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  1. #1
    DWF
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    JCOS - I'm calling you out.

    I know you're reading this board JCOS representatives, or at least you ought to be, as at any given time there are 200-odd trail users assembled here making this is an excellent place for you to gather ideas & information and better manage our open spaces. I'm mean, that's what you're for, right? To serve us and manage our open spaces as we feel appropriate? So recognizing that you work for the citizenry, let's have an eco-friendly e-meeting.

    I'll start:

    I'm under the assumption you can't just make up regs out of thin air, so how did the new yielding regulations you've sprung on us get developed and codified? Who or what committee is the author? Did you ask for public review or comment? In the field, it seems you've charged your rangers with enforcing a policy that is not well thought out; one which they have differing & disjointed interpretations of; and one that appears to be unfairly & ignorantly meted out. Based on that, it gives every appearance that this was poorly organized and more likely an issue of management fiat & bias rather than properly developed through the greater user & JCOS community.

    I & many other taxpayers await & expect your response.

    Sincerely,
    Don Ferris
    JCOS Trail User
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  2. #2
    MK_
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    ...I'm mean...
    I'll second that notion.

    _MK

  3. #3
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    excellent use of the word 'fiat'.

  4. #4
    Colorado
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    This is almost as bad as TGR forum users thinking they should get sponsored for posting Trip Reports.

    No Government Agency gives a flying phuck about what anyone posts here.

  5. #5
    DWF
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drop the Seat
    This is almost as bad as TGR forum users thinking they should get sponsored for posting Trip Reports.

    No Government Agency gives a flying phuck about what anyone posts here.
    And that's the problem, they, along with you, have forgotten who they work for.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  6. #6
    Your retarded
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drop the Seat
    No Government Agency gives a flying phuck about what anyone posts here.
    I hope that's not true. It's in their best interests to listen to a user group like us. If we are passionate enough to lurk mountain bike forums just for a small hit of the passion we share toward the sport/hobby, we are also passionate enough to spend all our spare time and money on bikes and trails. We're quite the loyal and devoted user group under that logic. It's in their best interests to listen to us, IMO.
    A trail that’s too difficult wouldn’t exist because it’d never be used. But, trails can exist that’re too difficult for you.

  7. #7
    DWF
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    Emailed to JCOS, specifically, 'trockatjeffco.us'.....
    **************
    This email concerns the seemingly disjointed and poorly planned yielding regulation that has seen many mountain bikers using JCOS trails fined. There are two open forum discussions currently ongoing regarding this issue. You can find them here,

    Rangers enforcing Yield Rules at Lair O' the Bear

    and here,

    JCOS - I'm calling you out.

    Please openly respond and address these issues as soon as possible.

    Cheers!
    Don Ferris
    Littleton, Colorado
    *******************
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    Emailed to JCOS, specifically, 'trockatjeffco.us'.....
    **************
    This email concerns the seemingly disjointed and poorly planned yielding regulation that has seen many mountain bikers using JCOS trails fined. There are two open forum discussions currently ongoing regarding this issue. You can find them here,

    Rangers enforcing Yield Rules at Lair O' the Bear

    and here,

    JCOS - I'm calling you out.

    Please openly respond and address these issues as soon as possible.

    Cheers!
    Don Ferris
    Littleton, Colorado
    *******************
    Hmm, not sure what to say to that. Not sure I want to be represented as a mountain biker by some of the fool responses posted here. Here's hoping your "plan" works.
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  9. #9
    DWF
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    Hmm, not sure what to say to that. Not sure I want to be represented as a mountain biker by some of the fool responses posted here. Here's hoping your "plan" works.
    None of us are perfect, we are what we are, which makes us just like them & everybody else. They know about the threads and the issues. If they choose not to respond, we'll know one more thing about them and be better informed to make corrections down the line. The important thing to remember is we are not powerless, they work for the citizenry, we pay their salaries, and we have every right to make demands of them.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  10. #10
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    Not sure I want to be represented as a mountain biker by some of the fool responses posted here.
    Well, whether you like it or not, whether you realize it or not, you are. And were long before DWF posted this thread.

