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  1. #1
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    Of a new beer and a beater car

    I've never had a Deschutes anything so, since the sixers were on sale at $6.99 at Superior Liquors a few days ago I took a chance. Wow, the Inversion IPA is great stuff. 6.8%, which used to be "low" for me but is now "high" alcohol content. Oh well, once in awhile might just do me good.

    There has been a dead Chevy parked almost outside the 'hood, over by the Open Space, for months now. Sitting rusting by itself for the longest time. It looked like it'd been towed there and abandoned. I never saw anyone tending to it. Finally somebody decided to break out the drivers' side windows, which almost didn't alter its appearance. Glass all over the road. And there it sat.

    Two days ago I happened to be over there and...the owner had started it up and was "cruising" down the avenue. It sounded worse than it looks but it ran. I gave the guy a thumbs up as he motored clanking and sputtering by. He shot me his best Mona Lisa. I figured that was it, guy was leaving town heading for the great unknown, just him and his beater.

    No, he managed to drive it around back into the hood, park it again and there it sits, for everyone to appreciate. I'm loading these pics mtbr-style so I have no idea how they're going to post.

    To call it a classic is a stretch. The windshield is held together with silicone. If rust was worth something this car would be worth a fortune. The rear interior deck looks like a war zone.

    Of a new beer and a beater car-1-dsc_0533.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-2-dsc_0535.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-3-dsc_0536.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-4-dsc_0539.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-5-dsc_0540.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-6-dsc_0542.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-7-dsc_0543.jpg
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  2. #2
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    Could be a sweet car in the right hands!

  3. #3
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    I kept wondering if the guy had bought it to restore, in which case he could have bought something that wasn't so far gone. And he obviously doesn't have garage space to work on it. As it is, a lifetime project but judging from the guy's gray beard as he "motored" past I don't think that's long enough! You should have heard the clanking. I couldn't tell if it was all coming from the motor or parts behind, or both. It sounded like it was running on maybe 3 cylinders...out of six, out of eight, doesn't matter!
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  4. #4
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    It needs a rack and a Yeti on top. Then sit on the hood enjoying a Jubelale.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookiedough View Post
    It needs a rack and a Yeti on top. Then sit on the hood enjoying a Jubelale.
    That was one of my favorite features of my old '69 Dart. The concave rear window was crazy comfortable for reclining.

  6. #6
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    '67 or '68 Impala 4-door hardtop. A hardtop had no window frames, so if you rolled front and rear down it was wide open, as opposed to the sedan version which had a full frame on the windows. They didn't make 4-door hardtops much past the early 70's.

    The variety of engines you could get in those cars was amazing. Everything from a straight six to a firebreathing 427. I had a '69 Impala 4-door sedan with a 327 and a '70 Biscayne 4-door sedan (a low rent Impala sold mostly to fleets) that had a 250 straight six with a TWO-SPEED Powerglide transmission. That's right, a two speed automatic. Top speed on that car was about 70 mph. 0-60 took about THIRTY seconds. I'm not kidding.

    Another one bites the dust. That car is not worth restoring unless it originally had one of the super hot engines.

  7. #7
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    Try the deschutes chasing freshies wet hopped IPA. It's great, only sold in bombers and about $6-7. They make some really good beers.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    '67 or '68 Impala 4-door hardtop. A hardtop had no window frames, so if you rolled front and rear down it was wide open, as opposed to the sedan version which had a full frame on the windows. They didn't make 4-door hardtops much past the early 70's.

    The variety of engines you could get in those cars was amazing. Everything from a straight six to a firebreathing 427. I had a '69 Impala 4-door sedan with a 327 and a '70 Biscayne 4-door sedan (a low rent Impala sold mostly to fleets) that had a 250 straight six with a TWO-SPEED Powerglide transmission. That's right, a two speed automatic. Top speed on that car was about 70 mph. 0-60 took about THIRTY seconds. I'm not kidding.

    Another one bites the dust. That car is not worth restoring unless it originally had one of the super hot engines.
    I had a series of Chevy station wagons back in my youth. One was a '67 Impala wagon with a 327. The air cleaner had "275 Horsepower" on it. It finally started blowing so much blue I abandoned it in disgust. I had no money to rebuild it. Turns out that that motor was very sought after for restorers to rebuild. I found that out when I mentioned that motor to a guy at an auto parts store later. He just put his head in his hands and says "man, you should have let me know, I'd have bought that from you!!" for a number that made my young head spin.

