. The truth is this: we use 18-19 million barrels of oil per day in this country, and at the very peak of our production, when Texas and OK were going gangbusters, we didn't even pump 10 million per day from the US. We now produce 6-7, and even with all the technology and billions in investment, that number as barely moved the past few years. We have one choice, and that is to actually reduce our consumption, and there is only one way to do that, and that is to have the gonads to look in the mirror and recognize that we either bite the bullet now, or we let it blow our heads off in twenty years when OPEC decides to screw us with another embargo. The price of oil tripled in the early 70's the last time that happened, but then we only imported 35% of our needs, and if you don't think our economy would completely disintegrate with $300 a barrel oil this time, you are clueless.

    Our friend and Republican punching bag Al Gore suggested long ago and far away that we have a 50 cent a gallon gas tax to try to spur us into some kind of respect for our most important finite resource, and he was castigated and ridiculed into oblivion because that would have made the price of gasoline a completely unacceptable $1.75 per gallon! If we had actually taken that step, we might by now have had an infrastructure that would allow us to tell the Saudis and the others that hate us to go f**ck themselves. Instead, we still send EVERY president to Saudi Arabia early in their term to grovel before their King and swear we will keep their interests at heart in everything we do, so help us Allah.

    So keep on driving that Powersmoke, and we'll keep sending the thumper trucks across our most fragile landscapes (take a look around Moab out by Sovereign or up by Gemini sometime. What looks like roads crisscrossing out there are the scars left by oil exploration thumpers about ten years ago.) And we'll keep sacrificing 5 acres out of every 40 for drilling pads and roads to sink wells and pump "trade secrets" into the ground, until we have absolutely no oil or gas left, and we can just bend over and let those who conserved f**ck us in the ass for the rest of our time on earth.

  5. #5
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    Here we go. Just for fun, look up Al Gore's carbon foot print from his house compared to the average American house hold and how he gets rich with carbon credits. This week Michelle couldn't be bothered to wait 4 hours to leave for vacation with Barrack so she left in a separate aero-entourage necessitating twice the number of aircraft flying to Hawaii and twice the fossil fuel usage.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman View Post
    It would be kinda hypocritical to drive all that distance for recreation and then complain about oil drilling.
    Not when I spend the rest of the week conserving. And not when I spend every day making wind turbine blades so you and every one els in this country can have a future.

  7. #7
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    Alternative energy is fine and dandy but its not yet economical enough to replace fossil fuels. That's why subsidies are necessary for alternative energy to compete. Its good and necessary that we develop alternative energy, however, if America continues to purposely curtail its own fossil fuel production, high energy costs will continue to be a drag on our standard of living and economy. In my opinion a more reasonable balance is in order. I get the impression many Americans are beginning to realize this and there will be changes in 2012.

  8. #8
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    Quick test: Which industry gets ten times the subsidies of renewables??

  9. #9
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    If only a digital wind turbine could be created and installed within the front range mtbr forum.

  10. #10
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    Get used to it, dont like it move to some other 3rd world country, oh thats right we werent in iraq for oil, we were actually freeing the oppressed. Its about time this country starts making sacrifices for its extravaganzas. New world is coming

  11. #11
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    I find it ironic that people berate Gore for espousing capitalistic principles, putting his money into green initiatives, and making a profit! I wonder if an argument could be made for his promotion of greener principles as an offset against his "massively increased carbon footprint"?

    A new world is coming, that part is correct, get ready!
    It's all Here. Now.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Oil and Gas own this state, so do not expect any entity to be able to stop the O&G industry from drilling whenever and wherever they own the mineral rights, which is most of the state.

    How completely this state is owned is beyond belief. Bill Owens was essentially inserted into the Governor's job by the Oil and Gas industry (he was the former Executive Director of the Colorado Petroleum Association and Executive Vice President of the Rocky Mountain Oil and Gas Association). Hickenlooper is a geologist and has shown himself to be a total apologist for the oil and gas industry. The measure passed last week to "require" drillers to disclose the chemicals in their fracking fluids has a loophole a mile wide that allows them to declare a fracking fluid to be a "trade secret". What a crock of s**t.

