Results 1 to 96 of 96
  1. #1
    Yappy little dog!
    Reputation: schnauzers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,881

    NTM Singletrack is Gone!

    `I'm going to email Kim Fredricks and see what is up, but the singletrack that used to go through the mars lava rock area and the part on the western side are closed. Everything is routed onto the dirt roads. Really disappointing since that was the best part of the mountain.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: kosayno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    990
    You could just cross the street and go to White Ranch. Much more funnerer there anyways.

  3. #3
    Yappy little dog!
    Reputation: schnauzers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,881
    Quote Originally Posted by kosayno
    You could just cross the street and go to White Ranch. Much more funnerer there anyways.
    Yeah, I know but then I have to commit to a long ride and climb Belcher. NTM is good for a quickie with a climb.

  4. #4
    not actually bad :)
    Reputation: bad_andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,762
    That sucks.
    Haven't been there much, but do like it.
    Let us know what's up.
    Old Codger

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gotdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,314
    yep, that "social trail" has been on the cutting block since they finished the NTM management plan so long ago... was just a matter of time before they enacted and signed everything.

    sadly, the "official" trail system up there doesn't take advantage of the potential that NTM has to offer.
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ds2199's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    857


    That sucks!!!!

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    74

    Yeah. Very irritating. I rode this trail yesterday.

    And now it's off limits. I've been riding these trails for years. Who decided that they are now "unauthorized" trails?

    This is the trail that takes you to the north overlook.


  8. #8
    Stand back
    Reputation: dbabuser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,175
    If only we were hikers, maybe we could authorize social trails...
    Golden Bike Park

    Golden Connector Trails need your support!

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ds2199's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    857
    Does anyone know what Jeffco plans to do with NTM? I am scratching my head wondering why they would spend all the $$$ building a new trailhead (parking area etc.), which will bring MORE hikers/bikers/runners to NTM and then go close numerous trails around and on the mountain.

    I understand that the singletrack would have needed work to be sustainable, but why put a higher volume of users (mixed users at that - don't forget the horses too) on LESS trail?

    I am just hoping that there are plans to ADD trails and not just reclaim them.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smmokan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    2,410
    Wow, that really freakin' sucks. Like someone already said above, that was the best trail on the mountain.

    What the hell is the reason for closing it? Too much fun? They'd rather have people on the doubletrack?

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,962
    The raptor nesting area on the north facing cliffs has something to do with them wanting to limit encouraging peeps from heading that direction. Why "they" don't utilize the social trails that head in other directions and even cut in more trails around the top is a mystery. It's like they just really don't want anyone up there.

    I would tell you some of my favorite trails/loops up there but I'm afraid they're all turn out to be social trails and I'd just be alerting somebody of how cool they are so they'll then close them as well just because they can.
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gotdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,314

    the usual suspects

    reasons: ecology ; wildlife ; politics.

    i'm sure you can find the NTM management plan on the JCOS site somewhere... this all went down a couple of years ago.

    fwiw, this issue is what got me involved in local advocacy back in '05, since NTM is the closest trail to me. win some, lose some. at least we avoided the alternate day exclusion up there (and indeed some folks were pushing hard for "no bikes allowed").
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  13. #13
    Almost Human
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,660
    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199
    Does anyone know what Jeffco plans to do with NTM? I am scratching my head wondering why they would spend all the $$$ building a new trailhead (parking area etc.), which will bring MORE hikers/bikers/runners to NTM and then go close numerous trails around and on the mountain.

    I understand that the singletrack would have needed work to be sustainable, but why put a higher volume of users (mixed users at that - don't forget the horses too) on LESS trail?

    I am just hoping that there are plans to ADD trails and not just reclaim them.
    Nope. That's too bad also, because that was a great loop up on top. Almost like the original plan to ban MTB's completely? They let you in, but closed the only good trail and eliminated the loops... now there's no reason to go to NTM.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199
    Does anyone know what Jeffco plans to do with NTM?
    Here's the concept plan map from the Jeffco website: http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/jeffco...conceptmap.pdf

    The "sensitive areas" shown are due to rare plants in teh rock garden area, and raptor nests on the north cliffs. I'd bet that's the rationale behind the seasonal trail closure in that NE corner.

    I hope the new trails/connections are cool when its all done. (The green lines along the east side-slopes could have potential)...

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by gotdirt
    reasons: ecology ; wildlife ; politics.

    i'm sure you can find the NTM management plan on the JCOS site somewhere... this all went down a couple of years ago.

    fwiw, this issue is what got me involved in local advocacy back in '05, since NTM is the closest trail to me. win some, lose some. at least we avoided the alternate day exclusion up there (and indeed some folks were pushing hard for "no bikes allowed").

    Thanks gotdirt. Here's the plan

    http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/jeffco...ve_summary.pdf

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by rocco1109
    And the concept map...

    http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/jeffco...conceptmap.pdf

  17. #17
    zrm
    zrm is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,551
    Why are people surprised when social/illegal trails get shut down? Folks seem to forget that open space is purchased and preserved for many reasons, having fun on mtbs is only one of them.

