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  1. #1
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    Marshall Mesa is going to charge ya if...

    ...if you park at the Southern open space trails and are not a Boulder County Resident....Starting June 27.

    http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_18272782

    No big deal for the most part.

    But If you really, really feel the need to drive to Boulder to ride Marshall, just be aware.....and park somewhere else nearby and ride.

    --Your public service announcement.

    PS: It's easier to park somewhere else, like 100 yards away than complain. I'm just warning you all--for your benefit.
    Last edited by lidarman; 06-14-2011 at 10:25 PM.

  2. #2
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    Ok fine to hell with you boulder i will just stay in jeffco now. not like those trails are that great.

  3. #3
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    Well, this sucks eggs, big time! When work gives me a long lunch, I like to go ride my bike either there or at Betasso. So the fact that I WORK in Boulder doesn't exempt me it appears. Betasso is gonna get really boring..... sigh. I guess Boulder County is trying to keep their trails for Boulder residents. Not an especially wise move.....
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetigirl View Post
    Well, this sucks eggs, big time! When work gives me a long lunch, I like to go ride my bike either there or at Betasso. So the fact that I WORK in Boulder doesn't exempt me it appears. Betasso is gonna get really boring..... sigh. I guess Boulder County is trying to keep their trails for Boulder residents. Not an especially wise move.....
    Just park at the gravel lot by the Northern trailhead of Marshall Mesa or someone else near.

    I live in BoCo but I am not a big fan of this move. I expect to see nearby counties (Jeffco and Larimer) to follow suit, which will suck for me just like this sucks for non-BoCo residents.

  5. #5
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    Sounds like when they "civilized" the Scraggy lot at Buff Creek. Just park 50 yards away and ride to the lot... problem solved.

  6. #6
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    Larimer County already does this - ever ride horsetooth, devil's backbone, etc...
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
    Larimer County already does this - ever ride horsetooth, devil's backbone, etc...
    Does Devils BB do this now? I thought it was only Lory State Park and that one lot at Horsetooth.

    But yup!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
    Larimer County already does this - ever ride horsetooth, devil's backbone, etc...
    DBB is free, as is Bobcat, Coyote Ridge, Soapstone, Maxwell, Crosier, Round Mountain, Red Feathers, the Poudre Canyon trails, yada,yada.

    The ONLY Larimer Cnty park/open space that requires a fee is HTMP.

  9. #9
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    Indian Creek does as well- even the newish 543 lot at BC has a donation post- that red post as you drive in but i dont mind tossing a few bucks now and then - towards the local fire and rescue.

    Are these all the TH around the area- if my son plays in in boulder this next year im gonna be up that way alot- was mapping some rides starting at the new CoaltonTH.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBR me! View Post
    Are these all the TH around the area- if my son plays in in boulder this next year im gonna be up that way alot- was mapping some rides starting at the new CoaltonTH.
    Only three areas to start; South Mesa, Flatirons vista and Doudy Draw.

    South Mesa is a hikers only trailhead.
    Flatirons vista is the one on the west side of hwy 93 just south of 128.
    Doudy draw trailhead is across from South Mesa on Eldorado springs road.

    I would pay attention. They might start slipping in more trail heads. It should be clearly signed but keep a heads up during the summer.

  11. #11
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    Thanks for the heads up! This is really good info and it is appreciated!
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  12. #12
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    Wow, what a sh*tty move by Boulder. The people that run that town have their heads so far up their asses that they can't see the crap they're spewing.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by onbelaydave View Post
    DBB is free, as is Bobcat, Coyote Ridge, Soapstone, Maxwell, Crosier, Round Mountain, Red Feathers, the Poudre Canyon trails, yada,yada.

    The ONLY Larimer Cnty park/open space that requires a fee is HTMP.
    Coulda swore dbb asked for $ but it's been a long time.

    Hermit Park does require an entry fee as well.
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by onbelaydave View Post
    DBB is free, as is Bobcat, Coyote Ridge, Soapstone, Maxwell, Crosier, Round Mountain, Red Feathers, the Poudre Canyon trails, yada,yada.

    The ONLY Larimer Cnty park/open space that requires a fee is HTMP.
    OBD, that's a bunch of different land managers there. Bobcat, Coyote Ridge, Soapstone, and Maxwell are all City of Ft Collins. Crosier and the rest are USFS. Closest Larimer county OS to me is Hermit Park and I have to pay $6 whether I go on foot, bike, or car.

    I just looked at the Larimer County OS. Looks like they charge the hardest hit areas or the places where they feel good about making a buck.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by smmokan View Post
    Wow, what a sh*tty move by Boulder. The people that run that town have their heads so far up their asses that they can't see the crap they're spewing.
    Wow!

    Steve, Maybe you should post that on the Daily Camera Blog. This is definitely an appropriate sort of comment for that forum.

  16. #16
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    Yeah, a little harsh... but well-deserved. It's not like the trails they're charging to use (or to park, whatever) are even that good- they're just crowded.

    I ride Doudy Draw/MM/Flatirons a decent amount at lunch, but luckily there's plenty of other places to park and ride the same network of trails. If they made me pay every time I wanted to ride there, I'd stop altogether.

  17. #17
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    WOW.

    If they're so worried about the lack of parking spaces, maybe they should charge the Boulder/Boulder County residents to park there instead, since they could ride there easier, and shouldn't have to drive!
    Or they could have used the lack of parking as more ammo to approve bikes on the 1 trail in west TSA!

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad andy! View Post
    WOW.

    If they're so worried about the lack of parking spaces, maybe they should charge the Boulder/Boulder County residents to park there instead, since they could ride there easier, and shouldn't have to drive!
    Or they could have used the lack of parking as more ammo to approve bikes on the 1 trail in west TSA!

    Good point. But Boulder residents pay a lot of taxes for open space ( A whole other point of argument every election cycle)....which is much more than that silly $5
    .

