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  1. #1
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    Jeffco website post on Apex

    Real problems or imagined, they are officially "real".

    http://jeffco.us/openspace/openspace_T56_R157.htm

    Msurk

  2. #2
    Got single track/speed?
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    Probably real. But possibly blown out of proportion.

    I don't ride the trail very often, but it's a nice technical downhill singletrack with limited sightlines. There's lots of potential for hiker/biker conflict. Throw in the shuttle/full-face/full-pad downhill riders and there's going to be a few unpleasant encounters. I'm sure that the XC type riders are responsible for a fair share of the conflicts also. Sometimes it hard to stop when the conditions are a little sketchy.

    All I can say is that most of the hikers that I've yielded to seemed genuinely surprised.

    -Chuck
    Last edited by chuckjoga; 06-01-2009 at 09:09 AM.

  3. #3
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    Real or Imagined, Jeffco is seeking input regarding Apex. If you haven't already done so, please go here http://dev.comba.org/apex_survey.html and complete this survey. The more mountain biker imput that is given, the more we stand to have our voices heard. Just sayin.....
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    The other problem with apex is that it is one of the closest rides from town and you get some real uneducated riders/idiots.

    If i want to spot someone riding without a helmet that would be my first place to look. If i want to get clipped by someone riding downhill while i am climbing up, first place to ride as well.
    Too bad that place is so much fun or i would of stopped riding there a long time ago.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjoga
    Probably real. But possibly blown out of proportion.

    I don't ride the trail very often, but it's a nice technical downhill singletrack with limited sightlines. There's lots of potential for hiker/biker conflict. Throw in the shuttle/full-face/full-pad downhill riders and there's going to be a few unpleasant encounters. I'm sure that the XC type riders are responsible for a fair share of the conflicts also. Sometimes it hard to stop when the conditions are a little sketchy.

    All I can say is that most of the hikers that I've yielded to seemed genuinely surprised.

    -Chuck
    I have to say that I don't ride Apex as much either due to crowds (usually on the weekends). I did have a few interesting experiences at Mt. Falcon though over the weekend. There was a mix of attitudes from bikers coming down while I was climbing. A good majority did yield, while a few blew right past me saying "sorry" as I tried to veer so not to get clobbered. I actually saw one dude with full on knee/shin pads (really?). I also unfortunately came across a couple of the bad apples that are f'ing it up for the rest of us. While descending, these dudes blew past me on a somewhat blind corner. One almost took out a hiker. I had to say something to them in the parking lot and was confronted with so much hostility. One actually had the nutz to say, "you're just mad cause I'm faster than you". I hope to God that these few numnutz don't fack it up for those that practice proper trail etiquette cause if I was a hiker, I sure as hell would complain to Jeffco.

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    [QUOTE=zorro]I actually saw one dude with full on knee/shin pads (really?).QUOTE]

    whats wrong with knee/shin pads???

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=schw8901]
    Quote Originally Posted by zorro
    I actually saw one dude with full on knee/shin pads (really?).QUOTE]

    whats wrong with knee/shin pads???
    Nothing wrong, IMHO. But, it may send the wrong message. I take my elbow and knee/shin pads to Downieville, CA for the ripping long downhills. But it does show the intent to go faster. (or fear, in which case you'll be going slower anyway)

    -Chuck

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjoga
    But it does show the intent to go faster.
    I thought it showed the intent to not get hurt. Most of my worst, most painful crashes were low speed ones.
    A trail that’s too difficult wouldn’t exist because it’d never be used. But, trails can exist that’re too difficult for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    I thought it showed the intent to not get hurt. Most of my worst, most painful crashes were low speed ones.
    I agree, Nickle. I wear them for climbing over technical stuff, since I can guarantee that I WILL fall -- I don't necessarily need them for the doing fast downhill stuff since that isn't normally when I fall. I encourage the chicas to invest in them as well -- it definitely encourages confidence.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    I thought it showed the intent to not get hurt. Most of my worst, most painful crashes were low speed ones.
    I'll give that one to you. I've seen videos of the stuff you ride! Definitely a lot burlier than Apex or Falcon.