  18. #18
    Almost Human
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,660
    Quote Originally Posted by rocco1109
    I think if you put topo lines on that map you would notice the green perimeter trail is not on top of NTM.

    The dashed lines are the mesa rim.

  19. #19
    Starts B, ends Rant.
    Reputation: B-Rant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    64
    To be fair to the guys complaining though, JCOS seems to be in the habit of cutting trail supply in the face of increasing trail demand. I have no problem with preservation, but simple economics dictates that decreasing supply of trails will probably only lead to more congestion, problems and ultimately illegal trails. There has to be a solution where JCOS can increase the size of the network, while preserving the experience and the habitat. Little OT, but it boggles my mind why they don't build a shuttle only downhill trail. If there is lots of demand and tons of younger riders going that direction, why not add supply where there is demand. I'm not really upset about this, I just don't get it.

  20. #20
    Thread Terrorist
    Reputation: IndecentExposure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,854
    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    `I'm going to email Kim Fredricks and see what is up, but the singletrack that used to go through the mars lava rock area and the part on the western side are closed. Everything is routed onto the dirt roads. Really disappointing since that was the best part of the mountain.
    IT WAS ILLEGAL TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

    I won't mention who put that in, but I warned them that it will be destroyed. When NTM management plan was set, Jeffco realized that there were social trails. They asked for people to stick to them.

    Thats when the illegal trail was built. and so people started riding it. If you are a true steward to Jeffco, stay the F**K off this trail. We're not helping ourselves by whining and complaining either... It went in AFTER Jeffco said this place was off limits.
    Golden Bike Park Group

    Peak Cycles Gravity Team & Bikeparts.com
    Trestle Bike Park

  21. #21
    Thread Terrorist
    Reputation: IndecentExposure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,854
    Quote Originally Posted by smmokan
    Wow, that really freakin' sucks. Like someone already said above, that was the best trail on the mountain.

    What the hell is the reason for closing it? Too much fun? They'd rather have people on the doubletrack?
    I agree. That was the best place for a given trail. Like gotdirt, I two jumped into the advocacy camp when the City of Golden wanted the ban of MTN bikes up there as well. We weren't organized prior to then like we are now. I can go over many of the politics that led us to where we are now, but the short of it is that area was the prime area for mtn bikers.

    So, when Jeffco said that "its open to the public", although no official trails and signage is up way back in 05, everyone started riding it more often. The prime spot for trail (Again, I'll leave those that designed and built it out of it) was on the North West side on the rocks. Jeffco wanted that to be off limits for visual and other needs. Everyone likes to play on slick rock, including hikers and kids. The trail, when socially installed, had a time line and a finite death certificate.

    My neighbors used to have a circuit race around that thing, one of which was a volunteer patrol guy. I would only hope we can go back and battle for this trail.

    So, what can you do?

    Get back to OSAC and ask for it back. its not hurting anything or anyone. That place has been built upon, grazed, quarried and farmed. Its no jewel wilderness by any means, especially with 375KV lines and antenna's sticking out of it.

    Regardless, most of us knew this was going to be eliminated. I'm saddened as well, but sorry for the surprise.
    Golden Bike Park Group

    Peak Cycles Gravity Team & Bikeparts.com
    Trestle Bike Park

  22. #22
    Thread Terrorist
    Reputation: IndecentExposure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,854
    Quote Originally Posted by B-Rant
    To be fair to the guys complaining though, JCOS seems to be in the habit of cutting trail supply in the face of increasing trail demand. I have no problem with preservation, but simple economics dictates that decreasing supply of trails will probably only lead to more congestion, problems and ultimately illegal trails. There has to be a solution where JCOS can increase the size of the network, while preserving the experience and the habitat. Little OT, but it boggles my mind why they don't build a shuttle only downhill trail. If there is lots of demand and tons of younger riders going that direction, why not add supply where there is demand. I'm not really upset about this, I just don't get it.
    Where have you been? JK

    We've been fighting this for years. They may be finally coming around. Golden Bike Park is a prime example of what mtn bikers are looking for, and OSAC is watching.

    ie
    Golden Bike Park Group

    Peak Cycles Gravity Team & Bikeparts.com
    Trestle Bike Park

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    23

    Ntm

    xxx
    Last edited by Ajeet Mipans; 05-21-2010 at 01:54 PM.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    23
    If you look at the concept map the only thing we have lost is the single track on the NW side, and south part of the loop on the NE side (KKK Loop). It still allows us to drop down the trail on the SE and NE sides. Not the end of the world as I see it.
    I think we all knew that the trail on NW side would be taken away from us.

    What I worry more about is trail abuse by riders. I rode Lair O' Bair yesterday. People making new trails to avoid rocks, two places where riders ride 4-5' up an embankment (makes the trail look like ****) on corners. Dipweed riders that think that the trails are their own little personal playground will cost us more trail losses down the road.