  19. #19
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    This will certainly help raise the ire to continue my boycott of MM. Now if I could boycott Boulder County. Unfortunately Lyons and Longmont will not start a move to secede.

    I know no one cares if I don't ride down there I just think this type of thing isn't helping encourage people who already avoid Boulder commercially and recreationally.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman View Post
    ...if you park at the Southern open space trails and are not a Boulder County Resident....Starting June 27.

    http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_18272782

    No big deal for the most part.

    But If you really, really feel the need to drive to Boulder to ride Marshall, just be aware.....and park somewhere else nearby and ride.

    --Your public service announcement.

    PS: It's easier to park somewhere else, like 100 yards away than complain. I'm just warning you all--for your benefit.

    Please tell me there is an exemption for BMBP. Even FRMBP gets to park for free at Little Scraggy. If they are going to charge me to volunteer, I have a problem with that.

    Also, are they going to run every license plate for an address? That seems like an awfully time consuming waste of law enforcement.

  21. #21
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    seems like a bad move, but it is a high traffic area. Even though i live in Boulder, it still makes Boulder look bad and encourages people to go elsewhere to enjoy the outdoors. Personally if i didn't live in Boulder i wouldn't come back as i feel $5 is way too steep, that place should be free for all.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by concretejungle View Post
    This will certainly help raise the ire to continue my boycott of MM. Now if I could boycott Boulder County. Unfortunately Lyons and Longmont will not start a move to secede.
    Oh, there's been talk: http://www.timescall.com/opinion/editorial/ci_18192449

    Highly unlikely though.

  23. #23
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    And another reason Boulder sucks.....sorry but that place just bothers me. We rode all that MM stuff last weekend....what a disaster that place is. People complain about Jeffco trails being crowded....that place was insane. Massive hiking groups *****ing about the government and how "green" they are in Boulder, hammered double track and braided trails everywhere.

    I am not so against the charging to park, but to actually spend money to enforce the charging of non Boulder residents is just strange. Maybe Jeffco should only charge Boulder residents to park at our trail heads.

    If they are going to charge just charge everyone. Makes things much easier to manage.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
    Coulda swore dbb asked for $ but it's been a long time.

    Hermit Park does require an entry fee as well.
    The two ride-worthy trail systems in the Fort Collins area that charge user fees are Horsetooth Mountain Park ($6) and Lory State Park ($7). I guess you could include Curt Gowdy State Park as well ($6).

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    Please tell me there is an exemption for BMBP. Even FRMBP gets to park for free at Little Scraggy. If they are going to charge me to volunteer, I have a problem with that.

    Also, are they going to run every license plate for an address? That seems like an awfully time consuming waste of law enforcement.

    Just heard back from OSMP, volunteers get a parking permit.

  26. #26
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    Eff you Boulder.

    There's a lot a couple hundred yards away. I'll park there until they extend the fees.

  27. #27
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    Yeah, Eff you Boulder. Now excuse me while I go ride your trails.

  28. #28
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    Hum...I wonder if JeffCoOS can mandate a JSCO park usage and parking fee for Boulder residents only...?

    Might cut down on the Professional XC Heroes crowd a...LOT
    Last edited by Pau11y; 06-15-2011 at 08:56 AM.
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  29. #29
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    I'm surprised people are so bent out of shape about the cost. I'm sure it's expensive to maintain a place that gets as much use as Marshall. Bummer that I'm not exempt for working in Boulder, but $25 annually isn't that bad for people who ride there often. Not to mention that it's a charge per car so your buddies can split it with you if you carpool (single use or annual).

    MM seems like an odd place to do something like this since there are several parking options besides the South lot (which I don't think I've ever used). I use the lot at Marshall and Eldorado Springs or the one at McCaslin and Coalton. Am I correct that there will be no fees there?

    If this trend moves forward, people will park along the roads. As a driver, I'd rather see people use parking lots. Nearby residents (like those on Marshall Road) would probably rather users park in lots than in front of their houses.

  30. #30
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    Yes this is controversial. This fee thing has been brought up by several folks through the years. Boulder already charges a fee for non-county folks for use up along Flagstaff. What pushes this is the fact that these are really popular areas. On a nice day you will likely not find a parking space at South Mesa and Dowdy Draw. Some folks worry that parts of open space are over used and this would be a way to help mitigate that.
    Another rational that has been pointed out is that Boulder City and County residents are taxed for open space so this is a way of having other users share the burden.
    As BB points out, there is a $25 annual fee option.

    Should we be getting something else in return? The Open Space Board of Trustees, at least some of them, are pushing for more trails, including some for mountain bikes. Hopefully some of these will materialize in the next few years.

    PS, what is this "rep power" thing under our avatar. And how in the world did Lidarman get a rating of 18?
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cocavaak View Post
    PS, what is this "rep power" thing under our avatar. And how in the world did Lidarman get a rating of 18?
    Cause he kissed Francois's a$$.

  32. #32
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    As a Boulder County resident, this doesn't bother me. And remember, this isn't just city of Boulder, all Boulder county residents are free. And $25 is not a lot to pay if you use these trailheads frequently. And FWIW, if you people actually paid attention, this shouldn't affect you at all. The main Marshall Mesa TH is not included, there's a TH across the highway from Flatirons Vista that isn't included too. How many of you pissing and moaning have stopped to look at whether this will really affect you?

    And even if they add in all those THs, again, it isn't that much money. And it really sucks to drive to the South Mesa TH to hike the dogs and find it 100% full. And Doudy Draw across the street full as well. And they already do this on Flagstaff Mt (and it's been in place for a loooong time), but none of you are *****ing about that because you're not riding there (unless you're poaching illegal trails ).