    I'm sure some dick with connections to the oil industry is going to jump me now with the same tired rhetoric about "you drive your car don't you" blah, blah, blah. Yes, I do, and I drive what I drive because no one in government has the balls to stand up and tell the truth about our energy future, which is that we are so screwed that no one DARE tell the truth. The truth is this: we use 18-19 million barrels of oil per day in this country, and at the very peak of our production, when Texas and OK were going gangbusters, we didn't even pump 10 million per day from the US. We now produce 6-7, and even with all the technology and billions in investment, that number as barely moved the past few years. We have one choice, and that is to actually reduce our consumption, and there is only one way to do that, and that is to have the gonads to look in the mirror and recognize that we either bite the bullet now, or we let it blow our heads off in twenty years when OPEC decides to screw us with another embargo. The price of oil tripled in the early 70's the last time that happened, but then we only imported 35% of our needs, and if you don't think our economy would completely disintegrate with $300 a barrel oil this time, you are clueless.

    Our friend and Republican punching bag Al Gore suggested long ago and far away that we have a 50 cent a gallon gas tax to try to spur us into some kind of respect for our most important finite resource, and he was castigated and ridiculed into oblivion because that would have made the price of gasoline a completely unacceptable $1.75 per gallon! If we had actually taken that step, we might by now have had an infrastructure that would allow us to tell the Saudis and the others that hate us to go f**ck themselves. Instead, we still send EVERY president to Saudi Arabia early in their term to grovel before their King and swear we will keep their interests at heart in everything we do, so help us Allah.

    So keep on driving that Powersmoke, and we'll keep sending the thumper trucks across our most fragile landscapes (take a look around Moab out by Sovereign or up by Gemini sometime. What looks like roads crisscrossing out there are the scars left by oil exploration thumpers about ten years ago.) And we'll keep sacrificing 5 acres out of every 40 for drilling pads and roads to sink wells and pump "trade secrets" into the ground, until we have absolutely no oil or gas left, and we can just bend over and let those who conserved f**ck us in the ass for the rest of our time on earth.
    Just want to snap some reality into this post. The cost of energy has a direct correlation to the health of a nation's economy, its standard of living, and quality of life. Just going to present some data and let you make the conclusions.

    If you think the Middle East is the problem, below are some actual places where the US gets her oil. An oil embargo now from the Saudis will have an impact, but not nearly as much as you might think. The 300% honkinunit was talking about in the early 70's...the price before was about $4/brl vs ~$12/brl by the end of the 70's (1970's dollar...see plot - sourced from EIA and BEA). I used this plot in a recent paper for my MS work (accuracy only good up to 2010). A better perspective may be the contrast against the Real GDP...it took a hit w/ the 300% oil price jump, but also notice the rebound.

    Something else to keep in perspective is when/if the Saudis artificially inflate the price of oil, it makes recovering from more expensive reserves (Canadian tar sands) viable which will then bring the price back down. Notice the spike in 2008-2009...and the tar sands production is ramping up HUGE right now.





    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Oil drilling in Soapstone Natural Area-real-gdp-vs-crude-oil-price.jpg  

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  13. #13
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    Sort of related. I listened to a speech by a physics professor on Itunes once. He broke down some things that made it easy to understand. Essentially, 1 wind turbine can provide enough electricity for 700 people at the current rate of consumption. Ergo, 5,029,196 people in CO, that would mean we'd need 7200 turbines. US population in 2010 is 308,745,538 we'd need ~441000 turbines. And that's just domestic electricity.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I find it ironic that people berate Gore for espousing capitalistic principles, putting his money into green initiatives, and making a profit! I wonder if an argument could be made for his promotion of greener principles as an offset against his "massively increased carbon footprint"?

    A new world is coming, that part is correct, get ready!
    I personally don't have a problem with anyone making a profit, what I have a problem with is the hypocrisy with which Gore makes his profits. Also, there is an obvious conflict of interest. As a result, what he says regarding environmentalism cannot be trusted.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Just want to snap some reality into this post. The cost of energy has a direct correlation to the health of a nation's economy, its standard of living, and quality of life. Just going to present some data and let you make the conclusions.
    Typical economic analysis done outside of geologic reality.

    Guess what? We are never going to see enough oil from Tar Sands in Canada to replace what we get from other sources, because there is not enough water there to increase production much beyond what it is now, and the environmental destruction is already horrendous. People forget that Canada's oil is FOREIGN OIL, and if the sovereign nation of Canada decides to shut off that spigot, what are we going to do, invade?

    BTW, OPEC is much bigger than Saudi Arabia, and it includes such US friendly countries as Venezuela and Iran. The Saudis do not have the excess capacity to cover Iran if it goes down, and there is no reason a coalition of rouge OPEC countries couldn't bypass the Saudis and vote an embargo themselves.