    But, anybody doing Apex or Falcon, wearing full pads, doing the tech slower than me kinda sucks, tho......

    My point of view may be a bit narrower since I ride XC. I'm generally trying to go as fast as safely/physically possible. I don't think that hikers have a lot of problems with freeriders sessioning some tech sections of the trail.

    -Chuck
    Last edited by chuckjoga; 06-01-2009 at 12:12 PM.

  11. #11
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    Rather that B**** on the web and to JefCo why don't people take the time to talk to people on the trail and express their disdain and do some educating so rangers don't have to

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjoga
    I'll give that one to you. I've seen videos of the stuff you ride! Definitely a lot burlier than Apex or Falcon.

    But, anybody doing Apex or Falcon, wearing full pads, doing the tech slower than me kinda sucks, tho......

    -Chuck
    hahaha ya true they might suck but certainly cant fault them for protecting themselves while they are sucking... or getting better, one of the two. in zorros original post it seemed he was knocking the person for wearing knee/shin protection due to pre-conceived notions of wearing protection, not for being a bad rider. thats all i really wanted to point out as i believe attitudes like that lead to a little bit of where the conflict is on some of the more heavily used FR trails.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    I thought it showed the intent to not get hurt. Most of my worst, most painful crashes were low speed ones.

    Yeah, I bruised my knee twice in one summer, which meant the whole summer was spent with a sore knee. Now, I always wear knee pads. Since then, pads have kept me out of the hospital on several occasions.
    .




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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCO website
    Single Use Trails:
    Single Use Trails are ones which specify a user group allowed on that trail.
    • A hiker/equestrian only trail
    • A hiker only trail
    A bike only trail
    At least they are considering this....
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 05Willys
    Rather that B**** on the web and to JefCo why don't people take the time to talk to people on the trail and express their disdain and do some educating so rangers don't have to
    The Jeffco rangers have shown lately that they are not there for education, but rather to issue revenue generating tickets to as many trail users (mountain bikers in particular) as possible. Hey, times are tight.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    The Jeffco rangers have shown lately that they are not there for education, but rather to issue revenue generating tickets to as many trail users (mountain bikers in particular) as possible. Hey, times are tight.
    My experience with Ranger/LEOs is that they when conflicts arise, education is the first thing they work on. If that doesn't work they then focus on enforcement, sometimes zero tolerance enforcement. I've never been involved with an area where generating revenue was a motivation for issuing tickets - they simply want people to respect and obey the rules. Some rangers can be more zealous than others in how they enforce those rules and if they're over zealous and unprofessional it should be dealt with, but bringing in money is not - at least in my experience - the motivation.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by schw8901
    hahaha ya true they might suck but certainly cant fault them for protecting themselves while they are sucking... or getting better, one of the two. in zorros original post it seemed he was knocking the person for wearing knee/shin protection due to pre-conceived notions of wearing protection, not for being a bad rider. thats all i really wanted to point out as i believe attitudes like that lead to a little bit of where the conflict is on some of the more heavily used FR trails.
    Yea, I don't mean to knock anyone wearing pads of any sort (protection first kids). I was along the thought that it came across as someone prepared for some fast arsed downhill. I'm also not opposed to that either, but not on a Sunday afternoon where the trail was straight packed. If there is a clear straight away then godspeed, but otherwise it's best to exercise caution and conservatism. There were too many peeps going entirely too fast for blind corners and any part of the trail with obstructed vision (bottom section with tree'd waterbars).

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 05Willys
    Rather that B**** on the web and to JefCo why don't people take the time to talk to people on the trail and express their disdain and do some educating so rangers don't have to
    Amen brother.