    And smmokan, if they made all those THs paid, for trails that you ride frequently but don't pay for with your taxes (since I guess you're not a Boulder Cty resident), you'd really ditch riding there rather than pay $25 for the year? If so, well, I guess I like this pay system more and more, it looks like it will make those trails much less crowded!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwhan View Post
    As a Boulder County resident, this doesn't bother me. :
    Of course it doesn't that is the Boulder way.....

    After riding there last weekend I actually commented to my wife how happy I am that we live in Golden and do not have that trail system as our default go to place.

    Also wondering what kind of tax pays for Boulder open space? If it is property tax only homeowners are paying into the system (a lot of rentals in Boulder). If it is sales tax anyone who visits Boulder and spends money is paying into the system.

    It isn't the money it is the principal of it and the fact that they are going to spend time and money to enforce this. Like I already said just charge everyone to park there...the tax argument is BS and from the looks of those trails they aren't doing any maintenance up there anyway.....the whole place is a super highway. Looks like everyone up there uses those trails when muddy.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow View Post
    Of course it doesn't that is the Boulder way.....

    After riding there last weekend I actually commented to my wife how happy I am that we live in Golden and do not have that trail system as our default go to place.

    Also wondering what kind of tax pays for Boulder open space? If it is property tax only homeowners are paying into the system (a lot of rentals in Boulder). If it is sales tax anyone who visits Boulder and spends money is paying into the system.

    It isn't the money it is the principal of it and the fact that they are going to spend time and money to enforce this. Like I already said just charge everyone to park there...the tax argument is BS and from the looks of those trails they aren't doing any maintenance up there anyway.....the whole place is a super highway. Looks like everyone up there uses those trails when muddy.
    Never ridden Betasso...and judging from your post, it's more like Betass-hole? Whatev...more reason to stay away from that 39 sq mile *****hole...
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Never ridden Betasso...and judging from your post, it's more like Betass-hole? Whatev...more reason to stay away from that 39 sq mile *****hole...
    This was all the MM and Flat Irons vista stuff we rode....I haven't been to Betasso either, but have heard it is pretty nice now with the new trail up there. Boulder is what it is and that will never change.....I prefer Golden. Rant over....

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow View Post
    Of course it doesn't that is the Boulder way.....

    After riding there last weekend I actually commented to my wife how happy I am that we live in Golden and do not have that trail system as our default go to place.

    Also wondering what kind of tax pays for Boulder open space? If it is property tax only homeowners are paying into the system (a lot of rentals in Boulder). If it is sales tax anyone who visits Boulder and spends money is paying into the system.

    It isn't the money it is the principal of it and the fact that they are going to spend time and money to enforce this. Like I already said just charge everyone to park there...the tax argument is BS and from the looks of those trails they aren't doing any maintenance up there anyway.....the whole place is a super highway. Looks like everyone up there uses those trails when muddy.
    Always interesting to see people get all bent out of shape about Boulder. Boulder is the DEVIL! Boulder is EVIL! The trails suck and everyone riding them sucks! Well, then, stay the F away and quit your b*tching.

    Yes, I am a Boulder resident and am not pissed about this. So what? The first few times I encountered the pay system (on Flagstaff) I was not a Boulder resident (or a front range resident), and I paid. And I didn't whine. I thought "hmmm, locals get to use the trails for free, out of towners pay a small fee, ok". Don't know why that is so revolutionary or deserving of so much entitled b*tching. And if JeffCO instituted a similar system, I would either pay or not ride there (or not pay and take my chances with a ticket ). One thing I would certainly not do is come on the interwebz and start b*tching about JeffCO and how everyone who lives there sucks.

  37. #37
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    So the High Plains parking lot is still free?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwhan View Post
    Well, then, stay the F away and quit your b*tching.
    I think you are taking the internet a little too serious (no one is making you come to MTBR and read this thread and respond) and this pretty much proves my point about Boulder . Liberal, hippy Boulder is so friendly....

    I don't ride the trails up there much at all.....only been to MM 3 times in 6 years. So you don't have to worry about me crowding out "your" trails.

    Boulder is a unique place....

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow View Post
    Boulder is what it is and that will never change.....I prefer Golden. Rant over....
    +1

    Boulder's special alright...special ed!

    *Now, where the hell is that hornet's nest...
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow View Post
    I think you are taking the internet a little too serious (no one is making you come to MTBR and read this thread and respond) and this pretty much proves my point about Boulder . Liberal, hippy Boulder is so friendly....

    I don't ride the trails up there much at all.....only been to MM 3 times in 6 years. So you don't have to worry about me crowding out "your" trails.

    Boulder is a unique place....
    See, this kind of stuff just makes me laugh. I'm being the unique Boulderite who is so unfriendly, when I haven't said a negative word about anyone, not even you, and I certainly haven't generalized about a bunch of people based on where they live. Yet you give me the rolleyes and say I'm proving your point about Boulder by simply responding to your negative posts. It's really remarkable how that works.

    And I'm not worried about the trails, I never claimed ownership of them. Just said that I don't see the fee as a big deal. But thanks for leaving the trails to me!

  41. #41
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    Sounds like a knee jerk move because some whiny a$$ residents cant get front row parking. Bet they never consider if this would reduce the after hike/ride food and drink sales from us non residents. Oh well those same whiny residents will have something else to complain about when BOCO ask them to open their wallets to make up the difference.

    C

  42. #42
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    Found the hornet's nest...

    Fixed it for ya

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwhan View Post
    Boulder is the DEVIL! Boulder is EVIL! The trails suck and everyone riding them sucks! Well, then, stay the F away and quit your b*tching.
    Just quotin'...
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  43. #43
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    Hopefully they can use some of the money to fix up the trails in the MM/Doudy Draw area, because over the last two years they have significantly degraded in quality and condition. The "singletrack" is 5-ft wide, there are braided trails everywhere, and Boulder is doing their best by discouraging bikers by placing small, loose rocks on almost every trail. Maybe now with less people riding/hiking there, the trails will be a little better.

