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  1. #51
    I think I can.
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    If you look at the EPA you will find they are the most litigious organization in the US currently. They are being used as a tool by our Gov't to extract money and promote fear, I would like to see the EPA dismantled and oversight given back to each individual state.

    A comment about the topic at hand, does it not worry anyone that this decision came down so fast with such swift oversight. In all the years I have been working around the USFS I have never seen any action take less time. UT, it took a threat of civil disobedience and 3 years of fact gathering to finally see action on closing the shooting areas up in the MH area, civil disobedience is how we should approach any future issues, just like the crazy occupy movement. That is how the public expects us to act for it to be recognized.

    Grizz, the fed owns over a 3rd of our public land and restricts usage, at what point is it too much. Its just one area where this fish inhabits, we are not threatening or killing and entire species are we.

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    What would that solve?

    Why not create/support efforts to close the loopholes in the Environmental
    Protection Act which allows plaintiffs like the CBD to be compensated for
    their legal costs?

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  2. #52
    formerly shabadu
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOEMTBR COLORADO View Post
    I just have one comment about race, "Who Cares"? The man is kinda black kinda brown, kinda Muslim. The truth of the matter is he sucks as a leader and is very divisive for our country, at this time I believe our republic is in real jeopardy, especially if he changes the constitution like he wants. As for bullets, the UN will be taking over our gun legislation in hopes of world peace, yeah right.

    As much as I hate to do this....please expand on this 'changing the constitution'. What is it exactly that he wants to change, and how is is "he" going to do it?

    You also missed the 'kinda white' and 'quite Christian' parts of your description of the President.

    These Marxist fishes are stealing our freedomz!

  3. #53
    I think I can.
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    Just type in "does obama like constitution" and read.

    I liked this article as it is more impartial,
    Why the Fuss? Obama Has Long Been On Record In Favor Of Redistribution - Forbes
    Read the third point and ask yourself is limited Gov't good or bad, our founders believed the later.

    As for race there is more racism today than 20 years ago, I had never been called a racist until obama was elected in 08, now is a common talking point. Divide and conquer is how his administration works, no doubt.

    If you believe the Constitution is a living breathing document than you will disagree with me 100% of the time, just fyi
    Last edited by JOEMTBR COLORADO; 11-23-2012 at 11:39 AM.

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  4. #54
    SS Chimp
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOEMTBR COLORADO View Post
    As for bullets, the UN will be taking over our gun legislation in hopes of world peace, yeah right.
    Here comes the UN to take our guns. I wonder if the other forums are as full of fear mongering trolls as the front range forum?

    - Perhaps a petition to secede from the US is in order?
    - Who is the 'Fed'?
    - Who is John Galt?
    - That Forbes link is sweet. I don't even know the context but I can guarantee you that without context the quotes are meaningless.
    - Gotta remember to pack my sidearm for my daily mtb ride

    Bunch of worthless blowhards more interested in jacking their jaw then doing anything to help. This place is really starting to make me sick.
    all single...all the time

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    What would that solve?

    Why not create/support efforts to close the loopholes in the Environmental
    Protection Act which allows plaintiffs like the CBD to be compensated for
    their legal costs?

    Nothing, except for some fine shreddin'.

    Too busy shreddin'.

  6. #56
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    There is a lot of BS floating around this thread. Starting to stink in here. For those that want to get a better grip on the Greenback's past and current restoration efforts and the impacts of the Bear Creek Genetic Study on the future restoration of the species in CO, I found this article to be a great little read. Bring the real Greenbacks-back!

    Redrawing the map on native cutthroats « Colorado Trout Unlimited Colorado Trout Unlimited
    "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." -- Mark Twain

  7. #57
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    I still don't get a couple things:
    - why can't they build wooden bridges across the creek? Granted I haven't done Pipeline in a long time. The only thing I remember is the first creek crossing if you are coming from the east (Jacks parking lot) and going west bound on 667. As you go westward how close and how many times does 667 cross the creek?
    - don't understand why motos are banned from lower Captain Jacks but are not banned on Upper Jacks? Lower Jacks is no where near the creek.