  25. #25
    formerly Nomad rdr
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeet Mipans
    Dipweed riders that think that the trails are their own little personal playground will cost us more trail losses down the road.

    Yep, you aren't supposed to have fun while riding. This is serious business!!

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gotdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,314
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail
    I think if you put topo lines on that map you would notice the green perimeter trail is not on top of NTM.
    exactly.
    that was the same point i attempted to make during one of the OSAC meetings, because the map is misleading when viewed in 2D. once you get to the top, there is no perimeter trail and no loop to speak of. it's all out & back.

    going forward the lichen rock trail will be for the benefit of hikers only, as it would seem the area only needs "special protection" from cyclists.

    NTM Singletrack is Gone!-ntm.png
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    23
    Shawn W., don't get me wrong, mountain biking is all about having fun. My bone of contention is people that deliberately deface or widen trails because: A-they can't handle the difficulty of the trail (i.e. rock garden at the bottom of Chimney) or B: blight a trail by making a 5' ugly swath up the side of it to get that little extra adrenaline rush (i.e. Lair O' Bair).
    So...as to not sound like a whiney ass complainer..if you can't hack the technical part of a trail, walk it...if the trail don't give enough of a rush then go ride one of the numerous bike parks or resorts that'll give you that rush you need.

    Back to point at hand. Sad about NTM but I think there is still some fun riding to be had up there.

  28. #28
    Stand back
    Reputation: dbabuser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,175
    I don't think there was ever any trail on NTM that compared favorably to others in the area, but it filled a need when those others were snow covered or muddy. Now, it's just a little less worth the climb up, IMHO. Luckily we've got some new trails (which are built to be fun) being developed just east of there.
    Last edited by dbabuser; 05-23-2010 at 05:29 PM.
    Golden Bike Park

    Golden Connector Trails need your support!

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: zorro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    465
    So just got done riding South Table Mtn. and it appears as though the same thing is taking place up there. Couldn't find anything up to date (old info./news on Jeffco's site) regarding these closures. Anybody know of anything aside from the reference of why I'm riding up on S. Table (like peeps that like N. Table...it is close and not very crowded). Hope everyone had a good day riding cause the weather was phenominal.

  30. #30
    Almost Human
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,660
    Quote Originally Posted by zorro
    So just got done riding South Table Mtn. and it appears as though the same thing is taking place up there. Couldn't find anything up to date (old info./news on Jeffco's site) regarding these closures. Anybody know of anything aside from the reference of why I'm riding up on S. Table (like peeps that like N. Table...it is close and not very crowded). Hope everyone had a good day riding cause the weather was phenominal.
    Santa's magical reindeer overwinter on STM and NTM?

  31. #31
    Yappy little dog!
    Reputation: schnauzers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,881

    Whoa.

    I just finished reading all of the replies. Please, please please! If it is closed, DO NOT RIDE IT! There are places to take care of this now. Go to the TUTF and OSAC meetings. Take it through proper channels. If you don't get involved (as most of you will not(, then you don't have a voice.

    It's sad to see trails closed, and as a JCOS volunteer it makes it very difficult to hide my feelings, but obeying the rules and doing this the right way will have a far greater effect on changing them.

  32. #32
    feel the Force
    Reputation: mtbjedi1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    546
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeet Mipans
    Shawn W., don't get me wrong, mountain biking is all about having fun. My bone of contention is people that deliberately deface or widen trails because: A-they can't handle the difficulty of the trail (i.e. rock garden at the bottom of Chimney) or B: blight a trail by making a 5' ugly swath up the side of it to get that little extra adrenaline rush (i.e. Lair O' Bair).
    So...as to not sound like a whiney ass complainer..if you can't hack the technical part of a trail, walk it...if the trail don't give enough of a rush then go ride one of the numerous bike parks or resorts that'll give you that rush you need.

    Back to point at hand. Sad about NTM but I think there is still some fun riding to be had up there.
    This isn't just a biking problem. Go to one of the many places that are hiking only and guess what you'll find? 5-7 foot wide trails with many diversions around 3 inch rocks. Just go to RMNP, Chatauqua, etc, and this is what you'll find. Bikes have never been in RMNP, and it's been over 25 years for Chatauqua.
    A punctured bicycle
    on a hillside desolate,
    will nature make a man of me yet...
    -Morrissey

  33. #33
    Stand back
    Reputation: dbabuser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,175
    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    I just finished reading all of the replies. Please, please please! If it is closed, DO NOT RIDE IT!
    Where did you see someone saying they rode closed areas? I re-read this thread and could not find it.
    Golden Bike Park

    Golden Connector Trails need your support!

  34. #34
    Yappy little dog!
    Reputation: schnauzers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,881
    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    Where did you see someone saying they rode closed areas? I re-read this thread and could not find it.
    I thought I saw it mentioned, not that it was actually done. Just heading off at the pass.

