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  1. #1
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    Jones Park/Bear Creek, trout and the lawsuit - PLEASE READ -

    Things appear to be moving quickly and the Trails Preservation Alliance is looking for help. While the TPA is a group that primary works to ensure single track motorized trail access I think our interests as mountain bikers are aligned on this issue. The possibility that other types of access, mtb in particular, could be impacted can't be ignored or ruled out.

    Please consider making a donation to help the TPA cover the escalating legal costs to help keep 666 & 667 open to everyone.

    FWIW I am not associated with the TPA. I am just passing along the information I have received.

    Hit me with a PM if you want further details.
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  2. #2
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    Why do you believe the interests of mountain bikers are aligned with motorized users when the lawsuit targets motorized use?
    I don't know a great deal about the area so I don't really have an opinion about it. Just curious.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    Why do you believe the interests of mountain bikers are aligned with motorized users when the lawsuit targets motorized use?
    I don't know a great deal about the area so I don't really have an opinion about it. Just curious.

    Because the group who filed the lawsuit has made statements that their agenda is to move any activity they deem harmful off 666/667.

    They don't just want the moto's gone they want the trail closed.
    Last edited by UncleTrail; 11-01-2012 at 01:16 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    Why do you believe the interests of mountain bikers are aligned with motorized users when the lawsuit targets motorized use?
    I don't know a great deal about the area so I don't really have an opinion about it. Just curious.
    Good question.

    1. First and for most I am a member of both user groups as are a lot of the regular users of the trail system
    2. Uncle Trail is correct that there have been overtures made regarding other user groups as well from the CBD
    3. I am a huge fan of multi-user where appropriate. I hate to see any user group lose access based on what appears to be a very biased approach. Without all parties being actively involved the decisions made cannot be unbiased
    4. The moto groups do the lion's share the trail maintenance in the drainage in question

    The TPA has a good reputation for a fair and balanced approach. All I want is someone in the fight, with a good reputation, ensuring all facts and points of view are weighed. At this point the moto group is as close as we are going to get to a mtb dog in the fight.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    Why do you believe the interests of mountain bikers are aligned with motorized users when the lawsuit targets motorized use?
    I don't know a great deal about the area so I don't really have an opinion about it. Just curious.
    Once motos get banned (which they will), word will spread along the front range that Jacks is Moto free MTB use will go up exponentially! Then the tree huger dip shits will target us next saying we are a bigger threat than the motos due to trail "sustainability", chain lube and chamois butter getting in the water! Blaa, Blaa, Blaa. They want the trail closed! Do something, join in with other user groups and keep it open to all or watch it go bye bye.
    Now, lets see thirty koolaid drinking threads about how wrong I am

  6. #6
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    What lawsuit? Can I donate to the group suing the motos?
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  7. #7
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    We just had this discussion.
    Bear Creek Cutthroat Trout - Trail Changes might be coming

    As Waafoo said, motos are just the first, easiest target for the BCD to get momentum going. They are a Sierra Club affiliate. To not recognize that they would parlay a win here to restrict MTB access is incredibly naive.

  8. #8
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    The CBD is using very specific legal grounds to justify their lawsuit. That the forest service did not follow procedures required by the endangered species act when they made the decision to allow motorized vehicles.
    They can't parlay that into anything affecting non motorized use even if they wanted too. No naiveté necessary.

    I am not inclined to be a supporter of the CBD's position. The fact that Trout Unlimited is apparently not a supporter is a good indication the suit is without merit. Just be straight about what the stakes really are and who will be affected.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    The CBD is using very specific legal grounds to justify their lawsuit. That the forest service did not follow procedures required by the endangered species act when they made the decision to allow motorized vehicles.
    They can't parlay that into anything affecting non motorized use even if they wanted too. No naiveté necessary.

    I am not inclined to be a supporter of the CBD's position. The fact that Trout Unlimited is apparently not a supporter is a good indication the suit is without merit. Just be straight about what the stakes really are and who will be affected.
    Ummmm...

    --------------
    This letter serves as official notice by the Center for Biological Diversity of its intent to
    sue Jerri Marr in her official capacity as the Supervisor of the Pike and San Isabel National
    2 Forests (“the Forest”) for violations of the Endangered Species Act (“ESA”) (16 U.S.C. §§ 1531-
    1544), resulting from Forest actions related to off-road vehicle (“ORV”) use in the Bear Creek
    watershed. Bear Creek contains a unique population of the greenback cutthroat trout, which is
    protected as a threatened species under the ESA. Trails designated by the Forest for motorcycle
    use are causing widespread erosion and are damaging this unique population and its habitat.

    According to the Colorado Division of Wildlife, the Bear Creek cutthroat population declined an
    astonishing 30 percent from 2008 to 2011. If this rate of population decline continues, greenback
    cutthroat in Bear Creek could soon be completely destroyed.

