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  1. #1
    a dad
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    Keystone... What happened to you..

    Is there a trail crew up there? Have you given up on mtn bikes?

    Was there yesterday and wow is it in bad shape and nothing new..

    Not too long ago Keystone was the place to go, but that is changing fast, or maybe it has already changed seeing as there were very few riders there on a Saturday.

    Sad..
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

  2. #2
    friend of Apex
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    I still dig the tech. But yeah, the flowy stuff is lagging when compared to WP/SV

    I like it there, though. I'm a rock hoar.

  3. #3
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    Family is going to Keystone again this summer after vacationing in WP the last two years.

    I had tons of fun in WP last summer, was getting the feel for the (relatively) easy jumps. Not all the jumps, just the easier ones.

    My son is pretty good and enjoys the challenge of the tech trails. He also goes big when he wants to - he did the biggest jaws drop five times last time we were there. But at WP the only trail that really challenged him was the Crankworx (pro?) downhill. He took me down it once, but I had to walk too many sections - you know, kinda roll or toss the bike down the section and then scramble down, get the bike and go to the next tough section.

    As I recall Keystone has lots of techy trails, but we have not been there for while.

    Here's hoping Keystone is good starting today!

    Happy trails,
    TR

  4. #4
    Oh, So Interesting!
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    I really like Keystone but it needs some work on the chatter in a few places. It's no worse than the rivers of rock and dust that can be found at Sol. It's the mountains, they are rocky and bumpy. I like the tech on Milky>H S Dirt>Jam Rock and the long runs.

  5. #5
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    IMO -- the chatter and bumps are awesome-- the trail crew keeps taking out rocks and roots on certain trails its DH-- lets leave it DH-- -- but they NEED new trails-- they need to build 1 full green, blue, and black from top to bottom-- when I go w/ my girlfriend it is more obvious that they need a good smooth flowy trail

  6. #6
    Armchair Sasquatcheror
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    I couldn't disagree more. Rode there all day yesterday and loved every minute of it. I will admit that WP is stepping up and getting better and better (after being totally stagnant for the last 6 years) However, I can't scare myself at WP like I can at Keystone. The trail crew at Keystone are friends of mine and in their entirity, they are only a couple dudes. This isn't their fault, blame Vail resorts.

    Things are on their way to being more buffed out and there are several new trails in the works. My only complaint from the whole resort was the brake bumps going in to Mom's berms on $.
    "Put the Fun Between Your Legs."

  7. #7
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    Did they resume the free water at the summit? Lack of free water really showed me what Keystone thinks of their customers. Lack of trail maintenance was a bummer, but I agree with the comments about rough riding being part of the sport. Heck, I was spoiled back east by places like Diablo, Highland, and even Sunday River. I rarely find myself doing any DH out here anymore because the CO resorts are so far behind everyone else with trail design, maintenance, and progression-oriented jump design. Hopefully WP will come around with the Whistler guys up there.

  8. #8
    Chillaxin 'n Chilcotin!
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    It seems to me like the sport of DH is splitting into two camps. One group of people seem to like what I think of as classic DH--steep, rocky and rooty trails and a few drops or jumps thrown in. The second group seems to favor smoother "flow" trails like Silky Johnson at Sol Vista or ShyAnn/Rainmaker at Winter Park--trails that are mostly berms and jumps.

    I definitely prefer the classic DH, and I'm looking forward to riding Keystone on Saturday (for the first time this season) because I feel like they have better "DH". Sol Vista caters well to both groups with great DH trails and great flow trails. Winter Park seems more on the flow side of the equation with Trestle being their only "DH" trail.

    After reading your post, I'm curious what I think about Keystone's conditions being in bad shape. I've been riding there for 12 seasons now and I've seen the trails evolve (and devolve) quite a bit during that time. Hopefully things haven't devolved too much this year!

  9. #9
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    Interesting.

    This is pretty much an exact repeat of the skiing debates: Groomers vs. Moguls.

    Or, Moguls vs. Park skiing


    The answer is yes...

    I've been to all three CO areas this year, and IMHO, all are great in their own ways.

    Keystone has more ladders and more sick terrain.

    Winter Park has cool flow and some nice stunts, but the top of Trestle DH is basically a long exercise in sliding your rear wheel, for me anyway.

    SolVista has the rocky downhills with jumps and berms along the way, AND the infamous Silky Johnson, but not as much terrain or vertical.

    99% of the country would love to have any of the three.

    Keystone was weirdly empty when I was there, too. One thing I have noticed is that a lot more people are hitting SV and Trestle and renting, and I don't know if the Keystone rental situation is as together as SV or WP. Holy crap do they have nice bikes and gear at SV. I can't believe they rent stuff that good. And holy crap to they have a LOT of bikes and gear at WP....hundreds....what is the rental situation at Keystone? I know most of the people on MTBR probably don't rent, but if it takes more business to justify more trails/maintenance at Keystone, maybe the rentals are the issue? Cost/availability/quality? I don't know, so I'm just asking.