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: zorro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    465
    I guess I'm still wondering why for S. Table? I understand the new trail development at N. Table and (according to this thread) closures due to wildlife/bird, but why S. Table? Any development plans I'm unaware of? I did see on Jeffco's site (the old info. from 2008) that there were proposed trail developments near NREL area, but those hardly constitute mtn. bike trails. They look like hiking trails that have crushed gravel on them with like 2ft vertical. Any info. is greatly appreciated.

  36. #36
    not actually bad :)
    Reputation: bad_andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,762
    Quote Originally Posted by zorro
    I guess I'm still wondering why for S. Table?
    Saw Kim Frederick Fri night at La Carreta. Talked to him for a bit, and he said they would be closing old social trails (that have become more main trails) because most of STM is private property anyway.
    http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/jeffco...l_plan_map.pdf
    Old Codger

  37. #37
    Thread Terrorist
    Reputation: IndecentExposure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,854
    Man, that would be a great place for a starbucks or a nike shoe factory
    Golden Bike Park Group

    Peak Cycles Gravity Team & Bikeparts.com
    Trestle Bike Park

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation: zorro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    465
    Quote Originally Posted by bad andy!
    Saw Kim Frederick Fri night at La Carreta. Talked to him for a bit, and he said they would be closing old social trails (that have become more main trails) because most of STM is private property anyway.
    http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/jeffco...l_plan_map.pdf
    I suppose that makes sense. I don't think anyone really knew what the property lines were up there. All I saw were those simple plastic signs that said something like "leaving public lands". I'm not sure if anyone paid attention before these very obvious closures. Oh well, guess I got's to actually load the bike up and drive to trails now.

  39. #39
    Light freak
    Reputation: scar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    2,781
    I think they should turn STM back into a beer garden






    ***

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Sked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    73
    I am as bummed as anyone. I had a great figure 8 loop worked out up there that was actually fun and challenging to ride. Here's the official response from JCOS:

    Your comments have been forwarded to Amy Ito, Manager of Planning and staff liaison with the Trail Use Task Force. Trail alignments at North Table Mountain were one of the topics addressed through public input during the park planning process and nearly 18 months of investigation by an ad hoc community group. Ground nesting bird and vegetation studys were also conducted during this time and the final North Table Mountain Park Management Plan integrated some findings. The result is a matter of directing use on the mesa away from areas designated as sensitive or special protection areas. Although well established trails may make sense from a recreation perspective, they likely have impacts beyond providing trail mileage. Our challenge is to balance protection of the natural resources with providing recreational opportunities.

    Yeah, whatever.
    What, me worry?

  41. #41
    Pivot Rider
    Reputation: Yetigirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,088
    This is why we need to stay politically active, ladies and gents! The Trails Use Task Force meeting is TONIGHT! I think it is important to show up and be sure to let our "bike reps" know (as well as the task force as a whole) that we are ALL concerned about the future of mtn biking here in the county and that we want our voices to be heard! (not the voices of those who may not totally understand the passion of mtn biking!).
    Dirt Divas website l Twitter: @thedirtdivas l Facebook

  42. #42
    zrm
    zrm is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,551
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetigirl
    This is why we need to stay politically active, ladies and gents! The Trails Use Task Force meeting is TONIGHT! I think it is important to show up and be sure to let our "bike reps" know (as well as the task force as a whole) that we are ALL concerned about the future of mtn biking here in the county and that we want our voices to be heard! (not the voices of those who may not totally understand the passion of mtn biking!).
    All very true but IMO, the MTB community also needs to take a hard look at what it's values are. Do we want to push for all trails, everywhere, regardless of other values such as preserving wildlife habitat? Seems like the MTB community is making progress and is making some good things happen, but is it a wise move from a variety of standpoints to push JEFFCO or any other land managing agency to compromise it's mandate to find a balance between recreation and preservation land for it's own sake?

    If the trail in question was illegally built in an area that had been specifically set aside to preserve a block of intact habitat, it might not be the best move from a PR and a partnership building point of view to push it.

    Just my two cents, take it for what it's worth, but maybe some mountain bikers need to put themselves in the shoes of those who are responsible for juggling all the various interests and goals of managing open space. They might find there is a lot more to it than making sure there are lots of trails for us to have fun on.

  43. #43
    Almost Human
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,660
    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    All very true but IMO, the MTB community also needs to take a hard look at what it's values are...... maybe some mountain bikers need to put themselves in the shoes of those who are responsible for juggling all the various interests and goals of managing open space. They might find there is a lot more to it than making sure there are lots of trails for us to have fun on.
    Perhaps, but an extreme stance to the point of eliminating human activity and interaction with wildlife is not necessarily "stewardship" either. We are just monkeys with car keys after all. Humans and wildlife have evolved together, who are we to say what's "natural" and what's not? Maybe we're supposed to be chasing wildlife around?

    IMHO What you are actually seeing is the result of a group of people who redefined the term "open space" several years ago to suit their preservation agenda.