    I just looked at this beater again and, indeed, it does have a 327. Maybe it is worth restoring. Maybe.
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  9. #9
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    That is patina, not rust. If you look up the definition of "beater", there is a picture of that car!
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pearl-drum-man View Post
    That is patina, not rust. If you look up the definition of "beater", there is a picture of that car!
    Patina! LOL. Next time I see the owner I'll say "hey man nice patina".
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy View Post
    Patina! LOL. Next time I see the owner I'll say "hey man nice patina".
    Since it's Blues Friday here at work, that kinda runs along the lines of Earl Hooker's "Is you ever seen a one eyed woman cry"

  12. #12
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    Looks like a great car to hide out it! Throw a rack on it and enjoy!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funrover View Post
    Looks like a great car to hide out it! Throw a rack on it and enjoy!
    I'm telling you, it has Funrover written all over it. Shoot the guy an offer, motor on down to some trailhead on three cylinders, then bask in the admiration of onlookers as you unload one of your vintage rides...then hang out for awhile. With pics!
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  14. #14
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    A little Helmet concert for ya Friday evening:

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/l-gCzk6I6i8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  15. #15
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    I finally met the owner. Turns out it was his dad's car, he bought it new (I think) and it eventually just started falling apart and the current owner (the son) inherited it. The bent sheet metal on the drivers' side was the result of, through the years, the dad kept turning too sharply to get into his garage. At 60, just a ding. At 70, some real damage, at 80, as you see. No, it doesn't have a 327 in it, the son dropped a 350 in it and, unbelievably, is still trying to work on it and make it "better". I said "quite a project man" and he again shot me his best Mona Lisa. Memories of his old man have a lot to do with it I bet.

    No, he doesn't have garage space for it (the wifey had something to say about that) so I'll get to take pics all winter of it rusting under a cover of snow.

    Here it is, in all its current decrepit glory:

    Of a new beer and a beater car-1-p1040014.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-2-p1040017.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-3-p1040019.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-4-p1040021.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-5-p1040022.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-6-p1040024.jpgOf a new beer and a beater car-7-p1040027.jpg
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy View Post
    I finally met the owner. Turns out it was his dad's car, he bought it new (I think) and it eventually just started falling apart and the current owner (the son) inherited it. The bent sheet metal on the drivers' side was the result of, through the years, the dad kept turning too sharply to get into his garage. At 60, just a ding. At 70, some real damage, at 80, as you see. No, it doesn't have a 327 in it, the son dropped a 350 in it and, unbelievably, is still trying to work on it and make it "better". I said "quite a project man" and he again shot me his best Mona Lisa. Memories of his old man have a lot to do with it I bet.

    No, he doesn't have garage space for it (the wifey had something to say about that) so I'll get to take pics all winter of it rusting under a cover of snow.

    Here it is, in all its current decrepit glory:

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    this is kind of the story that keeps on giving, good smile on a Sunday evening

  17. #17
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    More power to him, I guess. Emotions are what turn a beater into a money pit. At some point you have to cut the cord unless money means nothing to you.

    I knew a woman who had a Triumph Spitfire back in the early 80's who just continually dumped money into the car. You could have picked up a Spitfire in mint condition for $3000 at the time, and I lost count at around $8000 she had in hers. I told her she should cut her losses and buy another one since she liked them so much, and you would have thought I told her to kill her mother or something. That car was HERS. She didn't like Triumph Spitfires, she liked THAT CAR.

    On the other hand, I owned a couple of old muscle cars, that had I hung onto them like that, they would have payed off big in the end. I also passed on a ton of them that later became ridiculously valuable. I remember riding a century in Florida in 1982 or 83, and along the route near Orlando I took a break in the shade of a tree in a yard where there was 1970 Superbird with a 440 and a 1969 Daytona Charger with a 440 six-pack. The Superbird was $7000 and the Daytona was $8000. Both had automatics, and I don't like autos.

    Those things go for $100,000+ now.

  18. #18
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    Great story, I hope he can get it done!

  19. #19
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    I read a story in Road and Track about a 1952 Aston Martin. There was a picture of the dad, around 42 years old, standing next to it. In the story the son said he was around 18 at the time, had gone away to Switzerland to go to school a few years after the pic was taken, the dad had "upgraded" to a 1955 Aston Martin something or other and offered the '52 to the son for $1000.

    As the son said, $1000 was a lot of money back in those days and he passed. Years later he happened to be in some auto repair place near his hometown and, to make a long story short, his dad's original AM was there. It took some forensic science to figure that out (new paint, different stuff inside) but it was his dad's. He said he paid an ungodly amount for it but he had to have it.

    Later he told his dad he bought that car. First thing his dad said was "why in hell did you do that??"
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    More power to him, I guess. Emotions are what turn a beater into a money pit. At some point you have to cut the cord unless money means nothing to you.

    ... there was 1970 Superbird with a 440 and a 1969 Daytona Charger with a 440 six-pack. The Superbird was $7000 and the Daytona was $8000. Both had automatics, and I don't like autos.

