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  1. #1
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    Ned closures and other happenings (BMA- newsletter)

    I just wanted to post this up for those who don't get the BMA news letters.


    July 10, 2006
    WANT TO BUILD A TRULY TECHNICAL TRAIL ON JULY 22?

    Last year the Boulder Ranger District agreed to open the Little Raven and Waldrop Trails near Brainard Lake to mountain bikes. On Saturday, July 22, we'll be improving the ride on the Little Raven Trail. We'll be building alignments through rock fields and constructing local reroutes (including at least one stretch of side-hill benchcut). The design of the new alignments incorporates natural features of the area to create an interesting and challenging trail. It should be fun and rewarding work.

    We'll meet at the Niwot Picnic Ground at the southwest end of Brainard Lake at 8:30 Saturday.morning. There'll be a lunch, refreshments, and schwag.

    We need volunteers to build this technical trail. Registration required to get a free pass into the project area. Contact Eric Vogelsberg at ericvogelsberg@cs.com to sign up.

    WEST MAG NEWS
    TROUBLE ON TENNESSEE MOUNTAIN

    For those of you that venture beyond the loops of West Magnolia and south toward Rollinsville and Eldora Ski Area, we are sad report that access in this area has taken a restrictive turn. Roosevelt National Forest has many large and small tracts of private property within it's borders, and the land south of West Mag has more private property than public. The family that owns most of this land, which includes most of the Eldora cross country ski network and Tennessee Mountain, have continuously held this land since the 1800's, predating the USFS.

    The owners have discovered an extensive network of trails on their land and they are very upset about it. It doesn't matter who built the trails, how long they've been there or how long mountain bikers and other users have been on these trails. This is private property and access is not a right. Permission must be granted for access, and the owners are not willing to provide permission to anyone.

    The owners of this private property are pressuring the Boulder Ranger District to take steps to curtail the use of public land to trespass on their property. Our continued positive relationship with the USFS and access on legal trails in the area are being put at risk. The popular School Bus trail is at risk, as it takes users directly into their property. The popular spot called the 'toilet bowl' is definitely on private property, as well as the Tennessee Mountain Hut.

    So what to do? PLEASE RESPECT PRIVATE PROPERTY. If you see a No Trespassing sign in this area, believe it. The owners are taking steps to post signs at their property lines and may be employing law enforcement officials to patrol their land and issue trespassing tickets.

    It is our hope that getting the word out and backing off from this land may, in the foreseeable future, open the door to create a dialogue that could lead to some sort of access. The road that connects West Mag with Jenny Creek is the biggest loss in this closure. If we respect this private property now, perhaps in the future the owners will talk with us about access.

    MUD LAKE TRAILS GRAND OPENING
    COMMISSIONERS GO FOR A BIKE RIDE

    On Thursday, July 6, BCPOS held a Grand Opening ceremony at Mud Lake Open Space, the site of our 2005 National Trails Day event where we helped build part of the new trail network. We took the opportunity to invite the Boulder County Commissioners, who were on hand for the event, for a mountain bike ride on the new trails on this property.


    We had a blast! Many thanks to Full Cycle for the loan of three Maverick American bikes; the Commissioners were knocked out with the incredible ride these bikes delivered. Here are links to pictures of Will Toor and his son Nicky, Tom Mayer, Ben Pearlman and BMA Board members:

    http://www.bouldermountainbike.org/g...dlakeride1.jpg
    http://www.bouldermountainbike.org/g...dlakeride2.jpg


    THE 2006 BMA TRAIL WORK SCHEDULE

    MARK YOUR CALENDARS!