    Oddly enough, lift-served mountain biking seems to have a lot of the same issues/factors as lift-served skiing. Who would have thought?

  10. #10
    Chillaxin 'n Chilcotin!
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    I like your Moguls vs. Park analogy--that seems to sum it up pretty well.

    What I don't totally get is the reputation of Trestle DH--it seems like solid riders are shying away from that trail. It was by far my favorite trail of the day on Saturday, but I only got in one run because no one else wanted to hit it. It seems to have that reputation online too. I think all three of the DH courses at Anglefire are more gnarly than Trestle, and there are several non-resort DH trails that give me pucker factor way higher than Tdh. If Winter Park had a few more Trestle DHs, I would be there every weekend! (but then again, I'm not a park skier )

  11. #11
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
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    Yes - stick to moguls or park or groomers.

    Leave the really good stuff to the professionals.


  12. #12
    My leg feels funny
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    Yes - stick to moguls or park or groomers.

    Leave the really good stuff to the technicians.

    fixed that for you

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kristian
    I like your Moguls vs. Park analogy--that seems to sum it up pretty well.

    What I don't totally get is the reputation of Trestle DH--it seems like solid riders are shying away from that trail. It was by far my favorite trail of the day on Saturday, but I only got in one run because no one else wanted to hit it. It seems to have that reputation online too. I think all three of the DH courses at Anglefire are more gnarly than Trestle, and there are several non-resort DH trails that give me pucker factor way higher than Tdh. If Winter Park had a few more Trestle DHs, I would be there every weekend! (but then again, I'm not a park skier )

    I love Cougar, Cheezeit, Buc Nasty at SV, I love Cowboy Up/Motorhead/Paid In Full at Keystone and Milky Way down. I rode some great stuff at Whistler last Summer that I don't remember the names of. I like that stuff.

    Honestly, I only rode it once, but the Trestle DH seemed kind of pointless. It had nothing to do with "gnarly" and everything to do with "fun". The top is just sliding back and forth on some switchbacks. Then, there are the little climbing sections? OK...then finally, near the bottom it becomes a little more "normal", but no, I saw nothing on that trail for me but an early replacement of my rear brake pads.

    I'll ride it again next time I am up there, but it just didn't seem like a lot of fun.

    It is in the same vein for me as skiing the Notches at A-Basin. You want to do them to say you did them but for repeated runs, you find something a little more fun.

    Be happy. One less rider to chew it up.

  14. #14
    a dad
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonnySpitz
    Did they resume the free water at the summit? Lack of free water really showed me what Keystone thinks of their customers. Lack of trail maintenance was a bummer, but I agree with the comments about rough riding being part of the sport. Heck, I was spoiled back east by places like Diablo, Highland, and even Sunday River. I rarely find myself doing any DH out here anymore because the CO resorts are so far behind everyone else with trail design, maintenance, and progression-oriented jump design. Hopefully WP will come around with the Whistler guys up there.
    Exactly.. I just got back from my annual Pacific NW trip and CO resorts are far behind the times..

    Keystone could be really good I think if they devoted some time to it.. new trails would be great, but honestly building tons of berms would be great to in order to create more flow.. and some progressive jump lines would be nice..

    I don't think there is anything technically challenging at Keystone but a few steep spots, but they aren't all that difficult, no real pucker factor..
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

  15. #15
    a dad
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    If I could just import a few trails.. maybe A-Line.. Reaper and the Parallel trail.. that would be nice.
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

  16. #16
    zrm
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    I wonder what the economics of resort DH are. It takes a fair amount of money to keep even a fairly small trail crew, lift crew and mechanics (even if it's only one lift), power to run the lifts, some kind of medical staff, etc to keep a resort open. Maybe putting a ton of work (work = $) into the trail system is a money looser for the amount of revenue ticket sales and season passes generate. I'll guess that summer lift served biking doesn't generate much in the way of real estate sales which is what corporate ski areas are about any more.

    I don't know one way or another, just musing out loud.

  17. #17
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    As for new trails, they have a master plan with many new trails awaiting final Forest Service approval. Word is it looks good and should be approved by late summer. Probably not gonna get anything new ready to ride till next summer. As for crappy jumps, yeah they need to do some work. Maintenance, I think the lips and berms are fine. The rough, loose areas are rough and loose on purpose. Don't complain if you ride anything smaller than a full-on DH bike. If you see the survey girl around the base area answer her questions and specifically ask for more/longer jumps. Keystone is very corporate and makes decisions based on "market research" rather than common sense/just looking around. You think they'd have noticed how many riders they've lost to WP/Sol Vista.

    Edit: Responding to the money question posted above. Many of these resorts (definitely Keystone) would run the lift anyway for sightseers/hikers. Compared to all the other employees they have to keep around daily a few trail builders is nothing. Biking revenue used to be questionable but the increasing number of downhillers and their increasing age and wealth mean significant condo rental, bike shop, and restaurant revenue. Just look at Whistler on a weekend. Mountain managers have caught on by now but they have to convince upper management and the Forest Service to embrace MTBing the way they have skiing.
    Keep the Country country.

