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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waafoo View Post
    Once motos get banned (which they will), word will spread along the front range that Jacks is Moto free MTB use will go up exponentially! Then the tree huger dip shits will target us next saying we are a bigger threat than the motos due to trail "sustainability", chain lube and chamois butter getting in the water! Blaa, Blaa, Blaa. They want the trail closed! Do something, join in with other user groups and keep it open to all or watch it go bye bye.
    Now, lets see thirty koolaid drinking threads about how wrong I am
    There you go! Im not really surprised after seeing this last elections results! Keep it up America, MTBs are next. Four more years, four more years! Yeahhhhh

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waafoo View Post
    There you go! Im not really surprised after seeing this last elections results! Keep it up America, MTBs are next. Four more years, four more years! Yeahhhhh
    You are an idiot
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  3. #28
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    For those that think this decision won't expand to effect mountain biking, you haven't been paying attention. We're next. While we do have more trails to ride, especially compared to motos, access to any and all of them can be taken away before you can say "not fair".

    The legal grey area that multiple governent agencies avoided allowed motos to enjoy a small trail network. This environmental group exploited that flaw and all sides knew that a protracted legal battle would only have one outcome.

    I can't act surprised, but I'm still upset. It is another reminder that we have no say in decisions made that directly impact our quality of life.

    Thank your "elected" government. It is the best that money can buy.

  4. #29
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    What pipeline is closed to motos? That damn obama fella is ruining all my fun. First bush causes katrina and obama closes down pipeline. Whos/ whats next....

    Really people...................Better get a picket line now and start chanting and screaming as you can see it worked well for the moto guys. Post you political crap somewhere else, if you dont like it then move. I hear alaska still has alot of trails open.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post

    Really people...................Better get a picket line now and start chanting and screaming as you can see it worked well for the moto guys. Post you political crap somewhere else, if you dont like it then move. I hear alaska still has alot of trails open.

    Last time I looked, this was a regional mountain bike fourum. This decision will likely expand to include regional mountain bike trails. If you're a huge poster here, it shows (hopefully) that you care about your local trails. They won't be your local trails if they are closed. I'm sure Alaska has great riding, but I live here and hope to enjoy riding all of our trails for years to come.

    The moto folks were better funded and connected to the agencies invloved than mountain bikers, so yes, we all can see how well it worked for them. Do you see it going any better for mountain bikes?

    I hate it when things get political too, because it distracts us from the real issue and reasonable solutions. Unfortunately, things don't stay rational or reasonable for very long when people feel they are being take advantage of.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    What pipeline is closed to motos? That damn obama fella is ruining all my fun. First bush causes katrina and obama closes down pipeline. Whos/ whats next....

    Really people...................Better get a picket line now and start chanting and screaming as you can see it worked well for the moto guys. Post you political crap somewhere else, if you dont like it then move. I hear alaska still has alot of trails open.
    Wow, another shining example! This type of response on here used to surprise me but not anymore.
    This is a forum, its a form of social media, people use it now-a-days to help support and promote their cause. Not sure what your trying to do but maybe you should move to another forum????

  7. #32
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    Quoted from OutthereColorado.com
    "The future of the Bear Creek fish took on a new importance this summer, when research revealed they are the only genetically pure greenback cutthroat trout left anywhere, about 750 living in a 4-mile stretch."
    My feelings are is that if we have a choice of using a trail vs. making a species of fish go extinct... Well then we should close the trail... Do I like it? No. But hey that's life and some things just plain suck...

    I did find some of the other comments coming from the Moto crowd quite comical though.
    "“Why wasn’t the whole thing closed? Because the entire trail system is the problem,” he said. “Now they’re going to let mountain bikes, horses, hikers and others continue to use that trail and cause more damage than motorcycles ever caused.”"

  8. #33
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    [QUOTE=silverlining;9896523.

    Thank your "elected" government. It is the best that money can buy.[/QUOTE]

    This is the "political" statement I was referring to. If we go by that theory please go get rich so you can buy out rights to be on trails................