    Those things go for $100,000+ now.
    Yeah, he could put 10-15K in that thing just so he could have a nice vintage chevy worth around $6500. If it's really that sentimental, and he has the stack, go for it. Those old chevys did run for a long time, they were built to last in a different way than modern cars, even the decent ones. But that was largely because they'll still run even with a carb that desperately needs a rebuild, plugs with 50K miles on them, no compression or uneven compression, etc. They have no tempermental computers or complex vacuum systems for keeping the catalytic converter (which they obviously don't have) happy.

    But they also handle like a shopping cart. They get incredibly ****arific gas mileage. Seat belts were an option back then...

    I still remember drooling over the 60's and 70's American steel when I was a kid. You could have taken that Chevy from the pics and put a set of keystone classics and white letter tires on it and it would have been pretty cool. Back then. My little hometown was lousy with cars like that--overpowered American sedans from before the first oil crisis with fancy wheels and tires.

    The old mopars with the 440 and 426 hemis were amazing. They handled worse than any of the other muscle cars (ford variants, GM variants, and even cars like the AMC Javelin) but the power was amazing. The superbird was actually sold as a production car only because in order to have a car/drivetrain racing in the stock car circuit you had to have sold at least 500 of them to the general public.

    My dad had a huge '72 Chrysler Town and Country station wagon. It was a nine-passenger vehicle, huge long parade boat. The hood alone was probably 8 feet long. It had a 440 (not hemi) with stock 4-barrel Holley. The carb itself was probably a foot or more wide. You could melt the tires from a dead stop. Pulling our boat, you could stomp on it to pass somebody and go from 45mph to 75 in a matter of seconds. I buried the speedo (somewhere over 120) one time, which was crazy because it floated all over the place. I did it on a narrow country road. Still alive though! That same night, I got negative fuel mileage. Gallons per mile, not miles per gallon... the sound that motor made when you fed it a metric ****-ton of gasoline all at once was amazing.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy View Post
    .. and there it sits, for everyone to appreciate.
    You should thank him. Most character that 'burb will have all year.

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    Of a new beer and a beater car-omega-sold.jpgIf it's originally a CO car, likely the body isn't that bad, at least compared to a car from the rust belt (like MI, where I'm from). My dad has started with way worse. Motor/ tranny/ interior work is so much easier than replacing floorpans and seaming in lower fender halves.

    His '73 Omega started out that shade of green, with a dark green vinyl top. Although he'd be the last to want to know how much time/ money he put into it vs. what he sold it for...
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  23. #23
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    Still a four door with non-matching numbers though. It's definitely a sentimental restoration and not smart money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidmantis View Post
    Still a four door with non-matching numbers though. It's definitely a sentimental restoration and not smart money.
    Ha ha, a smart restoration. That's a good one.
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  25. #25
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    Yeah, well a 2-door with matching numbers would have some resale value at least.

  26. #26
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    late for the junk yard

    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    If it's originally a CO car, likely the body isn't that bad, at least compared to a car from the rust belt (like MI, where I'm from). My dad has started with way worse. Motor/ tranny/ interior work is so much easier than replacing floorpans and seaming in lower fender halves...
    Even without the rust though, look at the interior on that Chevy. Upholstery, dash, rear deck. Look at the exterior on that Chevy. Gonna need two new doors. Glass. Rear quarter panel on driver's side pounded out. Hood. No pics of passenger side, probably some stuff there. If both interior and exterior aren't spotless, it's not worth any resale.

    As others have said, numbers don't match, the motor is just some run-of-the-mill 350. If it was an L-82 it might be something, but we know it's not. If it was something cool like a 307, 327, smallblock 400 maybe, having a replacement engine might not be so bad. But it's probably a 350 from a junk yard.

    Totally. Totally. A sentiment-only restore. Restoring old cars is only smart if it's your passion. But for pete's sake, at least start out with something that would be cool if it was restored. Late 60's Firebird/Camaro, Boss Mustang, GTO, Dodge Challenger...

    A four-door chevy without the original engine? Even if it was spotless, figure the best it'll be worth is 5-8K. You'll put twice that into it, easily.

    I had a professor in college who was into GTOs. He and his son would actually go on trips cruising through rural southwestern America looking for the rusting Pontiac under a blue tarp. They'd get them all buffed up and make money on them. Even without matching serial numbers a sweet '69 GTO will sell if it's pretty.

    The chevy on which this thread is based was an excellent candidate for the cash-for-clunkers program.
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  27. #27
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    Bah, so long as the sheetmetal is still intact, you can fix it. From the pics, I didn't see anything that was rusted through. Needs new doors? Only if they're hit so hard that they don't close anymore.

    And I kinda dig the frameless window 4 door look. Way cooler than GotDirt's 80's Ford wagon restore.
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    I'm with TomP on this one, you'd never get your money back on this one.

