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  1. #1
    non-gumbyish
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    Medicine Wheel trailwork ruins technical part of trail.

    I just rode the Kinninick trail in palmer park after the Medicine Wheel trailwork was completed this weekend. To my incredible surprise and great dismay, one of the few technical sections on this trail that gives it the blue trail rating has been destroyed. Anyone riding a unicycle can ride up this formerly trying area. The small ledges that you normally had to manuever around or over have been flattened out with rocks and dirt. If you cannot clean an area of a trail keep trying until your skills improve "DO NOT" make the trail easier by screwing it up for the rest of us who happen to enjoy the challenge of not cleaning it every time. Please Medicine Wheel when you do trailwork, just maintain the trails do not modify the harder sections to make them more rider friendly. All that does is discourage riders like myself from possibly helping you in the future.

  2. #2
    crashes in parkinglot
    Reputation: EricTheRed's Avatar
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    Not sure which trail you are talking about (i usually get a tour from Kristian or other kind soul from the springs). Got any pics of before and after?

    They may have had other reasons to do the maintinence, than just making it easier for bikers. I would recomend getting involved with trail crew so your input as a technical rider can be heard and possibly implemented.

    2 years ago they did a major trail day at Hall ranch, they wanted to narrow down the trail and take out new lines and creat new ones. Me and a couple other posters on here wanted to make sure that "The Step"(one of the hardest moves) stayed the way it was and didn't get filled in, so we vollenteered(sp) to work on that area. Turns out that not all the people on the maintinence crew were avid bikes so our input helped them with insight into creating a good route around the step but also helped us keep the step untouched.

  3. #3
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    Don't take this the wrong way, but where were you when the trail work was being done?

  4. #4
    Chillaxin 'n Chilcotin!
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    That is why I got involved with Medicine Wheel in the first place--to make sure that they didn't go "over-easy" on technical stuff. GENERALLY the crew bosses understand that Palmer is a technical place to ride and that making stuff easier is bad, but some of them are still a little old school (or technically challenged). There is also the volenteer factor where some of the people working might have gotten a little overzealous.

    Last summer we (Loudpaulz, Rick, Kurt, Joe, Matt and a few others) started an after work Medicine Wheel crew and did quite a bit of work on some of lower trails that were hurt by the rain. All I can say is that the best way to make sure trails don't get over simplified is to come out, volenteer and speak up when someone says something like: "let's take this rock out..." Unfortunately, I am unwilling to volenteer on the weekends so I missed the last day and am sorry that a section was sanitized.

    Edit: Re-read that and wanted to give proper credit--it was Matt's idea that we needed an after work trail maintenance day, and Loudpawlz who organized it with Medicine Wheel and brought the tools every day (except for the two weeks when I had tool duty).

    I would be willing to organize an after work trail day for Palmer Park once a week if Medicine Wheel will let me borrow some tools and if people are interested in coming out...
    Last edited by kristian; 05-08-2006 at 07:35 AM.

  5. #5
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheRed
    Not sure which trail you are talking about (i usually get a tour from Kristian or other kind soul from the springs). Got any pics of before and after?

    They may have had other reasons to do the maintinence, than just making it easier for bikers. I would recomend getting involved with trail crew so your input as a technical rider can be heard and possibly implemented.

    2 years ago they did a major trail day at Hall ranch, they wanted to narrow down the trail and take out new lines and creat new ones. Me and a couple other posters on here wanted to make sure that "The Step"(one of the hardest moves) stayed the way it was and didn't get filled in, so we vollenteered(sp) to work on that area. Turns out that not all the people on the maintinence crew were avid bikes so our input helped them with insight into creating a good route around the step but also helped us keep the step untouched.
    That's the way to do it; get involved and stay involved. Thanks Eric!

    ctaylor: Any ideas that you might have about how a trail should be maintained, re-routed or whatever can not be heard unless you are there to help. Looks like you've picked up a shovel before and that's great, keep doing it. Your posting here helps the communication as well but nothing beats being involved face to face.

    All good stuff and good input.

    Ed E
    Last edited by edemtbs; 05-08-2006 at 07:52 AM.

  6. #6
    non-gumbyish
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    Loudpawls, I defininately didn't take your comment the wrong way. I was unable to be there that saturday. I was riding through about 4" of new snow on a shuttle run. The several other times I have shown up at trailwork times at Cheyenne Mt. State Park last season no one showed up at the designated time, because several hours before, they decided to change the time. I would like to help especially if the group Kristian is talking about is going to resume weekday work. Kristian, if we are doing a tuesday ride I will talk to you then. Let me know if you are going to do this and my back, and time are yours to use as you will.

    Thanks, Chris

  7. #7
    Hairshirt Rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by kristian

    I would be willing to organize an after work trail day for Palmer Park once a week if Medicine Wheel will let me borrow some tools and if people are interested in coming out...
    Kristian - We have the green light to do this again. Phil ordered a new set of tools and once those are all here we'll have a set of the old tools we can use at Palmer. I'm perfectly happy to have the garage space back, so if you want to store and transport them that's ok by me.

  8. #8
    I think I can.
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    Seeing as Palmer is home court for me and love everything about the park the Kinnickinnic trail mentioned above has always has been an easy blue to green trail, the only difficult parts of the trail were erosion based and needed shoring up before the summer storms hit. Many people use this park so preventing further damage is the only way to ensure we will have it to use for years to come, you know how people are if they see excessive damage on certain trails they will try to blame the easy target, at palmer it is the bicycles. Don't forget Kinnickinnic is a transition trail to many parts of the park so making this trail stable and safe is best for all parties involved not just bikers.
    As a side note Kurt you rode the trail on Saturday what did you think?