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waafoo View Post
    Wow, another shining example! This type of response on here used to surprise me but not anymore.
    This is a forum, its a form of social media, people use it now-a-days to help support and promote their cause. Not sure what your trying to do but maybe you should move to another forum????
    Your right this is a mountain biking social media not a ***** about the elections and four more years BS. Clearly you have not shown the ability to notice that and think that your stupid political bs is needed to be added to the conversation. So by wrongly and stupidly interjecting you political views into the wrong social media you have unknowingly done more harm then good for your cause. Coming across as down on American and a doomsdayer does not get people to rally behind you and support your cause.Might have worked for the likes of Manson but not a good way to support your party.Pick your battles. I can tell you exactly what I'm trying to do here. I shall spell it out for you real simple.....

    THIS IS NOT THE SOCIAL MEDIA TO USE TO POST YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS!!

  10. #35
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    This whole issue is about political views, its unavoidable, sorry.

  11. #36
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    We've covered a lot of this in other threads but here's my 2 cents;

    1. The Center for Biological Diversity CBD is a Meet the Staff small group of
    attorneys based out of San Fransicko who make a living by exploiting
    loopholes in the Endangered Species Act which allow plaintiffs (The CBD in
    this case) to be compensated by the federal government for their own
    litigation costs. I'm too lazy to look up the exact numbers but the CBD has
    been awarded something like $20 million from the federal government since
    2000. Annually, that is larger than many open space parks departments
    operating budgets. Not a bad payday for a group of maybe 20 attorneys
    (who have the ability to make/force federal government decisions about
    how millions of people use public land).
    DOJ Documents Confirm Center for Biological Diversity Received Millions in Taxpayer Funds from ESA-Related Lawsuits - House Committee on Natural Resources
    Center for Biological Diversity | Wrong Kind of Green | the NGOs & conservation groups that are bargaining away our future

    I don't know if there is a term for ambulance chasers exploiting the
    Endangered Species Act but if there were it would apply to the CBD.
    Eco-fascists comes to my mind. https://www.google.com/search?q=cent...iw=920&bih=705


    2. The study on sedimentation was a paid-for study which came to a
    conclusion that was not peer reviewed nor impartial. It's just a bunch of
    consultants who were paid to say what the CBD wanted them to say. The
    study is not science, it is a biased, paid-for opinion. Reality is the fish and
    motos/people/horses/bikes/mines/pipelines/wagons have coexisted for over
    a century and the population has increased, not decreased.

    There is no urgency, unless of course you are the CBD staff and you need to buy xmas presents.


    3. The Greenback Cutthroat Trout is a non-native species introduced into
    Bear Creek in the late 1800's or possibly early 1900's by someone wishing
    to create fishing tourism surrounding Pikes Peak. It's quite possible that the
    greenback cutthroat outcompeted a native species which is no longer
    found in Bear Creek. In terms of conservation, denying this is pure
    hypocrisy by the CBD and proves their motives lie elsewhere (i.e. making
    money off uncle sam). If the CBD motives were truly conservation oriented
    then they would be calling for the removal of the trout.


    4. The Greenback Cutthroat Trout has already been relocated to fisheries
    and a breeding program has already been begun. Stating that these are
    the last 750 of an isolated population is an outright lie. Colorado has
    already successfully reintroduced what was thought to be the greenback
    once, at which time @ 1997 it became the state fish because of the
    programs success. There is nothing to make anyone think that this cannot
    be done again. It will take time, maybe 20-40 years, but it will be done.


    5. Communism is the belief in Utopia. Socialism is the means of achieving
    the Communists Utopia. Having been married to a Russian for over 10 years
    now this is a lesson I am only now learning, as we are witnessing a Marxist
    takeover first-hand. If you believe that closing public land to the public is
    not about politics and creating a serfdom subserviant to the federal
    government, instead of the other way around, I'm sorry but you are very
    mistaken. I've sat on too many committies and been around too many of
    these people to think otherwise.

    I don't take calling people Marxists lightly, but when my wife and other
    Russians are the ones telling me Obama and his crowd are Marxists then I
    listen carefully. I think you should too. Our future depends on it.