    Thanks DWF for taking action.

  11. #11
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    Hmm, not sure what to say to that. Not sure I want to be represented as a mountain biker by some of the fool responses posted here. Here's hoping your "plan" works.
    Absolutely 100% agree with you. This is NOT a well organized or run group of individuals. Heck, the in-fighting is enough to send Superman running for the hills.

    Team Evergreen, CoMBA, BMA, Bicycle Colorado, and even IMBA are where you should be directing your efforts. That's why people pay to be members of those organizations. They should be the one's fighting for your rights as an organized and well connected group. NOT the heathens that run amok in this forum. You are doing a dis-service by sending that message and having them come here.

  12. #12
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    I agree. With people like me asking about "Top Secret Freeride Trails"... what were you thinking? (I'm being serious)

  13. #13
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drop the Seat
    I agree. With people like me asking about "Top Secret Freeride Trails"... what were you thinking? (I'm being serious)
    Are you naive enough to think Jeffco doesn't routinely read this board?

  14. #14
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Are you naive enough to think Jeffco doesn't routinely read this board?

    Are you naive enough to think they actually even know this board exists? Do you have any idea how much open space needs to be maintained on a daily basis and the size of JCOS staff? How many do you think actually have desk jobs in the first place. How many of those do you think are actually even outdoors types? Take a trip over to the JCOS HQ and give a glance in one day. Say hi to Grammy for me. Wow!

  15. #15
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    Maybe so.

    In my mind I just can't see some old men, who work in the Open Space Department, who likely don't even mountain bike, who likely aren't very good with computers, lurking through MTBR forums trying to spy, or obtain information... of what type I can't even guess.

  16. #16
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Are you naive enough to think they actually even know this board exists?
    Yes, and I know for a fact at least two of them who do, so I'm not sure the word naive applies to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Do you have any idea how much open space needs to be maintained on a daily basis and the size of JCOS staff? How many do you think actually have desk jobs in the first place. How many of those do you think are actually even outdoors types? Take a trip over to the JCOS HQ and give a glance in one day. Say hi to Grammy for me. Wow!
    You dear, are perhaps the single worst advocate for any of your beloved causes, mtb- or music-related, so I take your commentary on this point with a grain of salt the size of Mt. Falcon.

  17. #17
    zrm
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    Team Evergreen, CoMBA, BMA, Bicycle Colorado, and even IMBA
    Yep, this issue is best dealt with by folks who have experience dealing with managing agencies. that doesn't mean that the "rank and file" shouldn't be involved and giving their input, but it does mean that there are certain avenues that should be taken that will get a lot better results than "calling out" a government agency on an Internet chat forum.

    You're right DWF that the folks at JCOS salaries are paid by taxpayers, and that includes hikers, horseback riders, and everyone else, not just mountain bikers. I've found over the years that groups do a lot better when they loose the "I'm a taxpayer" chip on their shoulder.

    That's not to say that there doesn't need to be regulations that make sense for everyone that are enforced in an even handed, professional way. If that is not the case, then there absolutely needs to be a change. You'll be a lot better off, though, if you talk to the folks at IMBA or any of the other organizations listed above and have this dealt with in an effective way. There is obviously a lot of energy here, it would be a shame to see it not used in a way that doesn't get results.

  18. #18
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Yes, and I know for a fact at least two of them who do, so I'm not sure the word naive applies to me.
    Really? Hang on...

    Just got off the phone with Wifey. I had her walk next door and check how many people were surfing MTBR. Let's see...

    ZERO POINT ZERO and a big "what's MTBR?"

    Sorry to disappoint you but MTBR is not very relevant, even in the MTB world. Get over it, you'll feel much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    You dear, are perhaps the single worst advocate for any of your beloved causes, mtb-related or music-related, so I take your commentary with a grain of salt the size of Mt. Falcon.
    Really, again?

    I think my causes and the band are doing just fine, thank you. MTBR hasn't hurt my business. As someone overheard me saying, maybe that's why I stick around.