    A fact that many people don't realize is that while Saudi Arabia is the world's larger exporter of crude oil, they are NOT the world's largest producer. That would be Russia, another wild card in the oil game.

    Economists also conveniently ignore another geologic reality, and that is that every single oil source on earth is finite, and the moment you start pumping that source, you are in depletion mode. One of our largest oil suppliers is Mexico, but they are on track to become a net oil IMPORTER by 2020, because their largest field is nearly finished. The US drills thousands of new wells every year but this barely offsets the depleting production of existing wells. The Saudis are widely believed to be lying about their prospects as well, and absolutely refuse any outside inquiries as to their future prospects. See the great book "Twilight in the Desert" for more on that.

    Yet another factor widely ignored is that production of oil brings prosperity to the country pumping the oil, which also causes their internal consumption to rise. Mexico and Saudi Arabia are great examples. As production in these countries peak, they have to use more and more of their production to satisfy internal demands, which means their exports drop even if their production stays the same.

    Saudi Arabia knows that their production will never rise much, if any, beyond what it is right now, so they are using their oil proceeds to build massive solar farms so that they don't have to use oil to generate electricity.

    And before someone starts chiming in with the oil shale BS, forget it. The oil shale in western Colorado, SW Wyoming and eastern Utah will never be anything more than an emergency military supply, because the amount of water and energy needed to create usable oil from kerogen-infused rock makes that idea a pipe dream that will never come to fruition. It would take the equivalent of a new nuclear power plant for every 100,000 barrels of oil per day we could get out of oil shale. 100,000 barrels is about one-half of one percent of our consumption. Even if we used every available gallon of water in the Colorado river we couldn't produce 1 million barrels per day from shale, even if we were willing to build 10 nuke plants to power the process.

    The bottom line is very clear: we either suck it up and figure out how to prosper on half the oil we use today, or our economy withers under the constant price pressures from competing with China, India, Europe and the rest of the world. The days of being able to import massive amounts of cheap oil from other countries has ended, which is why oil is over $100 a barrel even in the face of lower demand caused by the economic crisis.

  16. #16
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    Yeah, those oil wells are going to distract from the HUGE power plant at the entrance.

    But seriously, they should have bought the mineral rights. They assumed that extracting oil would not be economical enough, so they decided not to do it. Whhooopssss....

    Listen, it's a good idea to conserve energy, but don't think you're "saving the earth"......the earth is fine Now, keeping pollutants out of the atmosphere a little more clear or saving energy resources so we will have more in the future? I can get on that bandwagon.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    Sort of related. I listened to a speech by a physics professor on Itunes once. He broke down some things that made it easy to understand. Essentially, 1 wind turbine can provide enough electricity for 700 people at the current rate of consumption. Ergo, 5,029,196 people in CO, that would mean we'd need 7200 turbines. US population in 2010 is 308,745,538 we'd need ~441000 turbines. And that's just domestic electricity.
    And that is only when the wind is blowing at the appropriate speed (not too light, not too heavy).



    Regardless, the important issue is that they manage the extraction process so that it minimizes the impact and they are required to reclaim the sites once they are done.

    They didn't mention how many bbl's of oil they expect to get, what extraction method they would use, nor how long they expect it to take... which makes me very nervous.

  18. #18
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    In actuality generating revenue is what that land was set aside for. It's State School land managed by the SLB that was sold to the communities for recreation (revenue).

    The land was set aside by Congress with the Morrill Act of 1862 or Land Grant College Act. If you go to CSU, then you reap the direct benefits of the revenue generated from these mineral leases.

    "The State Board of Land Commissioners (also known as the State Land Board and the SLB) was established in 1876 to manage more than 3 million acres of land and 4 million acres of mineral rights that the federal government gave to Colorado to generate revenue for public education and some of the state's institutions. "

    (from the article you posted)
    Soapstone Prairie Natural Area - 22,000 acres
    » Meadow Springs Ranch - 26,500 acres

    » Red Mountain Open Space - 15,000 acres

    » Mineral rights owned by the Colorado State Land Board in the area - 15,718 acres

    » Revenue to the board through mineral rights leasing statewide in fiscal year 2008-09 - $67.8 million

    » Revenue from mineral rights leasing to the board statewide in fiscal year 2010-11 - $122.8 million

    The revenue generated from SLB lands is what keeps tuition rates a little lower than say on the east coast or a non-state university.

    Why do you think it's so cheap to go to college in Texas? and why so many out of state kids go to school down there.