  44. #44
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    Kind of odd how haphazard they are implementing this. All it's going to do is shift the congestion to all the other lots, at least until they institute it everywhere, which I'm pretty sure they'll do. Forget finding a parking space at even the Marshall Mesa trailhead, which is pretty large.

    I envision a gangland scenario where you have all the Boulderites in the pay lots and all the non-Boulderites in the free lots. Maybe they can all wear blue and we can all wear red? Let's take "trail conflicts" to a whole new level. Any Boulderite caught in the free lots will be subject to an instant shanking.
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    Boulder has MM grants for those that can prove financial hardship. Just call the main number and ask for Trish in the grant dept.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by iMMature View Post
    Boulder has MM grants for those that can prove financial hardship. Just call the main number and ask for Trish in the grant dept.
    Sooo... anyone making less than $120K/yr should qualify?
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  47. #47
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    It's a county taking care of it's residents. I don't see anything wrong with it.

    It's a bit of a gamble on whether that will chase out-of-town dollars away, but that's Boulder's problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    You guys suck im all bummed now

  48. #48
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    I've lived here since 1993 and never ridden a Boulder County trail. But I've heard there are some nice ones...


  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSteve in CO View Post
    It's a county taking care of it's residents. I don't see anything wrong with it.

    It's a bit of a gamble on whether that will chase out-of-town dollars away, but that's Boulder's problem.
    Exactly. But given that these trails are on the South end of Boulder county, I doubt whether many people are hiking or biking and then going into Boulder to spend their money. Of course, they could choose not to go to Boulder some other time based on this, but that seems unlikely to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Sooo... anyone making less than $120K/yr should qualify?
    Sweet! I get a scholarship! Oh, wait, I don't need one.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    I've lived here since 1993 and never ridden a Boulder County trail. But I've heard there are some nice ones...

    Nope, there aren't. Nothing to see here, move along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow View Post
    Liberal, hippy Boulder is so friendly....
    And you betray the real reason you dislike Boulder.

    FACT: People hate Boulder primarily for political reasons. They then try to rationalize that hate by criticizing things about Boulder that are not unique to Boulder or more common there.

    On this board you see plenty of complaints about happenings on Jeffco trails. Either the behavior of trail users, or trail managers, or the trails themselves. What you never see are people using that as an excuse to question the integrity of an entire city located within Jeffco.
    The slightest wiff of complaint from Boulder and you can be pretty sure what will happen next.

    Remember a few years back Jeffco rangers were setting up yield traps and handing out bogus tickets to bikers? I'm pretty sure if this happened in Boulder county so many people would have chimed in hating on Boulder the MTBR servers would have exploded with such force it would create a black hole that would suck in all known matter in the universe.
    But it happened somewhere else. No "only in Golden", "typical Golden", "Golden sucks", "That is the Golden way".

    Same thing happens anytime one group of people hates another group of people. They feel they need to create a justification for that hate.

  52. #52
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    Boulder's just trying to keep the po' folk out. This is neither new nor news.

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    How and why they let me in, I'll never know.

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    Speaking as an outsider, I don't see the issue. The article has a reasonable explanation:
    "We're starting to have more use, especially in the southern area, by people from outside the county. ... (This program) is really to have the increasing numbers of people who come from outside the county pay some share of the cost of purchasing and maintaining open space."
    The only area I think they went wrong was not charging everyone a flat rate.

    I live in Miami and to ride the MTB trails here, you either pay the state park fee to get in or the county park fee. Furthermore, to ride a Broward Country park, you have to watch a safety video (which basically is 20 minutes of riding at your own risk mantra) and get a 'card', which is quite often checked at the trail head.

    I find this thread ironic with the lack of perspective. You guys live in arguably the most spectacular MTB'ing state and have miles of epic trail at your disposal - yet a small fee causes a hangup. I pay $6 to go ride good dirt here in SoFlo (it is not Colorado good) for the passion of the sport.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwhan View Post
    Exactly. But given that these trails are on the South end of Boulder county, I doubt whether many people are hiking or biking and then going into Boulder to spend their money. Of course, they could choose not to go to Boulder some other time based on this, but that seems unlikely to me.

    People live north of Boulder and sometimes we have to ride on your bike paths with our unmotivated friends who live there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by concretejungle View Post
    People live north of Boulder and sometimes we have to ride on your bike paths with our unmotivated friends who live there.
    Clearly, you need some new and better friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenLightGo View Post
    Speaking as an outsider, I don't see the issue. The article has a reasonable explanation: The only area I think they went wrong was not charging everyone a flat rate.

    I live in Miami and to ride the MTB trails here, you either pay the state park fee to get in or the county park fee. Furthermore, to ride a Broward Country park, you have to watch a safety video (which basically is 20 minutes of riding at your own risk mantra) and get a 'card', which is quite often checked at the trail head.

    I find this thread ironic with the lack of perspective. You guys live in arguably the most spectacular MTB'ing state and have miles of epic trail at your disposal - yet a small fee causes a hangup. I pay $6 to go ride good dirt here in SoFlo (it is not Colorado good) for the passion of the sport.
    You obviously haven't spent much time here in the thinner atmosphere, or understand the sense of humor the elevated levels of background radiation causes.
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    You obviously haven't spent much time here in the thinner atmosphere, or understand the sense of humor the elevated levels of background radiation causes.
    How about the irony of having to pay to ride your mountain bike in Florida?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    How about the irony of having to pay to ride your mountain bike in Florida?


    FYI GreenLightGo, we dump on Boulder because it's Boulder, and they think their crap don't stink...and get a rise out of guys like Bagwhan 'cause we can. I'm bored at work and have nothing better to do until 3pm so why not
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    And you betray the real reason you dislike Boulder.

    FACT: People hate Boulder primarily for political reasons. They then try to rationalize that hate by criticizing things about Boulder that are not unique to Boulder or more common there.