    Look it up. In most places throughout the US "open space" is defined as: empty or vacant land, often parkland which is considered an amenity for surrounding residences. But not in Colorado, not any more. Now open space is being created with your tax dollars completely without public access.

    Isn't that really a "wildlife preserve"?

    Besides, most open space parks are 1000 acres or less and surrounded by homes and pets. Just what are you saving and for how long? Perhaps it's better for the wildlife flee somewhere else rather than live in an open space park and risk getting hit by an SUV crossing the road or having your eggs eaten by a feral cat. (FWIW DOW estimates animal ranges by road kills.)

    And honestly I could care less about a trail being 1' or 6' wide. That stuff can be fixed with a mini-x. (The myth that everything must be 12" wide singletrack is an advertising gimmick to sell bikes.)

    It's that 100' - 300' zone outside of the trail that matters the most (Trail Corridor), and whether or not people and their DOGS are getting off the trail and chasing wildlife outside of the trail corridor.

    That's probably why the NTM trails are really being closed. Think about it. DOGS and ground nesting birds do not mix. Seems pretty logical doesn't it?

    IMHO though, if anyone were really serious about preserving wildlife, they would ban dogs first, not people.

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gotdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,314
    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    If the trail in question was illegally built in an area that had been specifically set aside to preserve a block of intact habitat, it might not be the best move from a PR and a partnership building point of view to push it.
    a couple of points:
    • a fair amount of trail mileage up there (now closed) came after the NTM review... which is too bad, as it could've potentially been grandfathered in.
    • more to your point about habitat, however, is the unfortunate determination that the lichen trail is acceptable for use by hikers but not mtn bikers (who i have on good authority are responsible for its creation).




    i tend to concur w/ uncle trail.
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  45. #45
    Almost Human
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,660
    Quote Originally Posted by gotdirt
    a couple of points:


    i tend to concur w/ uncle trail.
    ROFL

  46. #46
    Stand back
    Reputation: dbabuser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,175
    Uncle Trail FTW...
    Golden Bike Park

    Golden Connector Trails need your support!

  47. #47
    Does Not Belong on a Bike
    Reputation: hojiman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    248
    Quote Originally Posted by zorro
    I guess I'm still wondering why for S. Table? I understand the new trail development at N. Table and (according to this thread) closures due to wildlife/bird, but why S. Table? Any development plans I'm unaware of? I did see on Jeffco's site (the old info. from 2008) that there were proposed trail developments near NREL area, but those hardly constitute mtn. bike trails. They look like hiking trails that have crushed gravel on them with like 2ft vertical. Any info. is greatly appreciated.
    The majority of the STM trails are all on private property that have been used for years. The eventual plan will only have two loops- one east and one west- joined by the east west connector. Basically a barbell. The plans call for crushed granite to cover the whole thing. Yay! I only hope they leave the bigger rocks like they did on the east loop to keep it interesting- sigh... It really is a shame that the county moves at this speed- I didn't even live in the neighborhood when all this was in the planning stages in 2006 and from what I understand, the outreach to the immediate community surrounding STM left a lot to be desired.

    Crusher fine for some, miniature American flags for others...
    This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    33
    Is this the area where COMBA tried to build a free ride park years ago?
    Anybody know about this or am I totally wrong?

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gotdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,314
    Quote Originally Posted by 26'er
    Is this the area where COMBA tried to build a free ride park years ago?
    Anybody know about this or am I totally wrong?
    the proposed "free ride" park at NTM was not a COMBA initiative.

    it was one of the many suggestions on the table at the time. we simply pointed out that, while the concept was good, the location was not... (realistically how many "free riders" on hefty bikes are going to climb/push up the steepest grade in all of JCOS trails?).
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  50. #50
    Yappy little dog!
    Reputation: schnauzers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,881
    Quote Originally Posted by 26'er
    Is this the area where COMBA tried to build a free ride park years ago?
    Anybody know about this or am I totally wrong?

    I am not sure about that. However, it is my understanding that a certain person who was a leader within COMBA may be partly responsible for this disaster.

    That was then and this is now. The new COMBA will surely work for more trails, not less.

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    33
    double post, sorry
    Last edited by 26'er; 05-26-2010 at 11:39 AM. Reason: double post

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    33
    Whose initiative was it then?
    I heard about a plan for a free ride park from a local bike shop and decided to join COMBA/IMBA because of it.
    I even donated money for the cause, above and beyond joining these guys......never heard anything.
    Very sour on these organizations since then.

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    33
    guy talked my ear off. Monotone voice.
    ring any bells?

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation: zorro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    465
    Quote Originally Posted by hojiman
    The majority of the STM trails are all on private property that have been used for years. The eventual plan will only have two loops- one east and one west- joined by the east west connector. Basically a barbell. The plans call for crushed granite to cover the whole thing. Yay! I only hope they leave the bigger rocks like they did on the east loop to keep it interesting- sigh... It really is a shame that the county moves at this speed- I didn't even live in the neighborhood when all this was in the planning stages in 2006 and from what I understand, the outreach to the immediate community surrounding STM left a lot to be desired.