  19. #19
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    How can MTBR's joke that a fully kitted DH'r really belongs on Mt. Falcon in the middle of a full capacity crowd on a Saturday in May? I was at Falcon on Saturday and saw these same doods. They weren't just wearing shin pads, it was full-on gladiator gear, big bikes, and multiple shuttle runs. I love to go fast downhill; however, this clearly wasn't the time, place, or method. It was plain stoopid.

    Are people being obtuse, or do they just don't care that someone will get hurt, conflict will be openly invited, and MTB trail use of all types will be threatened? FWIW, it also makes for a crappy DH run.

    Nothing against gravity riding, but I'll say it, this flippant attitude just doesn't make sense. Particularly when as a MTB community, many are working hard to not only foster trail advocacy, but to find and create gravity trails on the front range.

  20. #20
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    I rode at a lift serviced area yesterday (Sundance, UT) and was never treated poorly by the people ripping down as I was climbing. Why? Because I wasn't climbing what they were bombing. Maybe the real answer is nearby downhill park so the DH crowd has a real choice. I don't understand why Jeffco can't make that happen. A course with real big bike terrain and nobody coming up - how could that not almost eliminate the problem?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by moosehead
    How can MTBR's joke that a fully kitted DH'r really belongs on Mt. Falcon in the middle of a full capacity crowd on a Saturday in May? I was at Falcon on Saturday and saw these same doods. They weren't just wearing shin pads, it was full-on gladiator gear, big bikes, and multiple shuttle runs. I love to go fast downhill; however, this clearly wasn't the time, place, or method. It was plain stoopid.

    Are people being obtuse, or do they just don't care that someone will get hurt, conflict will be openly invited, and MTB trail use of all types will be threatened? FWIW, it also makes for a crappy DH run.

    Nothing against gravity riding, but I'll say it, this flippant attitude just doesn't make sense. Particularly when as a MTB community, many are working hard to not only foster trail advocacy, but to find and create gravity trails on the front range.
    Moosehead, dood -- maybe I missed something somewhere, but this is the first I've read that they (the doods descending too fast for conditions) were fully kitted so thank you for that info!

    So, since so many of us are trying to foster trail advocacy -- what is it that we as a mtn biking community can do when we see these types of things happening? I don't believe that full on confrontation is the answer, but is there a way that we can "gently" dissiminate information to week-end warriors and to all those who are seemingly unaware of what is happening (or could happend) to mtb priviledges if we aren't careful? After all, not everyone reads mtbr or is even aware of the political rumblings in Jeffco -- imho, the general John Q Public has no clue that there is so much riding on their behavior as what we all know there is.

    I'm just asking -- I'm curious. AND, I think general discussion can be good if it generates good ideas or gets people thinking in a positive way. Just sayin.....

    I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to start something more grass roots -- with grade/middle schools, high schools, community colleges and somehow make sure that their bike safety classes INCLUDE proper trail etiquette?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro
    I actually saw one dude with full on knee/shin pads (really?).
    Yep. and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Its just another level of safety.

    You ride with a helmet right? (Really?) Why?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueallah
    Maybe the real answer is nearby downhill park so the DH crowd has a real choice. I don't understand why Jeffco can't make that happen. A course with real big bike terrain and nobody coming up - how could that not almost eliminate the problem?
    Wow, so insightful. I could flame the living sh!t out of you, but I won't. Please read through all the history and threads before making a comment like this.

    We have been trying like mad in the past 5 or so years for this exact thing. Jefferson County has heard our plea more than once. We're not idiots here and do agree with you. Unless you pony up $100M pluse bucks and do this your self, you'll have to work the advocacy just like we are.

    ie

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjoga
    Throw in the shuttle/full-face/full-pad downhill riders and there's going to be a few unpleasant encounters. I'm sure that the XC type riders are responsible for a fair share of the conflicts also.
    -Chuck
    BINGO! There is no difference between XC and DH... ALL XCers go Down HILL! What most of you have problems with is Shuttlers, for some reason you can't fathom that someone would be dropped off.