    On this board you see plenty of complaints about happenings on Jeffco trails. Either the behavior of trail users, or trail managers, or the trails themselves. What you never see are people using that as an excuse to question the integrity of an entire city located within Jeffco.
    The slightest wiff of complaint from Boulder and you can be pretty sure what will happen next.

    Remember a few years back Jeffco rangers were setting up yield traps and handing out bogus tickets to bikers? I'm pretty sure if this happened in Boulder county so many people would have chimed in hating on Boulder the MTBR servers would have exploded with such force it would create a black hole that would suck in all known matter in the universe.
    But it happened somewhere else. No "only in Golden", "typical Golden", "Golden sucks", "That is the Golden way".

    Same thing happens anytime one group of people hates another group of people. They feel they need to create a justification for that hate.
    Are you assuming I am a conservative or my opinion are political? If so you would be wrong....

    And if people don't like Golden I could care less I love living here and will gladly live with the 50+ miles of trail I can ride from my front door.

    Oh and the GCB IPA doesn't suck either.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    And you betray the real reason you dislike Boulder.
    Betray? Do you mean portray?

    Betray and dislike would be a double negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    FACT: People hate Boulder primarily for political reasons. They then try to rationalize that hate by criticizing things about Boulder that are not unique to Boulder or more common there.
    Do you have documentation to prove this fact? I have heard the term "Tree Huggers", "Envirofreaks", "Hippies", "Yuppies", "Education Types", but I have never heard political demographics.

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    more people should hate boulder, just means less people on the trails which would be a really good thing here especially on weekends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    Betray? Do you mean portray?

    Betray and dislike would be a double negative.
    Betray (4 a)

    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Do you have documentation to prove this fact? I have heard the term "Tree Huggers", "Envirofreaks", "Hippies", "Yuppies", "Education Types", but I have never heard political demographics.
    I have anecumentation. I used to work in FT Lupton and many of my co workers were from Greeley or the towns north along Hwy 85. Through years of lunch breaks I learned many of them had never been to Boulder or even stepped within 20 miles of it. Yet with few exceptions they all hated Boulder. They had not had enough personal contact with the people or place to form such strong opinions, but they did know of Boulders political reputation and formed feelings based solely on that reputation.

    I consider "Tree Huggers", "Envirofreaks" etc. to fall under the political umbrella.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    I have anecumentation.
    I'm so stealing that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    Betray (4 a)
    I don't think he was being unintentional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    I have anecumentation.
    Umm, yeah. That only works with horseshoes and hand grenades.

    All you folk need to take a chill pill. It's Summer, relax, ride, soak in the love. Maybe they'll use the $5 to build new trail. Better yet, they should charge $5 to park at Valmont and give the money to a truly needy organization to purchase a ST240!

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    I'm sure whatever money they collect will be used to build new mountain bike accessible single-track.

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    Arguably more people from Boulder go to Jeffco than vice versa. I hope Jeffco sees what is happening and decides to stick Boulder vehicles with $5 fees at the trailheads just on principle. What a crock, or since we are talking about the birthplace of stupid rubber shoes, what a Croc.

    And to answer a prior question, yes, the Open Space rangers will be running each license plate to see where it is registered. Really pressing activities.

    You can bet if they think this is a money maker, it will be expanded to all the trailheads.

    If that happens, there will still be options to park at the Costco in Superior, the CDOT park and ride at the NE corner of 93 and Marshall, in the CDOT right of way along 128, just for southside trails. There are always options. This is so stupid on so many levels. What about rental cars rented in Boulder? What about people who volunteer to work on the trails, what about students going to CU with out of state plates (totally legal)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    How about the irony of having to pay to ride your mountain bike in Florida?
    You pay to enter/use the park, whether riding your bike or having a BBQ or water ski. Same thing Boulder appears to be doing....charging for the access. I can ride my MTB down my street and not pay anything. I can't ride singletrack though without going to one of the parks, and for that, I pay. I don't know if other parts of Florida are this way, but Dade and Broward are.
    Happiness depends more on the inward disposition of mind than on outward circumstances. Benjamin Franklin

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    Okay, got in a ride...feeling mo sane now. But Boulder still sucks
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    lots of complaining

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Arguably more people from Boulder go to Jeffco than vice versa. I hope Jeffco sees what is happening and decides to stick Boulder vehicles with $5 fees at the trailheads just on principle. What a crock, or since we are talking about the birthplace of stupid rubber shoes, what a Croc.

    And to answer a prior question, yes, the Open Space rangers will be running each license plate to see where it is registered. Really pressing activities.

    You can bet if they think this is a money maker, it will be expanded to all the trailheads.

    If that happens, there will still be options to park at the Costco in Superior, the CDOT park and ride at the NE corner of 93 and Marshall, in the CDOT right of way along 128, just for southside trails. There are always options. This is so stupid on so many levels. What about rental cars rented in Boulder? What about people who volunteer to work on the trails, what about students going to CU with out of state plates (totally legal)?
    There are as many people who use Boulder Open Space as do Rocky Mountain National Park. Its in the millions. So, this is a way to help pay for the costs of the trails. Open Space in the City and the County is funded with sales tax. This is just like many other places that charge a nominal fee. I assume you have been to Slickrock? If the City of Boulder offers a pass good for a year at a reasonable price, great.

    Sure there are ways to get around it. Go for it if you can figure it out. And if it makes you feel better to bash "Boulder", I guess go for it too. But you are bashing a lot of good members of this forum too. So feel free to drive somewhere else. Better yet, try road riding so you don't have to drive anywhere.

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    Chief Niwot was right.

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    All of you should avoid all Boulder County trails. They all suck. West Mag the last two evenings really sucked... and will probably suck again tomorrow. To top it off I may even have to yield up to three times during my ride if it's really busy. Stay in JeffCo, much better riding there, especially Apex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    All of you should avoid all Boulder County trails. They all suck. West Mag the last two evenings really sucked... and will probably suck again tomorrow. To top it off I may even have to yield up to three times during my ride if it's really busy. Stay in JeffCo, much better riding there, especially Apex.
    West Mag is a "Boulder County" trail. I thought it was NFS land?