    July 22
    Little Raven Trail with USFS - retrofit existing trail for bikes. Details TBD
    How about a bike trail that circumnavigates the Brainard Lake Valley? This is the first half
    August 26
    Little Raven Trail with USFS – retrofit existing trail for bikes. Details TBD
    This is the second half of the Brainard Lake Valley loop
    September 16 Heil Ranch Loop with BCPOS – NEW TRAIL CONSTRUCTION – build the LOOP –
    October 7 Coalton/Greenbelt Trail with OSMP AT THE Greenbelt Plateau TH – NEW TRAIL CONSTRUCTION – Details TBD
    September 30 National Public Lands Day at Buffalo Creek with USFS - Regional trail work day with a coalition of Front Range bike clubs - Details TBD

    October 21 Heil Ranch Loop with BCPOS – NEW TRAIL CONSTRUCTION – build the LOOP –
    ???? West Magnolia Reroute – realign Root Canal Trail away from private property. Details TBD

  2. #2
    Oh, So Interesting!
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    Yeah, one of my friends used to live near the property owners in Rollinsville. I'm pretty sure these are the same people that own the property on Tennessee...These are not nice people by any means, and are known for shooting guns in the direction of people trespassing on a fs road going by their house. They were "here first" and hate everyone living near them. During the 9' snowstorm in Rollinsville a few years ago, they NEVER helped anyone dig out, even though they own front loaders. In fact, they waited days for the neighbors to hire a loader to dig out the road, minuites later they were driving their own equipment down the road to dig out their storage facility in Rollinsville. They also have enough influence to have fs roads leading up to their property closed, and to get rangers out there issuing tickets. Unfortunately, given their apparent hatred of mankind, it is unlikely there will ever be legal access from Jenny Creek to West Mag. One thing I'm unclear about... I though fs road was legal to travel on thru private property...
    .




    Strava: turn off your dork logger when you're not on sanctioned trails.

  3. #3
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    I knew that school bus was on private property but it was my understanding that the owner allowed mountain bikes and not motos. I also knew that the toilet bowl was on private property but I thought it was owned by the same person that has allowed us access to school bus. Is this not true?? Is the toilet bowl and the upper section of trail owned by the Toll family as well????

    Any clarification would be greatly appreciated (I would hate to endanger any trails up that way just because of ignorance)
    Feels like an Arby's night.

  4. #4
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    Might makes right, unfortunately

    Too bad about the School Bus trail, if that is true.. I always respect the closures and private property signs up there, but I have never seen any signs on the School Bus trail. Perhaps they are there now?

    In general, a Forest Service road (such as FS 105 that goes from the Mag trails down to the Rollinsville work center) has access through private property. If the property owners were there before the road existed and did not grant access to the FS to build the road, then it is a private road. I would think that if the FS built the road, they would have required the land owner to grant the FS a thru access. I am not a land access lawyer, so I could be wrong. However, when guns are involved, the owner of the gun is usually in the right, even if they ARE wrong.

    It would appear that a property owner shooting at recreational users of a public road could be brought to court, or at least given a ticket. These people sound like seriously unfriendly and dangerous people, so maybe they need a visit by the county sheriff?

    Steve

  5. #5
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    there is so much confusion over what is private & what is not

    I'd be happy to steer clear of private property, IF I knew where the private property was. For example, some trail up there was re-routed around a mine b/c the mine was on private property. And there were signs posted. So, I assume it all cool now. These folks need to post & then everybody will know the rules.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puddy
    (I would hate to endanger any trails up that way just because of ignorance)
    i've only been up there once, for the first time, last week... but there were signs and fences all over the place at the top, so i don't think there really is any "wiggle room" for misunderstanding-- it is quite clear (from what i saw) where trails cross onto private property (and quite clear they don't want anyone trespassing).

    $.02
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    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  7. #7
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    when I last rode the school bus trail, I noticed a new "no tresspassing" sign just as you exit the "second part" of that trail, onto a two wheel drive rd, which is the one you take north to do the third part of the trail up to the toilet bowl. I didn't think too much about it, as I didn't believe the toll property extended that far east, How can one find out EXACTLY what they own? I'd hate to be restricted by their anger and rage extending beyond the border of their actually property.
    ****

  8. #8
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    rs2477

    Quote Originally Posted by gabbard
    In general, a Forest Service road (such as FS 105 that goes from the Mag trails down to the Rollinsville work center) has access through private property. If the property owners were there before the road existed and did not grant access to the FS to build the road, then it is a private road.
    RS2477 is the statute. Since it's the Toll's (i.e.Tolland) that own the land, and have for many, many moons, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a mining road built on their property at the time. Don't know, though.
    Redstone Cyclery
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  9. #9
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    I rode those trails about two weeks ago and did not once encounter a no tresspassing sign or cross a fence to get to any of the trail, including the toilet bowl. That is why I asked if the toilet bowl and that section of trail directly below it were indeed part of the private land we are not supposed to ride on. If they have since put up new fences and no tresspassing signs than I will be more than happy to not tresspass but I always thought I was being kosher as to private land.