    I have taken a count of conflicts between hikers/bikers and any DH rider (yes, that includes all bikers that go down the hill). I"m up to 56 xc conflicts and 2 Shuttling conflicts out of 98. Wow... you mean that there are a lot of bonehead guys that don't own DH bikes that can create conflict? Yep. More so than Shuttlers.

    I rode with a jeffco volunteer park ranger a few weeks back (on his rigid 29er) at falcon. As we descended (I"m on a 43 lb VPFREE), I could stop on a dime. That fecker couldn't stop to save his life... and darn near took out a hiker. XC f@cks with attitude and heart rate worries are more of a concern.

    Even if we eliminate the parking lots and drop off points, we'll still have just as much conflict. Even Schnausers can't yeild for people (as shown in his video), and he pedaled to the top of Bergen Peak.

  25. #25
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    on another note, I followed two very dedicated xc guys (my friends) down the hill. A ranger busted their a$$ for not yeilding... like 8 times.

    Bwaaa haa haa haa!

  26. #26
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    YG, sorry for the outburst, but sticking with the objection. I'm all for positivity, but that wasn't going to work in this case of overt defiance. As was mentioned above, we need to help ourselves by policing ourselves. There was an all-girl MTB group on Falcon this past Saturday as well, not sure of it was Dirt Divas? They must have seen this stuff, no?

    As has been said, and practiced at many other DH-oriented trail systems, a one-way protocol makes the most long-term sense for DH. Sure, it's not always practical or possible, but it may not be available at all if a few boneheads blow it - doesn't matter whether they are XC, DH, niners, fixies, trials, or unicycles.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetigirl
    Moosehead, dood -- maybe I missed something somewhere, but this is the first I've read that they (the doods descending too fast for conditions) were fully kitted so thank you for that info!

    So, since so many of us are trying to foster trail advocacy -- what is it that we as a mtn biking community can do when we see these types of things happening? I don't believe that full on confrontation is the answer, but is there a way that we can "gently" dissiminate information to week-end warriors and to all those who are seemingly unaware of what is happening (or could happend) to mtb priviledges if we aren't careful? After all, not everyone reads mtbr or is even aware of the political rumblings in Jeffco -- imho, the general John Q Public has no clue that there is so much riding on their behavior as what we all know there is.

    I'm just asking -- I'm curious. AND, I think general discussion can be good if it generates good ideas or gets people thinking in a positive way. Just sayin.....

    I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to start something more grass roots -- with grade/middle schools, high schools, community colleges and somehow make sure that their bike safety classes INCLUDE proper trail etiquette?
    Yetigirl makes a very good point. Most people that aren't in the know have absolutely no clue as to the situation with Jeffco. and mtb'ers. Trying to explain that going fast could possibly lead to less trails available to us as a whole seems reasonable and logical. Or maybe tell them that there are a crap load of rangers all around giving out tix. If reason and logic doesn't work, then a hit to the pocketbook might.

    PS - I do want to reiterate that there were a lot of beautiful people riding at Falcon with smiles on their faces and encouriging each other on the climb, just having fun. I love that about our community. I try to focus on that rather than the other few.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    Wow, so insightful. I could flame the living sh!t out of you, but I won't. Please read through all the history and threads before making a comment like this.

    ie
    I hope you don't take that kind of snotty attitude toward the folks you're trying to influence through advocacy.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    The Jeffco rangers have shown lately that they are not there for education, but rather to issue revenue generating tickets to as many trail users (mountain bikers in particular) as possible. Hey, times are tight.
    Hey, I've got no problem with them giving tickets to irresponsible riders. Society needs law enforcement to control the 5% of the population that is too stupid for their own good and screw it up for everybody else. If you don't want a ticket, ride responsibly. Not that complicated really.

    I do agree that it is a revenue generator but I'm happy having the yahoos pay the bills via tickets while I ride for free.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    BINGO! There is no difference between XC and DH... ALL XCers go Down HILL! What most of you have problems with is Shuttlers, for some reason you can't fathom that someone would be dropped off.