    Crusher fine for some, miniature American flags for others...
    Wonder when they plan on carrying this plan out. Not sure what to think. I guess I'll try and work out a new route that maximizes the open/public areas. Sure makes it harder though...oh well.

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,962
    Quote Originally Posted by gotdirt
    the proposed "free ride" park at NTM was not a COMBA initiative.

    it was one of the many suggestions on the table at the time. we simply pointed out that, while the concept was good, the location was not... (realistically how many "free riders" on hefty bikes are going to climb/push up the steepest grade in all of JCOS trails?).
    Yeah, the killer was the fact there was substantial pedaling uphill to get to the proposed park. A poll of freeriders revealed they all checked the box that read "Fuggetaboutit!"
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  56. #56
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    33
    The plan I heard had a shuttle road.....

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    33
    The more I think about it, it was COMBA
    I usually don't forget being duped.

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,962
    Quote Originally Posted by 26'er
    The plan I heard had a shuttle road.....
    Well, heck, if there was "shuttling" involved the deal should have been nixed based solely on that. What I've always loved about NTM is the huge caloric expenditure to gain access to the top from any direction. To me that's one of its major appeals. "NTM Shuttle"? Where's the emoticon of a guy shivering with the sheer absurdity of the idea? I'll try this one
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gotdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,314
    Quote Originally Posted by 26'er
    The more I think about it, it was COMBA
    I usually don't forget being duped.
    assuming you're not trolling (welcome to MTBR, btw), i believe you are confusing the NTM issue w/ a proposal by a member of the TUTF, which had plans for a park (w/ an access road) near mother cabrini shrine (red rocks). the nuns said "no thank you" (and who's gonna argue w/ a nun?).

    as indicated above, absolutely no road shuttles have ever been on the table at JCOS...
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    33
    Like I said, it was years ago.
    Don't mean to offend, but this thread reminded me of that free ride park idea.
    Peter....perhaps Paul was in charge.
    Thought it was COMBA, but I could be wrong.

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    33
    Cohen, could it be Paul Cohen, Peter Cohen?

  62. #62
    Perpetually single track
    Reputation: ibmkidIII's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,173
    Dave Cohen? He was on TUFT back then (still is?) Wasn't Dave IIRC. I have a pretty specific memory of him shooting the idea down in either a OSAC or TUFT meeting....he did not like the idea of hauling bikes to the top for "freeriders"....can't remember for the life of me where that idea came from...part of me wants to say it came from internal JCOS....

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gotdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,314
    Quote Originally Posted by ibmkidIII
    Dave Cohen? He was on TUFT back then (still is?) Wasn't Dave IIRC. I have a pretty specific memory of him shooting the idea down in either a OSAC or TUFT meeting....he did not like the idea of hauling bikes to the top for "freeriders"....can't remember for the life of me where that idea came from...part of me wants to say it came from internal JCOS....
    to my knowledge, the NTM freeride area was in fact an internal idea at jeffco; the cabrini DH proposal was put forth by dave cohen (TUTF biker rep).
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,962
    Quote Originally Posted by gotdirt
    to my knowledge, the NTM freeride area was in fact an internal idea at jeffco; the cabrini DH proposal was put forth by dave cohen (TUTF biker rep).
    Free Riding Nuns.
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    33
    Thanks, you're right it was Dave Cohen.
    Don't remember TUFTS, was he associated with COMBA.at one point in time?
    Where did I get Peter/Paul from?
    Thanks for jogging the memory.

  66. #66
    Yappy little dog!
    Reputation: schnauzers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,881
    Quote Originally Posted by 26'er
    Thanks, you're right it was Dave Cohen.
    Don't remember TUFTS, was he associated with COMBA.at one point in time?
    Where did I get Peter/Paul from?
    Thanks for jogging the memory.
    Oh, I so want to go here. So, so, so want to go here.



    Yeah, all of those at the once.

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    553
    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Oh, I so want to go here. So, so, so want to go here.



    Yeah, all of those at the once.

    Resist the dark side, young Skywalker.

  68. #68
    not actually bad :)
    Reputation: bad_andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,762
    WEIRD....
    Was just working. Er, uhmmmm I mean - looking at an old post by my buddy dogboy, and the thread it was in was about NTM freeride park.
    Lo and behold I come back to (reality?) and see questions about what I was just reading about from 4 years ago!
    Check it:
    JeffCo Open Space NTM Press Release

    Edit - before anyone goes off the deep end - check the date on the thread I linked above.
    Old Codger

  69. #69
    Perpetually single track
    Reputation: ibmkidIII's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,173
    Quote Originally Posted by 26'er
    Thanks, you're right it was Dave Cohen.
    Don't remember TUFTS, was he associated with COMBA.at one point in time?
    Where did I get Peter/Paul from?
    Thanks for jogging the memory.
    Back when COMBA first formed from TSA (that right?) , he was head of the now defunct TUFT relations committee (or some such thing). That was relatively brief.....I don't believe he was ever on the board...

    no idea on Paul/Peter...I have no recollection of any name like that being a positive mountain bike trail advocate in the local area....but my memory is shallow...