  18. #18
    Trestle Rental Shop Guy
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit
    Interesting.

    This is pretty much an exact repeat of the skiing debates: Groomers vs. Moguls.

    Or, Moguls vs. Park skiing


    The answer is yes...

    I've been to all three CO areas this year, and IMHO, all are great in their own ways.

    Keystone has more ladders and more sick terrain.

    Winter Park has cool flow and some nice stunts, but the top of Trestle DH is basically a long exercise in sliding your rear wheel, for me anyway.

    SolVista has the rocky downhills with jumps and berms along the way, AND the infamous Silky Johnson, but not as much terrain or vertical.

    99% of the country would love to have any of the three.

    Keystone was weirdly empty when I was there, too. One thing I have noticed is that a lot more people are hitting SV and Trestle and renting, and I don't know if the Keystone rental situation is as together as SV or WP. Holy crap do they have nice bikes and gear at SV. I can't believe they rent stuff that good. And holy crap to they have a LOT of bikes and gear at WP....hundreds....what is the rental situation at Keystone? I know most of the people on MTBR probably don't rent, but if it takes more business to justify more trails/maintenance at Keystone, maybe the rentals are the issue? Cost/availability/quality? I don't know, so I'm just asking.

    Oddly enough, lift-served mountain biking seems to have a lot of the same issues/factors as lift-served skiing. Who would have thought?

    Good observation on equipment. we have 164 bikes actually plus a dozen on season long lease. 64 of them are demo level such as 303's, Aline, scott Voltage and demo 8 II's. Free Ride Friday saw > 120 bikes out just between 4 and 7. definatley the availablity of bikes helps drive success in the park.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kristian
    It seems to me like the sport of DH is splitting into two camps. One group of people seem to like what I think of as classic DH--steep, rocky and rooty trails and a few drops or jumps thrown in. The second group seems to favor smoother "flow" trails like Silky Johnson at Sol Vista or ShyAnn/Rainmaker at Winter Park--trails that are mostly berms and jumps.
    That's pretty much what I see happening as well. But I ride it all. Some days I want to jump and flow and some days I want to survive the steep chunder.

    Pedal Park, er I mean Winter Park is definitely going the route of the groomed terrain park. Trestle DH is actually a fun "classic" DH trail but it's just a black IMO. I rode WP yesterday and was tired from the constant mashing to clear tables not from the beaating I take from the rocky terrain at Keystone. But I had a great time nontheless.

    I'm surprised no one ever talks about the gnarliest DH in CO. First rule about Gnar DH club... Talk about pucker factor.

  20. #20
    Thread Terrorist
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    They both have their pros and cons.... regardless, I see Trestle investing in the trails more recently. I've heard management at keystone just isn't what it used to be... but I know some of the builders and realize there are politics.
    Golden Bike Park Group

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  21. #21
    Trestle Rental Shop Guy
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    I'm surprised no one ever talks about the gnarliest DH in CO. First rule about Gnar DH club... Talk about pucker factor.[/QUOTE]

    gotta be some of the body armor in the shop after a busy weekend? Thats gnarly until it goes thru laundry

  22. #22
    Thread Terrorist
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    My sweat attracts cougars. Don't wash it.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    My sweat attracts cougars. Don't wash it.
    Don't wash it! Bottle it. . . .


    As far as forest service approval at keystone (correct me if I am wrong) but it is my understanding that they have it---- I am guessing they just don't want to invest right now (or ever). Also, I know some of the keystone guys like it smooooth too. . . . so why don't they build a 4x or dual x and jumps at the mountain base?? IMO- smoothing out brake bumps EVER YEAR is kinda pointless. Most of the DH bikes we are all riding are built for world cup courses= full sleds. And keystone is not as rough as these so a few good smashy hard sections are good. But. . . . a few good smooth flowy trails are good too and keystone needs more.

    The park right now is being run by the same women who shut down DH biking at Beaver Creek (which I can understand as a marketing niche concern)-- but I guess we will see how this goes

  24. #24
    bike rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmrider
    The park right now is being run by the same woman who shut down DH biking at Beaver Creek.
    With the amount of talent in Summit County (and the Denver area) I'm amazed at the idiots Vail Corp has in high positions. It's like the larger the business the worse it can be run and still get away with it.
    Keep the Country country.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutchie
    Good observation on equipment. we have 164 bikes actually plus a dozen on season long lease. 64 of them are demo level such as 303's, Aline, scott Voltage and demo 8 II's. Free Ride Friday saw > 120 bikes out just between 4 and 7. definatley the availablity of bikes helps drive success in the park.

    I was blown away by the sheer number of bikes you guys have. I would have taken a photo if I had my camera. That must be a lot of wrenching, and the knowledge you guys gain about what holds up and what doesn't must be priceless to the bike industry. It is like a giant durability laboratory.

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