    I have taken a count of conflicts between hikers/bikers and any DH rider (yes, that includes all bikers that go down the hill). I"m up to 56 xc conflicts and 2 Shuttling conflicts out of 98. Wow... you mean that there are a lot of bonehead guys that don't own DH bikes that can create conflict? Yep. More so than Shuttlers.

    I rode with a jeffco volunteer park ranger a few weeks back (on his rigid 29er) at falcon. As we descended (I"m on a 43 lb VPFREE), I could stop on a dime. That fecker couldn't stop to save his life... and darn near took out a hiker. XC f@cks with attitude and heart rate worries are more of a concern.

    Even if we eliminate the parking lots and drop off points, we'll still have just as much conflict. Even Schnausers can't yeild for people (as shown in his video), and he pedaled to the top of Bergen Peak.
    I could give a rat's arse what you categorize someone who is descending, just be mindful of those around you. No attitude, no holyer than thou, just don't want anyone getting hurt or coming away from their day hiking/running/riding horse thinking, "damn those mtn. bikers are gonna kill somebody". Anyone using gravity to go downhill (just like in skiing/snowboarding) should be in control at all times. One would think that should go without saying.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thought Criminal 9
    Hey, I've got no problem with them giving tickets to irresponsible riders. Society needs law enforcement to control the 5% of the population that is too stupid for their own good and screw it up for everybody else. If you don't want a ticket, ride responsibly. Not that complicated really.

    I do agree that it is a revenue generator but I'm happy having the yahoos pay the bills via tickets while I ride for free.
    I ride responsibly. I got a ticket. The court sided with me. What does that tell you?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetigirl
    So, since so many of us are trying to foster trail advocacy -- what is it that we as a mtn biking community can do when we see these types of things happening? I don't believe that full on confrontation is the answer, but is there a way that we can "gently" dissiminate information....?
    This is a great conversation to have. And continue.

    Personally, I thank the courteous riders constantly. And on the occasions when I do run into a bonehead, I usually say, clearly and simply, "Very uncool dude ..." That's usually met with them acting like they didn't hear me (classic...), and continuing on their merry boneheaded way. But, they got the message. And if they got it more often, it would help. Peer pressure works.

    From my perspective, the greatest potential for conflict happens at the hands of NEW riders (who can't yet control their bikes well) and YOUNGER riders who are, well, just young, and as such have a tendency to think their trail experience is more important than anyone else's. Anyone who brings that kind of attitude into the park -- on bike, foot, or horse -- are problem guests that disourage positive experiences for all.

    But what I have also noticed is that the percentage of younger shuttlers is higher than the overall mtb population. Ever noticed you see very few teenage-ish riders climbing a trail?! You sure do see them shuttling it though ... and if you run across them when you're climbing, you're gonna see them about 3 more times before you get to the top .... The topic of etiquette aside, shuttling exaggerates trail traffic; and in the case of Mt. Falcon and Apex, on already short sections of trail. It's just a fact.

    >>>>> We need more trail. <<<<<<<

    IE, keep in mind, as a person who descends more often than you climb, it is not surprising that your perspective looks different from others who climb much more than you do. People who climb often run across more downhillers (shuttling or not) than you do as a person who climbs less often. Please don't discount their experiences.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    This is a great conversation to have. And continue.

    From my perspective, the greatest potential for conflict happens at the hands of NEW riders (who can't yet control their bikes well) and YOUNGER riders who are, well, just young, and as such have a tendency to think their trail experience is more important than anyone else's. Anyone who brings that kind of attitude into the park -- on bike, foot, or horse -- are problem guests that disourage positive experiences for all.

    But what I have also noticed is that the percentage of younger shuttlers is higher than the overall mtb population. Ever noticed you see very few teenage-ish riders climbing a trail?! You sure do see them shuttling it though ... and if you run across them when you're climbing, you're gonna see them about 3 more times before you get to the top .... The topic of etiquette aside, shuttling exaggerates trail traffic; and in the case of Mt. Falcon and Apex, on already short sections of trail. It's just a fact.