    The erosion in Bear Creek that is harming the greenback cutthroat results from the
    Forest’s authorization of motorized recreation of this trail system through 1) the inclusion of
    Bear Creek trails on the Forest’s Motor Vehicle Use Map, 2) the placement of signage
    identifying routes appropriate for motorcycle use, and 3) the Forest’s repeated and on-going
    motorcycle trail maintenance projects. See Motor Vehicle Use Map, Pike National Forest, Pikes
    Peak Ranger District (2010) (“MVUM”); Biological Evaluation of Cap’n Jack’s Motorized Trail
    Reroute, Pikes Peak Ranger District (“Cap’n Jack’s BE”). To date, the Forest Service has failed
    to consult with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to ensure these actions do not jeopardize the
    continued existence of the greenback cutthroat trout. 16 U.S.C. § 1536(a)(2). These actions are
    also resulting in the harm, harassment, and death of protected fish without any authorization for
    the “take” of listed species, as required by the ESA under Section 9. 16 U.S.C. § 1638(a)(1)(A);
    16 U.S.C. § 1532(19).

    By this letter the Center puts the Forest and Supervisor Marr on official notice that their
    actions permitting and facilitating motorcycle use in the Bear Creek watershed are in violation of
    ESA Section 7 consultation requirements and are resulting in unlawful take under ESA Section
    9. 16 U.S.C. §§ 1536 and 1538. This letter is provided pursuant to the 60-day notice requirement
    of the citizen suit provision of the ESA to the extent such notice is deemed necessary by a court.
    See 16 U.S.C. § 1540(g). We may commence this action sooner than 60-days as allowed by the
    Act to prevent “an emergency posing a significant risk to the well-being” of greenback cutthroat
    trout. 16 U.S.C. § 1540(g)(2)(C).
    ----------

    The entire argument is that erosion is destroying the fish population. The rest is trying to find varying technicalities to support their argument. If they are successful in establishing the primary (false) premise that "erosion is destroying the fish", then finding similar technicalities that apply to mountainbikes under the broad and profuse ESA language will be easy.. hell, they can just re-use some of these.

    Start with the easy pickings, then work your way through the user groups from there.

  10. #10
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    The lawsuit isn't really about fish and it isn't really about motorcycles. It is about the alleged failure of a government agency to follow the law. Even if they won this suit it would just mean the forest service would then have to go through the consultation requirements they supposedly failed to follow.

    Establishing that any particular user group is indeed endangering fish would be another legal action entirely and would have to follow. And since we know the premise is false in the first place, what is there to worry about?

    Moreover, the suit is based on the assertion that an action taken by the service has violated the ESA. Bicycle access is not the result of any action taken unless they were forbidden at some point.
    Were bikes ever banned there and then specifically given access? Not as far as I can tell.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    The lawsuit isn't really about fish and it isn't really about motorcycles. It is about the alleged failure of a government agency to follow the law. Even if they won this suit it would just mean the forest service would then have to go through the consultation requirements they supposedly failed to follow.

    Establishing that any particular user group is indeed endangering fish would be another legal action entirely and would have to follow. And since we know the premise is false in the first place, what is there to worry about?

    Moreover, the suit is based on the assertion that an action taken by the service has violated the ESA. Bicycle access is not the result of any action taken unless they were forbidden at some point.
    Were bikes ever banned there and then specifically given access? Not as far as I can tell.
    You are correct that when the issue is boiled down it revolves around the USFS not adhering to the T&E requirements and regulations. That said, the final result very likely would result in the loss of the trail system to motorized use. It is easier to close the trail to specific users than to comply with the ESA requirements (e.g moving the trail and associated costs). As TPA has pointed out to only target the moto group is to continue to ignore the other possible T&E impacts from other user groups. Without a comprehensive T&E study all options are still on the table.
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  12. #12
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    I saw some fancy signs today when I was coming down from the top. I was going to stop and take a picture but it only said I could not camp and shoot for a distance I felt was pretty short. Strange it didnt say anything about fishing.....

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32x18 View Post
    You are correct that when the issue is boiled down it revolves around the USFS not adhering to the T&E requirements and regulations. That said, the final result very likely would result in the loss of the trail system to motorized use. It is easier to close the trail to specific users than to comply with the ESA requirements (e.g moving the trail and associated costs). As TPA has pointed out to only target the moto group is to continue to ignore the other possible T&E impacts from other user groups. Without a comprehensive T&E study all options are still on the table.
    That sounds like a fair assessment. I am inclined to support your position of keeping it open to all users, I just think any suggested threat to bike access is highly speculative at this point.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider View Post
    The lawsuit isn't really about fish and it isn't really about motorcycles. It is about the alleged failure of a government agency to follow the law. Even if they won this suit it would just mean the forest service would then have to go through the consultation requirements they supposedly failed to follow.

    Establishing that any particular user group is indeed endangering fish would be another legal action entirely and would have to follow. And since we know the premise is false in the first place, what is there to worry about?

    Moreover, the suit is based on the assertion that an action taken by the service has violated the ESA. Bicycle access is not the result of any action taken unless they were forbidden at some point.
    Were bikes ever banned there and then specifically given access? Not as far as I can tell.
    Buying the CBD hype? The "action" argument is a red herring itself and has the most potential broad impact to MTBs. Like most USFS trails, this was always open to moto use, it was the 2005 Travel Management Rule (further clarified in 2009) that required the USFS districts to inventory and specifically designate routes open to OHV. Implementation of this rule did not open new routes, but instead closed all the routes that were not specifically designated by being listed on an MVUM. It's a perversion by the CBD to now say that "not closing" a trail is the same as "opening", as though it was previously closed.