    There is an interesting shift taking place in the car collecting world right now - people who give two craps about "old" cars are dying off. Yes, there are some extremely high end, rare examples of muscle cars and foreign exotics that are still appreciating, but the run of the mill is not, especially pre-1950 cars. The people who can get excited about a '47 Studebaker Champion aren't buying cars any more. Values are slowly dropping, and are unlikely to ever rebound. Putting money into something like an old Stude or a 1969 Impala that isn't extremely special is not a wise financial decision at this point. It is even worse for the Model A/Model T era cars. When I was a kid I knew a lot of old guys who had an old Ford in the garage that they would get out and drive in parades or whatever. They are all dead, and no one really wants to deal with a 50HP flathead four with wooden wheels any more. Even the street rods have jumped the shark.

    That is no reason to not restore a vanilla old car, if it floats your boat and you understand you are going to lose money on the deal, but the idea that every pre-'75 car is "collectible" is simply not true.

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    On one hand I see what you're saying, on the other hand I see the First Saturday cruiser scene growing every year. I'm on the south side of STM and get trapped in my neighborhood by all the traffic on S Golden Rd.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    I'm with TomP on this one, you'd never get your money back on this one..
    Note that I never said anything about it being a good investment. In general, old car restoration is not a great way to make money.

    Bikes on the other hand. Oh, wait...
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    Note that I never said anything about it being a good investment. In general, old car restoration is not a great way to make money...
    Totally.

    I actually think cars are kind of evil, necessary but evil. Car culture fscks us over. But...

    I got sucked into this thread because I come from a car worshipping youth. Grew up in muscle car country in the midwest in the 70s. Driver's license in January of 1980. I started focusing on cars for 5 or 6 years before I could ever drive. I probably started my subscription to Car & Driver when I was 12 or 13.

    So, here I am almost 50. I can't remember details of the programming languages I work with every day and have to look up some of the same **** multiple times. But I have a semi-encyclopedic knowledge right handy of the muscle cars from the 60s and 70s. Wanna know all the displacement levels of chevy small blocks ever made in production? How about big blocks. Fords? MOPAR? Gotcha covered.

    Trivia question, what made the 307 one of the coolest motors chevy ever made?
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Trivia question, what made the 307 one of the coolest motors chevy ever made?
    It was Chevy. 'nuff said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaycastlerock View Post
    It was Chevy. 'nuff said.
    Well, that.

    And it was a stroked version of the first generation smallblocks, based on the 3.875" bore (the others were the 265 and 283). Relatively narrow piston, long stroke which makes for high compression and a torquey motor. Based on the same crank as the 327 but a narrower piston. They were really good candidates for building out, but needed high octane gas.
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    Now you're talking my language. Big bike guy and I had stroked a CB 350 once that was a mean little Cafe Racer. Huge red line at 9K that was fun. You could be going 50 in second gear, and it sounded like you were going 100.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando Gutierrez
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Totally.


    Trivia question, what made the 307 one of the coolest motors chevy ever made?
    Actually, the 307 was known as a dog, and most people swapped in a 327 or a 350. A friend of mine had a '68 Impala oil burner with a 307. BTW, it was in much better shape than the one on this thread. I remember helping him siphon all the gas out of it and jump it to get it running to drive to the local junkyard for disposal.

    That was was the first Imp I dropped off at that junkyard. The second was my brother's '71 coupe, which has a good story. Early 70's Impala "Custom" coupes have a concave rear window. Also all Impalas of that era have the gas filler behind the license plate. I'll leave out why this happened, but he hit a tree in reverse going about 25MPH. The tree hit the rear bumper dead center, making the rear bumper match the rear window perfectly! Unfortunately, it also squashed the fuel filler into a tight 'S', and there was no way to get gas into it. He was about half full when it happened, so he drove the car until it was on fumes, and then I followed him down to the same junkyard where we had dropped my buddies '69, and they gave him $25 for it.


    Let's see, trivia. You might get these, but don't google. What was the name of the famous '70 AMC AMX drag car driven by a woman?

    In the late 60's, AMC made a hot muscle car very similar to a Chevy Nova SS. What was it called? The made a hot car very similar to an Impala SS. What was it called?

    What was the name of the famous wheelstanding Dodge forward cab pickup truck?

    What was the Chrysler automatic shifter called, the one used in 'Cudas and the like? What was the 4-speed called? What was the 4bbl carb used on virtually every hot Chrysler in the late 60's/early 70's? What carb was used on the GM cars? What carb was used on Fords? What carb was used on hot AMC's?

    What was the nickname for the Ford Boss 429 engine?

    What was the major common factor between the original Camaro Z/28 and the original Ford Boss 302, and why was that?

    One of the hottest cars made in 1964 was made by a company that went out of business shortly thereafter. What was the company and what was the car?

    Chrysler made two famous cars in '68-70 to qualify for stock car racing. What were they? What was the Ford equivalent?