    >>>>> We need more trail. <<<<<<<
    Exactly what I have noticed! Hence, my comment about getting the information out to kids who are in grade/middle schools, high schools, community colleges, etc. I know for a fact that many of the schools will contact a local bike shop to conduct an informational bike safety day that the schools have usually every spring. Purpose: to inform kids (and their parents) about bike safety and products available at the bike shops (lights, helmets, clothing, etc). It would be awesome if the bike shops also promoted proper trail etiquette at these events (maybe more for the parents, who would be listening, but still....) or, if middle school/high schools incorporated this into their phys ed classes and/or mtb clubs (if there are such things?)

    I usually always have conversations with the teenage DHers about their bikes and/or my bike (which they really like) and typically I'll drop a comment about yielding to uphill climbers/hikers, etc as they take off (which they will smile and nod at -- not necessarily listen to however, since I am an adult!!)
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    I ride responsibly. I got a ticket. The court sided with me. What does that tell you?
    You got your day in court and the system works?
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  35. #35
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    While this discussion is good, it isn't particularly new. What is new is Jeffco asking for feedback. They are clearly making plans to evaluate and potentially change management options at the park. This could have a significant impact on those of us who ride at Apex. Positive or negative.

    Please take the time to give Jefferson County some thoughtful, polite feedback on the options they are listing as potential management solutions. And as mentioned many times previously, provide your thoughts to COMBA via the questionaire as well.

    This is important stuff folks!

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    I do find it interesting that the rangers are busting people for saying " on your left" when passing as they have determined this to be a command and a violation of the yield rules. I guess I am ok with that, but it is just trail etiquette like yield to uphill riders. There are no signs that say that one rider has to yield to another, just to hikers and equestrians. If we want to start training people we need to first start with the basics. Somehow a new crop of riders has come out that shuttle and have never been blown off a technical climb by an uneducated downhiller, so rather than stick tot he old ways of learning when to yield, it may be time to post it. Downhillers yield to any and everyone unless it is a downhill trail.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettf
    While this discussion is good, it isn't particularly new. What is new is Jeffco asking for feedback. They are clearly making plans to evaluate and potentially change management options at the park. This could have a significant impact on those of us who ride at Apex. Positive or negative.

    Please take the time to give Jefferson County some thoughtful, polite feedback on the options they are listing as potential management solutions. And as mentioned many times previously, provide your thoughts to COMBA via the questionaire as well.

    This is important stuff folks!
    Here's the link, folks! http://dev.comba.org/apex_survey.html

    Brett's right -- PLEASE take the time to give Jeffco some good quality thoughtful polite feedback! It goes a long way.....
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    You got your day in court and the system works?
    Correct. After 3 court dates, time off work, time away from the family, we were found not guilty. What my point was to mr. thoughtcriminal was that if he thinks he's above getting a ticket because of the way he rides, he might be in for a big surprise.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    You got your day in court and the system works?
    Yes, we should all be so lucky as to spend our riding time proving ourselves innocent.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro
    I could give a rat's arse what you categorize someone who is descending, just be mindful of those around you. No attitude, no holyer than thou, just don't want anyone getting hurt or coming away from their day hiking/running/riding horse thinking, "damn those mtn. bikers are gonna kill somebody". Anyone using gravity to go downhill (just like in skiing/snowboarding) should be in control at all times. One would think that should go without saying.
    is it you zrm?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro
    I could give a rat's arse what you categorize someone who is descending, just be mindful of those around you. No attitude, no holyer than thou, just don't want anyone getting hurt or coming away from their day hiking/running/riding horse thinking, "damn those mtn. bikers are gonna kill somebody". Anyone using gravity to go downhill (just like in skiing/snowboarding) should be in control at all times. One would think that should go without saying.
    So what exactly does all of what you just ranted have to do with what IE said?
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  42. #42
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    I'm glad we're having this discussion. I, for one, have decided to become a volunteer mtbr patroller with Jeffco. I'm hoping that having an official role with open space will make it more practical for me to engage in education efforts on the trails.