    I still haven't gotten an answer as to whether that is owned by the Toll's or another landownder who is not against mountain biking (like happy bus).
    Feels like an Arby's night.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puddy
    I rode those trails about two weeks ago and did not once encounter a no tresspassing sign or cross a fence to get to any of the trail, including the toilet bowl. That is why I asked if the toilet bowl and that section of trail directly below it were indeed part of the private land we are not supposed to ride on. If they have since put up new fences and no tresspassing signs than I will be more than happy to not tresspass but I always thought I was being kosher as to private land.

    I still haven't gotten an answer as to whether that is owned by the Toll's or another landownder who is not against mountain biking (like happy bus).
    I agree, when considering all the entry points and historical/illegal trails, and fuzzy property lines, it's about as clear as mud.

  11. #11
    Whatever
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    They eat babies, too!

    Kidding...not to be on their side, as I use(d) these trails a lot over the past years...just realize that they own the land, and the guy who owns the land with the mine on it near the top of School Bus, the toilet bowl/Nedodrome, and trails near Tennessee Mtn (not sure if it is the Toll's or not) is building a house up there. The trails will go right next to his house.

    I met that landowner 2 summers ago up at the mine, and at the time he had no problem with mtn bikes. It was motorcycles that in just one ride would create new "trails" all over the place. Then the bikes follow the motos...then word gets out and many more bikes. He didn't really care about that many bikes (again, at that time) but did care about motorcycles. It seems things have changed as they are building a house, and all types of traffic are way up over the last couple years.

    I am not sure what to do about it, but would urge anyone who rides up there and is not a member of BMA to join now at www.bouldermountainbike.org . Then get involved and talk with folks like Mike Barrow who really know what's going on. BMA does regular patrols up there, and works closely with the USFS, especially on trail access and maintenance, and by doing things like that we will create a positive image for mtn bikers and hopefully, eventually, open up access.

  12. #12
    Bad Case of the Mondays
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheRed
    The popular School Bus trail is at risk, as it takes users directly into their property. The popular spot called the 'toilet bowl' is definitely on private property, as well as the Tennessee Mountain Hut.
    I'm deeply saddened by the (potential) loss of these trails. I love the trails up there, and will do what I can to help the situation. I understand the land owner's POV, and will respect the signs as much as it pains me.

    And I guess I can just rely on my secret sta..... Oh wait, I mean Hall Ranch....

  13. #13
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    Not to say "I told you so," but the writing for this has been in the woodwork for years. Most people who live up here do so because - at least on some level - we have an aversion for people in mass and have an almost fanatical will to preserve the woods in something resembling their natural state. A friendly stranger wandering through is fine, but when hordes of folks come - over and over and over again - it raises the cackles. This is what happened on West Mag, and we are seeing the results of it now. The Tolls are good people, and I can totally understand where they are coming from. For me - all I can do is raise my opinion on mtbr.com. They own land, they can close it, and if I were in their position I'd probably do the same thing.

    Boulder County isn't Crested Butte or Alaska. Big city + big time recreation population + hot bed for the environmental community = big issues. Things must be different here if our network of trails is to survive. A little more hush, hush. We rode the West Mag stuff for years when it was under the radar. And it was great to see new people enjoy these trails...hell, I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to boasting about these routes, as anyone who was on those BOA, "Save Ned Trails" group rides can attest. My views have changed a lot since 1999, but the damage was done.

    What am I trying to say? Not much...it's a dead horse. I guess it just reminds me to use discretion when it comes to taking folks on trails, or talking too much about 'em. Not really being a NIMBY - just trying to keep something that was a massive reason I moved up here and endure the 50 mph winds and the zero degree temps during the seven month winter season intact.

  14. #14
    Arrrgggghhh!!
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    I went on a ride up there with Mike Barrow of BMA last weekend to scope things out and get a feel for the closures. The area near the mine on the first part of the Schoolbus is still open to bikes, it only has hand written signs banning motos. That owner is still ok with bikes. I had not heard about the building of the house as stated earlier in this thread.

    The Toll's are the folks that are closing off their property. Their property has been in their family since the homestead act, predating the forest service. This gives them extra power in closing off their land, and really ties the forest services hands. The forest service even went back 75 years to see if there was any instance of the FS maintainig, improving, or building the roads in that area. They found nothing. Clauses such as the existing use provisions can't be applied to this land as it is so old.

    There are now a lot of new yellow signs denoting where private land starts, and banning entry. Don't ignore them. Not only will it continue to piss the Tolls off more, but they have been hiring off duty police/rangers to patrol their land on horseback and write $300 tickets to anyone trespessing.

    There is a yellow private land sign at the top of the schoolbus trail just before it drops into the road that connects to the trail that takes you to the toilet bowl. That is the boundry of the Toll's land. We are no longer able to connect to the Toilet Bowl on the existing trail.

    The Toll's are not interested in talking now. We need to all respect their land, stay off it, let them calm down, and try again later.

    Join BMA, as they are all over this issue.
    Give 'da people 'da air.

  15. #15
    mtbmike
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puddy
    I knew that school bus was on private property but it was my understanding that the owner allowed mountain bikes and not motos. I also knew that the toilet bowl was on private property but I thought it was owned by the same person that has allowed us access to school bus. Is this not true?? Is the toilet bowl and the upper section of trail owned by the Toll family as well????

    Any clarification would be greatly appreciated (I would hate to endanger any trails up that way just because of ignorance)
    We are talking about 2 landowners here... the gentleman that owns the Phoenix townsite and Champion mine is the person that is ok with bikes and we are talking further south for the closures. The School Bus remains open, there is a No Trespassing sign at the very top of the climb, before you drop down through the aspens onto the doubletrack. Go any further south and you are trespassing. Yes, there are spots of public land further south, but we don't have a definitive understanding of where they are. BMA is working with the USFS to figure that one out.
    mtbmike
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    RS2477 is the statute. Since it's the Toll's (i.e.Tolland) that own the land, and have for many, many moons, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a mining road built on their property at the time. Don't know, though.
    FS503 is the road that connects West Mag with Jenny Creek. The USFS has zero access to the road. They went back 75 years to determine if they had ever maintained the road. nada....

    FS105 and FS109 remain open and will remain so for the foreseeable future. I believe, but am not certain, that you can use FS503 to get to FS109 legally. But know that if you deviate off these roads you are likely trespassing.

    The Boulder Ranger District sells modified 7.5" quads showing "alienated lands within the forest" aka private property and lands owned by other agencies than the USFS, and the Nederland quad distinctly shows where the problems are. Unfortunately, these lines on a map can be up to 400' off, so getting it right can be a challenge.
    mtbmike
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  17. #17
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    Thanks mtbmike1 for the clarification! That is crystal clear!
    Feels like an Arby's night.

  18. #18
    Shattering Glass
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    Bunch of greedy nimbys. Motorcycles are a nuicance IMO and I'd bet it fueled this closure since they tear the sht out of that place!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    when I last rode the school bus trail, I noticed a new "no tresspassing" sign just as you exit the "second part" of that trail, onto a two wheel drive rd, which is the one you take north to do the third part of the trail up to the toilet bowl. I didn't think too much about it, as I didn't believe the toll property extended that far east, How can one find out EXACTLY what they own? I'd hate to be restricted by their anger and rage extending beyond the border of their actually property.
    I saw this sign last night. Its brown and white metal, you can't miss it. Definatly from the FS.

    Somthing to the effect of Private property ahead. No tresspassing without PERMISION.

    Does this mean we just gotta ask? Who do we ask? Heck if I gotta go up to their front door with a bottle of wine and cheese just to ride I'll do it.

    In any case I turned away and rode elswhere last night.

  20. #20
    mtbmike
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    Quote Originally Posted by moment
    I saw this sign last night. Its brown and white metal, you can't miss it. Definatly from the FS.

    Somthing to the effect of Private property ahead. No tresspassing without PERMISION.

    Does this mean we just gotta ask? Who do we ask? Heck if I gotta go up to their front door with a bottle of wine and cheese just to ride I'll do it.

    In any case I turned away and rode elswhere last night.
    The owners are not going to grant permission. BMA has tried, through contacts with the Forest Service, to communicate with the owners. At one point they were willing to talk, but did not respond to our overtures. We later found out via the USFS then there was an unexplained change of heart. They don't want to talk to anyone.

    The Forest Service sign that says "private property ahead, permission required" is not placed at the property line. You can continue on the School Bus to the top of the climb, where you will find an actual No Trespassing sign.

    It is BMA's hope that we can determine where the private property is and reroute the School Bus away from the private property and give riders a positive alternative.

    But in the meantime, we need to back off.
    mtbmike
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  21. #21
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    Thx Bma

    thanks for the hard work. And yes I am a member/contributor.

  22. #22
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    I was up there last night and saw the new forest service sign as well as the no tresspassing sign stuck on a tree further up the trail. It was getting late so didn't have time but I think it would do the mtb community a real favor if someone (bma, forest service) would place some logs across the trail. That is a lot clearer than a sign that is only pointed in one direction. Untill last night I had never ridden up that we had always cruised up the road and would have never seen this sign on the way down. Logs across the trail would have made us stop and see the sign.
    Feels like an Arby's night.

  23. #23
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    When you get the OK for a re-route could you build some ladder bridges and teeter totters.
    Maybe a 3 and 5 foot drop. ( sarcasm )

    LOL!!!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike1
    The owners are not going to grant permission. BMA has tried, through contacts with the Forest Service, to communicate with the owners. At one point they were willing to talk, but did not respond to our overtures. We later found out via the USFS then there was an unexplained change of heart. They don't want to talk to anyone.

    The Forest Service sign that says "private property ahead, permission required" is not placed at the property line. You can continue on the School Bus to the top of the climb, where you will find an actual No Trespassing sign.

    It is BMA's hope that we can determine where the private property is and reroute the School Bus away from the private property and give riders a positive alternative.

    But in the meantime, we need to back off.
    Mike,

    Thanks a ton for the hard work on this one, regardless of how it turns out. Also, your description of the property lines clears up a lot of questions I've had for a long time.

    Bryan
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  25. #25
    mtbmike
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    Quote Originally Posted by moment
    When you get the OK for a re-route could you build some ladder bridges and teeter totters.
    Maybe a 3 and 5 foot drop. ( sarcasm )

    LOL!!!!
    That's actually a long term goal BMA has. At the present time, only a very few USFS forests have put in 'features' that you refer to. We had several BMA Board members attend the IMBA Summit in Whistler last month, and they all came back the optimism that this is a natural progression.

    The first step in that progression is to incorporate the natural features of the land that create technical challenge. The trail work days we are doing with the USFS this year (see the trail work article at the top of this thread) is going to be the first time BMA and the USFS are deliberately working on creating a very challenging trail aligment. This is new stuff for us and new stuff for the Boulder Ranger District. But the USFS is willing to take baby steps in that direction.

    We build on successes and public support of those efforts. If we get a tremendous amount of participation and interest, the USFS will definitely notice.

    As for OSMP and BCPOS, they will take longer to bring around. But there is reason for long term optimism. The last article in the BMA newsletter (above) talks about how we got the Boulder County Commissioners out on the Mud Lake Trails on Mavericks.

    Will Toor, an avid cyclist, brought his 10 year old son Nicky along for the ride. The trails at Mud Lake are way easy, but I had the group stop a rock outcropping to talk about how serendipitous it was that the designers routed the trail around this rock.

    They didn't understand until I had Jason (Vogelman!) ride up on the rock, do a trackstand, bunny hop and change direction, and then ride off the rock.

    Nicky Toor was stunned.... His father noticed and said, "Nicky, you want to do stuff like that?" "Yeah!!!!", Nicky exclaimed. Will Toor said it might be time to increase his level of health insurance.

    You can't buy that kind of influence..... out of the mouths of babes....
    Last edited by mtbmike1; 07-13-2006 at 11:22 AM.
    mtbmike
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