    What year did GM go on strike, almost killing the company?

    What year was low-lead gas introduced? What year was unleaded gas made mandatory for new vehicles (this is a trick question).

    What was the most common automatic transmission used in drag racing for decades, and why was it used?

    If you wanted limited slip from Ford, you ordered Traction Lok. Name six other trade names used by other manufacturers for limited slip.

    If Traction Lok wasn't going to cut it on your Mustang, what did you order for strip use?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post

    There is an interesting shift taking place in the car collecting world right now - people who give two craps about "old" cars are dying off.
    I am a "car guy" (now a Jeep guy), but I watch my share of Velocity and car oriented stuff with resto's and auctions. Seems like everyone at these auctions is 50+, not many younger people participating. Now maybe the younger people are priced out of it and the hobby needs to bottom out again for them to get back in, but I do remember reading recently that less and less of the younger generation are driving, getting their licenses later and later, and many care more about a top of the line smart phone than getting their first POS car.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Actually, the 307 was known as a dog, and most people swapped in a 327 or a 350...

    In the late 60's, AMC made a hot muscle car very similar to a Chevy Nova SS. What was it called? The made a hot car very similar to an Impala SS. What was it called?

    What was the Chrysler automatic shifter called, the one used in 'Cudas and the like? What was the 4-speed called? What was the 4bbl carb used on virtually every hot Chrysler in the late 60's/early 70's? What carb was used on the GM cars? What carb was used on Fords? What carb was used on hot AMC's?

    Chrysler made two famous cars in '68-70 to qualify for stock car racing. What were they? What was the Ford equivalent?

    What year was low-lead gas introduced? What year was unleaded gas made mandatory for new vehicles (this is a trick question).
    Ah, like so many humans it seems I have a certain amount of mis-information in my brains... Much of this information was stored when I was intoxicated on one dimension or another. Must have been that way with the 307. Maybe the guy said 327 but I heard it wrong because the Ozzy was turned up.

    AMC car like the Nova would be Javelin. I don't know about their sedan, was it a hopped up Matador? There were a certain number of Matador cop cars back in the day...

    Not sure about the MOPAR shifter. Slapshift? (WAG) No idea about the manual. I think most MOPAR muscle cars came stock with Holleys. GM came with Rochester. Fords... hmmm. Don't have a guess. Ditto AMC carbs.

    Superbird and I don't know the other one. Don't remember the Ford.

    Low-lead gas I don't remember. Unleaded was madatory for passenger cars in I think 1974. But there was a loophole for trucks (including pickup trucks) until I think '78 or '79.

    It should be obvious I went with the no Google rule. Otherwise I'd have more answers obviously.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Ah, like so many humans it seems I have a certain amount of mis-information in my brains... Much of this information was stored when I was intoxicated on one dimension or another. Must have been that way with the 307. Maybe the guy said 327 but I heard it wrong because the Ozzy was turned up.

    AMC car like the Nova would be Javelin. I don't know about their sedan, was it a hopped up Matador? There were a certain number of Matador cop cars back in the day...

    Not sure about the MOPAR shifter. Slapshift? (WAG) No idea about the manual. I think most MOPAR muscle cars came stock with Holleys. GM came with Rochester. Fords... hmmm. Don't have a guess. Ditto AMC carbs.

    Superbird and I don't know the other one. Don't remember the Ford.

    Low-lead gas I don't remember. Unleaded was madatory for passenger cars in I think 1974. But there was a loophole for trucks (including pickup trucks) until I think '78 or '79.

    It should be obvious I went with the no Google rule. Otherwise I'd have more answers obviously.
    You came close on several.

    The AMC competitor to the Nova SS was the Rambler Scrambler: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2244449/1969-amc-rambler/ Yes, they actually came from the factory looking like that.

    The Impala SS competitor I was thinking of was the Rebel Machine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1..._by_marina.JPG Yes, they actually came from the factory looking like that. They did have a Matador Machine package later on. We lived through that era, didn't we? "It's a Matador!"

    The auto shifter was the SlapStik, so you get it. The 4-speed was the infamous and goofy Pistol Grip Shifter, which Chrysler actually has kind of recreated in the current Challengers.

    Chryslers used a complex carb called a Carter ThermoQuad. GM used the Rochester QuadraJet, often called the QuadraJunk. Ford used Motorcraft carbs, and AMC used the Carter AFB. Often the high performance variants of all makes would use a Holley carb, and if your car didn't have one, the first thing you did was slap on a Holley, usually one that was too big becasue it sounded cool to have a Holley 750 instead of a Holley 650, but the usual end result was a car that ran poorly, but looked cool when you took off the air cleaner.

    The other more obscure questions: The AMC drag car driven by a woman was the Drag-On Lady. The wheel standing pickup was "The Little Red Wagon". Little Red Wagon wheelstander top seller at RM Auctions Icons of Speed and Style auction - Philadelphia Classic car | Examiner.com

    The Boss 429 was called the "Shotgun 429".