    So what now? Well. You can sit around and like MTB'rs normally do and
    pretend that being nice works, and politics and mountain biking aren't
    related, all the while trails and open space/forests are being closed off
    through the use of conservation easements/buffer zones and other political
    actions, or you can become educated, get involved in advocacy, and start
    electing people who won't put up with this crap. Mountain biking is political
    whether you like it or not. I can promise you that by the time you show up
    at a planning meeting the battle has already been lost in behind the scenes
    closed door meetings with special interests.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    We've covered a lot of this in other threads but here's my 2 cents;

    1. The Center for Biological Diversity CBD is a Meet the Staff small group of
    attorneys based out of San Fransicko who make a living by exploiting
    loopholes in the Endangered Species Act which allow plaintiffs (The CBD in
    this case) to be compensated by the federal government for their own
    litigation costs. I'm too lazy to look up the exact numbers but the CBD has
    been awarded something like $20 million from the federal government since
    2000. Annually, that is larger than many open space parks departments
    operating budgets. Not a bad payday for a group of maybe 20 attorneys
    (who have the ability to make/force federal government decisions about
    how millions of people use public land).
    DOJ Documents Confirm Center for Biological Diversity Received Millions in Taxpayer Funds from ESA-Related Lawsuits - House Committee on Natural Resources
    Center for Biological Diversity | Wrong Kind of Green | the NGOs & conservation groups that are bargaining away our future

    I don't know if there is a term for ambulance chasers exploiting the
    Endangered Species Act but if there were it would apply to the CBD.
    Eco-fascists comes to my mind. https://www.google.com/search?q=cent...iw=920&bih=705


    2. The study on sedimentation was a paid-for study which came to a
    conclusion that was not peer reviewed nor impartial. It's just a bunch of
    consultants who were paid to say what the CBD wanted them to say. The
    study is not science, it is a biased, paid-for opinion. Reality is the fish and
    motos/people/horses/bikes/mines/pipelines/wagons have coexisted for over
    a century and the population has increased, not decreased.

    There is no urgency, unless of course you are the CBD staff and you need to buy xmas presents.


    3. The Greenback Cutthroat Trout is a non-native species introduced into
    Bear Creek in the late 1800's or possibly early 1900's by someone wishing
    to create fishing tourism surrounding Pikes Peak. It's quite possible that the
    greenback cutthroat outcompeted a native species which is no longer
    found in Bear Creek. In terms of conservation, denying this is pure
    hypocrisy by the CBD and proves their motives lie elsewhere (i.e. making
    money off uncle sam). If the CBD motives were truly conservation oriented
    then they would be calling for the removal of the trout.


    4. The Greenback Cutthroat Trout has already been relocated to fisheries
    and a breeding program has already been begun. Stating that these are
    the last 750 of an isolated population is an outright lie. Colorado has
    already successfully reintroduced what was thought to be the greenback
    once, at which time @ 1997 it became the state fish because of the
    programs success. There is nothing to make anyone think that this cannot
    be done again. It will take time, maybe 20-40 years, but it will be done.


    5. Communism is the belief in Utopia. Socialism is the means of achieving
    the Communists Utopia. Having been married to a Russian for over 10 years
    now this is a lesson I am only now learning, as we are witnessing a Marxist
    takeover first-hand. If you believe that closing public land to the public is
    not about politics and creating a serfdom subserviant to the federal
    government, instead of the other way around, I'm sorry but you are very
    mistaken. I've sat on too many committies and been around too many of
    these people to think otherwise.

    I don't take calling people Marxists lightly, but when my wife and other
    Russians are the ones telling me Obama and his crowd are Marxists then I
    listen carefully. I think you should too. Our future depends on it.

    So what now? Well. You can sit around and like MTB'rs normally do and
    pretend that being nice works, and politics and mountain biking aren't
    related, all the while trails and open space/forests are being closed off
    through the use of conservation easements/buffer zones and other political
    actions, or you can become educated, get involved in advocacy, and start
    electing people who won't put up with this crap. Mountain biking is political
    whether you like it or not. I can promise you that by the time you show up
    at a planning meeting the battle has already been lost in behind the scenes
    closed door meetings with special interests.
    AYMEN Brother!!!!!! Shiit, wake up people!!