  70. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    33
    Schnauzers, sorry to offend you, why are you taking this so personally?
    Thanks bad andy!
    At least someone has something constructive to say.

  71. #71
    Pivot Rider
    Reputation: Yetigirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,088
    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Oh, I so want to go here. So, so, so want to go here.



    Yeah, all of those at the once.

    I'm proud of you schnauzers -- we are all proud of you -- for not going there!

    Nothing super personal 26'er -- just some bad food that illicits an upset tummy-like symptom. I am sure that once Schnauzers has had a couple of beers he'll feel better!
    Dirt Divas website l Twitter: @thedirtdivas l Facebook

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,962
    Quote Originally Posted by 26'er
    Schnauzers, sorry to offend you, why are you taking this so personally?
    Thanks bad andy!
    At least someone has something constructive to say.
    Even Schnauzers takes everything Schnauzers says with a grain of salt and so should you.
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  73. #73
    Does Not Belong on a Bike
    Reputation: hojiman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    248
    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    Even Schnauzers takes everything Schnauzers says with a grain of salt and so should you.
    You kinda have to. I mean, I've never met him, but I have seen some of his socks...
    This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!

  74. #74
    Does Not Belong on a Bike
    Reputation: hojiman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    248
    Quote Originally Posted by zorro
    Wonder when they plan on carrying this plan out. Not sure what to think. I guess I'll try and work out a new route that maximizes the open/public areas. Sure makes it harder though...oh well.
    Plan has already started. Closures were the beginning stage, followed by tons and tons of crushed granite.
    This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    66
    I'm proud of you schnauzers???
    Standards are lower everyday.....
    I'm assuming he's part of COMBA and has a duty to behave in a certain manner - FAIL

  76. #76
    Yappy little dog!
    Reputation: schnauzers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,881
    Quote Originally Posted by DH Dominator
    I'm proud of you schnauzers???
    Standards are lower everyday.....
    I'm assuming he's part of COMBA and has a duty to behave in a certain manner - FAIL

  77. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    66
    Cute answer; I was forward this thread by 8 of the dozen I ride with.
    Promote your sport, donít act like an idiot.

  78. #78
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    33
    'Thanks for all the PM's.
    Morales is the last name for those that want to know.

  79. #79
    Thread Terrorist
    Reputation: IndecentExposure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,854
    Quote Originally Posted by gotdirt
    to my knowledge, the NTM freeride area was in fact an internal idea at jeffco; the cabrini DH proposal was put forth by dave cohen (TUTF biker rep).
    I thought it was a blended idea from the Colorado Downhill Coalition... which a long time ago had taken everyone's money, made a statement to JCOS, and then disappeared with everyone's cash. Oh well.

    Regardless, it didn't happen. The freeriders / DH crowd did make a few statements that putting this ideal at the top of the mesa wasn't a good idea (Based on the weight and type of bikes).

    None-the-less, where ever it came from, it wasn't a good idea (or it wasn't in the right location).
    Golden Bike Park Group

    Peak Cycles Gravity Team & Bikeparts.com
    Trestle Bike Park

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,904
    Good thing I never rode it so don't know what I missed. Never understood what's so fun about bike parks but I would love to see a few more epic trails, and maybe a connector from LoB to Evergreen that is out there being mentioned once in a while.

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,962
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Good thing I never rode it so don't know what I missed. Never understood what's so fun about bike parks but I would love to see a few more epic trails, and maybe a connector from LoB to Evergreen that is out there being mentioned once in a while.
    You didn't miss a bike park but you have missed something special, in its own way. Actually, you can still grind up the service road (from 93, at least if the construction doesn't stop a guy from getting to it) to experience the thrill of a gut busting entry fee.

    Pretty soon, though, it's just gonna be too hot and higher elevation trails will beckon. NTM serves a definite purpose at certain times of the year but summer wasn't one of them.
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    74

    Uh-oh. Not good.

    Not the best way to get the point across. I came across this yesterday. I guess someone got ticked off about the trail closures. Not only did they turn over the barricade, they also ripped up all the burlap (or what ever it is) that was placed on the trail.


  83. #83
    Yappy little dog!
    Reputation: schnauzers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,881
    Quote Originally Posted by rocco1109
    Not the best way to get the point across. I came across this yesterday. I guess someone got ticked off about the trail closures. Not only did they turn over the barricade, they also ripped up all the burlap (or what ever it is) that was placed on the trail.

    Yeah, that's not good. That will hurt out efforts more than help, though you really can't tell which type of user did it.

  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Yeah, that's not good. That will hurt out efforts more than help, though you really can't tell which type of user did it.
    Agreed. I did note yesterday that there was a hiker walking off trail in the same vicinity. I have no reason to suspect that he did it so I'm not trying to implicate him in any way. I just thought it was interesting that the hiker would pay absolutely no regard for the posted signs.

