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  1. #1
    DWF
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    JCOS - I'm calling you out.

    I know you're reading this board JCOS representatives, or at least you ought to be, as at any given time there are 200-odd trail users assembled here making this is an excellent place for you to gather ideas & information and better manage our open spaces. I'm mean, that's what you're for, right? To serve us and manage our open spaces as we feel appropriate? So recognizing that you work for the citizenry, let's have an eco-friendly e-meeting.

    I'll start:

    I'm under the assumption you can't just make up regs out of thin air, so how did the new yielding regulations you've sprung on us get developed and codified? Who or what committee is the author? Did you ask for public review or comment? In the field, it seems you've charged your rangers with enforcing a policy that is not well thought out; one which they have differing & disjointed interpretations of; and one that appears to be unfairly & ignorantly meted out. Based on that, it gives every appearance that this was poorly organized and more likely an issue of management fiat & bias rather than properly developed through the greater user & JCOS community.

    I & many other taxpayers await & expect your response.

    Sincerely,
    Don Ferris
    JCOS Trail User
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  2. #2
    MK_
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    ...I'm mean...
    I'll second that notion.

    _MK

  3. #3
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    excellent use of the word 'fiat'.

  4. #4
    Colorado
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    This is almost as bad as TGR forum users thinking they should get sponsored for posting Trip Reports.

    No Government Agency gives a flying phuck about what anyone posts here.

  5. #5
    DWF
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drop the Seat
    This is almost as bad as TGR forum users thinking they should get sponsored for posting Trip Reports.

    No Government Agency gives a flying phuck about what anyone posts here.
    And that's the problem, they, along with you, have forgotten who they work for.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  6. #6
    Your retarded
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drop the Seat
    No Government Agency gives a flying phuck about what anyone posts here.
    I hope that's not true. It's in their best interests to listen to a user group like us. If we are passionate enough to lurk mountain bike forums just for a small hit of the passion we share toward the sport/hobby, we are also passionate enough to spend all our spare time and money on bikes and trails. We're quite the loyal and devoted user group under that logic. It's in their best interests to listen to us, IMO.
    A trail that’s too difficult wouldn’t exist because it’d never be used. But, trails can exist that’re too difficult for you.

  7. #7
    DWF
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    Emailed to JCOS, specifically, 'trockatjeffco.us'.....
    **************
    This email concerns the seemingly disjointed and poorly planned yielding regulation that has seen many mountain bikers using JCOS trails fined. There are two open forum discussions currently ongoing regarding this issue. You can find them here,

    Rangers enforcing Yield Rules at Lair O' the Bear

    and here,

    JCOS - I'm calling you out.

    Please openly respond and address these issues as soon as possible.

    Cheers!
    Don Ferris
    Littleton, Colorado
    *******************
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    Emailed to JCOS, specifically, 'trockatjeffco.us'.....
    **************
    This email concerns the seemingly disjointed and poorly planned yielding regulation that has seen many mountain bikers using JCOS trails fined. There are two open forum discussions currently ongoing regarding this issue. You can find them here,

    Rangers enforcing Yield Rules at Lair O' the Bear

    and here,

    JCOS - I'm calling you out.

    Please openly respond and address these issues as soon as possible.

    Cheers!
    Don Ferris
    Littleton, Colorado
    *******************
    Hmm, not sure what to say to that. Not sure I want to be represented as a mountain biker by some of the fool responses posted here. Here's hoping your "plan" works.
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  9. #9
    DWF
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    Hmm, not sure what to say to that. Not sure I want to be represented as a mountain biker by some of the fool responses posted here. Here's hoping your "plan" works.
    None of us are perfect, we are what we are, which makes us just like them & everybody else. They know about the threads and the issues. If they choose not to respond, we'll know one more thing about them and be better informed to make corrections down the line. The important thing to remember is we are not powerless, they work for the citizenry, we pay their salaries, and we have every right to make demands of them.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  10. #10
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    Not sure I want to be represented as a mountain biker by some of the fool responses posted here.
    Well, whether you like it or not, whether you realize it or not, you are. And were long before DWF posted this thread.

    Thanks DWF for taking action.

  11. #11
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    Hmm, not sure what to say to that. Not sure I want to be represented as a mountain biker by some of the fool responses posted here. Here's hoping your "plan" works.
    Absolutely 100% agree with you. This is NOT a well organized or run group of individuals. Heck, the in-fighting is enough to send Superman running for the hills.

    Team Evergreen, CoMBA, BMA, Bicycle Colorado, and even IMBA are where you should be directing your efforts. That's why people pay to be members of those organizations. They should be the one's fighting for your rights as an organized and well connected group. NOT the heathens that run amok in this forum. You are doing a dis-service by sending that message and having them come here.

  12. #12
    Colorado
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    I agree. With people like me asking about "Top Secret Freeride Trails"... what were you thinking? (I'm being serious)

  13. #13
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drop the Seat
    I agree. With people like me asking about "Top Secret Freeride Trails"... what were you thinking? (I'm being serious)
    Are you naive enough to think Jeffco doesn't routinely read this board?

  14. #14
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Are you naive enough to think Jeffco doesn't routinely read this board?

    Are you naive enough to think they actually even know this board exists? Do you have any idea how much open space needs to be maintained on a daily basis and the size of JCOS staff? How many do you think actually have desk jobs in the first place. How many of those do you think are actually even outdoors types? Take a trip over to the JCOS HQ and give a glance in one day. Say hi to Grammy for me. Wow!

  15. #15
    Colorado
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    Maybe so.

    In my mind I just can't see some old men, who work in the Open Space Department, who likely don't even mountain bike, who likely aren't very good with computers, lurking through MTBR forums trying to spy, or obtain information... of what type I can't even guess.

  16. #16
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Are you naive enough to think they actually even know this board exists?
    Yes, and I know for a fact at least two of them who do, so I'm not sure the word naive applies to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Do you have any idea how much open space needs to be maintained on a daily basis and the size of JCOS staff? How many do you think actually have desk jobs in the first place. How many of those do you think are actually even outdoors types? Take a trip over to the JCOS HQ and give a glance in one day. Say hi to Grammy for me. Wow!
    You dear, are perhaps the single worst advocate for any of your beloved causes, mtb- or music-related, so I take your commentary on this point with a grain of salt the size of Mt. Falcon.

