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Thread: Moots Cinco

  1. #1
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    Moots Cinco

    Anyone 'round these parts have one?

    Like it? Worth the big chee$e?

    I have a Moots road bike and I love it, contemplating a new XC-ish bike, and the custom fit option appeals to me, as does having twin ti rigs in the garage.
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    check out vecchios in boulder. theys got all sorts of moots up in the piece

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    I am in awe of that shop. I was there once years ago, and I was so blown away I'm almost scared to go back because I haven't learned to speak Italian yet.
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    yes, they are biking gods

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    Got one and love it.

    Manmountain Dense,

    I have had a Cinco for the better part of two years and totally groove on it. I had a YBB before that and the Cinco is my first real dual squishie. It is set up in a "all mountain" group, with King/Mavic 519 wheels, Race Face Atlas cranks, Cinder 2.25" tires and X.0 shifting and she comes in about 29 lbs. If you go XC on it, you could easily get a 25-26 lb. 5" travel rig.

    As for the ride, it is great. The travel is nice, but the Moots handling is where its at. Plus the guys at Moots are the best and you're supporting a local company.

    I realize you could get a Ventana X-5 for about $1000 less, which has the same rear end, but it still isn't a Moots. If you have the means, go for it. You won't see another one on the trail (unless it is me). The only advise is if you do, get the Fox shock option. The Progressive was a nice feeling shock, but it is a piece of $hit. After I switched to a Fox there are no issues.

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    Something about a Ventana rear on a Moots makes me think:



    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

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    That's pretty funny!!

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    I don't have a Cinco, but I have owned a YBB for 4 years now. I'm love the frame, wouldn't trade it for the world. I'm a big Ti fan and appreciate it's strengths over other frame materials. Given this, I still wouldn't want to own a Cinco. Why? I don't think Ti is a good frame material choice for a FS bike, it's really a waste of money. With an FS platform you really want the linkages and frame to be as stiff as possible. Also, FS technology evolves so rapidly, why invest so much in an FS frame whose design will be obsolete soon?

    If you're going the hardtail or softtail route, I definitely think Ti, and Moots in particular, is worth the investment - otherwise, stick with aluminum.

    Just my 2 cents...

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    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    Something about a Ventana rear on a Moots makes me think:
    I don't think Ventana seeked out moots for the priveledge, it was the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Fubar Rider
    Manmountain Dense,

    I have had a Cinco for the better part of two years and totally groove on it. I had a YBB before that and the Cinco is my first real dual squishie. It is set up in a "all mountain" group, with King/Mavic 519 wheels, Race Face Atlas cranks, Cinder 2.25" tires and X.0 shifting and she comes in about 29 lbs. If you go XC on it, you could easily get a 25-26 lb. 5" travel rig.

    As for the ride, it is great. The travel is nice, but the Moots handling is where its at. Plus the guys at Moots are the best and you're supporting a local company.

    I realize you could get a Ventana X-5 for about $1000 less, which has the same rear end, but it still isn't a Moots. If you have the means, go for it. You won't see another one on the trail (unless it is me). The only advise is if you do, get the Fox shock option. The Progressive was a nice feeling shock, but it is a piece of $hit. After I switched to a Fox there are no issues.
    Right on. Yeah, I absolutely love my Moots Compact road, fits like a glove. I was going to look into the custom fit option with a slightly longer TT so I can keep the stem on the short side (my road bike is a 56, but the TT is 57.5 - long arms), and a 70-degree head angle instead of the stock 71, for a little more stability in the rough stuff. Definitely prefer the Fox RP23, likely would get an F120 RLC, full XO with an XTR front that I have hanging around, XTR cranks and pedals (already have 'em), either custom wheels from Jerry at Mtn & Road or possibly Crossmax SLR (cuz I can get a deal on them), Thompson post and stem (also have them on another bike), BB7's for simplicity. I was shooting for 26 lbs, which splits the difference between my old S-Works hardtail (23ish) and my Nomad (36-37), so I can then kit out the Nomad a little more DH/FRish.

    Regarding the ti frame / linkage -- the linkage is aluminum with bearings at every pivot, so I don't think rear end stiffness or long-term durability will be a problem. As for the flex on the front end, that's the beauty of the custom build - I can request a little more beefiness around the BB and HT/DT/TT junctions. Ti doesn't have to be noodly -- my road bike is super stiff under power.

    And - I don't see that suspension going obsolete in the next 10 years -- I mean, it hasn't gone obsolete in the past 10 years, right? The design has actually proven pretty reliable, and with the stable platform, it should perform on par with VPP or other "anti-bob" designs.

    And do we really think there's some major revolution in suspension around the corner? I know the marketing guys at Trek and Specialized and Giant would like us to believe that the bikes we're riding today will be outdated in 10 years, but really -- aren't we on the downside of that particular bell curve? To be realistic, most of the designs out there have been around over 10 years. Outland designed the VPP in, what, 1995?

    I honestly believe that MTB suspension has evolved to the point where there will be no more "great leaps forward." We may see small improvements on existing designs in the coming years, but really -- since the introduction of stable-platform shocks and the licensing of the VPP (and its many knockoffs, Giant, cough cough), have we really seen anything that revolutionary? DW-link? Trek's spiffy new design? Eh, it's all Coke vs. Pepsi these days. Quality control, fit and finish are the things that set bikes apart. And of course, the motor makes a bigger difference than the machine.

    The Moots appeals to me mainly because of the custom fit option - I get neck and shoulder pain on long rides due to my long arms, and the only way to fit most stock bikes for me is to run a really long stem, which makes the bike steer like a bus, or run a layback post, which makes my pedal stroke feel like I'm riding Biopace. My custom road bike fixed that problem on the road. Now I'm thinking, why not try the same solution on my MTB? Since this bike will be used for 12-hour and 24-hour races and other endurance events, getting the right fit seems paramount to me. And I really do feel that I need full-suspension, a soft-tail won't cut it for my riding style.

    I know there are other, cheaper custom options out there, but -- as stated below, Moots is a local company, and I've dealt with them before and had a great experience. And I have to admit it, I'm a sucker for that ti bling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    And - I don't see that suspension going obsolete in the next 10 years -- I mean, it hasn't gone obsolete in the past 10 years, right? The design has actually proven pretty reliable, and with the stable platform, it should perform on par with VPP or other "anti-bob" designs.

    And do we really think there's some major revolution in suspension around the corner? I know the marketing guys at Trek and Specialized and Giant would like us to believe that the bikes we're riding today will be outdated in 10 years, but really -- aren't we on the downside of that particular bell curve? To be realistic, most of the designs out there have been around over 10 years. Outland designed the VPP in, what, 1995?
    You are right about that.

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    I have a Cinco and live in Golden. It has been great. I got a great deal on a custom frame or I probably would have gone with a Ventana. I have had mine setup as an XC bike (26+ lbs) and more AM (28+ lbs). I am enjoying the AM setup more than the XC setup. I have a Pike on the front to slacken out the HA a little. I think the Cinco will almost always build up a little lighter than the Ventana. I had Moots oversize every tube on the front triangle to stiffen it up. I can not feel it flex in the front triangle only a little of that magical Ti feeling.

    If I was to do it over again, I would either go with a Ventana Ciclon for a "budget" frame or call Kent Eriksen for a custom. I have an Eriksen road frame and it is the only personal bike that will never leave the stable as it fits like and glove. Kent is awesome to work with and offered a little more customer service and input in the design as well. I also like Kent's take on geometry a little more as well, but a lot of this is personal opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoRider1
    I have a Cinco and live in Golden. It has been great. I got a great deal on a custom frame or I probably would have gone with a Ventana. I have had mine setup as an XC bike (26+ lbs) and more AM (28+ lbs). I am enjoying the AM setup more than the XC setup. I have a Pike on the front to slacken out the HA a little. I think the Cinco will almost always build up a little lighter than the Ventana. I had Moots oversize every tube on the front triangle to stiffen it up. I can not feel it flex in the front triangle only a little of that magical Ti feeling.

    If I was to do it over again, I would either go with a Ventana Ciclon for a "budget" frame or call Kent Eriksen for a custom. I have an Eriksen road frame and it is the only personal bike that will never leave the stable as it fits like and glove. Kent is awesome to work with and offered a little more customer service and input in the design as well. I also like Kent's take on geometry a little more as well, but a lot of this is personal opinion.
    Hmm. Hadn't considered Eriksen, but that is very interesting...
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    Truth be told, if I was to do it over in 2007 not 2005. It would be an Eriksen with a Ventana 4" rear - 29er with a fox F29 or a WB magic 110. The only problem with the expense of the Eriksen is that it gets expensive to change your mind and go with the latest and greatest design.

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    Thing is, for the price of a Moots I'd have a stable of purpose-built bikes from a "mainstream" manufacturer.

    Who am I kidding, I'd buy one do-it-all from the mainstream and spend the rest on hookers and blow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoRider1
    Truth be told, if I was to do it over in 2007 not 2005. It would be an Eriksen with a Ventana 4" rear - 29er with a fox F29 or a WB magic 110. The only problem with the expense of the Eriksen is that it gets expensive to change your mind and go with the latest and greatest design.
    I thought about a 29er, but I'm kind of over the 29er thing, and I'm already over the 650b thing before it's even started. I've ridden a few different 29ers, and I own a Karate Monkey, and there are just so many compromises involved between rear tire clearance and DT/fork clearance and fork options and geometry and chainstay length, I could never seem to find the one I really want.

    I looked on Kent's site and he doesn't have the Ventana option? Only the AS-R and the Maverick -- neither of which are particularly appealing to me for various reasons. But it seems that Kent is willing to take on challenges, so it's probably worth giving him a call.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    Thing is, for the price of a Moots I'd have a stable of purpose-built bikes from a "mainstream" manufacturer.

    Who am I kidding, I'd buy one do-it-all from the mainstream and spend the rest on hookers and blow.
    Yeah, the "mainstream" option I have in mind is a Blur LT. But I rode one a while back and the TT felt short with a 110 stem. It would be much more affordable, and then we could split the hookers and blow.

    I dunno. I'm definitely conflicted.
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  18. #18
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    It makes absolutely no sense to me to make a full suspension bike out of Titanium.

    _MK
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    -- Marx, Groucho

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    Yeah, the "mainstream" option I have in mind is a Blur LT. But I rode one a while back and the TT felt short with a 110 stem. It would be much more affordable, and then we could split the hookers and blow.

    I dunno. I'm definitely conflicted.
    Dude. So one scenario gets you a bike.

    The other gets you a bike, hookers, blow, and probably some beer with what's leftover.

    GET WITH THE PROGRAM!


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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    It makes absolutely no sense to me to make a full suspension bike out of Titanium.

    _MK

    That's the beauty of it. It's irrational and decadent.

    I think it makes sense if you go custom, simply because a custom fit implies a long-term commitment to the bike, and titanium will far outlast aluminum in terms of fatigue life. Even the best AL frames only last so long, but titanium should theoretically last forever.

    Plus, it looks cool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    That's the beauty of it. It's irrational and decadent.

    I think it makes sense if you go custom, simply because a custom fit implies a long-term commitment to the bike, and titanium will far outlast aluminum in terms of fatigue life. Even the best AL frames only last so long, but titanium should theoretically last forever.

    Plus, it looks cool.
    Irrational and decadent it is.

    In terms of ride quality, you'll probably have the plushest 5in out there due to the extra frame flex. Control may suffer, though.

    If you want a long lasting, irrational, decadent bike, why not go with a carbon full susser? Like the Ibis Mojo or a Scott something or another? With the Ibis, you would be on top of the technology, curve, too, with the DW-link. If you want to go really irrational, you can go for the Mojo-SL. On the other hand, I hear the flex is bad with the rear end.

    To be objective, I did ride the Moots Cinco at Interbike a couple years back. It was a really negative experience for me. The geometry was tall and steep. Really bad mix. Going custom, you can, of course, alleviate those issues. But the flex of Ti, while really welcome on hardtails, does not translate well to full sussers. Worse, yet, the Cinco runs on bearings, if it at least had bushings, it would help with the flex. I miss bushings and the ultra stiff rear ends of my Turners.

    _MK
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    Good arguments folks.

    I'm in the anti-Ti FS camp for the reasons stated above. From my point of view, it's not so much an issue of cost but rather the introduction of a flexy front end to a super stiff design. Particularly with a Ventana since Sherwood at Ventana offers full aluminum customization.

    This coming from someone who owns both a Ventana and a Kent Ericksen full-custom.

    Icegeek....funny schtuff

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    Thanks for the feedback, guys, this is what I was looking for. The Cinco appeals to me for the reason stated below, but I'm not totally certain it's worth the big dollars.

    Regarding Ibis or another CF frame -- my reasons are possibly irrational, but I dislike and distrust CF in general. I've ridden the Ransom CF, as well as a few CF road bikes (Giant, Fuji, Trek), and I was not impressed. I think it's very dead feeling, and I don't believe in the long-term durability and impact resistance.

    Yes, I know that flies in the face of everything the "experts" say, but I've always been suspicious of hype, particularly when it comes from bike manufacturers. I'm something of a retro grouch at heart.

    And yes I know, they make airplanes out of it, but airplanes typically don't have large rocks smashing into them on a regular basis. It may be fine for road bikes, but I just don't buy it for a MTB. And I know of two different CF Ransom frames that have cracked recently, which didn't make me feel any better about it.

    There are titanium hardtails from the late 80's still out there, and until I see a CF frame that's still running like a clock after 20+ years of abuse, I'm skeptical. So if the choice is one or the other, then I come down on the side of ti -- it's proven. That's not to say they're the only two choices, only that between the two, that's the way I go.

    But a bigger concern for me on this project -- whatever frame material I go with -- is getting the right fit for me, and eliminating the pain in my neck and shoulders on long rides.

    I have short legs in relation to my long arms and long torso, so when a stock frame fits me vertically, it's often too short for my reach -- and if it fits my reach, then the standover is too high, and I have to run the seat low in the frame, so my center of balance is all jacked up, like a little kid riding a hand-me-down bike. All my previous XC bikes have been a compromise between those dimensions, and I've never been really comfortable on long rides.

    I suppose a Ventana custom is an option, I hadn't considered that. I just look to Moots first because I have experience with them, and I love my road bike. And I'm still not sold on the long-term durability of aluminum for a custom frame, so I guess it's a compromise -- is it worth it to buy a custom AL frame that has a finite fatigue life, versus a more expensive ti frame that will definitely outlast an equivalent AL frame, but would require some tweaking to achieve similar stiffness?

    What I don't get is the idea that titanium is unavoidably noodly. It does not have to be. It's all about the tube spec. My road bike frame is super stiff at the BB and the HT, which is just how I asked for it. It's far stiffer than the off-the-shelf steel frame it replaced, but it still has a much livlier feel to it.

    As for the Cinco geometry, yep, I think 71 is too steep, I would definitely tweak that in the specs.

    Also - in all seriousness -- MK -- how it is that bushings result in a stiffer linkage? My impression has always been that they're inherently more prone to wear and contamination, and therefore will develop slop far quicker than sealed bearings. I always thought their only advantage is that they deal with side loading better? But maybe I'm missing something.

    Anyway, thanks everyone for helping me think this through.


    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    Irrational and decadent it is.

    In terms of ride quality, you'll probably have the plushest 5in out there due to the extra frame flex. Control may suffer, though.

    If you want a long lasting, irrational, decadent bike, why not go with a carbon full susser? Like the Ibis Mojo or a Scott something or another? With the Ibis, you would be on top of the technology, curve, too, with the DW-link. If you want to go really irrational, you can go for the Mojo-SL. On the other hand, I hear the flex is bad with the rear end.

    To be objective, I did ride the Moots Cinco at Interbike a couple years back. It was a really negative experience for me. The geometry was tall and steep. Really bad mix. Going custom, you can, of course, alleviate those issues. But the flex of Ti, while really welcome on hardtails, does not translate well to full sussers. Worse, yet, the Cinco runs on bearings, if it at least had bushings, it would help with the flex. I miss bushings and the ultra stiff rear ends of my Turners.

    _MK
    Never rub another man's rhubarb.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    Also - in all seriousness -- MK -- how it is that bushings result in a stiffer linkage? My impression has always been that they're inherently more prone to wear and contamination, and therefore will develop slop far quicker than sealed bearings.
    That, in my experience, is reverse from truth. But it may depend on the execution of bushing pivots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    I always thought their only advantage is that they deal with side loading better? But maybe I'm missing something.
    This is exactly why the rear end is stiffer.

    _MK
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  25. #25
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    Bushings v. Bearings

    It's a non-issue

    I currently own a bushing-pivot Turner Sultan and bearing-pivot Ventana Terremoto in addition to my Ericksen.

    I've owned Titus bearing-pivot bikes in the past and rode that for 3 extremely muddy NJ & VT years.

    Both designs work fine with minimal hassle in a dry environment.

    My Ventana is the stiffest dualie I've ever owned. There's much more to chasis stiffness than bearings v bushings

    PS. In terms of durability & warranty, it's hard to beat Ventana. The rare breakages have always resulted in complete customer satisfaction.

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