    Again, this is another precedent they would love to set. If they are successful with defining this "action" then the same rationale can be parlayed to to apply to all USFS areas where mountainbiking is also restricted to designated routes now or in the future (which is another agenda the enviro groups are aggressively pursuing. E.g. Grand Mesa: http://www.fs.fed.us/outernet/r2/gmu...ch_Scoping.pdf)

    In most cases I agree that MTBs should clearly differentiate themselves from moto. But groups like CBD are pursuing a national agenda to kill off both forms of use and are perverting the interpretations of the ESA a little further with each win. A win for the CBD here is a loss for mountainking as well.

    Do a little research on the CBD.. and especially on it's current use of the ESA. Sure thrilling to see how $21 million of our tax dollars have now gone to lining their attorney's pockets.
    http://www.esablawg.com/esalaw/ESBla...=ESA%20musings

    Big picture man.

  15. #15
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    The lawsuit is an interesting and scary read, and they sure seem to draw a lot of unsubstantiated conclusions? Lot's of lawyer speak and mumbo jumbo.

    I ride through Jones Park several times a month during the week when it's rideable, and I rarely see mtb bikes (maybe a weekend thing?), but I always see at least 2-6 moto's and several hikers. Although they mention illegal use of 666 by moto's, I have never seen one on it nor any telltale signs of there passage. I have seen occasional moto traffic on Buckhorn.

    This statement caught my eye...The Pikes Peak District Ranger recently referred to the larger Bear Creek trail system and attempts to address erosion problems as “challenging because of the high volume of motorcycle and mountain bike use, decomposed granite soils, steep grades and sensitivity to the watershed.”

    I have ridden on the weekend and weekday on the trail system, and I wouldn't call it high volume? Go spend sometime up at the Rampart Range OHV Area by Salida if you want high volume.

    One whopper rain storm by Mother Nature tosses a ton more erosion into the stream than any trail user?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastajet View Post
    I ride through Jones Park several times a month during the week when it's rideable, and I rarely see mtb bikes (maybe a weekend thing?), but I always see at least 2-6 moto's and several hikers. Although they mention illegal use of 666 by moto's, I have never seen one on it nor any telltale signs of there passage. I have seen occasional moto traffic on Buckhorn.

    This statement caught my eye...The Pikes Peak District Ranger recently referred to the larger Bear Creek trail system and attempts to address erosion problems as “challenging because of the high volume of motorcycle and mountain bike use, decomposed granite soils, steep grades and sensitivity to the watershed.”

    I have ridden on the weekend and weekday on the trail system, and I wouldn't call it high volume? Go spend sometime up at the Rampart Range OHV Area by Salida if you want high volume.
    I am with you on this Pastajet. I have been using the trails in questions for 25+ years. Weekday or weekend, once above 666, I rarely have any interaction with other users especially mtb. You and I know the illegal use of 666 by motos is no more of a problem than motos on the Chutes but once it has been uttered someone will continue to beat that drum. Without any further definition the term high volume is meaningless. What is medium volume for the given trail system?

    My main motivation in starting this thread was to pass along the TPA's info and let people decide about supporting the TPA for themselves.

    My secondary motivation is to help ensure the trail system stays open to all users because I am all users. I ride 13+ hours a week mostly on the westside trails. I hike my dog everyday on the westside trails. I ride my moto 5-10 times a year on the trails. I am part of every user group excluding equestrians but only because I don't have a horse.

    I live in COS because of what I can do right outside my door.

    Start to chip away at those options and COS becomes far less attractive.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32x18 View Post
    I
    B]I live in COS because of what I can do right outside my door.[/B]

    Start to chip away at those options and COS becomes far less attractive.
    Bingo. There's a reason I live, not only in COS, but specifically on the west side--having access to this trail network without having to get in a car is a huge QOL issue. Maybe the wildlife appreciates me riding my bike without burning any fossilb fuels to get there?
    All other things are rarely equal . . .

  18. #18
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    I apologize if this is inaccurate or previously stated, but are not bicycles classified as motor vehicles by the department of the interior? More interestingly, wasn't this same classification used in the early ages of mountain biking to restrict/prohibit off-road or trail riding in national parks?
    I ride mountain bike avidly, and also snowmobile, and have seen many seemingly 'good intentioned' lawsuits such as this used solely for the purpose of getting a foot in the door. 'Oh, look at how much we helped the poor (insert your cause here), imagine how much MORE we can do if we could just keep out the (insert your favorite pariah here). Next thing you know, the (insert cause) is the ONLY authorized user of the trail system, and it was all done for your own good. You might have gotten yourself hurt up there, you know.
    I also live in the springs, westside, and moved here BY CHOICE because of the easy access to outdoor recreation. Sadly, some folks seem to have moved here to 'repair the injustice of it all'.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by switchie View Post
    I apologize if this is inaccurate or previously stated, but are not bicycles classified as motor vehicles by the department of the interior?
    You're thinking of "mechanized". It's that classification that keeps bikes out of wilderness areas.

  20. #20
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    Looking throught he U.S. code, the DoI legal definitions, and the mighty wiki, I become easily confused.

    DoI states:
    Mechanical transport means any vehicle, device, or contrivance for moving people or material in or over land, water, snow, or air that has moving parts. This includes, but is not limited to, sailboats, sailboards, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game carriers, carts, and wagons. The term does not include wheelchairs, nor does it include horses or other pack stock, skis, snowshoes, non-motorized river craft including, but not limited to, drift boats, rafts, and canoes, or sleds, travois, or similar devices without moving parts.

    But also states:

    Motor vehicle means any vehicle that is self-propelled.

    Motorized equipment means any machine that uses or is activated by a motor, engine, or other power source. This includes, but is not limited to, chainsaws, power drills, aircraft, generators, motorboats, motor vehicles, snowmobiles, tracked snow vehicles, snow blowers or other snow removal equipment, and all other snow machines.

    The U.S. code is even more vague, and states:

    (6) Motor vehicle. - The term "motor vehicle" means every
    description of carriage or other contrivance propelled or drawn
    by mechanical power and used for commercial purposes on the
    highways in the transportation of passengers, passengers and
    property, or property or cargo.

    I don't speak 'legalize' but can easily see how either of these will supply precedent to include bicycles as motorized vehicles.

    I thought I might have been onto something with the BLM, but reading their stance on bicycles, specifically Mountain Bikes, requires wading through 10 pounds of crap to find the one kernel of corn, if you smell what I am putting down, and my evening is drawing to a close. Suffice it to say, whether classified as a mechanized or a motorized vehicle, you can bet mountain bikes will be next on the target list.

    I think we all agree on that.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by switchie View Post

    I don't speak 'legalize' but can easily see how either of these will supply precedent to include bicycles as motorized vehicles.
    .
    Suffice it to say, whether classified as a mechanized or a motorized vehicle, you can bet mountain bikes will be next on the target list.

    I think we all agree on that.
    The Dept of Interior has used both mechanized and non-motorized vehicles to categorize normal bikes, the latter being an unfortunate terminology. It can get into a gray area with electric bikes, depending on the watts of the motor and max speed which the helper motor can propel the bike to be considered motorized.

  22. #22
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    So as I'm ridding down 666 today, looking at all the new signs about the new highly coveted fish I roll onto High drive. Following the same EXTREMELY delicate and rare waters that is home to this mutant fish I realize that this dirt road I am on (High drive) is criss crossing the river all the way down to the dog park at 21st street.
    So whats a bigger threat to the one off fish that lives here, 10 motos a week that have to cross a bridge on every bear creek crossing or a road with 50 cars a day on it, trash, tampons, condoms, beer cans, bottles, camp fires,BBQ grills, transmission fluid and auto parts all things I have seen in the creek!
    Sounds like a pretty hardy fish...must be to have survived for the last 100 years.
    So are they going to close high drive as well??

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waafoo View Post
    So as I'm ridding down 666 today, looking at all the new signs about the new highly coveted fish I roll onto High drive. Following the same EXTREMELY delicate and rare waters that is home to this mutant fish I realize that this dirt road I am on (High drive) is criss crossing the river all the way down to the dog park at 21st street.
    So whats a bigger threat to the one off fish that lives here, 10 motos a week that have to cross a bridge on every bear creek crossing or a road with 50 cars a day on it, trash, tampons, condoms, beer cans, bottles, camp fires,BBQ grills, transmission fluid and auto parts all things I have seen in the creek!
    Sounds like a pretty hardy fish...must be to have survived for the last 100 years.
    So are they going to close high drive as well??
    I bet that will be pretty imminent. That would also keep the party crowd and casual hiker and picnic types out of there since it's a walk up from the parking lot at the bottom.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waafoo View Post
    trash, tampons, condoms, beer cans, bottles, camp fires,BBQ grills, transmission fluid and auto parts all things I have seen in the creek!
    Obviously you don't understand.... that's ^^^ creating habitat/protection for the fish. It's only the sediment from those pesky knobby tires that kill fish.

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    Here you go. So much for moving the trail.
    FS caves to litigation.
    Motos banned from Bear Creek Trail.

    Forest Service settles with environmental group, agrees to ban dirt bikes - OutThereColorado.com


    "Under the terms of the agreement filed in federal court today in Denver, the Forest Service is required to prohibit off-road vehicles on nearly all of the five trails that run through the Bear Creek watershed. Before any part of those closed trails can be reopened, the Forest Service will have to consult, as required by the Endangered Species Act, with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to ensure that trail use would not harm the threatened fish."


    "The Forest Service also plans to complete a comprehensive assessment of the watershed that could result in additional changes to protect the fragile stream."
    Anyone want to bet MTB's are next?

    Agreement Will Protect Colorado's Rare Greenback Cutthroat Trout

    One last edit.

    You really need to look at the map!
    668 (PIPELINE) is closed too!

    http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/s...r_Creek_PR.pdf
    Last edited by UncleTrail; 11-21-2012 at 02:48 PM.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waafoo View Post
    Once motos get banned (which they will), word will spread along the front range that Jacks is Moto free MTB use will go up exponentially! Then the tree huger dip shits will target us next saying we are a bigger threat than the motos due to trail "sustainability", chain lube and chamois butter getting in the water! Blaa, Blaa, Blaa. They want the trail closed! Do something, join in with other user groups and keep it open to all or watch it go bye bye.
    Now, lets see thirty koolaid drinking threads about how wrong I am
    There you go! Im not really surprised after seeing this last elections results! Keep it up America, MTBs are next. Four more years, four more years! Yeahhhhh

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waafoo View Post
    There you go! Im not really surprised after seeing this last elections results! Keep it up America, MTBs are next. Four more years, four more years! Yeahhhhh
    You are an idiot
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    For those that think this decision won't expand to effect mountain biking, you haven't been paying attention. We're next. While we do have more trails to ride, especially compared to motos, access to any and all of them can be taken away before you can say "not fair".

    The legal grey area that multiple governent agencies avoided allowed motos to enjoy a small trail network. This environmental group exploited that flaw and all sides knew that a protracted legal battle would only have one outcome.

    I can't act surprised, but I'm still upset. It is another reminder that we have no say in decisions made that directly impact our quality of life.

    Thank your "elected" government. It is the best that money can buy.

  29. #29
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    What pipeline is closed to motos? That damn obama fella is ruining all my fun. First bush causes katrina and obama closes down pipeline. Whos/ whats next....

    Really people...................Better get a picket line now and start chanting and screaming as you can see it worked well for the moto guys. Post you political crap somewhere else, if you dont like it then move. I hear alaska still has alot of trails open.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post

    Really people...................Better get a picket line now and start chanting and screaming as you can see it worked well for the moto guys. Post you political crap somewhere else, if you dont like it then move. I hear alaska still has alot of trails open.

    Last time I looked, this was a regional mountain bike fourum. This decision will likely expand to include regional mountain bike trails. If you're a huge poster here, it shows (hopefully) that you care about your local trails. They won't be your local trails if they are closed. I'm sure Alaska has great riding, but I live here and hope to enjoy riding all of our trails for years to come.

    The moto folks were better funded and connected to the agencies invloved than mountain bikers, so yes, we all can see how well it worked for them. Do you see it going any better for mountain bikes?

    I hate it when things get political too, because it distracts us from the real issue and reasonable solutions. Unfortunately, things don't stay rational or reasonable for very long when people feel they are being take advantage of.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    What pipeline is closed to motos? That damn obama fella is ruining all my fun. First bush causes katrina and obama closes down pipeline. Whos/ whats next....

    Really people...................Better get a picket line now and start chanting and screaming as you can see it worked well for the moto guys. Post you political crap somewhere else, if you dont like it then move. I hear alaska still has alot of trails open.
    Wow, another shining example! This type of response on here used to surprise me but not anymore.
    This is a forum, its a form of social media, people use it now-a-days to help support and promote their cause. Not sure what your trying to do but maybe you should move to another forum????

  32. #32
    I did it all for the kudo
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    Quoted from OutthereColorado.com
    "The future of the Bear Creek fish took on a new importance this summer, when research revealed they are the only genetically pure greenback cutthroat trout left anywhere, about 750 living in a 4-mile stretch."
    My feelings are is that if we have a choice of using a trail vs. making a species of fish go extinct... Well then we should close the trail... Do I like it? No. But hey that's life and some things just plain suck...

    I did find some of the other comments coming from the Moto crowd quite comical though.
    "“Why wasn’t the whole thing closed? Because the entire trail system is the problem,” he said. “Now they’re going to let mountain bikes, horses, hikers and others continue to use that trail and cause more damage than motorcycles ever caused.”"

  33. #33
    I'm with stupid
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    [QUOTE=silverlining;9896523.

    Thank your "elected" government. It is the best that money can buy.[/QUOTE]

    This is the "political" statement I was referring to. If we go by that theory please go get rich so you can buy out rights to be on trails................

  34. #34
    I'm with stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waafoo View Post
    Wow, another shining example! This type of response on here used to surprise me but not anymore.
    This is a forum, its a form of social media, people use it now-a-days to help support and promote their cause. Not sure what your trying to do but maybe you should move to another forum????
    Your right this is a mountain biking social media not a ***** about the elections and four more years BS. Clearly you have not shown the ability to notice that and think that your stupid political bs is needed to be added to the conversation. So by wrongly and stupidly interjecting you political views into the wrong social media you have unknowingly done more harm then good for your cause. Coming across as down on American and a doomsdayer does not get people to rally behind you and support your cause.Might have worked for the likes of Manson but not a good way to support your party.Pick your battles. I can tell you exactly what I'm trying to do here. I shall spell it out for you real simple.....

    THIS IS NOT THE SOCIAL MEDIA TO USE TO POST YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS!!

  35. #35
    STRAVA!!!!!!
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    This whole issue is about political views, its unavoidable, sorry.

  36. #36
    Almost Human
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    We've covered a lot of this in other threads but here's my 2 cents;

    1. The Center for Biological Diversity CBD is a Meet the Staff small group of
    attorneys based out of San Fransicko who make a living by exploiting
    loopholes in the Endangered Species Act which allow plaintiffs (The CBD in
    this case) to be compensated by the federal government for their own
    litigation costs. I'm too lazy to look up the exact numbers but the CBD has
    been awarded something like $20 million from the federal government since
    2000. Annually, that is larger than many open space parks departments
    operating budgets. Not a bad payday for a group of maybe 20 attorneys
    (who have the ability to make/force federal government decisions about
    how millions of people use public land).
    DOJ Documents Confirm Center for Biological Diversity Received Millions in Taxpayer Funds from ESA-Related Lawsuits - House Committee on Natural Resources
    Center for Biological Diversity | Wrong Kind of Green | the NGOs & conservation groups that are bargaining away our future

    I don't know if there is a term for ambulance chasers exploiting the
    Endangered Species Act but if there were it would apply to the CBD.
    Eco-fascists comes to my mind. https://www.google.com/search?q=cent...iw=920&bih=705


    2. The study on sedimentation was a paid-for study which came to a
    conclusion that was not peer reviewed nor impartial. It's just a bunch of
    consultants who were paid to say what the CBD wanted them to say. The
    study is not science, it is a biased, paid-for opinion. Reality is the fish and
    motos/people/horses/bikes/mines/pipelines/wagons have coexisted for over
    a century and the population has increased, not decreased.

    There is no urgency, unless of course you are the CBD staff and you need to buy xmas presents.


    3. The Greenback Cutthroat Trout is a non-native species introduced into
    Bear Creek in the late 1800's or possibly early 1900's by someone wishing
    to create fishing tourism surrounding Pikes Peak. It's quite possible that the
    greenback cutthroat outcompeted a native species which is no longer
    found in Bear Creek. In terms of conservation, denying this is pure
    hypocrisy by the CBD and proves their motives lie elsewhere (i.e. making
    money off uncle sam). If the CBD motives were truly conservation oriented
    then they would be calling for the removal of the trout.


    4. The Greenback Cutthroat Trout has already been relocated to fisheries
    and a breeding program has already been begun. Stating that these are
    the last 750 of an isolated population is an outright lie. Colorado has
    already successfully reintroduced what was thought to be the greenback
    once, at which time @ 1997 it became the state fish because of the
    programs success. There is nothing to make anyone think that this cannot
    be done again. It will take time, maybe 20-40 years, but it will be done.


    5. Communism is the belief in Utopia. Socialism is the means of achieving
    the Communists Utopia. Having been married to a Russian for over 10 years
    now this is a lesson I am only now learning, as we are witnessing a Marxist
    takeover first-hand. If you believe that closing public land to the public is
    not about politics and creating a serfdom subserviant to the federal
    government, instead of the other way around, I'm sorry but you are very
    mistaken. I've sat on too many committies and been around too many of
    these people to think otherwise.

    I don't take calling people Marxists lightly, but when my wife and other
    Russians are the ones telling me Obama and his crowd are Marxists then I
    listen carefully. I think you should too. Our future depends on it.

    So what now? Well. You can sit around and like MTB'rs normally do and
    pretend that being nice works, and politics and mountain biking aren't
    related, all the while trails and open space/forests are being closed off
    through the use of conservation easements/buffer zones and other political
    actions, or you can become educated, get involved in advocacy, and start
    electing people who won't put up with this crap. Mountain biking is political
    whether you like it or not. I can promise you that by the time you show up
    at a planning meeting the battle has already been lost in behind the scenes
    closed door meetings with special interests.

  37. #37
    STRAVA!!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    We've covered a lot of this in other threads but here's my 2 cents;

    1. The Center for Biological Diversity CBD is a Meet the Staff small group of
    attorneys based out of San Fransicko who make a living by exploiting
    loopholes in the Endangered Species Act which allow plaintiffs (The CBD in
    this case) to be compensated by the federal government for their own
    litigation costs. I'm too lazy to look up the exact numbers but the CBD has
    been awarded something like $20 million from the federal government since
    2000. Annually, that is larger than many open space parks departments
    operating budgets. Not a bad payday for a group of maybe 20 attorneys
    (who have the ability to make/force federal government decisions about
    how millions of people use public land).
    DOJ Documents Confirm Center for Biological Diversity Received Millions in Taxpayer Funds from ESA-Related Lawsuits - House Committee on Natural Resources
    Center for Biological Diversity | Wrong Kind of Green | the NGOs & conservation groups that are bargaining away our future

    I don't know if there is a term for ambulance chasers exploiting the
    Endangered Species Act but if there were it would apply to the CBD.
    Eco-fascists comes to my mind. https://www.google.com/search?q=cent...iw=920&bih=705


    2. The study on sedimentation was a paid-for study which came to a
    conclusion that was not peer reviewed nor impartial. It's just a bunch of
    consultants who were paid to say what the CBD wanted them to say. The
    study is not science, it is a biased, paid-for opinion. Reality is the fish and
    motos/people/horses/bikes/mines/pipelines/wagons have coexisted for over
    a century and the population has increased, not decreased.

    There is no urgency, unless of course you are the CBD staff and you need to buy xmas presents.


    3. The Greenback Cutthroat Trout is a non-native species introduced into
    Bear Creek in the late 1800's or possibly early 1900's by someone wishing
    to create fishing tourism surrounding Pikes Peak. It's quite possible that the
    greenback cutthroat outcompeted a native species which is no longer
    found in Bear Creek. In terms of conservation, denying this is pure
    hypocrisy by the CBD and proves their motives lie elsewhere (i.e. making
    money off uncle sam). If the CBD motives were truly conservation oriented
    then they would be calling for the removal of the trout.


    4. The Greenback Cutthroat Trout has already been relocated to fisheries
    and a breeding program has already been begun. Stating that these are
    the last 750 of an isolated population is an outright lie. Colorado has
    already successfully reintroduced what was thought to be the greenback
    once, at which time @ 1997 it became the state fish because of the
    programs success. There is nothing to make anyone think that this cannot
    be done again. It will take time, maybe 20-40 years, but it will be done.


    5. Communism is the belief in Utopia. Socialism is the means of achieving
    the Communists Utopia. Having been married to a Russian for over 10 years
    now this is a lesson I am only now learning, as we are witnessing a Marxist
    takeover first-hand. If you believe that closing public land to the public is
    not about politics and creating a serfdom subserviant to the federal
    government, instead of the other way around, I'm sorry but you are very
    mistaken. I've sat on too many committies and been around too many of
    these people to think otherwise.

    I don't take calling people Marxists lightly, but when my wife and other
    Russians are the ones telling me Obama and his crowd are Marxists then I
    listen carefully. I think you should too. Our future depends on it.

    So what now? Well. You can sit around and like MTB'rs normally do and
    pretend that being nice works, and politics and mountain biking aren't
    related, all the while trails and open space/forests are being closed off
    through the use of conservation easements/buffer zones and other political
    actions, or you can become educated, get involved in advocacy, and start
    electing people who won't put up with this crap. Mountain biking is political
    whether you like it or not. I can promise you that by the time you show up
    at a planning meeting the battle has already been lost in behind the scenes
    closed door meetings with special interests.
    AYMEN Brother!!!!!! Shiit, wake up people!!

  38. #38
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    socialism for the rich

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    socialism for the rich
    Since this is already a big sh*t show explain what you mean by your comment. Random comments regarding land grabs by the Fed, impending serfdom and socialism marginalize most posters credibility in my eyes.

    One man's opinion
    all single...all the time

  40. #40
    formerly shabadu
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    The reality is that moto and mtb are forms of recreation. Both fairly expensive forms of recreation. Motos are fun as hell, but they are loud, smelly and do mess up trails. They are forms of recreation that do have impacts. Now we can determine what those impacts are, and figure if or how we can mitigate those impacts...or we can get our one-way ticket punched to Kooktown and start talking about Marxist/socialist conspiracies that also seem to have a little taste of Middle Age Fuedalism thrown in for good measure....somehow.
    The land is still open, you just can't access it on a moto, or god forbid an mtb. If I really felt compelled to access that land, I'd take a hike.
    I love mtn biking, i'd be willing to argue, more than you UT, but at some point i realized that its just one form of recreation. I make my living in the bike biz, but when I looked at that map and saw that the last bits of a species we in that short stretch of water, I was shocked. That's some tough living. It could take one fire or bad drought summer to kill that population, and there are some of us out there who don't feel that our recreation is worth that that. It doesn't make me a Marxist. Those accusations are BS and destroy your credibility, plus I find them personally offensive.
    It was shocking how swiftly this decision occurred, and the thought of motos being closed out of that zone is though to imagine. I realize that it is going to affect people's recreational quality of life. But the discovery of that pure population was suprising as well. Sometimes we all have to pay the piper.
    I for one am excited to experience Cap'n Jacks after a couple of years of moto closure. It'll be interesting to see what happens to it.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    I make my living in the bike biz, but when I looked at that map and saw that the last bits of a species we in that short stretch of water,
    <sigh>
    A breeding program has already been established. There probably are more
    fish in breeding tanks somewhere than all of Bear Creek. Feel better now?

    Besides, you're talking about splitting hairs with chromosomes and amino
    acids. Physically neither you nor I can see the difference between the
    green trout that is in Bear Creek and the green trout stocked throughout
    Colorado. It takes gel electrophoresis to discern the differences, and even
    that is susceptible to errors. This from 2007. "</sigh><sigh>One snag: some fish have tested positive for both species. An investigation is continuing."
    Science is not 100%.

    So which one is the real one?




    That doesn't even begin to touch the inbreeding that has taken place in
    Bear Creek. Genetically pure? What does that even mean. Genetics
    change, even spontaneously. That's what evolution is.


    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    I was shocked. That's some tough living. It could take one fire or bad drought summer to kill that population,
    Don't be such a fear monger.
    Nature is much more resilient than you give it credit for.


    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    It doesn't make me a Marxist. Those accusations are BS and destroy your credibility,
    No one is calling YOU a Marxist because you aren't.
    However, concerning our current leadership the facts speak for themselves
    and many people who have lived in Socialist states agree. I'll trust their
    opinion.

    And don't get too carried away because the Republicans aren't any less of
    big government socialists than the Dems are.