  17. #17
    zrm
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    Team Evergreen, CoMBA, BMA, Bicycle Colorado, and even IMBA
    Yep, this issue is best dealt with by folks who have experience dealing with managing agencies. that doesn't mean that the "rank and file" shouldn't be involved and giving their input, but it does mean that there are certain avenues that should be taken that will get a lot better results than "calling out" a government agency on an Internet chat forum.

    You're right DWF that the folks at JCOS salaries are paid by taxpayers, and that includes hikers, horseback riders, and everyone else, not just mountain bikers. I've found over the years that groups do a lot better when they loose the "I'm a taxpayer" chip on their shoulder.

    That's not to say that there doesn't need to be regulations that make sense for everyone that are enforced in an even handed, professional way. If that is not the case, then there absolutely needs to be a change. You'll be a lot better off, though, if you talk to the folks at IMBA or any of the other organizations listed above and have this dealt with in an effective way. There is obviously a lot of energy here, it would be a shame to see it not used in a way that doesn't get results.

  18. #18
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Yes, and I know for a fact at least two of them who do, so I'm not sure the word naive applies to me.
    Really? Hang on...

    Just got off the phone with Wifey. I had her walk next door and check how many people were surfing MTBR. Let's see...

    ZERO POINT ZERO and a big "what's MTBR?"

    Sorry to disappoint you but MTBR is not very relevant, even in the MTB world. Get over it, you'll feel much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    You dear, are perhaps the single worst advocate for any of your beloved causes, mtb-related or music-related, so I take your commentary with a grain of salt the size of Mt. Falcon.
    Really, again?

    I think my causes and the band are doing just fine, thank you. MTBR hasn't hurt my business. As someone overheard me saying, maybe that's why I stick around.

  19. #19
    gravity curmudgeon
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    I think that most land managers do care what their users think. Reading a forum like this could be a useful way to gain insight into what some of a specific user group are thinking. However, if I worked for JCOS (or any other land management agency), I sure wouldn't post here. It would be like a slam bam fest.

    I appears to me that the Front Range is going through yet another growing phase. Vistor use conflicts on trails is heating up everywhere, but for you guys the issue is exacerbated by lots and lots of users. Becoming active with JCOS and/or working with a cycling advocacy group is the only real opportunity.

    JCOS's latest ranger-led mtb crackdown sounds bizarre and arbitrary to me. Crazy stuff. In a general sense it seems that the control freaks have somehow taken over - not a pleasant thought.

  20. #20
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    That's not to say that there doesn't need to be regulations that make sense for everyone that are enforced in an even handed, professional way. If that is not the case, then there absolutely needs to be a change. You'll be a lot better off, though, if you talk to the folks at IMBA or any of the other organizations listed above and have this dealt with in an effective way. There is obviously a lot of energy here, it would be a shame to see it not used in a way that doesn't get results.

    Sanity in an insane world. You are my hero .

  21. #21
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    I think the COMBA and the other organizations listed here have had a chance. They are representing us and yet OUR trails are still being turned into Wash Park style rides and now we've got the issue of this ridiculous Yield enforcement/harrassment.

    We can inundate JCOS, we can send more money to IMBA and COMBA etc, we can suck it up and get K-Mart bikes and white helmets, we just can't continue to do the same thing we've been doing and expect anything positive to occur.

  22. #22
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    MTBR hasn't hurt my business.
    Really? Then what explains your meltdown about the dates selected for RMH? Just a wee bit hormonal that day?

    Look, ya'll can't take a leadership role in mtb community matters, complain about the lack of rider involvement, and then quell involvement and interest because it didn't go through your prescribed channels.

    Let's capitalize on this. We can capitalize on this. This isn't about a pecking order or who's in charge. This is about fixing stuff that needs fixing. So, let's get with it already.

  23. #23
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1942
    I think the COMBA and the other organizations listed here have had a chance. They are representing us and yet OUR trails are still being turned into Wash Park style rides and now we've got the issue of this ridiculous Yield enforcement/harrassment.

    We can inundate JCOS, we can send more money to IMBA and COMBA etc, we can suck it up and get K-Mart bikes and white helmets, we just can't continue to do the same thing we've been doing and expect anything positive to occur.
    Nice troll! I like it! Keep 'em coming!

  24. #24
    MK_
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Really? Hang on...

    Just got off the phone with Wifey. I had her walk next door and check how many people were surfing MTBR. Let's see...

    ZERO POINT ZERO and a big "what's MTBR?"

    Sorry to disappoint you but MTBR is not very relevant, even in the MTB world. Get over it, you'll feel much better.
    Maybe you could call Wifey back, ask her to walk over one more time and inform the uniformed about this...

    _MK

  25. #25
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    Maybe you could call Wifey back, ask her to walk over one more time and inform the uniformed about this...

    _MK
    No, you see it's more important that he be right and be in charge, than actually fix the problem at hand.

    When this band thing flops, maybe he can get a job enforcing nonsensical yield rules at LOB.

  26. #26
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    Maybe you could call Wifey back, ask her to walk over one more time and inform the uniformed about this...

    _MK

    Geez! For the last time...

    THEY DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT MTBR!

  27. #27
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Really? Then what explains your meltdown about the dates selected for RMH? Just a wee bit hormonal that day?
    In retrospect? Yeah, maybe a little over the top but one person did pretty much own up to it by not replying to a certain PM.

    It's OK now. I just had to think about a while. Life goes on.

  28. #28
    enlightened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    In retrospect? Yeah, maybe a little over the top but one person did pretty much own up to it by not replying to a certain PM.

    It's OK now. I just had to think about a while. Life goes on.
    You can't take responsibility for anything, can you?

    Why don't you publicly apologize for calling anthonys employer? How would you feel if we all gave TE a call to complain about you?

  29. #29
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by athalliah
    You can't take responsibility for anything, can you?

    Why don't you publicly apologize for calling anthonys employer?
    Read his PM's. I am waiting and I will. We all jump to conclusions, it's human nature.

    "That is why I was so bewildered that you would schedule such a thing right over those dates. If you forgot and didn't know that is one thing. If that is so, then let me know and I will make a public apology."

    But, this was about JCOS. So, support your local MTB groups to advocate for you on trail issues.

    Thank you. I'll be here all night.

  30. #30
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Read his PM's. I am waiting and I will. We all jump to conclusions, it's human nature.

    "That is why I was so bewildered that you would schedule such a thing right over those dates. If you forgot and didn't know that is one thing. If that is so, then let me know and I will make a public apology."

    But, this was about JCOS. So, support your local MTB groups to advocate for you on trail issues.

    Thank you. I'll be here all night.
    Dude, start a separate thread.

    As I said, worst advocate ever.

  31. #31
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Dude, start a separate thread.

    As I said, worst advocate ever.
    I never said I was an actual advocate. If I were, I'd advocate for the couch. I said there are groups that WILL advocate FOR you. I belong to the board of a large Mayonnaise company. That doesn't mean I advocate for the use of Mayonnaise. But, I certainly want you to buy as much Mayo as possible.


  32. #32
    MFin' Princess
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    Edit: Ne'ermind. Please forgive me, back on topic please.

  33. #33
    post-ride specialist
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    In Bushism, would that be misadvocate, or disadvocate? Judges?
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

  34. #34
    DWF
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Sorry to disappoint you but MTBR is not very relevant, even in the MTB world.
    If you were in the bike industry you'd have a better understanding of just how wrong you are. You should try to not make statements of fact about something you obviously know so little about. For a very minor example, you should remember the hissy you had when Anthony posted here about RMH.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  35. #35
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    In Bushism, would that be misadvocate, or disadvocate? Judges?
    Unadvocate

  36. #36
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    No, you see it's more important that he be right and be in charge, than actually fix the problem at hand.

    When this band thing flops, maybe he can get a job enforcing nonsensical yield rules at LOB.
    If it flops it flops. I'm too old to be a famous rock star anyway. It's not about making money, it's just fun.

    As for enforcing yield rules? Nah. I don't care if you yield or not.

  37. #37
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    If you were in the bike industry you'd have a better understanding of just how wrong you are. You should try to not make statements of fact about something you obviously know so little about. For a very minor example, you should remember the hissy you had when Anthony posted here about RMH.

    Already discussed in this thread and then I realized that MTBR wasn't relevant. Really, it's not.

  38. #38
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    Not sure, does that mean you are calling me a troll? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1942
    Not sure, does that mean you are calling me a troll? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
    That depends on what kind of response you are looking for.

  40. #40
    The Notorious S.L.O
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1942
    I think the COMBA and the other organizations listed here have had a chance. They are representing us and yet OUR trails are still being turned into Wash Park style rides and now we've got the issue of this ridiculous Yield enforcement/harrassment.

    We can inundate JCOS, we can send more money to IMBA and COMBA etc, we can suck it up and get K-Mart bikes and white helmets, we just can't continue to do the same thing we've been doing and expect anything positive to occur.
    This pretty much sums up my attitude about JCOS and their activities this summer.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by athalliah
    You can't take responsibility for anything, can you?

    Why don't you publicly apologize for calling anthonys employer? How would you feel if we all gave TE a call to complain about you?
    Seriously?

    What a POS you are, Schnauzers. I wouldn't have expected such douchebag behavior even from you.
    Now with more vitriol!

  42. #42
    Thread Terrorist
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    Gettem!

  43. #43
    DWF
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    Response received via email:
    ************
    Mr. Ferris,

    Jefferson County Open Space (JCOS) does have a yielding regulation as noted. To clarify, the manner in which users are required to yield on JCOS trails is not new and has not changed. JCOS adopted the international definition of trail yielding that was developed many years ago by the International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA), and this has been enforced on JCOS trails since 1996. http://www.imba.com/about/trail_rules.html This definition and the international yield symbol are used by most land management agencies and are recognized by trail users around the world. This is not a definition that was developed by JCOS, but is endorsed and enforced on the trail system.

    The expectation for yielding is included in IMBA and JCOS publications. As defined therein, the expectation is to slow to a walking speed, communicate courteously and once communication is achieved, pass safely. If the other user does not communicate that it is safe to pass, the biker is required to stop and wait until such passage is safe. The JCOS yielding regulation includes these 4 elements and if any one of these elements fails to happen, yielding appropriately has not been achieved and this could result in a ticket.

    Hopefully this helps to clarify and confusion.

    Regards,

    Colleen Gadd
    Visitor & Resource Protection Supervisor
    Jefferson County Open Space
    *************
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  44. #44
    Your bike sucks
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    From my experience, some people at JCOS read this forum........ ocassionally. That said, I doubt there are many lurkers who influence policy. "Aware" might be the best word to describe how mtbr fits into the picture. Things may have changed over the last few years or I may be in the dark on who reads what....just an opinion from a one-time worker-bee.

    PS - The ranger ambush situation is complete BS.

  45. #45
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    Hey, Don, thanks for taking the time and posting all this and for actually doing it in the first place! Good info!

    X2 What Godzeera said!
    Biker? I don't even know her.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by athalliah
    You can't take responsibility for anything, can you?

    Why don't you publicly apologize for calling anthonys employer? How would you feel if we all gave TE a call to complain about you?
    I don't know the details of what happened here but this sounds like very bad juju.



    Very disappointing to read something like this. That's poisonous behavior.

    Ed

  47. #47
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega
    PS - The ranger ambush situation is complete BS.
    Thank you, agreed.

    If you're comfortable and have any helpful information to share, please PM me with any additional thoughts and insights you may have. As you know, I will be fighting this, because it was complete BS, and am gathering as much information as I can to be considered in court.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    The expectation for yielding is included in IMBA and JCOS publications. As defined therein, the expectation is to slow to a walking speed, communicate courteously and once communication is achieved, pass safely. If the other user does not communicate that it is safe to pass, the biker is required to stop and wait until such passage is safe. The JCOS yielding regulation includes these 4 elements and if any one of these elements fails to happen, yielding appropriately has not been achieved and this could result in a ticket.

    Hopefully this helps to clarify and confusion.
    Actually, it doesn't, and the bolded part simply adds more questions, seeing as though what contistutes "communication of safe passage" is largely up for debate. Frankly, I think that by ceasing to use the trail, standing off of it by several feet, turning your back to it, and actively indisposing yourself with cellphone/radio activity, constitutes exactly such "communication of safe passage" to other park users, and think that any reasonable person would agree with me.

    Look, I'm a COMBA member and an IMBA member. I have taken the initiative to attend multiple OSAC meetings over many years. Frankly I'm becoming very frustrated, disappointed, and at this point downright disheartened with COMBA's complete invisibility on both of these two recent very important and highly-charged matters with Jeffco -- both on the maintenance debacle, as well as the recent yield traps apparently designed to unfairly ticket bicyclists.

    I looked up COMBA's email addy and found it: bod@comba.org. Personally, as a pretty disappointed COMBA member I'm gonna take the time tomorrow to write my concerns directly to them and hope they respond. I think they meet regularly and we desperately need to hear something, anything from them on these matters.

    I suggest any COMBA members or otherwise concerned mountainbikers here do the same, and ask your mountainbiking friends to as well. It sure can't hurt.

  49. #49
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    I don't see how the average user can be expected to know the "4 elements" of yielding. I have noticed the sign indicating that bikes yield to everyone at trailheads, but this week is the first time I have ever seen the JCOS definition of yielding (Thanks TVC15). How can we honestly be expected to know that yielding requires you to slow to walking speed when the trail is 20 feet wide?

    DWF: Thanks for actually questioning the man!

    You can feel good about paying dues to some organization and hope they get around to representing your interests. Or we could all contact JCOS individually and let them know how we feel.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Thank you, agreed.

    If you're comfortable and have any helpful information to share, please PM me with any additional thoughts and insights you may have. As you know, I will be fighting this, because it was complete BS, and am gathering as much information as I can to be considered in court.

    Did you receive a citation? Just curious.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    I know you're reading this board JCOS representatives, or at least you ought to be, as at any given time there are 200-odd trail users assembled here making this is an excellent place for you to gather ideas & information and better manage our open spaces. I'm mean, that's what you're for, right? To serve us and manage our open spaces as we feel appropriate? So recognizing that you work for the citizenry, let's have an eco-friendly e-meeting.

    I'll start:

    I'm under the assumption you can't just make up regs out of thin air, so how did the new yielding regulations you've sprung on us get developed and codified? Who or what committee is the author? Did you ask for public review or comment? In the field, it seems you've charged your rangers with enforcing a policy that is not well thought out; one which they have differing & disjointed interpretations of; and one that appears to be unfairly & ignorantly meted out. Based on that, it gives every appearance that this was poorly organized and more likely an issue of management fiat & bias rather than properly developed through the greater user & JCOS community.

    I & many other taxpayers await & expect your response.

    Sincerely,
    Don Ferris
    JCOS Trail User



    Rather than respond to a bunch of comments to this thread, I'll post a general response.

    People in influential postions within the Boulder government read these forums.
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    Seriously?

    What a POS you are, Schnauzers. I wouldn't have expected such douchebag behavior even from you.
    The call was to a "sponsor" of an event and not someone's employer. I called the "sponsor" to ask why they had scheduled an event over another event and that it was not a good sign of support. In fact, there was NO mention of any named individual what-so-ever.

    Let's make sure we all understand that before you go calling me names.

    Edit: As a matter of fact, when I spoke to Mike (I think) which was a call back from the voice mail I left, he asked me who was organizing it and I saud nevermind it's all been cleared up. That's a fact. And no, I never mentioned anyone's name other than why is Yeti suddenly sponsoring a new event at the same time as the Epic. Fact #2: I asked a certain individual here why they were doing it long before any call was ever made. I only made the call after getting no response. I just wanted to know why.

  53. #53
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    totally inappropriate, Anthonys is not yeti and yeti is not anthonys. Do you realize the schedule that guy keeps demo-ing his companies bikes almost every weekend? Did you ever stop to think that maybe the weekend of your precious epic might be one of his only weekends off this year? Would you even want people demo-ing bikes while they should be doing the trail work?

    Yeti is not a sponsor of RMH, do you get that?

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    The call was to a "sponsor" of an event and not someone's employer. I called the "sponsor" to ask why they had scheduled an event over another event and that it was not a good sign of support. In fact, there was NO mention of any named individual what-so-ever.

    Let's make sure we all understand that before you go calling me names.

    Edit: As a matter of fact, when I spoke to Mike (I think) which was a call back from the voice mail I left, he asked me who was organizing it and I saud nevermind it's all been cleared up. That's a fact. And no, I never mentioned anyone's name other than why is Yeti suddenly sponsoring a new event at the same time as the Epic. Fact #2: I asked a certain individual here why they were doing it long before any call was ever made. I only made the call after getting no response. I just wanted to know why.
    Where do you work again? When I get done with the JCOS issue I may want to call Team Evergreen and tell them what a piss poor organizer they have for the "Epic." I won't mention any names of course.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drop the Seat
    No Government Agency gives a flying phuck about what anyone posts here.
    I'm sorry you feel that way. But, we probably put our career on the line every time we post in here. One sentence taken out of context, one wrong thing said and I might not be able to feed my 3 yo next week...

    That said, I don't read to much into the personal attacks and flaming that goes on. After all it is the Internet.


    Couple of points on the whole JCOS thing:

    #1. The kids building the trails were probably Youth Corps, usually scheduled well in advance, plus budgeted for, which should tell you that this was not an overnight decision. Perhaps the person representing the mountain bikers was not at that OS meeting or thought it was "no big deal"? Maybe check last years meeting agendas and minutes to figure it out? or vent on your OS board members for not representing you and working something out prior to the work? Alienating JCOS is not going to do MTB'rs as a group any good in the long run.

    My 2 cents: Having lived in Golden from '91-96, I can tell you without a doubt that some of those gnarly trails (i.e. Hogback) were sidewalks at one point in time. Natural processes take years to happen. And White Ranch is cupcake easy compared to what it was like on a full rigid with toeclips in '91...

    #2. It's the presentation, not the message. Many times people just need to vent. Yelling or insulting me(us) isn't going to change anything, but at least they feel better. Once they figure out that I really am concerned, then we can start to solve the problem. And as many people have stated, sometimes it's better to get a local advocacy group involved. We work with these guys on various issues throughout the year and in order to maintain working realtionships mutual respect must be shown at all times.

    #3. If you want freeride trails then you need to build them yourselves or figure out a way to raise money to have them built, in addition to maintaining them. That's What I did, and DougCO is doing now. We raised enough money and grants to pay for the design/roughing-in of the trail. The finish work, and maintenance, is to be done by volunteers. The past 4 years have been a real eye opener for me to see just how poorly funded out park maintenance programs are. We need volunteers too. Plus it's actually a lot of fun knowing you are working on a trail that was built specifically for MTB's.

    #4. Where I think IMBA and other MTB groups fall face down. Bells are 100 times more important than reflectors. Every bike sold should come with a $5 mirrabell. When I'm out of breath or tired of saying "on your left", that bell is soo easy to use, and hikers say "Thank you!" as I pass by. It's just too easy, I don't understand the problem. So I shave my legs and have a bell on my bike. Big Deal! Anyway, that $5 bell could save you a $50 ticket and more importantly preserve OUR trail access.

    UT

  56. #56
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser
    Rather than respond to a bunch of comments to this thread, I'll post a general response. People in influential postions within the Boulder government read these forums.
    indeed, despite what some people might posit here, JCOS staff is absolutely aware of this forum and these particular threads of late... (that i can assure you, though i would not hold my breath for a response).

    fwiw, know that the COMBA board of directors are meeting this week, where you can be sure that these issues will be of a high priority.
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    totally inappropriate, Anthonys is not yeti and yeti is not anthonys. Do you realize the schedule that guy keeps demo-ing his companies bikes almost every weekend? Did you ever stop to think that maybe the weekend of your precious epic might be one of his only weekends off this year? Would you want people demo-ing bikes while then should be doing the trail work?
    If you are dragging a trailer with a company's name to a publicized event where you say you are bringing the trailer, you are representing that company. When some local bike shop brings their demo trailer to Apex, who are they representing? If I see a Walmart truck parked in strip club, who do you think would get a call? When I wore an AACR cycling uniform in the Tour of Hope, who do you think I was representing?

    I don't know what having a day off has to do with anything. But ok.

    Plenty of people demo bikes during trail days. If that weren't so, more than 25 would show up on a trail day.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    Where do you work again? When I get done with the JCOS issue I may want to call Team Evergreen and tell them what a piss poor organizer they have for the "Epic." I won't mention any names of course.
    I don't work for Team Evergreen. I volunteer and you can mention any name you want. There are 300 mountain bikers in that club and six of them read this forum. Again, MTBR is not relevant.

  59. #59
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    the guy practically lives in that trailer. let him enjoy a leisurely weekend at a unsanctioned event organized by friends for friends. It was obvious in the original thread that bringing the trailer was a minor afterthought compared to the rest of the post.

    EDIT: Also if mtbr is irrelevant then a few people planning a unsanctioned weekend in durango shouldn't get your panties in such a bunch.


    I have no idea what your saying here:

    Plenty of people demo bikes during trail days. If that weren't so, more than 25 would show up on a trail day.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    the guy practically lives in that trailer. let him enjoy a leisurely weekend at a unsanctioned event organized by friends for friends. It was obvious in the original thread that bringing the trailer was a minor afterthought compared to the rest of the post.
    Ugh! And as I previously mentioned to Yeti... Never mind, it has been all sorted out.

    But, some lady seems to want to keep bringing things up when she doesn't like my responses and it has nothing to do with the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    I have no idea what your saying here:
    More people ride than work on trails. Way more. Demo away.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    I don't work for Team Evergreen. I volunteer and you can mention any name you want. There are 300 mountain bikers in that club and six of them read this forum. Again, MTBR is not relevant.
    If mtbr were not relevant, you wouldn't have whined and cried to anthonys employer that RMH, an mtbr gathering; was scheduled on the same weekend as Epic and would draw too many folks from your event. You contradict yourself with amazing consistency.

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Regardless, you are pulling attendees from a yearly advertised event and bringing a corporate trailer pretty much speaks of the support.
    link

    Sorry DWF, I'm leaving this alone now. On to the more important issue at hand.
    Last edited by athalliah; 07-22-2008 at 09:16 PM.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by athalliah
    If mtbr were not relevant, you wouldn't have whined and cried to anthonys employer that RMH, an mtbr gathering, was scheduled on the same weekend as Epic and would draw too many folks from your event. You contradict yourself with amazing consistency.

    Will you please read my entire statements before spouting? I know you can hear very well, but please read.

    I never said it would draw folks away from Epic. I said it was bad judgment to pick a day you knew was already scheduled for a major area event and have a company sponsor it since Yeti is a strong supporter of our efforts

    RMH was an afterthought and I wanted to know why. READ PLEASE. God, you make me tired.

    So you must of heard the voice mail in it's entirety as well?

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser
    Rather than respond to a bunch of comments to this thread, I'll post a general response.

    People in influential postions within the Boulder government read these forums.
    Good to know, and thank you for confirming that.

    Folks, I repeat, I looked up COMBA's email addy and found it: bod@comba.org, and as just one very disappointed COMBA member I'm gonna take the time tomorrow to write my concerns directly to them and hope they respond, not to me, but to these important issues. You all, please do the same, it might just help. They are our most local advocates and need to become involved in these important matters, better representing our community's interests. Thanks much.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Will you please read my entire statements before spouting? I know you can hear very well, but please read.

    I never said it would draw folks away from Epic. I said it was bad judgment to pick a day you knew was already scheduled for a major area event and have a company sponsor it since Yeti is a strong supporter of our efforts

    RMH was an afterthought and I wanted to know why. READ PLEASE. God, you make me tired.

    So you must of heard the voice mail in it's entirety as well?

    Man..do you seriously think that those who did the planning for RMH looked at the calendar and said to themselvs..How can we F*#% up someone else's weekend?


    It seems like the Epic fills up quite nicely every year..I mean according to your posts about the Epic "hurry and sign up...it fills up fast" or something along those lines..

    To quote a brilliant man, "Why can't we all just get along"

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Will you please read my entire statements before spouting? I know you can hear very well, but please read.

    I never said it would draw folks away from Epic.
    I can read pretty well, and that's exactly what you said... Here, let me quote you exactly:

    "Regardless, you are pulling attendees from a yearly advertised event and bringing a corporate trailer pretty much speaks of the support."

    So, you did say it would "pull" folks away from the Epic, which is pretty much saying it would draw folks away from the Epic, right? Can't you read your own comments?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysun71
    Man..do you seriously think that those who did the planning for RMH looked at the calendar and said to themselvs..How can we F*#% up someone else's weekend?


    It seems like the Epic fills up quite nicely every year..I mean according to your posts about the Epic "hurry and sign up...it fills up fast" or something along those lines..

    To quote a brilliant man, "Why can't we all just get along"
    No, they just didn't look at the calendar.

    I'm ready to move on, just waiting for the traffic to get out of the way.

  67. #67
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    Personally I like the sound of "disadvocate", but I'll concede that "misadvocate" may be more correct.
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

  68. #68
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    does anyone know this schnauzers guy? he sure comes across as an A$$ and just wondering what his deal is.. is he just having a bad day or week or year?

    thanks..

    curious MTBRer
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSD303
    I can read pretty well, and that's exactly what you said... Here, let me quote you exactly:

    "Regardless, you are pulling attendees from a yearly advertised event and bringing a corporate trailer pretty much speaks of the support."

    So, you did say it would "pull" folks away from the Epic, which is pretty much saying it would draw folks away from the Epic, right? Can't you read your own comments?
    Yes, and it is definitely pulling attendees from MTBR. Not a lot, but some. It's a true statement, I don't know what else you want me to say about it. There-in also lies the issue of representation that I spoke about. Again, I don't think I have made up something that wasn't true.

    For the record, before posting I sent this in a PM and received no answer. I was not out to "slam" anyone, I just wanted to know why. I wouldn't have posted anything if I had gotten a reply. Though it may not say it, my immediate association was to Yeti.

    RMH date conflict

    Anthony,

    9/12-9/14 is the same weekend as the Buffalo Creek Epic Weekend. We really count on a lot of people who may choose RMH. I'd really wish you could have picked a different date.

    Thank you

  70. #70
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    Is there actually a master calender out there that has every upcoming event listed?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia
    does anyone know this schnauzers guy? he sure comes across as an A$$ and just wondering what his deal is.. is he just having a bad day or week or year?

    thanks..

    curious MTBRer
    Plenty of people know me. Many of them here. It's the Internet, get over it. I'm really a bad a$$ chopper rider who weighs 310, is 6'5" and hate cyclists.

    No, I'm not a bad guy. It's just a few who have it out for me because I posted a SPAM message about where my band was playing. Such an offense should only be punishable by death.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    Is there actually a master calender out there that has every upcoming event listed?

    I believe it's called the internet. (and to some, the internets)
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    Is there actually a master calender out there that has every upcoming event listed?
    No, but that event was posted and responded to. That's why I asked if it was just forgotten.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Plenty of people know me. Many of them here. It's the Internet, get over it. I'm really a bad a$$ chopper rider who weighs 310, is 6'5" and hate cyclists.

    No, I'm not a bad guy. It's just a few who have it out for me because I posted a SPAM message about where my band was playing. Such an offense should only be punishable by death.
    Trust me, for myself and I'd suspect many others, it has nothing to do with your band.

    And don't forget, right now you're representing Team Evergreen and if they lose just one member because of you, well, just keep telling yourself you're just a volunteer...and not on their board of directors.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    If you are dragging a trailer with a company's name to a publicized event where you say you are bringing the trailer, you are representing that company. When some local bike shop brings their demo trailer to Apex, who are they representing? If I see a Walmart truck parked in strip club, who do you think would get a call?
    I'm so glad we have folks like you to police the world for us.. I hope no evil walmart trucker tries to make a stop at Shotgun Willies while Schnauzers is on the prowl.

    For someone that has claimed to be an executive, calling anthonys' employer has to be one of the most shortsighted and childish actions I've heard of on these boards for quite a while. If I attend RMH in an IBM truck are you planning to call them and whine that they're not supporting your chosen cause as well? This appears fairly simple, you were pissy about the conflict and got worked up that he didn't bother to respond to your self-important PM demanding explanation. Guess what?.. He doesn't owe you an explanation and neither does Yeti.

    As others have stated multiple times, you're doing the Epic a huge disservice with your actions. As an outside observer I'm inclined to avoid this event simply to avoid your association. It would seem rude for me to have to show up to an event and start off by telling the organizer he's an asshat.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    Personally I like the sound of "disadvocate", but I'll concede that "misadvocate" may be more correct.
    If you're looking for accuracy, you might need to through jackassvocate into the mix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    I'm so glad we have folks like you to police the world for us.. I hope no evil walmart trucker tries to make a stop at Shotgun Willies while Schnauzers is on the prowl.

    For someone that has claimed to be an executive, calling anthonys' employer has to be one of the most shortsighted and childish actions I've heard of on these boards for quite a while. If I attend RMH in an IBM truck are you planning to call them and whine that they're not supporting your chosen cause as well? This appears fairly simple, you were pissy about the conflict and got worked up that he didn't bother to respond to your self-important PM demanding explanation. Guess what?.. He doesn't owe you an explanation and neither does Yeti.

    As others have stated multiple times, you're doing the Epic a huge disservice with your actions. As an outside observer I'm inclined to avoid this event simply to avoid your association. It would seem rude for me to have to show up to an event and start off by telling the organizer he's an asshat.
    Check and mate... Thanks thump!

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    I'm so glad we have folks like you to police the world for us.. I hope no evil walmart trucker tries to make a stop at Shotgun Willies while Schnauzers is on the prowl..
    It was an analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    For someone that has claimed to be an executive, calling anthonys' employer has to be one of the most shortsighted and childish actions I've heard of on these boards for quite a while. If I attend RMH in an IBM truck are you planning to call them and whine that they're not supporting your chosen cause as well? This appears fairly simple, you were pissy about the conflict and got worked up that he didn't bother to respond to your self-important PM demanding explanation. Guess what?.. He doesn't owe you an explanation and neither does Yeti.
    If an IBM truck pulls up at a clan rally, you can certainly expect that i would call and ask why. If IBM sanctioned it, the driver would have nothing to worry about, now would he? I merely asked why is Yeti suddenly having a ride event on that day when there was a major trail event scheduled long before. I NEVER MENTIONED ANTHONY'S NAME. There was never an intention of implicating an individual. Stop reading more into this. Then again, if Hillary says it's true, then it must be.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    Response received via email:
    ************
    Mr. Ferris,

    Jefferson County Open Space (JCOS) does have a yielding regulation as noted. To clarify, the manner in which users are required to yield on JCOS trails is not new and has not changed. JCOS adopted the international definition of trail yielding that was developed many years ago by the International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA), and this has been enforced on JCOS trails since 1996. http://www.imba.com/about/trail_rules.html This definition and the international yield symbol are used by most land management agencies and are recognized by trail users around the world. This is not a definition that was developed by JCOS, but is endorsed and enforced on the trail system.

    The expectation for yielding is included in IMBA and JCOS publications. As defined therein, the expectation is to slow to a walking speed, communicate courteously and once communication is achieved, pass safely. If the other user does not communicate that it is safe to pass, the biker is required to stop and wait until such passage is safe. The JCOS yielding regulation includes these 4 elements and if any one of these elements fails to happen, yielding appropriately has not been achieved and this could result in a ticket.

    Hopefully this helps to clarify and confusion.

    Regards,

    Colleen Gadd
    Visitor & Resource Protection Supervisor
    Jefferson County Open Space
    *************
    Thanks for digging into this. Good to know I'm over doing it.

  80. #80
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    WOW!!!! Is all I have to say.....bipolar thread?

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    Can I come to the RMH gathering?...I was thinking of going to that Epic thing but the organisers sound like a bunch of Nazis and I don't think it would be any fun, I mean who wants to yield when shredding the gnar?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    I merely asked why is Yeti suddenly having a ride event on that day when there was a major trail event scheduled long before. I NEVER MENTIONED ANTHONY'S NAME.
    You are a lost cause.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    For the record, before posting I sent this in a PM and received no answer.

    RMH date conflict

    Anthony,

    9/12-9/14 is the same weekend as the Buffalo Creek Epic Weekend. We really count on a lot of people who may choose RMH. I'd really wish you could have picked a different date.

    Thank you
    Don't expect an answer, you never asked a question...

    Wish I had the time to fool around on emptybeer today, but alas I am not working. I'll be riding all day.


    To the OP. Thank you for supplementing communication with JCOS. I can only hope we can get some sort of answers to the LOTB ambush.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotdirt
    indeed, despite what some people might posit here, JCOS staff is absolutely aware of this forum and these particular threads of late... (that i can assure you, though i would not hold my breath for a response).

    fwiw, know that the COMBA board of directors are meeting this week, where you can be sure that these issues will be of a high priority.
    As a COMBA member who wonders where my dues go, I certainly do hope they jump all over what's going on with Jeffco. I can't for the life of me figure out what in the heck their priorities are as of late. It's really getting frustrating. I want to pitch in, and volunteer, but if you can't figure out what is going on, it's hard. Don't know why they can't put an email bulletin out to their members like BMA does. I'm really wondering if COMBA is effective at all anymore.

    R

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail
    <snip>

    #4. Where I think IMBA and other MTB groups fall face down. Bells are 100 times more important than reflectors. Every bike sold should come with a $5 mirrabell. When I'm out of breath or tired of saying "on your left", that bell is soo easy to use, and hikers say "Thank you!" as I pass by. It's just too easy, I don't understand the problem. So I shave my legs and have a bell on my bike. Big Deal! Anyway, that $5 bell could save you a $50 ticket and more importantly preserve OUR trail access.

    UT
    Thanks for weighing in on this.

    I'm going to get one of these:




  86. #86
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    Further updates (bold is mine. I can't tell if she actually read the threads, but she's got faith in the rangers...):
    ****************
    Mr. Ferris,

    I understand your concern, however, I assure you that in situations where any ticket was written at least one or more of the elements of yielding did not occur. I'm happy to speak with you personally if you have a specific incident in which you were involved or have questions about. Please, feel free to call me with your concerns and we can discuss. Respectfully, I don't think the forum is the appropriate venue for me to address individuals' concerns, however, I do see value in speaking with anyone who would like to contact me directly regarding our yielding regulation and how we enforce it.

    Regards,

    Colleen Gadd
    Visitor & Resource Protection Supervisor
    Jefferson County Open Space



    >>> "Don Ferris" <don@anvilbikes.com> 07/22/08 6:53 PM >>>
    Ms. Gadd - Thank you for your response. Perhaps you're not aware, but JCOS rangers are ticketing MTBRs over how they ask to pass or for not stopping completely regardless of the trail situation. As far as the JCOS regulations, your rangers are enforcing it above & beyond what IMBA and common sense suggests. While it may be tedious, I ask you to review the two threads, and reply publicly. I will post your response below to the thread.

    Cheers!
    Don Ferris
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  87. #87
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    Don, thank you very much for your diplomacy and for trying to get some common sense back in the enforcement of these rules. You rule and I would love to buy you some beer!

    Also - I rode up Apex and down Enchanted and was wondering what all the fuss was about - didn't notice too much difference from the last time I rode it... Then went up the switchbacks on PicknSledge/Sluicebox and when coming down saw the mess that people were crying about: trail "derockification" (is that one okay icegeek - TVC15?)... Sluicebox or picknsledge (forget which) was a two inch deep dust powder four feet wide nightmare. The only rocks that weren't removed most likely would have required a crane to do so. Perhaps that is scheduled next week?
    Last edited by JSD303; 07-23-2008 at 09:55 AM.

  88. #88
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    The Governement is watching...






  89. #89
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    Don, is she saying that we can protest the ticket if we feel communication was made? That seems to be the subjective thing here.
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  90. #90
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    I have a feeling these tickets aren't going to hold up in court...