    Chris

  8. #58
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    COLORADO SPRINGS — Federal land managers will ban motorcycles on a popular trail system near Colorado Springs to protect the endangered greenback cutthroat trout.
    The Forest Service will close the trails around Bear Creek in the Pike National Forest to settle a lawsuit filed by the Center for Biological Diversity.
    The suit said erosion from motorcycles damages fish habitat.
    Research, reported last summer, said the Bear Creek greenback cutthroats were the only genetically pure population left. About 750 live in 4 miles of the creek.
    The Center for Biological Diversity praised the decision.
    Don Riggle of the Colorado Trails Preservation Alliance, which advocates for motorcycle-trail access, says motorcycles are being unfairly singled out. He says mountain bikes, horses and hikers cause more damage than motorcycles.


    Read more: Feds ban motorcycles on Bear Creek trails to protect endangered trout - The Denver Post Feds ban motorcycles on Bear Creek trails to protect endangered trout - The Denver Post
    Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: Terms of Use - The Denver Post
    Don Riggle of the Colorado Trails Preservation Alliance, which advocates for motorcycle-trail access, says motorcycles are being unfairly singled out. He says mountain bikes, horses and hikers cause more damage than motorcycles.

    Did MOTOs just throw us under the bus? And with a....lie? JEEZ.....

  9. #59
    ..ouch
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    Don Riggle of the Colorado Trails Preservation Alliance, which advocates for motorcycle-trail access, says motorcycles are being unfairly singled out. He says mountain bikes, horses and hikers cause more damage than motorcycles.

    Did MOTOs just throw us under the bus? And with a....lie? JEEZ.....
    Yeah.. I'm supporting the TPA on this one, but I don't think he did any favors with that comment. Horses, yes. Hikers and mtbs, no.

  10. #60
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    Welcome to Southern California; formerly Colorado.

  11. #61
    I did it all for the kudo
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    Don Riggle of the Colorado Trails Preservation Alliance, which advocates for motorcycle-trail access, says motorcycles are being unfairly singled out. He says mountain bikes, horses and hikers cause more damage than motorcycles.

    Did MOTOs just throw us under the bus? And with a....lie? JEEZ.....
    Yeah, no kidding... The irony is, is that the OP's first post was asking for mtbr's to donate money to these guys. I will say that these guys have apparently done allot of trail work on these trails, but they also do the most damage. All you have to do is go ride Jack's to see the proof is in the pudding...

  12. #62
    Almost Human
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    Fishing in Colorado



    Fishing in Texas.





    So... if Bear Creek was stocked with non-native catfish from Texas instead
    of non-native cutthroat trout from the Western Slope would you still close
    the trail? I think not.

  13. #63
    Almost Human
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    I read it. And also the DOW report, the DP article and a few others.

    I'll summarize.
    IMHO
    This is your endangered species... It's like saying the Johnson family has
    different genes than the Smith family... then sending the Smiths to
    another earth-like planet on the opposite side of the sun... let's call it
    BizarroWorld... where only one Smith is able to survive in a remote cave.

    The Johnson's are the next family sent to BizarroWorld and they survive
    much better than the Smiths. But one day a scientist working on her
    post-doc says "Hey! Forget the Johnson family! I found the last Smith!".

    So then all the smart scientist declare the Smith family an endangered
    species on BizarroWorld and demand a quarantine on the planet
    BizarroWorld until a government funded study of the rare Smith family
    can be completed.

  14. #64
    STRAVA!!!!!!
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    Had a great ride up there today (on November 24th by the way!!??), talked to all kinds of folks, motos, MTBs, hikers, and everyone was on the same page, it just doesn't make sense, was the general consensus!!?? Why so fast, why just motos, why not just reroute the trail?
    We are getting played people and its BS! So many simple solutions and such a rash decision! We all know whats going on here and we all need to stop this crap in its tracks!
    Get involved in any aspect or we all loose!

  15. #65
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    Word is, the last Greenbacks on planet earth are devising a plan similar to the Kramer Blue, this could get ugly.