    The original Camaro Z/28 and the Boss 302 both had 302 cu. in. engines, because the Trans Am race series limited them to that size, and the first year of the series they required that teh engines be based on stock blocks.

    One of the hottest cars in 1964 was the Studebaker Grand Turismo Hawk, which had a 335 HP supercharged V-8, and which was obviously not enough to save the company, but those cars rocked.

    You got the Superbird correct, the Plymouth Superbird based on the Roadrunner. The other was the Dodge Charger Daytona. Someone who works at the Rover dealer in Superior has a beautiful Charger Daytona and parks it in the Safeway parking lot on Coalton occasionally.

    The UAW struck GM in the 1971 model year, which is why there are far fewer 1971 GM cars than the years before or after.

    Low-lead was introduced in CA in 1971, which is why horsepower dropped in '71-72. Unleaded gas was mandatory for cars in 1975, but as you pointed out, you could still get a pickup that took regular until 1979.

    Drag racers almost always used the infamous two-speed Powerglide if they ran an auto, because with proper gearing two gears was enough, and Powerglides have lightweight aluminum cases and are very tough.

    Every automaker has a differnt name for their limited slip: Positraction (Chevy) SureGrip(Chrysler), TwinTrac(Studebaker), TwinGrip(AMC), Safe-T-Track (Pontiac), and so on.

    On a Ford in the height of their good stuff, you could get a Detroit Locker differential, which is an actual mechanical locker rather than a clutch pack limited slip.


    I've spent way too much time and money on cars, and I still do.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pearl-drum-man View Post
    I am a "car guy" (now a Jeep guy), but I watch my share of Velocity and car oriented stuff with resto's and auctions. Seems like everyone at these auctions is 50+, not many younger people participating. Now maybe the younger people are priced out of it and the hobby needs to bottom out again for them to get back in, but I do remember reading recently that less and less of the younger generation are driving, getting their licenses later and later, and many care more about a top of the line smart phone than getting their first POS car.
    I'm 24 and I would love to have a nice late 60s or early 70s muscle car. But myself (and many of my friends) are either living at home or struggling to pay rent on rat hole apartments while we try to find jobs that will pay us more than $12 an hour. It's enough of a struggle to pay insurance and put gas in the car I have, much less afford to own a gas guzzling classic that I can only drive on weekends and sunny days.

    So, sorry to be a Debbie Downer but have some faith in the younger generation! The passion is there, but the funds are not.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    ...The Boss 429 was called the "Shotgun 429".
    I also remember lots of reverence for Ford's 351 Cleveland and admiration for the lesser cousin, the 351 Windsor, named for the engine factories they came from. Oversized main bearings I think?

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    ...Low-lead was introduced in CA in 1971, which is why horsepower dropped in '71-72. Unleaded gas was mandatory for cars in 1975, but as you pointed out, you could still get a pickup that took regular until 1979...
    For at least a couple years after 1975 I just realized that I know passenger cars of less than some threshold of displacement could also avoid catalytic converters after 1975. My dad bought a 1975 Subaru that was their most basic front-wheel drive four-door. It had a four-speed and I think 1300 or so cc. It was the car I really learned to drive. You could put regular in it, no catalytic converter.

    This was Michigan. Lots of my friends' parents were buying little japanese cars to have as grocery-getters because all of a sudden gas actually cost something. Pontiac station wagon in the garage, little Datsun in the driveway. In the union-heavy southeast part of the state or the ore-mining upper penninsula, a japanese car with Michigan plates could often be the target of vandalism.
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    I also grew up in MI in the 70's. Graduated HS in 84. I loved going to the car shows and drool over the mopars in all of their high-impact colors (remember panther pink??). My brother had a 340 Duster; took the motor out and re-built it. He would have fun "blowing the doors off" guys with their bigger-engine stock muscle cars who laughed at his little "340". Different times back then.

    I had a chance in 1995 to buy a 71 Challenger RT convertible, blue w/black rag top, 383 stick in pristine original condition for $16,500 from an old gentleman who only drove it on weekends. I had just bought my first house so the car payments would have killed me. I remember the guy telling me "you take care of this car, it will take care of you". Wise old man. Funny thing, there is a retro-challenger in my neighborhood with the same color combo (same RT stripe design too).

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Low-lead was introduced in CA in 1971, which is why horsepower dropped in '71-72.
    How did low-lead reduce HP? I get the impact due to emissions equipment, but I thought the leaded gas was just about protecting the valve seats, etc.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How did low-lead reduce HP? I get the impact due to emissions equipment, but I thought the leaded gas was just about protecting the valve seats, etc.
    Lead in gasoline was used primarily to raise the octane rating cheaply, and the valve lubrication aspect was just a side benefit. When low lead was mandated, the manufacturers had to drop the compression ratios to prevent pinging, thus lowering horsepower. There are other ways to raise the octane, but they are much more expensive than lead, which is why 100 octane unleaded fuel is really, really expensive.