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    What if you have one of these stickers on your car? Doesn't that mean you're special and don't have to pay?

    What about this one?
    Gotta get up to get down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by concretejungle View Post
    West Mag is a "Boulder County" trail. I thought it was NFS land?
    It can't be both? It's not Boulder County Open Space, but it is a trail in Boulder County.

    But it totally sucks and none of you should ever ride there. Even if the parking is free,

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Arguably more people from Boulder go to Jeffco than vice versa.

    You can bet if they think this is a money maker, it will be expanded to all the trailheads.
    Do you have a source for your "more people going from Boulder to JeffCo than vice versa"? Or are you just making that up, but threw in "Arguably" so you could defend it?

    And did you miss the part about how this system has been in place on Flagstaff Mt for over 10 years? And just now is being instituted here?

    It's not about making money, it's about the fact that these THs (2 out of 3 of which are more geared for hiking than biking) are ridiculously crowded to the point where you often can't find a parking spot. If you're a biker, no problem, there are other close-by options for parking that won;'t significantly change your ride. But if you are a hiker, parking at another TH isn't really an option. So even if all this does is shift some of the parking to other areas, it might still succeed at performing its function, ie lightening the burden on some of these super crowded THs.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwhan View Post
    Do you have a source for your "more people going from Boulder to JeffCo than vice versa"? Or are you just making that up, but threw in "Arguably" so you could defend it?

    And did you miss the part about how this system has been in place on Flagstaff Mt for over 10 years? And just now is being instituted here?

    It's not about making money, it's about the fact that these THs (2 out of 3 of which are more geared for hiking than biking) are ridiculously crowded to the point where you often can't find a parking spot. If you're a biker, no problem, there are other close-by options for parking that won;'t significantly change your ride. But if you are a hiker, parking at another TH isn't really an option. So even if all this does is shift some of the parking to other areas, it might still succeed at performing its function, ie lightening the burden on some of these super crowded THs.
    They should get rid of the trailhead parking altogether. That'll cut down on the crowds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by concretejungle View Post
    West Mag is a "Boulder County" trail. I thought it was NFS land?
    Managed by the Boulder Ranger District, in Boulder County. Split hairs much?

    Replace "West Mag" with "Dot Trails" then if you want to get strict about it. They suck too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwhan View Post
    Do you have a source for your "more people going from Boulder to JeffCo than vice versa"? Or are you just making that up, but threw in "Arguably" so you could defend it?

    And did you miss the part about how this system has been in place on Flagstaff Mt for over 10 years? And just now is being instituted here?

    It's not about making money, it's about the fact that these THs (2 out of 3 of which are more geared for hiking than biking) are ridiculously crowded to the point where you often can't find a parking spot. If you're a biker, no problem, there are other close-by options for parking that won;'t significantly change your ride. But if you are a hiker, parking at another TH isn't really an option. So even if all this does is shift some of the parking to other areas, it might still succeed at performing its function, ie lightening the burden on some of these super crowded THs.

    There are several super crowded trailheads in Jeffco, too. Drive south on 93 from Boulder any weekend and see how many cars with bikes on them are turning off for White Ranch or heading to M/W. Now head north and see how many pull into Doudy or Marshall. No comparison.

    This *is* about making money off of non-residents. How could it not be? If the real purpose was to cut down the number of people driving to the trailheads, they would charge *everyone*, because the locals would be much more likely to live nearby, and therefore would be able to walk or ride there or at least know the secret parking spots. Being selective about it sends a clear message: if you are unfamiliar with the area, give us $5 to park. It is exactly the same as the ski areas having pay parking close in and free parking further out, except locals are excluded from paying for the close in parking.

    GOCO money was used for some of the "Dirty Morgul" trails and many other projects in Boulder. All the BS about Boulder County residents paying for ALL of the trail infrastructure in Boulder County is just that, BS. If they want to start screening by county, then they should have the integrity to *not* use state money. Of course, "Boulder Government" and "Integrity" aren't usually used in the same sentence, as illustrated by Cowles protesting his taxes to have his property value lowered, then selling the property less than a year later for three times its assessed value.

    This doesn't affect me one way or the other because I know where I can legally park outside the lots. The people who will be taken are tourists and others who don't know, which sends a bad and unwelcoming message to people who might otherwise spend money in Boulder.

    I live in Coal Creek Canyon, right on the Boulder/Jeffco line. When visitors come and ask me where to hike or ride, when I tell them they can go to the bottom of the canyon and turn south and enjoy a dozen great areas that are all free, or they can turn north and pay $5.00 to park, I'm guessing they will turn right and go to Jeffco, followed by hitting businesses in Golden rather than Boulder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    There are several super crowded trailheads in Jeffco, too. Drive south on 93 from Boulder any weekend and see how many cars with bikes on them are turning off for White Ranch or heading to M/W. Now head north and see how many pull into Doudy or Marshall. No comparison.

    This *is* about making money off of non-residents. How could it not be? If the real purpose was to cut down the number of people driving to the trailheads, they would charge *everyone*, because the locals would be much more likely to live nearby, and therefore would be able to walk or ride there or at least know the secret parking spots. Being selective about it sends a clear message: if you are unfamiliar with the area, give us $5 to park. It is exactly the same as the ski areas having pay parking close in and free parking further out, except locals are excluded from paying for the close in parking.

    GOCO money was used for some of the "Dirty Morgul" trails and many other projects in Boulder. All the BS about Boulder County residents paying for ALL of the trail infrastructure in Boulder County is just that, BS. If they want to start screening by county, then they should have the integrity to *not* use state money. Of course, "Boulder Government" and "Integrity" aren't usually used in the same sentence, as illustrated by Cowles protesting his taxes to have his property value lowered, then selling the property less than a year later for three times its assessed value.