    The riders who pose the greatest threat to our riding privileges are unlikely to be reading mtbr.com, but we need to reach them some how. Perhaps we can solidify rider trail etiquette with Jeffco using IMBA guidelines as a starting point. Then document these rules in brochure form and give the brochures out at trail heads throughout the season. Perhaps COMBA can play a role in this. Judging from my own contentious interactions with uninformed riders, we need some significant educational efforts.

    Msurk

  43. #43
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    Why is is that bikers always get the bad rap here when it comes to these trail "conflicts?" Seriously, bikers are always thought of as the cause. I challenge that.

    I think that the hikers also might need some education too here. I went for an out-and-back TRAIL RUN up Apex this afternoon and almost had two collisions with HIKERS who were just plain clueless - not wearing headphones, just plain oblivious to their surroundings. Even asking, "Can I sneak by you on your left?" as I approached loudly from behind prompted them to look over their left shoulder and move left - just about right into me.

    I think we need to propose new, simpler rules. We can still keep the "slow down, communicate, and pass safely" concept, but change those stupid triangle signs to read "slower trail users shall move to the right and yeild to faster trail users." Isn't that what's ultimately going to happen anyway?

    And why is is that equestrians can do no wrong on multi-use trails anyway? Maybe I should get a horse and bomb down the trail - wearing armor and a full face helmet. I won't have to yield to anyone, ever.

  44. #44
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    Challenging the idea the mountain bikers are always the problem here on a mtbr site accomplishes little. To all you who want to challenge the perception that mountain bikers are always the problem, you need to get involved in the non-cyber world with real hikers and bikers. Get involved with open space, get involved with trail maintenance, get involved with COMBA, get involved with the politics. It is essential.

    In my training for Jeffco Open Space Mountain Bike Patrolling I've begun a dialogue with hiker Jeffco Patrollers. Believe me, I assure you, the perception throughout Open Space is that Mountain Bikers are a major issue; a major issue to park enjoyment. We could very easily be banned from parks. It would likely begin with hiker only parks and graduate to a full ban. I'm not fear mongering. I'm just conveying to you, the perception I see within Jeffco Open Space. To challenge this we need serious education on the part of mountain bikers to educate our fellow mountain bikers. Riders don't listen to hikers' education efforts. The main issue is down hill riders going to fast and failing to yield or slow down in the presence of up hill traffic.

    The fact that even with alternative use days at The Cone, there is still just as many mountain biker on mountain biker conflict re-enforces the perception that mountain bikers are getting worse and perception is everything.

    You want to challenge this perception? You must get involved and educate your fellow riders. Those riders needing education are unlikely to be on mtbr.com. Visiting this website and preaching to the choir is not enough. Period. Get involved in the real world. Riding the trails is a privilege which can easily be taken away. Thinking a ban could never happen because other riders involved with the political process will prevent it is lazy and fool hardy. We need all hands on deck and involvement on several levels. Hikers are powerful politically.

    Msurk

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by enduroslrider
    I think that the hikers also might need some education too here. I went for an out-and-back TRAIL RUN up Apex this afternoon and almost had two collisions with HIKERS who were just plain clueless - not wearing headphones, just plain oblivious to their surroundings. Even asking, "Can I sneak by you on your left?" as I approached loudly from behind prompted them to look over their left shoulder and move left - just about right into me.
    JCOS' current rules encourage this kind of oblivious and unsafe behavior from park users, by making mountain bikers solely responsible for all passing interactions. We need to get to a place where all users EXPECT and RESPECT each other, and encourage free and courteous movement inside of parks. Everyone will benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by enduroslrider
    I think we need to propose new, simpler rules. We can still keep the "slow down, communicate, and pass safely" concept, but change those stupid triangle signs to read "slower trail users shall move to the right and yeild to faster trail users." Isn't that what's ultimately going to happen anyway?
    Hopefully, if policy encourages reasonable people to work cooperatively in parks.