    If I Go Extinct I Swear I Will Take As Many Humans With Me As I Can | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
    "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." -- Mark Twain

  16. #66
    Grams Light Bikes
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    My .02 worth...

    This issue is about protecting the fish, and they (and their lawyers) are going to do everything in their power to accomplish that. The next step would be to entirely close the trails down (and perhaps High Drive), and not just close it for mountain bikers. No matter if the FS put the moto's in the trail management plan, they did not properly follow the EA on this, and they realized that, and closed the trail to moto's.

    Let's be serious, every user group causes trail damage, period. Of the user groups in this trail section, moto's cause significantly greater damage, followed by horses, and bikers/hikers. I put those last two together, because the damage they create is on par with each other, no matter what the hiker only side feels.

    Let's not go down the tubes of a conspiracy theory or political discourse, none of us have all the information on this situation, and drawing conclusions from hearsay is a waste of time. The FS got caught with their pants down in regards to this situation, and they did exactly what the suit required, closing it down to moto's, They can now do the proper studies in partnership with the DOW, which I doubt will happen since they have very little budget to accomplish that. The CBD uses their litigation powers to accomplish their goals, which in this case was to protect the fish. Whether the erosion studies they came up with are factual is irrelevant, the FS did not follow protocol, plain and simple, and the CBD took advantage of that to shut the trails down to protect the fish.

    The CBD is a passionate and savvy group that has over 200,000 members, 60+ full time staffers and a budget of $7 million (IMBA has 30,000 members). It uses legal action and scientific petitions and the internet in protecting endangered species, and has so far tossed about 600 lawsuits and a slew of petitions at the government. Insert into a blender Earth First types, attorneys, biologists, tree huggers, nature lovers, etc., and you get a powerful, large and somewhat militant environmental group, that has no qualms being controversial.

  17. #67
    STRAVA!!!!!!
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    http://md14.quartz.synacor.com/servi...d=64608&part=2

    WOW! More political games and the plot thickens!!!

  18. #68
    Grams Light Bikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waafoo View Post
    http://md14.quartz.synacor.com/servi...d=64608&part=2

    WOW! More political games and the plot thickens!!!
    Where is that supposed to point?

  19. #69
    ..ouch
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    From COHVCO today:

    "UPDATE OF THE BEAR CREEK LAWSUIT AND TEMPORARY CLOSURE

    This alert is to address the significant interest regarding recent announcements of a “ban” on motorcycle use of the popular trail along Bear Creek outside Colorado Springs. There is more to the story than was unfortunately reported inaccurately by the Colorado Springs Gazette in its story posted online at 8:54 p.m. on November 21. (see Forest Service settles lawsuit, agrees to ban dirt bikes | ban, group, bear - Colorado Springs Gazette, CO). The Gazette story jumped the gun and misstated some key facts.

    First,the story fails to explain the “settlement” is PROPOSED and has not been approved by the Court. In fact, by order issued at 9:36 a.m. on Monday, November 26, the Court DENIED the settlement as presented. The reference in the article to the Forest Service having “10 days to ban the vehicles” fails to note that the 10 days runs from Court approval of the settlement. Obviously that has not yet occurred and wil lnot occur until the USFS and Plaintiff, Center for Biological Diversity address the Court’s concerns.

    Second,the CMTRA, TPA and COHVCO are interveners in this lawsuit. This means several things. We have formal party status in the case, and can provide input to the Court on the settlement. The settlement comes as no surprise and we have been monitoring the negotiations between the USFS and CBD through our counsel, who has decades of experience in dozens of public lands recreation lawsuits and similar situations.

    Third, the story conspicuously omits mention of the fact that in the proposed settlement the Forest Service admits none of CBD’s allegations or claims, and agrees only to “temporary closures” of specified trails on Forest Service land near Bear Creek. The settlement refers to completion of a Forest Service “watershed assessment” which was planned before CBD filed its suit and “consultation” with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service at the outcome of that assessment. A possible outcome(s) following conclusion of these agency activities may include the resumption of motorcycle use on one or more of the trails mentioned in the settlement.

    Fourth,the practical significance of the “ban” cannot be evaluated until the agency assessment is completed. The primary trail of interest, Trail 667, lies deep in a canyon on primarily north-aspect slopes and is effectively closed from at least December through March most years by weather. In other words, no one meaningfully rides 667 during the winter regardless of the settlement. A nonmotorized route, Trail 666, is traveled daily by many users, yet reflects unimproved crossings and sedimentation issues at least as great as those of the motorized route 667 conveniently ignored by CBD. It is at least conceivable that the agency activities required by the settlement might be completed prior to resumption of the 2013 “season” for motorcycle use of Trail 667. We believe the timing and specific language of the settlement agreement reflect awareness of these factors and the relative procedural ease with which the CBD case can be side-stepped by the agencies.

    CMTRA, TPA and COHVCO have been participating in a“roundtable” process at Bear Creek alongside many other groups including nonmotorized recreationists, Trout Unlimited, and the City of Colorado Springs. This roundtable predates the CBD suit and has resulted in numerous improvements to the motorized and nonmotorized trails along Bear Creek and will continue to seek long-term management solutions. We appreciate your awareness of the complete story in forming an opinion about the Bear Creek trails and any support you can provide for the ongoing efforts of the CMTRA, TPA and COHVCO."

  20. #70
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    Wow. Thank you for the update. I have no political commentary, just a thanks to COHVCO for keeping after this.

    Sent from my secret base on 667.

  21. #71
    Your retarded
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    I do not post here much anymore, but wanted to stop-in and say thank you to 32x18 and thump for keeping us updated and staying level-headed through this whole thing. Uncle Trail, I haven't agreed with you much in the past, but you make some points that I feel are frighteningly spot-on. If I remember correctly, you also have a role in The Springs' government regarding trails, parks, and open space. If this is still true, your opinions are probably the most credible of any shared in this thread, which is a little painful to digest because they don't forecast a bright future.

    It is a real shame the motos were target and singled out. They are the only user group who did any real trail maintenance on that entire network and their work was both substantial and well performed. They deserve positive recognition and a real congratulations for their work, not complete removal from the trail system. A reroute from Upper CJs (before it drops to Bear Creek) due west across the top of the ridge and over/around the top of Kineo Mountain would be a satisfactory compromise, but I personally don't see that happening and it is a complete shame.

    I also believe mountain bikers are next in line at the guillotine. The weather has far more impact on the landscape and these trails than all recreational user groups combined and the motos are the only group that has put time into combating this. When they are gone and the trails deteriorate because of heavy rains, we, mountain bikers, will catch the blame from whatever group wants to assign it. This summer, Buckhorn and 666 were in the worst shape that I can remember seeing since I started riding bikes and there are no motos on either of those trails.
    A trail that’s too difficult wouldn’t exist because it’d never be used. But, trails can exist that’re too difficult for you.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by davez26 View Post
    I have no political commentary, just a thanks to COHVCO for keeping after this.
    Ditto. I made a donation to the COHVCO legal fund this week.
    99% of the problems and questions posted here would be answered if people actually walked into a bicycle shop and asked

  23. #73
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    I think Mountain Bikes may be next, there are illegle trestles up at the top of Pipeline. If we cant even respect the trails that we are lucky enough to ride on with out littering up the place. Maybe we will be the next target

  24. #74
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    UPDATE - The temp closure order was signed late last week.

    The only comment from the TPA so far is: “We have very recently received the revised settlement and the Court’s order already approving it. We need to review those documents and determine how best to proceed.”

  25. #75
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by jharness View Post
    I think Mountain Bikes may be next, there are illegle trestles up at the top of Pipeline. If we cant even respect the trails that we are lucky enough to ride on with out littering up the place. Maybe we will be the next target
    If MTB access is threatened by illegal/irresponsible behavior by MTBers, that's a whole different conversation from MTB access is threatened by inherent impacts particular to MTBs on a protected resource.

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