    [EDIT]
    This is an interesting report on our energy reserves. Much larger than previously thought, or at least so says this group.
    http://energyforamerica.org/wp-conte...ntory-2011.pdf

    Who knows what to believe any more.
    Last edited by UncleTrail; 12-20-2011 at 09:46 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter View Post
    Regardless, the important issue is that they manage the extraction process so that it minimizes the impact and they are required to reclaim the sites once they are done.
    When a company drills a well, they have to put reclamation money into an escrow account that will be used to clean up the site once completed.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdub View Post
    When a company drills a well, they have to put reclamation money into an escrow account that will be used to clean up the site once completed.

    Wrong. They have to post a bond, which is a totally different concept. And the bond amounts are ridiculously low.

    There was a recent case of an operator going bankrupt and abandoning wells in Rio Blanco county. Guess who pays for the cleanup?

    706 –Soil Protection, Plugging and Abandonment
    1.
    Old bonding amounts were $5,000 per well and $30,000 or $100,000 blanket bonds.
    2.
    New rules require $10,000 bond per well for wells less than 3000 feet deep and $20,000 bond per well for wells more than 3000 feet deep.
    3.
    Blanket bonds are now $60,000 (less than 100 wells) and $100,000 (more than 100 wells).
    4.
    New bonding levels are required for all wells except domestic wells bonded prior to May 1, 2009.
    5.
    An operator may seek a variance from these rules under appropriate circumstances.
    700

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Wrong.
    They put money down for clean up before ever drilling, that is the point I'm trying to make. Bond / escrow...whatever.

    I made no comments on the amount.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pulser View Post
    Not when I spend the rest of the week conserving. And not when I spend every day making wind turbine blades so you and every one els in this country can have a future.
    Where does the power come from to make those turbine blades? Certainly not from the wind turbines they're attached to.

    The options to meet our current and future energy consumption: extract more fossil fuels or mine more uranium. I hate both those realities, but it is what it is.

    Wind and solar energy are products of fossil fuel consumption. Thinking, for a moment, that they are sustainable or economical on such a large scale is ridiculous and delusional. The life span of a solar panel is 30 years (in perfect conditions), the life span of the hardware needed to convert dc to ac is less than half that. Copper wire, glass, and photovoltaics require greater energies to produce than the amount of energy generated by the end product. That is the exact opposite of the definition of sustainable.

    Then again, on a geologic time scale we're but a blip. Even on a evolutionary time scale we're but a blip. Thinking that we make such a large impact is ****-centric. For example, birds have evolved through two mass extinctions, and single celled organisms have existed for over 3000 million years.

    Further, not a single person (in this country, especially) can claim no culpability in the issue of resource extraction and and degradation. Acknowledging the problem is great. Mitigating ones consumption is commendable. But believing for a second that any industry that promotes itself as sustainable revels the depth of the pile of the wool rug pulled over our eyes.
    Last edited by rogbie; 12-20-2011 at 12:17 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    Where does the power come from to make those turbine blades? Certainly not from the wind turbines they're attached to.
    Excel will be producing 20% of their power in Colorado by renewables by 2020. I don't know what the percentage produced by wind is today, but it is not zero. So certainly some portion of the power used to produce the turbine blades comes from wind turbines themselves. Some comes from solar panels, some from coal and some from natural gas.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdub View Post
    They put money down for clean up before ever drilling, that is the point I'm trying to make. Bond / escrow...whatever.

    I made no comments on the amount.
    A bond is totally different than escrow. Saying they are putting money down by holding a bond is like saying you have $300,000 in the bank because you bought a $300,000 auto insurance policy. A key point here is that if a company drills multiple wells, they can cover it with ONE $60,000 bond. The situation in Rio Blanco county where a company abandoned multiple wells shows that this is a stupid concept and just another example of how this state is a giveaway to oil and gas producers. The severance taxes in Colorado are a fraction of what they are in Wyoming, New Mexico, Oklahoma or Texas. Our setback requirements are half of those in Texas. We just passed a requirement to disclose the contents of fracking fluids but then let the companies themselves declare that the contents were a "trade secret".

    The oil and gas industry loves Colorado more than any other state, because they operate here with the most lax regs and essentially the lowest tax burden of any of the top producing states. They absolutely own the legislature and the Governor's office.

  25. #25
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    Seems wierd that no one has invented a self generating engine for automobiles. Kind of like the hybrids now, but on steroids.
    Then again why would a big manufacture spend all the money on R&D.

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