  19. #19
    gravity curmudgeon
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    I think that most land managers do care what their users think. Reading a forum like this could be a useful way to gain insight into what some of a specific user group are thinking. However, if I worked for JCOS (or any other land management agency), I sure wouldn't post here. It would be like a slam bam fest.

    I appears to me that the Front Range is going through yet another growing phase. Vistor use conflicts on trails is heating up everywhere, but for you guys the issue is exacerbated by lots and lots of users. Becoming active with JCOS and/or working with a cycling advocacy group is the only real opportunity.

    JCOS's latest ranger-led mtb crackdown sounds bizarre and arbitrary to me. Crazy stuff. In a general sense it seems that the control freaks have somehow taken over - not a pleasant thought.

  20. #20
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    That's not to say that there doesn't need to be regulations that make sense for everyone that are enforced in an even handed, professional way. If that is not the case, then there absolutely needs to be a change. You'll be a lot better off, though, if you talk to the folks at IMBA or any of the other organizations listed above and have this dealt with in an effective way. There is obviously a lot of energy here, it would be a shame to see it not used in a way that doesn't get results.

    Sanity in an insane world. You are my hero .

  21. #21
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    I think the COMBA and the other organizations listed here have had a chance. They are representing us and yet OUR trails are still being turned into Wash Park style rides and now we've got the issue of this ridiculous Yield enforcement/harrassment.

    We can inundate JCOS, we can send more money to IMBA and COMBA etc, we can suck it up and get K-Mart bikes and white helmets, we just can't continue to do the same thing we've been doing and expect anything positive to occur.

  22. #22
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    MTBR hasn't hurt my business.
    Really? Then what explains your meltdown about the dates selected for RMH? Just a wee bit hormonal that day?

    Look, ya'll can't take a leadership role in mtb community matters, complain about the lack of rider involvement, and then quell involvement and interest because it didn't go through your prescribed channels.

    Let's capitalize on this. We can capitalize on this. This isn't about a pecking order or who's in charge. This is about fixing stuff that needs fixing. So, let's get with it already.

  23. #23
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1942
    I think the COMBA and the other organizations listed here have had a chance. They are representing us and yet OUR trails are still being turned into Wash Park style rides and now we've got the issue of this ridiculous Yield enforcement/harrassment.

    We can inundate JCOS, we can send more money to IMBA and COMBA etc, we can suck it up and get K-Mart bikes and white helmets, we just can't continue to do the same thing we've been doing and expect anything positive to occur.
    Nice troll! I like it! Keep 'em coming!

  24. #24
    MK_
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Really? Hang on...

    Just got off the phone with Wifey. I had her walk next door and check how many people were surfing MTBR. Let's see...

    ZERO POINT ZERO and a big "what's MTBR?"

    Sorry to disappoint you but MTBR is not very relevant, even in the MTB world. Get over it, you'll feel much better.
    Maybe you could call Wifey back, ask her to walk over one more time and inform the uniformed about this...

    _MK

  25. #25
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    Maybe you could call Wifey back, ask her to walk over one more time and inform the uniformed about this...

    _MK
    No, you see it's more important that he be right and be in charge, than actually fix the problem at hand.

    When this band thing flops, maybe he can get a job enforcing nonsensical yield rules at LOB.

  26. #26
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    Maybe you could call Wifey back, ask her to walk over one more time and inform the uniformed about this...

    _MK

    Geez! For the last time...

    THEY DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT MTBR!

  27. #27
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Really? Then what explains your meltdown about the dates selected for RMH? Just a wee bit hormonal that day?
    In retrospect? Yeah, maybe a little over the top but one person did pretty much own up to it by not replying to a certain PM.

    It's OK now. I just had to think about a while. Life goes on.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    In retrospect? Yeah, maybe a little over the top but one person did pretty much own up to it by not replying to a certain PM.

    It's OK now. I just had to think about a while. Life goes on.
    You can't take responsibility for anything, can you?

    Why don't you publicly apologize for calling anthonys employer? How would you feel if we all gave TE a call to complain about you?

  29. #29
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by athalliah
    You can't take responsibility for anything, can you?

    Why don't you publicly apologize for calling anthonys employer?
    Read his PM's. I am waiting and I will. We all jump to conclusions, it's human nature.