    It made a huge difference. The famous LT-1 350 in the Corvette in 1970 had 11:1 compression and was conservatively rated at 370HP. The 1971 version had 9:1 compression and was rated at 330HP.

    Ford, AMC and Chrysler still made high compression engines in 1971, but they all went to lower compression in 1972. When I was in high school, you always looked for a pre-71 GM car or a pre-72 AMC, Ford or Chrysler. Things got even worse in '73, because there were a bunch of new emission regs that phased in that year. 1973 cars were junk unless you removed the emission controls on the engine. My dad had a '73 Chevelle, and when you shut it off hot, it would sit there and continue to sputter and run for up to a minute with the ignition off, due to dieseling. It was crazy.

    Modern engines use VVT, advanced combustion chamber and intake/exhaust technology, and electronic knock sensors to allow high compression again. The 5.0L in a new Mustang has 11:1 compression. The Skyactiv Mazda 4-cylinders have an unbelievable 14:1 compression ratio.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    I also remember lots of reverence for Ford's 351 Cleveland and admiration for the lesser cousin, the 351 Windsor, named for the engine factories they came from. Oversized main bearings I think?



    For at least a couple years after 1975 I just realized that I know passenger cars of less than some threshold of displacement could also avoid catalytic converters after 1975. My dad bought a 1975 Subaru that was their most basic front-wheel drive four-door. It had a four-speed and I think 1300 or so cc. It was the car I really learned to drive. You could put regular in it, no catalytic converter.

    This was Michigan. Lots of my friends' parents were buying little japanese cars to have as grocery-getters because all of a sudden gas actually cost something. Pontiac station wagon in the garage, little Datsun in the driveway. In the union-heavy southeast part of the state or the ore-mining upper penninsula, a japanese car with Michigan plates could often be the target of vandalism.
    The 351 Cleveland was the one you wanted if you were revving, because it had canted valves that were bigger. The 351 Windsor was lighter and more reliable and could still make good power. Ford made some great engines in the 60's and early 70's. They made some real crap in the late 70's though.

    I think you are correct that engines below a certain displacement were allowed to run without catalytic converters for a few years. I lived in the Midwest also, and you would actually be shunned for driving a foreign job, so we never had Subarus pass through!

    Many people were really pissed about the unleaded mandate, and it was almost like a Tea Party atmosphere - almost everyone I knew would immediately remove the catalytic converter and use a broom handle to widen out the gas filler to run leaded gas. There was a guy in the town I lived in who basically made a living doing that, even though it was technically a Federal Offense(!) to remove a catalytic converter. He had no problem doing it, and he had a huge pile of CCs behind his shop. Most cars of the late 70's that had "dual exhaust" actually had a single cat feeding a single muffler that split into two tailpipes for looks. Everyone wanted a true dual exhaust as their first mod.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Lead in gasoline was used primarily to raise the octane rating cheaply, and the valve lubrication aspect was just a side benefit. When low lead was mandated, the manufacturers had to drop the compression ratios to prevent pinging, thus lowering horsepower.
    Ah.. got it. I thought you were talking about just the difference of the fuel itself. Hi-comp + hi-octane = mmmmmm..

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    The Skyactiv Mazda 4-cylinders have an unbelievable 14:1 compression ratio.
    Geez.. really? On E10 pump.. at sea level? I'm trying to grasp how a few sensors get around the physics. I guess you could retard the timing to a silly degree, but that kinda of defeats the whole purpose.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    ...I think you are correct that engines below a certain displacement were allowed to run without catalytic converters for a few years. I lived in the Midwest also, and you would actually be shunned for driving a foreign job, so we never had Subarus pass through!

    Many people were really pissed about the unleaded mandate, and it was almost like a Tea Party atmosphere - almost everyone I knew would immediately remove the catalytic converter and use a broom handle to widen out the gas filler to run leaded gas. There was a guy in the town I lived in who basically made a living doing that, even though it was technically a Federal Offense(!) to remove a catalytic converter. He had no problem doing it, and he had a huge pile of CCs behind his shop. Most cars of the late 70's that had "dual exhaust" actually had a single cat feeding a single muffler that split into two tailpipes for looks. Everyone wanted a true dual exhaust as their first mod.
    In West Michigan where I grew up, I remember all through the 70's hearing people talk about how cars were never going to be what they once were, and in fact you might not even be able to get a V8 soon. I remember being in like 6th grade and being bummed because I might never be able to drive a car with V8.

    In 1985 I got my chance though to have a chevy smallblock. I had the crappiest V8 Chevy ever made: the 1975 Monza.