    He ended up going down the north side, off trail, and I saw him again (and passed him) on the dirt road on the north side. He was all decked out like an experienced hiker so you'd think he'd know better.

  85. #85
    Thread Terrorist
    Reputation: IndecentExposure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,854
    Quote Originally Posted by rocco1109
    He was all decked out like an experienced poser so you'd think he'd know better.
    Fixed
    Golden Bike Park Group

    Peak Cycles Gravity Team & Bikeparts.com
    Trestle Bike Park

  86. #86
    zrm
    zrm is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,551
    If you're allowed to hike off trail, why would a hiker be upset about an MTB created trail being closed?

    Stuff like that does nothing to help the MTB cause.

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    If you're allowed to hike off trail, why would a hiker be upset about an MTB created trail being closed?

    Stuff like that does nothing to help the MTB cause.
    You're not allowed to hike off trail. This trail is now closed to all users. I often saw hikers (and bikers) on it, back when it was allowed.

    Anyone ever see the naked guy running up there? Well not totally naked. He'd wear nothing but a thong and running shoes. I saw him on this piece of trail several times. He had very tan butt cheeks, not that I was looking.

  88. #88
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
    Reputation: SkaredShtles's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    11,892
    Quote Originally Posted by rocco1109
    You're not allowed to hike off trail.
    I've done a cursory search and have been unable to find any rule that specifically disallows off-trail hiking on Open Space properties.

  89. #89
    Yappy little dog!
    Reputation: schnauzers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,881
    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    I've done a cursory search and have been unable to find any rule that specifically disallows off-trail hiking on Open Space properties.

    This is true, though highly discouraged. Mostly for safety reasons.

  90. #90
    Stand back
    Reputation: dbabuser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,175
    Quote Originally Posted by rocco1109
    You're not allowed to hike off trail. This trail is now closed to all users. I often saw hikers (and bikers) on it, back when it was allowed.

    Anyone ever see the naked guy running up there? Well not totally naked. He'd wear nothing but a thong and running shoes. I saw him on this piece of trail several times. He had very tan butt cheeks, not that I was looking.
    Yeah, that would definitely mark a day's ride...
    Haven't seen him, but have seen a guy running barefoot up the rocky section of Green Mtn. And another guy (2 separate occasions) running and juggling at Apex.
    Golden Bike Park

    Golden Connector Trails need your support!

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    I've done a cursory search and have been unable to find any rule that specifically disallows off-trail hiking on Open Space properties.
    I agree in general. But I was referring to this specific open space (NTM) and this particular section of it. It has been designated a "Sensitive Area" and the plans says...

    "Sensitive Areas are those that are very special, fragile and highly valued for their natural or cultural features. Preservation and protection are the paramount considerations for these areas. Visitation to these areas is limited, controlled and typically monitored through a registration permit system."

    Then the concept map clearly states..."users will be required to stay on the trail."

  92. #92
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
    Reputation: SkaredShtles's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    11,892
    Quote Originally Posted by rocco1109
    I agree in general. But I was referring to this specific open space (NTM) and this particular section of it. It has been designated a "Sensitive Area" and the plans says...

    "Sensitive Areas are those that are very special, fragile and highly valued for their natural or cultural features. Preservation and protection are the paramount considerations for these areas. Visitation to these areas is limited, controlled and typically monitored through a registration permit system."

    Then the concept map clearly states..."users will be required to stay on the trail."
    Yup - I saw that. It appears there may be several areas on NTM where off-trail is officially prohibited.

  93. #93
    Thread Terrorist
    Reputation: IndecentExposure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,854
    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    Yeah, that would definitely mark a day's ride...
    Haven't seen him, but have seen a guy running barefoot up the rocky section of Green Mtn. And another guy (2 separate occasions) running and juggling at Apex.
    Sasquatch!

    They've been around these parts recently. Rumor is there's a guy on here (Matt) that believes in them.
    Golden Bike Park Group

    Peak Cycles Gravity Team & Bikeparts.com
    Trestle Bike Park

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,962
    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    Yeah, that would definitely mark a day's ride...
    Haven't seen him, but have seen a guy running barefoot up the rocky section of Green Mtn. And another guy (2 separate occasions) running and juggling at Apex.
    I saw a guy driving a convertible Mustang on the Boulder Turnpike playing a trumpet.
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  95. #95
    Stand back
    Reputation: dbabuser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,175
    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    I saw a guy driving a convertible Mustang on the Boulder Turnpike playing a trumpet.
    What Amiga? This is a Vic20.
    And the trumpet, that's a new one. I saw a lady eating corn on the cob at 6:30am on the way to work at Lowry once.
    Golden Bike Park

    Golden Connector Trails need your support!

  96. #96
    not actually bad :)
    Reputation: bad_andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,762
    Doesn't compare to these, but I saw that (Jim Smith?) realtor dude walking down lookout mtn road with his parrot on his shoulder.
    Old Codger

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •