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  1. #1
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    Jeffco website post on Apex

    Real problems or imagined, they are officially "real".

    http://jeffco.us/openspace/openspace_T56_R157.htm

    Msurk

  2. #2
    Got single track/speed?
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    Probably real. But possibly blown out of proportion.

    I don't ride the trail very often, but it's a nice technical downhill singletrack with limited sightlines. There's lots of potential for hiker/biker conflict. Throw in the shuttle/full-face/full-pad downhill riders and there's going to be a few unpleasant encounters. I'm sure that the XC type riders are responsible for a fair share of the conflicts also. Sometimes it hard to stop when the conditions are a little sketchy.

    All I can say is that most of the hikers that I've yielded to seemed genuinely surprised.

    -Chuck
    Last edited by chuckjoga; 06-01-2009 at 09:09 AM.

  3. #3
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    Real or Imagined, Jeffco is seeking input regarding Apex. If you haven't already done so, please go here http://dev.comba.org/apex_survey.html and complete this survey. The more mountain biker imput that is given, the more we stand to have our voices heard. Just sayin.....
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  4. #4
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    The other problem with apex is that it is one of the closest rides from town and you get some real uneducated riders/idiots.

    If i want to spot someone riding without a helmet that would be my first place to look. If i want to get clipped by someone riding downhill while i am climbing up, first place to ride as well.
    Too bad that place is so much fun or i would of stopped riding there a long time ago.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjoga
    Probably real. But possibly blown out of proportion.

    I don't ride the trail very often, but it's a nice technical downhill singletrack with limited sightlines. There's lots of potential for hiker/biker conflict. Throw in the shuttle/full-face/full-pad downhill riders and there's going to be a few unpleasant encounters. I'm sure that the XC type riders are responsible for a fair share of the conflicts also. Sometimes it hard to stop when the conditions are a little sketchy.

    All I can say is that most of the hikers that I've yielded to seemed genuinely surprised.

    -Chuck
    I have to say that I don't ride Apex as much either due to crowds (usually on the weekends). I did have a few interesting experiences at Mt. Falcon though over the weekend. There was a mix of attitudes from bikers coming down while I was climbing. A good majority did yield, while a few blew right past me saying "sorry" as I tried to veer so not to get clobbered. I actually saw one dude with full on knee/shin pads (really?). I also unfortunately came across a couple of the bad apples that are f'ing it up for the rest of us. While descending, these dudes blew past me on a somewhat blind corner. One almost took out a hiker. I had to say something to them in the parking lot and was confronted with so much hostility. One actually had the nutz to say, "you're just mad cause I'm faster than you". I hope to God that these few numnutz don't fack it up for those that practice proper trail etiquette cause if I was a hiker, I sure as hell would complain to Jeffco.

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    [QUOTE=zorro]I actually saw one dude with full on knee/shin pads (really?).QUOTE]

    whats wrong with knee/shin pads???

  7. #7
    Got single track/speed?
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    [QUOTE=schw8901]
    Quote Originally Posted by zorro
    I actually saw one dude with full on knee/shin pads (really?).QUOTE]

    whats wrong with knee/shin pads???
    Nothing wrong, IMHO. But, it may send the wrong message. I take my elbow and knee/shin pads to Downieville, CA for the ripping long downhills. But it does show the intent to go faster. (or fear, in which case you'll be going slower anyway)

    -Chuck

  8. #8
    Your retarded
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjoga
    But it does show the intent to go faster.
    I thought it showed the intent to not get hurt. Most of my worst, most painful crashes were low speed ones.
    A trail that’s too difficult wouldn’t exist because it’d never be used. But, trails can exist that’re too difficult for you.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    I thought it showed the intent to not get hurt. Most of my worst, most painful crashes were low speed ones.
    I agree, Nickle. I wear them for climbing over technical stuff, since I can guarantee that I WILL fall -- I don't necessarily need them for the doing fast downhill stuff since that isn't normally when I fall. I encourage the chicas to invest in them as well -- it definitely encourages confidence.
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  10. #10
    Got single track/speed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    I thought it showed the intent to not get hurt. Most of my worst, most painful crashes were low speed ones.
    I'll give that one to you. I've seen videos of the stuff you ride! Definitely a lot burlier than Apex or Falcon.

    But, anybody doing Apex or Falcon, wearing full pads, doing the tech slower than me kinda sucks, tho......

    My point of view may be a bit narrower since I ride XC. I'm generally trying to go as fast as safely/physically possible. I don't think that hikers have a lot of problems with freeriders sessioning some tech sections of the trail.

    -Chuck
    Last edited by chuckjoga; 06-01-2009 at 12:12 PM.

  11. #11
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    Rather that B**** on the web and to JefCo why don't people take the time to talk to people on the trail and express their disdain and do some educating so rangers don't have to

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjoga
    I'll give that one to you. I've seen videos of the stuff you ride! Definitely a lot burlier than Apex or Falcon.

    But, anybody doing Apex or Falcon, wearing full pads, doing the tech slower than me kinda sucks, tho......

    -Chuck
    hahaha ya true they might suck but certainly cant fault them for protecting themselves while they are sucking... or getting better, one of the two. in zorros original post it seemed he was knocking the person for wearing knee/shin protection due to pre-conceived notions of wearing protection, not for being a bad rider. thats all i really wanted to point out as i believe attitudes like that lead to a little bit of where the conflict is on some of the more heavily used FR trails.

  13. #13
    Oh, So Interesting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    I thought it showed the intent to not get hurt. Most of my worst, most painful crashes were low speed ones.

    Yeah, I bruised my knee twice in one summer, which meant the whole summer was spent with a sore knee. Now, I always wear knee pads. Since then, pads have kept me out of the hospital on several occasions.
    .




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  14. #14
    friend of Apex
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCO website
    Single Use Trails:
    Single Use Trails are ones which specify a user group allowed on that trail.
    • A hiker/equestrian only trail
    • A hiker only trail
    [SIZE="5"]A bike only trail [/SIZE]
    At least they are considering this....
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 05Willys
    Rather that B**** on the web and to JefCo why don't people take the time to talk to people on the trail and express their disdain and do some educating so rangers don't have to
    The Jeffco rangers have shown lately that they are not there for education, but rather to issue revenue generating tickets to as many trail users (mountain bikers in particular) as possible. Hey, times are tight.

  16. #16
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    The Jeffco rangers have shown lately that they are not there for education, but rather to issue revenue generating tickets to as many trail users (mountain bikers in particular) as possible. Hey, times are tight.
    My experience with Ranger/LEOs is that they when conflicts arise, education is the first thing they work on. If that doesn't work they then focus on enforcement, sometimes zero tolerance enforcement. I've never been involved with an area where generating revenue was a motivation for issuing tickets - they simply want people to respect and obey the rules. Some rangers can be more zealous than others in how they enforce those rules and if they're over zealous and unprofessional it should be dealt with, but bringing in money is not - at least in my experience - the motivation.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by schw8901
    hahaha ya true they might suck but certainly cant fault them for protecting themselves while they are sucking... or getting better, one of the two. in zorros original post it seemed he was knocking the person for wearing knee/shin protection due to pre-conceived notions of wearing protection, not for being a bad rider. thats all i really wanted to point out as i believe attitudes like that lead to a little bit of where the conflict is on some of the more heavily used FR trails.
    Yea, I don't mean to knock anyone wearing pads of any sort (protection first kids). I was along the thought that it came across as someone prepared for some fast arsed downhill. I'm also not opposed to that either, but not on a Sunday afternoon where the trail was straight packed. If there is a clear straight away then godspeed, but otherwise it's best to exercise caution and conservatism. There were too many peeps going entirely too fast for blind corners and any part of the trail with obstructed vision (bottom section with tree'd waterbars).

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 05Willys
    Rather that B**** on the web and to JefCo why don't people take the time to talk to people on the trail and express their disdain and do some educating so rangers don't have to
    Amen brother.

  19. #19
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    How can MTBR's joke that a fully kitted DH'r really belongs on Mt. Falcon in the middle of a full capacity crowd on a Saturday in May? I was at Falcon on Saturday and saw these same doods. They weren't just wearing shin pads, it was full-on gladiator gear, big bikes, and multiple shuttle runs. I love to go fast downhill; however, this clearly wasn't the time, place, or method. It was plain stoopid.

    Are people being obtuse, or do they just don't care that someone will get hurt, conflict will be openly invited, and MTB trail use of all types will be threatened? FWIW, it also makes for a crappy DH run.