    This doesn't affect me one way or the other because I know where I can legally park outside the lots. The people who will be taken are tourists and others who don't know, which sends a bad and unwelcoming message to people who might otherwise spend money in Boulder.

    I live in Coal Creek Canyon, right on the Boulder/Jeffco line. When visitors come and ask me where to hike or ride, when I tell them they can go to the bottom of the canyon and turn south and enjoy a dozen great areas that are all free, or they can turn north and pay $5.00 to park, I'm guessing they will turn right and go to Jeffco, followed by hitting businesses in Golden rather than Boulder.
    So, you did just make that up. Anyhow, I bow to your superior analytic skills and knowledge of which county's people are going where, you've convinced me. And you somehow missed commenting on the fact that this fee program has existed on Flagstaff Mt for over a decade. If it's hurting Boulder's economy there, nobody seems to have noticed. Clearly your one person crusade to send visitors to Golden is going to hit hard, though.

    Notwithstanding the fact that this will have little impact on Boulder business, again, you ignore the fact these THs are incredibly crowded. And if a hiker goes to the South Mesa TH and it and Doudy Draw are full, they have no other options. Bikers have plenty of options, and there are plenty of perfectly fine THs that are fee-free for bikers to use. Heck, the Flatirons Vista TH practically has an alternative across the street! So, no, I don't think this is about making money, I suspect that they will pay as much in enforcement as they collect in fees. And I suspect whatever they net in fees will be used to offset the cost of maintenance of those THs. I think this is about overburdened THs and a desire to shift some of that burden both financially and in numbers of visitors. And FTR, none of these THs really serve the Dirty Bismark trails. While one could reach those trails from these THs, there are closer ones that remain free.

    You and many others have missed one important thing: you've looked at this from a biker's perspective (understandable given where we are), saying things like more bikers go from Boulder to Golden than vice versa. I don't think this is primarily about biking given the THs that are being impacted. And given Boulder's off-leash rules -- which are more lenient than JeffCo -- I suspect there are many cars without bikes that you're ignoring. I think this impacts hikers far more than bikers. Heck, when I go to bike those trails, I never park in the lots affected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwhan View Post
    So, you did just make that up. Anyhow, I bow to your superior analytic skills and knowledge of which county's people are going where, you've convinced me. And you somehow missed commenting on the fact that this fee program has existed on Flagstaff Mt for over a decade. If it's hurting Boulder's economy there, nobody seems to have noticed. Clearly your one person crusade to send visitors to Golden is going to hit hard, though.

    Notwithstanding the fact that this will have little impact on Boulder business, again, you ignore the fact these THs are incredibly crowded. And if a hiker goes to the South Mesa TH and it and Doudy Draw are full, they have no other options. Bikers have plenty of options, and there are plenty of perfectly fine THs that are fee-free for bikers to use. Heck, the Flatirons Vista TH practically has an alternative across the street! So, no, I don't think this is about making money, I suspect that they will pay as much in enforcement as they collect in fees. And I suspect whatever they net in fees will be used to offset the cost of maintenance of those THs. I think this is about overburdened THs and a desire to shift some of that burden both financially and in numbers of visitors. And FTR, none of these THs really serve the Dirty Bismark trails. While one could reach those trails from these THs, there are closer ones that remain free.

    You and many others have missed one important thing: you've looked at this from a biker's perspective (understandable given where we are), saying things like more bikers go from Boulder to Golden than vice versa. I don't think this is primarily about biking given the THs that are being impacted. And given Boulder's off-leash rules -- which are more lenient than JeffCo -- I suspect there are many cars without bikes that you're ignoring. I think this impacts hikers far more than bikers. Heck, when I go to bike those trails, I never park in the lots affected.
    Explain how charging a fee *only* to non-residents makes sense if the *goal* is to reduce trailhead congestion. Explain why charging a fee is necessary in December when there are virtually no cars in the lot for days on end. I drive by the Doudy trailhead every day and the number of days out of the year the lot is full is a small percentage.

    There is only one explanation. If the *goal* was only to reduce trailhead congestion, they would charge everyone. That is not the goal. The goal is to somehow offset the costs of running the Open Space program, and they are doing that by targeting non-residents because if they charged *everyone* they would have a textbook Boulder yuppie *****storm on their hands. The problem is that their methods will cause valuable ranger time to be wasted running license plates numbers, will take further administrative time dealing with appeals (what about the Boulder resident whose car is in the shop and is driving a rental?) and it will drive people away from using Boulder trails and visiting Boulder businesses, which let's face it, is what most of the residents of Boulder really want anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    ..and it will drive people away from using Boulder trails and visiting Boulder businesses, which let's face it, is what most of the residents of Boulder really want anyway.
    Yup. Why hide it?

    Boulder is an annoying town full of condescending yuppies, hypocritical hippies and ridiculous politics, but I'd still take that any day over the decaying, stinking, smog-filled, traffic-clogged concrete jungle of Denver. Honestly, if I had a million dollar property in Boulder I'd do what I could to keep Denver at bay as well. If that turns residents of the towns around you into haters.. oh well.

  83. #83
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    I see my attempts to insert levity into this thread have failed. Fight on forum warriors, fight on!

    On a sidenote, I don't see a problem with it except there's no transparency. I'd expect a full disclosure of the total annual revenue this generates and a breakdown of where these dollars were going. You think we'll get that? Doubtful. For all we know that money will go towards the next salary increase the council votes themselves. You think they'll actually spend it all improving the trails and building new ones?

    My only worry is if this takes off it could be like red light cameras. Let's be honest. With the economic crisis, cities and states are doing everything they can to find sources for alternate revenue. Once districts saw how much revenue traffic cams could generate, they started putting them everywhere. There were even several high profile cases where cities illegally decreased the yellow light time at these intersections to catch people in red lights and increase revenue from the cameras. They obviously didn't care about the danger this posed to drivers. Despite several studies that found that they actually increased accidents due to people constantly slamming on their brakes at these intersections, they still popped up everywhere. It wasn't about safety anymore, it was about finding another way to generate revenue.