  13. #38
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    socialism for the rich

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    socialism for the rich
    Since this is already a big sh*t show explain what you mean by your comment. Random comments regarding land grabs by the Fed, impending serfdom and socialism marginalize most posters credibility in my eyes.

    One man's opinion
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  15. #40
    formerly shabadu
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    The reality is that moto and mtb are forms of recreation. Both fairly expensive forms of recreation. Motos are fun as hell, but they are loud, smelly and do mess up trails. They are forms of recreation that do have impacts. Now we can determine what those impacts are, and figure if or how we can mitigate those impacts...or we can get our one-way ticket punched to Kooktown and start talking about Marxist/socialist conspiracies that also seem to have a little taste of Middle Age Fuedalism thrown in for good measure....somehow.
    The land is still open, you just can't access it on a moto, or god forbid an mtb. If I really felt compelled to access that land, I'd take a hike.
    I love mtn biking, i'd be willing to argue, more than you UT, but at some point i realized that its just one form of recreation. I make my living in the bike biz, but when I looked at that map and saw that the last bits of a species we in that short stretch of water, I was shocked. That's some tough living. It could take one fire or bad drought summer to kill that population, and there are some of us out there who don't feel that our recreation is worth that that. It doesn't make me a Marxist. Those accusations are BS and destroy your credibility, plus I find them personally offensive.
    It was shocking how swiftly this decision occurred, and the thought of motos being closed out of that zone is though to imagine. I realize that it is going to affect people's recreational quality of life. But the discovery of that pure population was suprising as well. Sometimes we all have to pay the piper.
    I for one am excited to experience Cap'n Jacks after a couple of years of moto closure. It'll be interesting to see what happens to it.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    I make my living in the bike biz, but when I looked at that map and saw that the last bits of a species we in that short stretch of water,

    A breeding program has already been established. There probably are more
    fish in breeding tanks somewhere than all of Bear Creek. Feel better now?

    Besides, you're talking about splitting hairs with chromosomes and amino
    acids. Physically neither you nor I can see the difference between the
    green trout that is in Bear Creek and the green trout stocked throughout
    Colorado. It takes gel electrophoresis to discern the differences, and even
    that is susceptible to errors. This from 2007. "
    One snag: some fish have tested positive for both species. An investigation is continuing."
    Science is not 100%.

    So which one is the real one?




    That doesn't even begin to touch the inbreeding that has taken place in
    Bear Creek. Genetically pure? What does that even mean. Genetics
    change, even spontaneously. That's what evolution is.


    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    I was shocked. That's some tough living. It could take one fire or bad drought summer to kill that population,
    Don't be such a fear monger.
    Nature is much more resilient than you give it credit for.


    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    It doesn't make me a Marxist. Those accusations are BS and destroy your credibility,
    No one is calling YOU a Marxist because you aren't.
    However, concerning our current leadership the facts speak for themselves
    and many people who have lived in Socialist states agree. I'll trust their
    opinion.

    And don't get too carried away because the Republicans aren't any less of
    big government socialists than the Dems are.

    So what? You've been duped by lying Marxists. Why not suck it up and
    admit you are human and make mistakes? It's never too late to join
    the fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    It was shocking how swiftly this decision occurred, and the thought of motos being closed out of that zone is though to imagine. I realize that it is going to affect people's recreational quality of life. But the discovery of that pure population was suprising as well. Sometimes we all have to pay the piper.
    The fish has been there the whole time. Just because YOU are now finding
    out doesn't make it an emergency that requires rash decisions.


    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    I for one am excited to experience Cap'n Jacks after a couple of years of moto closure. It'll be interesting to see what happens to it.
    If history is any indicator, these areas will be made off-limits to humans in
    the same way that Prebbles Meadow Jumping Mouse habitat, Severy Creek
    and the South Slope was made off-limits to humans.

    I think it's safe to say all of the trails up there will be closed to humans
    before it is all said and done. I expect CS Utilities will lead the effort.
    From what I can tell the USFS/DOW/NPS just follows along since they
    really don't have the resources to do anything but.