    "That is why I was so bewildered that you would schedule such a thing right over those dates. If you forgot and didn't know that is one thing. If that is so, then let me know and I will make a public apology."

    But, this was about JCOS. So, support your local MTB groups to advocate for you on trail issues.

    Thank you. I'll be here all night.

  30. #30
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Read his PM's. I am waiting and I will. We all jump to conclusions, it's human nature.

    "That is why I was so bewildered that you would schedule such a thing right over those dates. If you forgot and didn't know that is one thing. If that is so, then let me know and I will make a public apology."

    But, this was about JCOS. So, support your local MTB groups to advocate for you on trail issues.

    Thank you. I'll be here all night.
    Dude, start a separate thread.

    As I said, worst advocate ever.

  31. #31
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Dude, start a separate thread.

    As I said, worst advocate ever.
    I never said I was an actual advocate. If I were, I'd advocate for the couch. I said there are groups that WILL advocate FOR you. I belong to the board of a large Mayonnaise company. That doesn't mean I advocate for the use of Mayonnaise. But, I certainly want you to buy as much Mayo as possible.


  32. #32
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    Edit: Ne'ermind. Please forgive me, back on topic please.

  33. #33
    post-ride specialist
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    In Bushism, would that be misadvocate, or disadvocate? Judges?
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

  34. #34
    DWF
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Sorry to disappoint you but MTBR is not very relevant, even in the MTB world.
    If you were in the bike industry you'd have a better understanding of just how wrong you are. You should try to not make statements of fact about something you obviously know so little about. For a very minor example, you should remember the hissy you had when Anthony posted here about RMH.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    In Bushism, would that be misadvocate, or disadvocate? Judges?
    Unadvocate

  36. #36
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    No, you see it's more important that he be right and be in charge, than actually fix the problem at hand.

    When this band thing flops, maybe he can get a job enforcing nonsensical yield rules at LOB.
    If it flops it flops. I'm too old to be a famous rock star anyway. It's not about making money, it's just fun.

    As for enforcing yield rules? Nah. I don't care if you yield or not.

  37. #37
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    If you were in the bike industry you'd have a better understanding of just how wrong you are. You should try to not make statements of fact about something you obviously know so little about. For a very minor example, you should remember the hissy you had when Anthony posted here about RMH.

    Already discussed in this thread and then I realized that MTBR wasn't relevant. Really, it's not.

  38. #38
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    Not sure, does that mean you are calling me a troll? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1942
    Not sure, does that mean you are calling me a troll? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
    That depends on what kind of response you are looking for.

  40. #40
    The Notorious S.L.O
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1942
    I think the COMBA and the other organizations listed here have had a chance. They are representing us and yet OUR trails are still being turned into Wash Park style rides and now we've got the issue of this ridiculous Yield enforcement/harrassment.

    We can inundate JCOS, we can send more money to IMBA and COMBA etc, we can suck it up and get K-Mart bikes and white helmets, we just can't continue to do the same thing we've been doing and expect anything positive to occur.
    This pretty much sums up my attitude about JCOS and their activities this summer.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by athalliah
    You can't take responsibility for anything, can you?

    Why don't you publicly apologize for calling anthonys employer? How would you feel if we all gave TE a call to complain about you?
    Seriously?

    What a POS you are, Schnauzers. I wouldn't have expected such douchebag behavior even from you.
    Now with more vitriol!

  42. #42
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    Gettem!

  43. #43
    DWF
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    Response received via email:
    ************
    Mr. Ferris,

    Jefferson County Open Space (JCOS) does have a yielding regulation as noted. To clarify, the manner in which users are required to yield on JCOS trails is not new and has not changed. JCOS adopted the international definition of trail yielding that was developed many years ago by the International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA), and this has been enforced on JCOS trails since 1996. http://www.imba.com/about/trail_rules.html This definition and the international yield symbol are used by most land management agencies and are recognized by trail users around the world. This is not a definition that was developed by JCOS, but is endorsed and enforced on the trail system.