    It had a 262 smallblock, rated at 110 HP. The 4.3 liter V6 that came as an option on that same car in 1975 made 105 HP. Damned thing couldn't get out of its own way. Further, I bought it from some friends from my hometown, people who had changed the oil perhaps 4 times in the ten years they owned it. I wound up getting a valve job done and had them drop in a moderate Crane Cam. They also sealed off the whole vacuum system and I pulled the Cat off it. The thing came with a catalytic converter the size of a coffee table. So with no emissions and upgraded camshaft, it ran OK. But just OK. I had a little plastic spout adapter that I carried around. It fit onto the end of a regular gas pump and tapered down to the size of an unleaded pump. So I never did the broomhandle thing, but I ran regular in it the whole time I owned it, from 1985 to 1989.

    That car was so stupid. The motor was packed so tight in between the front fenders, they didn't even use normal exhaust manifolds. On the passenger side the manifold flowed forward and then bent around the front of the oil pan to join with the manifold from the drivers side. So it wasn't just single exhaust, it was single even from the manifold. That car was the worst of the kind of crap they were building right around the time that unleaded and catalytic converters made the scene.
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    That's pretty funny that you had a 262 Monza, because that car was infamous. It was based on the Vega, of which I owned a 1974 Vega GT, one of the most pathetic efforts ever in automotive history. Mine had 45,000 miles and used a quart of oil every 500 miles. It was only six years old and the body was literally rusting away. It did, however, have a 4-speed and a tachometer!

    The Monza was way better.

    What was infamous about the 1975 Monza was that the 262 V-8 was so anemic that in California and "High Altitude Areas", and yes that included Denver, you could get a Monza with a 350 V-8 that put out...wait for it...125 HP! There was one slight problem. In those days you had to change the plugs every 10-20,000 miles. You had to actually jack up one side of the engine on a 350 Monza to get at the plugs! Yes, you actually had to unbolt the trans crossmember and the motor mounts, and either use a hoist or a jack under the oil pan to lift the engine enough to get at the spark plugs.

    There were equivalent cars built by the other GM nameplates. The Buick was the Skyhawk and it had the Buick 3.8 V-6, which was a great engine. The Pontiac was called the Astre and the Olds was called the Starfire. Those were definitely the dark days of American automotive history. I remember reading that the fastest American car you could buy in 1976 was actually a 1/2 ton Dodge pickup. Yes, a 1/2 ton Dodge was faster than a Corvette that year.

    I thought cars were finished. Now you can get a Honda Civic that will outgun any Corvette made between 1975 and 1982!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zendog View Post
    I also grew up in MI in the 70's. Graduated HS in 84. I loved going to the car shows and drool over the mopars in all of their high-impact colors (remember panther pink??). My brother had a 340 Duster; took the motor out and re-built it. He would have fun "blowing the doors off" guys with their bigger-engine stock muscle cars who laughed at his little "340". Different times back then.

    I had a chance in 1995 to buy a 71 Challenger RT convertible, blue w/black rag top, 383 stick in pristine original condition for $16,500 from an old gentleman who only drove it on weekends. I had just bought my first house so the car payments would have killed me. I remember the guy telling me "you take care of this car, it will take care of you". Wise old man. Funny thing, there is a retro-challenger in my neighborhood with the same color combo (same RT stripe design too).
    I still believe, hands down, that the best sounding muscle car of the 60's-70's was a 340 Chrysler with dual exhaust running just through the resonators, no mufflers. You could remove the mufflers and the car would pass a sound test at idle because the resonators provided just enough sound containment, but when you got on it, it was basically an open exhaust. 340's rock!

    Could'a, would'a, should'a on the Challenger convertible. That is a desirable car now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    Ah.. got it. I thought you were talking about just the difference of the fuel itself. Hi-comp + hi-octane = mmmmmm..

    Geez.. really? On E10 pump.. at sea level? I'm trying to grasp how a few sensors get around the physics. I guess you could retard the timing to a silly degree, but that kinda of defeats the whole purpose.
    Smart engineers, I guess. Mazda has always been a little different. I've owned three. Two were awesome, but my Mazda minivan was one of the worst vehicles I've ever owned.

    Here is all you would probably want to know about the Skyactiv Mazdas:

    MAZDA: SKYACTIV-G | ENGINE | SKYACTIV TECHNOLOGY

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Smart engineers, I guess. Mazda has always been a little different. I've owned three. Two were awesome, but my Mazda minivan was one of the worst vehicles I've ever owned.

    Here is all you would probably want to know about the Skyactiv Mazdas:

    MAZDA: SKYACTIV-G | ENGINE | SKYACTIV TECHNOLOGY
    Cool.. like variation of a 2-stroke reflected pressure wave. Now it just needs a powervalve... braaap.

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