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  9. #9
    Chillaxin 'n Chilcotin!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudpawlz
    Kristian - We have the green light to do this again. Phil ordered a new set of tools and once those are all here we'll have a set of the old tools we can use at Palmer. I'm perfectly happy to have the garage space back, so if you want to store and transport them that's ok by me.
    I'm not perfectly happy to give the garage space up, but it's a small price to pay. Plus, I can use the Pulaskis when I need to chop fire wood into kindling . Speaking of dull Pulaskis, any chance Medicine Wheel can give the tools a good sharpening before we get them? I don't have either the proper tools or the patience to put good edges on the equipment and they were getting pretty dull by last October...

  10. #10
    Chillaxin 'n Chilcotin!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOEMTBR COLORADO
    Seeing as Palmer is home court for me and love everything about the park the Kinnickinnic trail mentioned above has always has been an easy blue to green trail, the only difficult parts of the trail were erosion based and needed shoring up before the summer storms hit. Many people use this park so preventing further damage is the only way to ensure we will have it to use for years to come, you know how people are if they see excessive damage on certain trails they will try to blame the easy target, at palmer it is the bicycles. Don't forget Kinnickinnic is a transition trail to many parts of the park so making this trail stable and safe is best for all parties involved not just bikers.
    As a side note Kurt you rode the trail on Saturday what did you think?
    Kinnickinnic is also a special trail from Medicine Wheel's perspective because they routed and cut it originally. I find the trail boring and the only time I've ridden it lately has been following you and Kurt so I don't know it very well. I remember it being more "technical" when we rode it last than it was a long time ago so maybe some of the features Chris is talking about being changed were reverted to a more "original" configuration like what Medicine Wheel had orignially intended.

    I'm not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing (well, if it's easier, then I guess I'm saying it's a bad thing), but the history of that particular trail might have played a roll too that wouldn't happen the same way on other trails.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kristian
    any chance Medicine Wheel can give the tools a good sharpening before we get them
    Yea, I hate that when all you do is crush your toe instead of lopping it clean off.

  12. #12
    Inflexable...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOEMTBR COLORADO
    As a side note Kurt you rode the trail on Saturday what did you think?
    I think I know what section is in question and yea it is a HELL OF A LOT EASIER. There used to be essentially a rock staircase up with many tricky short moves. Now it is basically a dirt path and most of the rocks are removed. This is a section that sees heavy erosion though...

    You guys know how I feel, everything should be natural after you whack down the bushes so I can get through...

  13. #13
    non-gumbyish
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    Yes that is the section in question. This section used to be a difficult climb to clean which in turn made it fun. If it was an erosion problem then there should have been an area to place a water bar or some other drainage diverting device instead of just adding dirt that will be washed away in the future leaving the same problem (or fun area) to be fixed again.

  14. #14
    Gravy Boat Regatta
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    Quote Originally Posted by kristian
    All I can say is that the best way to make sure trails don't get over simplified is to come out, volenteer and speak up when someone says something like: "let's take this rock out..."
    Down below, Phil encouraged riders to build a line they'd like to ride. (In fact, Phil has always encouraged choices)

    As I recall there will be more days on that section of rock - perhaps this group can put in the advanced line.

    EDIT - point being to the original poster - the volunteers make the decisions. It can go bad. The after work sessions have more volunteers with minds like those expressed here. But work will still happen on the weekends as well.
    Hi

  15. #15
    Chillaxin 'n Chilcotin!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clever_UserID
    Down below, Phil encouraged riders to build a line they'd like to ride. (In fact, Phil has always encouraged choices)

    As I recall there will be more days on that section of rock - perhaps this group can put in the advanced line.
    I think Phil has come a long way in the 8(?) years I've volenteered with Medicine Wheel. When I first met him, I really got the picture that he was not into technical stuff in the trail (at least when it came to Medicine Wheel doing work). For the past 4-5 years though, he has been really good about wanting trails armored--especially in Palmer Park.

    My comments about being there to speak up are probably more legacy related than anything, but I'm also trying to encourage new blood (and backs) to come out and work. I guess more than anything, I'm passing on the reason I started volenteering in the first place.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctaylor05
    Yes that is the section in question. This section used to be a difficult climb to clean which in turn made it fun.
    I think Joe is providing the right perspective. This short climb evolved into a ledgy staircase. I've noticed that the "good" line in both directions has changed several times in just the last two years. That is not a sign of a sustainable trail. That said, I liked the challenge it presented too.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctaylor05
    If it was an erosion problem then there should have been an area to place a water bar or some other drainage diverting device instead of just adding dirt that will be washed away in the future leaving the same problem (or fun area) to be fixed again.
    Getting water off the trail is always an objective, but challenging at Palmer. Water bars end up being obstacles to ride around, no matter how well they are crafted. The dirt is filler. Give it a couple of months and you will find a heavily armoured trail underneath.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudpawlz


    Getting water off the trail is always an objective, but challenging at Palmer. Water bars end up being obstacles to ride around, no matter how well they are crafted. The dirt is filler. Give it a couple of months and you will find a heavily armoured trail underneath.
    I rode palmer Thurs and noticed this section also, I agree it will erode some and become more challenging again, it seems like there were some smaller baby-head rocks that were removed though which made it more difficult so even if it erodes some I doubt it will be the same. I guess we did something similiar last fall when we were doing trail work along the cheyenne trail, it wasn't smoothed out like the section were talking about here but I imagine some folks looked at it that way.

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