    The expectation for yielding is included in IMBA and JCOS publications. As defined therein, the expectation is to slow to a walking speed, communicate courteously and once communication is achieved, pass safely. If the other user does not communicate that it is safe to pass, the biker is required to stop and wait until such passage is safe. The JCOS yielding regulation includes these 4 elements and if any one of these elements fails to happen, yielding appropriately has not been achieved and this could result in a ticket.

    Hopefully this helps to clarify and confusion.

    Regards,

    Colleen Gadd
    Visitor & Resource Protection Supervisor
    Jefferson County Open Space
    *************
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  44. #44
    Your bike sucks
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    From my experience, some people at JCOS read this forum........ ocassionally. That said, I doubt there are many lurkers who influence policy. "Aware" might be the best word to describe how mtbr fits into the picture. Things may have changed over the last few years or I may be in the dark on who reads what....just an opinion from a one-time worker-bee.

    PS - The ranger ambush situation is complete BS.

  45. #45
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    Hey, Don, thanks for taking the time and posting all this and for actually doing it in the first place! Good info!

    X2 What Godzeera said!
    Biker? I don't even know her.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by athalliah
    You can't take responsibility for anything, can you?

    Why don't you publicly apologize for calling anthonys employer? How would you feel if we all gave TE a call to complain about you?
    I don't know the details of what happened here but this sounds like very bad juju.



    Very disappointing to read something like this. That's poisonous behavior.

    Ed

  47. #47
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega
    PS - The ranger ambush situation is complete BS.
    Thank you, agreed.

    If you're comfortable and have any helpful information to share, please PM me with any additional thoughts and insights you may have. As you know, I will be fighting this, because it was complete BS, and am gathering as much information as I can to be considered in court.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    The expectation for yielding is included in IMBA and JCOS publications. As defined therein, the expectation is to slow to a walking speed, communicate courteously and once communication is achieved, pass safely. If the other user does not communicate that it is safe to pass, the biker is required to stop and wait until such passage is safe. The JCOS yielding regulation includes these 4 elements and if any one of these elements fails to happen, yielding appropriately has not been achieved and this could result in a ticket.

    Hopefully this helps to clarify and confusion.
    Actually, it doesn't, and the bolded part simply adds more questions, seeing as though what contistutes "communication of safe passage" is largely up for debate. Frankly, I think that by ceasing to use the trail, standing off of it by several feet, turning your back to it, and actively indisposing yourself with cellphone/radio activity, constitutes exactly such "communication of safe passage" to other park users, and think that any reasonable person would agree with me.

    Look, I'm a COMBA member and an IMBA member. I have taken the initiative to attend multiple OSAC meetings over many years. Frankly I'm becoming very frustrated, disappointed, and at this point downright disheartened with COMBA's complete invisibility on both of these two recent very important and highly-charged matters with Jeffco -- both on the maintenance debacle, as well as the recent yield traps apparently designed to unfairly ticket bicyclists.

    I looked up COMBA's email addy and found it: bod@comba.org. Personally, as a pretty disappointed COMBA member I'm gonna take the time tomorrow to write my concerns directly to them and hope they respond. I think they meet regularly and we desperately need to hear something, anything from them on these matters.

    I suggest any COMBA members or otherwise concerned mountainbikers here do the same, and ask your mountainbiking friends to as well. It sure can't hurt.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FunkMaster's Avatar
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    I don't see how the average user can be expected to know the "4 elements" of yielding. I have noticed the sign indicating that bikes yield to everyone at trailheads, but this week is the first time I have ever seen the JCOS definition of yielding (Thanks TVC15). How can we honestly be expected to know that yielding requires you to slow to walking speed when the trail is 20 feet wide?

    DWF: Thanks for actually questioning the man!

    You can feel good about paying dues to some organization and hope they get around to representing your interests. Or we could all contact JCOS individually and let them know how we feel.

  50. #50
    Yappy little dog!
    Reputation: schnauzers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Thank you, agreed.

    If you're comfortable and have any helpful information to share, please PM me with any additional thoughts and insights you may have. As you know, I will be fighting this, because it was complete BS, and am gathering as much information as I can to be considered in court.

    Did you receive a citation? Just curious.

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