    As an FYI ... COMBA is working with JCOS on this matter. See attached letter for full details. We are encouraged and grateful that Open Space is now in the process of seeking public comment on revised yielding regulations .... expected later this year.

    Stay tuned -- and as msurk said: get involved!

    (Having trouble viewing? Try right-clicking the .pdf, then save the target to your desktop).
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by TVC15; 06-07-2009 at 05:17 PM.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    COMBA is working with JCOS on this matter. See attached letter for full details. We are encouraged and grateful that Open Space is now in the process of seeking public comment on revised yielding regulations .... expected later this year.
    Thanks, TCV15. That is an excellent letter written by Michelle. Let's hope it drives the facts home! See you all at the JCOS Open House on 6/18! Let's have a big turnout.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by msurk
    It would likely begin with hiker only parks and graduate to a full ban. Msurk
    Just to clarify - There are already JCOS hiker-only parks, e.g., Mt. Galbraith, and hiker only trails on Lookout and at Mt. Falcon. There are no JCOS biker-only parks or trails though - that I'm aware of anyway.

    I'm not trying to say anything with that, I'm merely just stating the facts.

    I agree that getting involved - and staying involved - is key. Even when the "hotness" of this issues seems to die down.

    See you all at the JCOS Open House on the 18th!

  48. #48
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    Revising the yield rules will be a big plus. It is not reasonable for mtbrs to be the sole group to officially yield. However, I'd say if you slow down to walking speed on descents a reasonable distance before encountering hikers and engage the hikers in friendly conversation as you slowly pass, you will be following the spirit of trail etiquette. Hikers will almost always appreciate this and step aside, often with a smile. I actually passed volunteer patrollers like this and it was ok.

    But that sting operation at LoTB would say otherwise. We need to talk about that sting operation with JCOS. I could be wrong, but I believe none of the full time JCOS rangers mountain bike. So while riders were likely following the spirit of the rules, they still got ticketed. That just aggravates riders. Several volunteer mtbr patrollers aren't happy about that sting operation.

    Msurk

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by msurk
    Revising the yield rules will be a big plus. It is not reasonable for mtbrs to be the sole group to officially yield. However, I'd say if you slow down to walking speed on descents a reasonable distance before encountering hikers and engage the hikers in friendly conversation as you slowly pass, you will be following the spirit of trail etiquette. Hikers will almost always appreciate this and step aside, often with a smile. I actually passed volunteer patrollers like this and it was ok.
    Couldn't agree more!!

    But that sting operation at LoTB would say otherwise. We need to talk about that sting operation with JCOS. I could be wrong, but I believe none of the full time JCOS rangers mountain bike. So while riders were likely following the spirit of the rules, they still got ticketed. That just aggravates riders. Several volunteer mtbr patrollers aren't happy about that sting operation.
    Agreed, and good to know.

    A big THANK YOU to you, for your service to Open Space, and our community.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by enduroslrider
    Just to clarify - There are already JCOS hiker-only parks, e.g., Mt. Galbraith, and hiker only trails on Lookout and at Mt. Falcon. There are no JCOS biker-only parks or trails though - that I'm aware of anyway.
    I should have been more clear. What I meant was that if we start seeing parks which were previously open to mountain bikers implementing a mountain bike ban, that would likely signal the beginning of a bad trend. Parks which were never open to mountain bikers isn't necessarily concerning because hikers pre-date mountain bikers and trail design may not be conducive to riding.

    Check this out on yielding:

    http://www.americantrails.org/resour...ocSelfPro.html

    This I did not know....

    "NOTE: Spokesmen for the Colorado Horsemen's Council report that it is also important to know that a bow tied in a horse's tail means that he likes to kick."

    Msurk

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