    The $25 a year isn't so much the issue. If I have to start paying $25 per year to Boulder, $25 to JeffCo, $25 to Larimer, $70 for state parks, etc...then it starts to become an issue. Granted this is a bit off the deep end here, but it could happen. Local governments sometimes mirror one another or adopt each other's initiatives if they are successful. Everything starts somewhere. Even a wildfire can start from a tiny spark.
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    traffic-clogged concrete jungle of Denver.
    Ha...yeah there is no traffic in Boulder.....

    Some of the worst traffic I have been in anywhere is trying to get through Boulder and driving 36 in and out of Boulder is one of the worst commutes on the Front Range.

    You Boulder folks sure are defensive.....who cares if people don't like your town, if you do great that is all that matters there are certainly worse places to live than Boulder. For me I like to ride trail and Golden is just a better place to be able to do so.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow View Post
    You Boulder folks sure are defensive....
    That right there is some good comedy.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow View Post
    Ha...yeah there is no traffic in Boulder.....

    Some of the worst traffic I have been in anywhere is trying to get through Boulder and driving 36 in and out of Boulder is one of the worst commutes on the Front Range.

    You Boulder folks sure are defensive.....who cares if people don't like your town, if you do great that is all that matters there are certainly worse places to live than Boulder. For me I like to ride trail and Golden is just a better place to be able to do so.
    I actually live in Ned. More miles of trail out my front door than you have roads and trail combined.

    I'm just saying that Boulder Does Not Care if you visit. Here's an excerpt from the last published BoCo financial report:

    "According to recent surveys, managing or slowing growth in Boulder County continues to be the primary concern of citizen of the County. Boulder County, the City of Boulder, and some other cities in the County have implemented, or are considering implementing policies that will serve to substantially reduce the rate of growth in coming years."

    Boulder's primary revenue streams do not depend on Denver, and personally I don't know many folks that want to drive out of Boulder County ( West Mag, Dots, Gross, Switzerland, SSV, Walker, MM/DD, Caribou, Lefthand, Betasso, Hall, Heil, Picture Rock, Gunbarrel, Valmont, etc, etc) to hit the overcrowded groomer trails on Apex and Green Mountain.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetigirl View Post
    Well, this sucks eggs, big time! When work gives me a long lunch, I like to go ride my bike either there or at Betasso. So the fact that I WORK in Boulder doesn't exempt me it appears. Betasso is gonna get really boring..... sigh. I guess Boulder County is trying to keep their trails for Boulder residents. Not an especially wise move.....
    Who does the maintance trail work @ both Marshall Mesa and Betasso?

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    i actually live in ned. More miles of trail out my front door than you have roads and trail combined.
    lol
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    I actually live in Ned. More miles of trail out my front door than you have roads and trail combined.
    LOL
    Sounds like your bike computer is busted...
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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    LOL
    Sounds like your bike computer is busted...
    But my GPS still works. The trail links starting 300' from my driveway are virtually limitless.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    But my GPS still works. The trail links starting 300' from my driveway are virtually limitless.
    Funny, so are the roads, cuz that's pretty much how roads work. Can you ride trails all the way to South America? I haven't done it, but am pretty sure I can link roads to get down there...
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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    Funny, so are the roads, cuz that's pretty much how roads work. Can you ride trails all the way to South America? I haven't done it, but am pretty sure I can link roads to get down there...
    Why must the internets always sink to the absurd? I was talking trails my friend. You know what.. nevermind. Ned has no trails, it's all boring dirt roads. Golden is where it's at.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post

    All you folk need to take a chill pill. It's Summer, relax, ride, soak in the love.
    You post this after correcting someones choice of vocabulary and asking for documentation in an attempt to discredit his post? Take your own advice please.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    And to answer a prior question, yes, the Open Space rangers will be running each license plate to see where it is registered. Really pressing activities.
    No, they won't. You can tell if it's a Boulder County plate by the letters and numbers on the plate, no need to look it up.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    I'm just saying that Boulder Does Not Care if you visit. Here's an excerpt from the last published BoCo financial report:

    "According to recent surveys, managing or slowing growth in Boulder County continues to be the primary concern of citizen of the County. Boulder County, the City of Boulder, and some other cities in the County have implemented, or are considering implementing policies that will serve to substantially reduce the rate of growth in coming years."
    Not only does Boulder not care, they wish more people would stay away. This is key to understanding some of Boulder's policies and rules.

    Complaining that "Jeez, doesn't Boulder realize it'll drive people away?" means you don't understand that this is a primary goal. The fact that a restaurant or 2 might lose some business isn't a concern as far as how the open space is managed.

    IMO, the entire world needs to take a break and think about slowing growth. Our prosperity is built on the premise that everything must grow, and pretty soon we will figure out that 6 billion people can't work in businesses that continue to grow year after year. We need to find a different definition and working model of prosperity and success.

    Also, the whole anti-Boulder thing is reminiscent of racist or nationalistic rhetoric. I know some people here are just joking, which is fine... but there are enough who are not. Imagine if you felt the same way about gays or blacks that you do about Boulder. It would be completely unacceptable...

  96. #96
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    Golden sucks
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    You know what.. nevermind. Ned has no trails, it's all boring dirt roads. Golden is where it's at.
    Finally, the truth has set you free!!!

  98. #98
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    Where's the popcorn smilie?
    "Don't take life so serious, son . . . it ain't no how permanent." - Porky Pine

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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    Golden sucks
    ...your what itches?
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
    ╭∩╮( º.º )╭∩╮

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    ...your what itches?
    My fleshy fun bridge, from all that BoCo singletrack.....
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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