    Litigation talks, humans walk.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32x18 View Post
    Since this is already a big sh*t show explain what you mean by your comment.
    O. has facilitated a massive transfer of wealth from the middle and lower classes to the ultra-rich. That's not socialism, but the opposite. That's fascism. If he were a socialist, he would be sucking money out of Wall Street and giving it to the public, not sucking money out of the public and giving it to Wall Street. Simple.

    Furthermore, the USSR was far from a Marxist/socialist state, despite the country's title and numerous fancy statues. Finland -- that's socialism.

    Maybe riding 29ers is rotting peoples' brains.

    Quote Originally Posted by 32x18 View Post
    Random comments regarding land grabs by the Fed, impending serfdom and socialism marginalize most posters credibility in my eyes.

    One man's opinion
    I agree there.

  18. #43
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    If one feels so strongly about these "closures," why not exercise the right of civil disobedience?

    Critical mass on the trails; "Whose trails? Our trails!"

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    O. has facilitated a massive transfer of wealth from the middle and lower classes to the ultra-rich. That's not socialism, but the opposite. That's fascism. If he were a socialist, he would be sucking money out of Wall Street and giving it to the public, not sucking money out of the public and giving it to Wall Street. Simple.

    Furthermore, the USSR was far from a Marxist/socialist state, despite the country's title and numerous fancy statues. Finland -- that's socialism.

    Maybe riding 29ers is rotting peoples' brains.
    I thought you were trying to make a UT style comment about the closure not more random political claptrap.
    all single...all the time

  20. #45
    zrm
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    How is the Federal government changing travel management regulations on land already in the federal domain a "land grab"? When a government agency, be it local, state, or federal, seizes private property you could call that a "land grab" (although government agencies do have the constitutional authority to do so with due process and just compensation).

    PS: In my area numerous trails, mostly illegal user created routes that have serious negative environmental impacts, have been closed to motor vehicles but it has not resulted in wholesale closures to non motorized users, including MTB use. The Blue Ribbon Coalition has been selling the whole "If we get banned, you're next" allegory for a long time and the is very little evidence to back it up.

  21. #46
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    I'm glad to know that Obama is a fascist, not a socialist or communist. He's also very black, but that wouldn't have anything to do with what people think of him, right? And be sure to get out there and buy some bullets, cause that's next!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    If one feels so strongly about these "closures," why not exercise the right of civil disobedience?

    Critical mass on the trails; "Whose trails? Our trails!"
    What would that solve?

    Why not create/support efforts to close the loopholes in the Environmental
    Protection Act which allows plaintiffs like the CBD to be compensated for
    their legal costs?

  23. #48
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    Well since very few are, I am pulling for these little greenbacks, all ~750 of them. I really dont care if they close this area to Motos, or if the area is closed to all users until the species has recovered, get over it. The recovery of an entire species is more important than your selfish desire to recreate on a handful of miles of trails.
    "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." -- Mark Twain

  24. #49
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    I just have one comment about race, "Who Cares"? The man is kinda black kinda brown, kinda Muslim. The truth of the matter is he sucks as a leader and is very divisive for our country, at this time I believe our republic is in real jeopardy, especially if he changes the constitution like he wants. As for bullets, the UN will be taking over our gun legislation in hopes of world peace, yeah right.

    Quote Originally Posted by brokefork View Post
    I'm glad to know that Obama is a fascist, not a socialist or communist. He's also very black, but that wouldn't have anything to do with what people think of him, right? And be sure to get out there and buy some bullets, cause that's next!

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzattack View Post
    Well since very few are, I am pulling for these little greenbacks, all ~750 of them. I really dont care if they close this area to Motos, or if the area is closed to all users until the species has recovered, get over it. The recovery of an entire species is more important than your selfish desire to recreate on a handful of miles of trails.
    Recover from what?
    Where is your evidence this population is at risk?
    Do you have Bear Creek Trout population statistics from 1900 to present?

    Since you're so concerned maybe you can tell me which greenback trout is
    the "endangered" one and which one is the "wrong" one stocked throughout Colorado? don't cheat.

    I really want to know how one fish is more important to you than the other and why?



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