    Nothing against gravity riding, but I'll say it, this flippant attitude just doesn't make sense. Particularly when as a MTB community, many are working hard to not only foster trail advocacy, but to find and create gravity trails on the front range.

  20. #20
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    I rode at a lift serviced area yesterday (Sundance, UT) and was never treated poorly by the people ripping down as I was climbing. Why? Because I wasn't climbing what they were bombing. Maybe the real answer is nearby downhill park so the DH crowd has a real choice. I don't understand why Jeffco can't make that happen. A course with real big bike terrain and nobody coming up - how could that not almost eliminate the problem?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by moosehead
    How can MTBR's joke that a fully kitted DH'r really belongs on Mt. Falcon in the middle of a full capacity crowd on a Saturday in May? I was at Falcon on Saturday and saw these same doods. They weren't just wearing shin pads, it was full-on gladiator gear, big bikes, and multiple shuttle runs. I love to go fast downhill; however, this clearly wasn't the time, place, or method. It was plain stoopid.

    Are people being obtuse, or do they just don't care that someone will get hurt, conflict will be openly invited, and MTB trail use of all types will be threatened? FWIW, it also makes for a crappy DH run.

    Nothing against gravity riding, but I'll say it, this flippant attitude just doesn't make sense. Particularly when as a MTB community, many are working hard to not only foster trail advocacy, but to find and create gravity trails on the front range.
    Moosehead, dood -- maybe I missed something somewhere, but this is the first I've read that they (the doods descending too fast for conditions) were fully kitted so thank you for that info!

    So, since so many of us are trying to foster trail advocacy -- what is it that we as a mtn biking community can do when we see these types of things happening? I don't believe that full on confrontation is the answer, but is there a way that we can "gently" dissiminate information to week-end warriors and to all those who are seemingly unaware of what is happening (or could happend) to mtb priviledges if we aren't careful? After all, not everyone reads mtbr or is even aware of the political rumblings in Jeffco -- imho, the general John Q Public has no clue that there is so much riding on their behavior as what we all know there is.

    I'm just asking -- I'm curious. AND, I think general discussion can be good if it generates good ideas or gets people thinking in a positive way. Just sayin.....

    I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to start something more grass roots -- with grade/middle schools, high schools, community colleges and somehow make sure that their bike safety classes INCLUDE proper trail etiquette?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro
    I actually saw one dude with full on knee/shin pads (really?).
    Yep. and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Its just another level of safety.

    You ride with a helmet right? (Really?) Why?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueallah
    Maybe the real answer is nearby downhill park so the DH crowd has a real choice. I don't understand why Jeffco can't make that happen. A course with real big bike terrain and nobody coming up - how could that not almost eliminate the problem?
    Wow, so insightful. I could flame the living sh!t out of you, but I won't. Please read through all the history and threads before making a comment like this.

    We have been trying like mad in the past 5 or so years for this exact thing. Jefferson County has heard our plea more than once. We're not idiots here and do agree with you. Unless you pony up $100M pluse bucks and do this your self, you'll have to work the advocacy just like we are.

    ie

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjoga
    Throw in the shuttle/full-face/full-pad downhill riders and there's going to be a few unpleasant encounters. I'm sure that the XC type riders are responsible for a fair share of the conflicts also.
    -Chuck
    BINGO! There is no difference between XC and DH... ALL XCers go Down HILL! What most of you have problems with is Shuttlers, for some reason you can't fathom that someone would be dropped off.

    I have taken a count of conflicts between hikers/bikers and any DH rider (yes, that includes all bikers that go down the hill). I"m up to 56 xc conflicts and 2 Shuttling conflicts out of 98. Wow... you mean that there are a lot of bonehead guys that don't own DH bikes that can create conflict? Yep. More so than Shuttlers.

    I rode with a jeffco volunteer park ranger a few weeks back (on his rigid 29er) at falcon. As we descended (I"m on a 43 lb VPFREE), I could stop on a dime. That fecker couldn't stop to save his life... and darn near took out a hiker. XC f@cks with attitude and heart rate worries are more of a concern.

    Even if we eliminate the parking lots and drop off points, we'll still have just as much conflict. Even Schnausers can't yeild for people (as shown in his video), and he pedaled to the top of Bergen Peak.

  25. #25
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    on another note, I followed two very dedicated xc guys (my friends) down the hill. A ranger busted their a$$ for not yeilding... like 8 times.

    Bwaaa haa haa haa!

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