    So what? You've been duped by lying Marxists. Why not suck it up and
    admit you are human and make mistakes? It's never too late to join
    the fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    It was shocking how swiftly this decision occurred, and the thought of motos being closed out of that zone is though to imagine. I realize that it is going to affect people's recreational quality of life. But the discovery of that pure population was suprising as well. Sometimes we all have to pay the piper.
    The fish has been there the whole time. Just because YOU are now finding
    out doesn't make it an emergency that requires rash decisions.


    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    I for one am excited to experience Cap'n Jacks after a couple of years of moto closure. It'll be interesting to see what happens to it.
    If history is any indicator, these areas will be made off-limits to humans in
    the same way that Prebbles Meadow Jumping Mouse habitat, Severy Creek
    and the South Slope was made off-limits to humans.

    I think it's safe to say all of the trails up there will be closed to humans
    before it is all said and done. I expect CS Utilities will lead the effort.
    From what I can tell the USFS/DOW/NPS just follows along since they
    really don't have the resources to do anything but.

    Litigation talks, humans walk.
    </sigh>

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32x18 View Post
    Since this is already a big sh*t show explain what you mean by your comment.
    O. has facilitated a massive transfer of wealth from the middle and lower classes to the ultra-rich. That's not socialism, but the opposite. That's fascism. If he were a socialist, he would be sucking money out of Wall Street and giving it to the public, not sucking money out of the public and giving it to Wall Street. Simple.

    Furthermore, the USSR was far from a Marxist/socialist state, despite the country's title and numerous fancy statues. Finland -- that's socialism.

    Maybe riding 29ers is rotting peoples' brains.

    Quote Originally Posted by 32x18 View Post
    Random comments regarding land grabs by the Fed, impending serfdom and socialism marginalize most posters credibility in my eyes.

    One man's opinion
    I agree there.

  43. #43
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    If one feels so strongly about these "closures," why not exercise the right of civil disobedience?

    Critical mass on the trails; "Whose trails? Our trails!"

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    O. has facilitated a massive transfer of wealth from the middle and lower classes to the ultra-rich. That's not socialism, but the opposite. That's fascism. If he were a socialist, he would be sucking money out of Wall Street and giving it to the public, not sucking money out of the public and giving it to Wall Street. Simple.

    Furthermore, the USSR was far from a Marxist/socialist state, despite the country's title and numerous fancy statues. Finland -- that's socialism.

    Maybe riding 29ers is rotting peoples' brains.
    I thought you were trying to make a UT style comment about the closure not more random political claptrap.
    all single...all the time

  45. #45
    zrm
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    How is the Federal government changing travel management regulations on land already in the federal domain a "land grab"? When a government agency, be it local, state, or federal, seizes private property you could call that a "land grab" (although government agencies do have the constitutional authority to do so with due process and just compensation).

    PS: In my area numerous trails, mostly illegal user created routes that have serious negative environmental impacts, have been closed to motor vehicles but it has not resulted in wholesale closures to non motorized users, including MTB use. The Blue Ribbon Coalition has been selling the whole "If we get banned, you're next" allegory for a long time and the is very little evidence to back it up.

  46. #46
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    I'm glad to know that Obama is a fascist, not a socialist or communist. He's also very black, but that wouldn't have anything to do with what people think of him, right? And be sure to get out there and buy some bullets, cause that's next!

  47. #47
    Almost Human
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    If one feels so strongly about these "closures," why not exercise the right of civil disobedience?

    Critical mass on the trails; "Whose trails? Our trails!"
    What would that solve?

    Why not create/support efforts to close the loopholes in the Environmental
    Protection Act which allows plaintiffs like the CBD to be compensated for
    their legal costs?

  48. #48
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    Well since very few are, I am pulling for these little greenbacks, all ~750 of them. I really dont care if they close this area to Motos, or if the area is closed to all users until the species has recovered, get over it. The recovery of an entire species is more important than your selfish desire to recreate on a handful of miles of trails.
    "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." -- Mark Twain

  49. #49
    I think I can.
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    I just have one comment about race, "Who Cares"? The man is kinda black kinda brown, kinda Muslim. The truth of the matter is he sucks as a leader and is very divisive for our country, at this time I believe our republic is in real jeopardy, especially if he changes the constitution like he wants. As for bullets, the UN will be taking over our gun legislation in hopes of world peace, yeah right.

    Quote Originally Posted by brokefork View Post
    I'm glad to know that Obama is a fascist, not a socialist or communist. He's also very black, but that wouldn't have anything to do with what people think of him, right? And be sure to get out there and buy some bullets, cause that's next!

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzattack View Post
    Well since very few are, I am pulling for these little greenbacks, all ~750 of them. I really dont care if they close this area to Motos, or if the area is closed to all users until the species has recovered, get over it. The recovery of an entire species is more important than your selfish desire to recreate on a handful of miles of trails.
    Recover from what?
    Where is your evidence this population is at risk?
    Do you have Bear Creek Trout population statistics from 1900 to present?

    Since you're so concerned maybe you can tell me which greenback trout is
    the "endangered" one and which one is the "wrong" one stocked throughout Colorado? don't cheat.

    I really want to know how one fish is more important to you than the other and why?



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