  91. #91
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    So bells are thought to be a friendly form of communication? I'd have guessed they're up there w/ skiers tapping their poles together when they want to go around, which is pretty much just like saying on your left, but less personable.
    I'm ok w/ the bell though if everyone else is...
    Golden Bike Park

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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    If an IBM truck pulls up at a clan rally, you can certainly expect that i would call and ask why. If IBM sanctioned it, the driver would have nothing to worry about, now would he? I merely asked why is Yeti suddenly having a ride event on that day when there was a major trail event scheduled long before. I NEVER MENTIONED ANTHONY'S NAME. There was never an intention of implicating an individual. Stop reading more into this. Then again, if Hillary says it's true, then it must be.
    For some reason you can't seem to differentiate that bringing a trailer does not equal company sponsorship. If you have company equipment you're allowed to use at your discretion, that does not equal company sponsorship. If I borrow a company truck on my own time to help you move some furniture does that mean that they are sponsoring your move? If you wear a Giro helmet to the Epic does that mean they're sponsoring the event? I think you already know the "trailer = yeti sponsorship" rationale is BS but are stuck trying to defend this weak sauce position to avoid admitting you were just being a pissy b1tch when you called his company. You know damn well the "I didn't use his name directly" excuse is complete crap. If you were calling with the intent of referencing RMH, then you knew the name would be evident. This isn't a Hillary issue, you've straight up admitted your actions. Hopefully you can do some self reflection, grow a pair and apologize for being such a backhanded weasel.

    DWF - apologies for further threadjacking.. nice efforts with JCOS.

  93. #93
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    Not everyone likes the bell. I recall this post from another discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3sigma
    This past weekend I had a minor confrontation with a hiker at White Ranch about my using a bell. I voiced that I would like to pass - no response. So, I rang my bell. The hiker turned and intentionally blocked the trail. He proceeded to tell me how annoying, rude, and inconsiderate I was to use a bell. Furthermore he would not let me or any other MTB rider pass that rang a bell. I apologized and explained that I was trying to be considerate of other trail users. This didn't seem to appease him. He continued to block the trail. BTW: I am well over 6 foot tall and over 200 lbs.
    He said I was lucky that we weren't in the parking lot. Otherwise, he had a "Glock" (I assume that is a firearm) in his vehicle and he would "blow my ass away."

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    For some reason you can't seem to differentiate that bringing a trailer does not equal company sponsorship. If you have company equipment you're allowed to use at your discretion, that does not equal company sponsorship. If I borrow a company truck on my own time to help you move some furniture does that mean that they are sponsoring your move? If you wear a Giro helmet to the Epic does that mean they're sponsoring the event? I think you already know the "trailer = yeti sponsorship" rationale is BS but are stuck trying to defend this weak sauce position to avoid admitting you were just being a pissy b1tch when you called his company. You know damn well the "I didn't use his name directly" excuse is complete crap. If you were calling with the intent of referencing RMH, then you knew the name would be evident. This isn't a Hillary issue, you've straight up admitted your actions. Hopefully you can do some self reflection, grow a pair and apologize for being such a backhanded weasel.

    DWF - apologies for further threadjacking.. nice efforts with JCOS.
    ok. Thank you.

  95. #95
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    I got the impression that the rangers and signage were saying that bells were not OK.

    To me, I guess it would depend how they are used. I always thought of them as being kind of polite. If you roll right up behind someone and ding it, that's not so nice.

    DWF,

    Thanks for posting up those responses you got from JCOS.

    It seems pretty clear from a full reading of this thread and the attached photos of the trail signs that what's being enforced is not consistent with the generally accepted definition of "yield", and have expanded on it, specifically by adding the very specific requirements of courteous communications and how it is defined.

    Further, in looking back to the "sting" operation that started this thread, even the JCOS postings and e-mails from the supervisor don't explain how or why one is required to yield to a person not on a trail, nor how or when you can safely pass if that person refuses to communicate. Yet they do say you can pass once it is safe.

  96. #96
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    how about a la cocaracha air horn?

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    how about a la cocaracha air horn?
    Mmmm....carne asada

    The onions and cilantro really make the meal.
    Now with more vitriol!

  98. #98
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
    I got the impression that the rangers and signage were saying that bells were not OK.

    It seems pretty clear from a full reading of this thread and the attached photos of the trail signs that what's being enforced is not consistent with the generally accepted definition of "yield", and have expanded on it, specifically by adding the very specific requirements of courteous communications and how it is defined.
    Exactly right Harry. And Ithnu, of course you can protest your ticket, you don't need JCOS approval to do so, you just need to show up in court and have a judge consider all the facts. Which is gonna happen, hopefully repeatedly.

    Folks, here's what I wrote to COMBA. It's lengthy, my apologies, but if you take all of these items individually they might seems kind of petty; but when you put it all together you see what all the fuss is about, you see why seven of us were so outraged by this poorly managed trap at LOTB, and you see why Jeffco's recent actions affecting us need serious attention as this is already out of hand. COMBA's Presdient has already replied back to me, and based on what he wrote, I'm much more assured that he understands these issues and am more reassured that he and COMBA is committed to fixing them. But they'll need our input, they'll need our hep.

    So, if you haven't yet had a chance yet to contact COMBA or Jeffco with your concerns, please do, and please do so courteously, and adamanty. Fight the good fight, ya'll! ~ TVC

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    July 23, 2008
    SUBJECT: COMBA Representation in Jeffco Issues

    Dear COMBA Board of Directors:

    I am an IMBA member since 1999, and immediately became a charter member of COMBA because I believed that your organization would be dedicated to staying abreast of local issues affecting our mountain bike community, as well advocating for our access, rights, and representation in park matters. Jeffco Open Space provides the majority of parks that your members cherish locally on the Front Range, and have recently been implementing decisions that significantly and negatively impact our user group with what seems to be very limited, insufficient, or completely absent representation from the mountain bike community.

    Many of your members like myself are becoming extremely concerned and disheartened by some of Jeffco's most recent decisions; many more potential COMBA members are equally so. Therefore I bring these two specific matters respectfully to COMBA's Board of Directors' attention and ask for your response.

    Poorly Supervised Trail Maintenance
    Over the course of two months ill-advised and poorly managed trail maintenance has been done in Jeffco parks employing the unsupervised help of Boy Scout troops who widened park trails and removed any rocks taller than 3” in expansive sections of trail, thereby spoiling the park’s natural beauty, greatly diminishing trail character, and creating potential and serious erosion concerns where none or less existed on the wonderfully matured trails as they were before. These actions were not well received by anyone I know personally in the mountain bike community, but these actions were a topic of significant interest within it.

    Expanded Yielding Definitions
    Historically, Jeffco trail users have become accustomed to their traditional Right of Way (ROW) yielding signage that appears in a yellow triangle depicting that mountain bikers yield to all other trail users. Colleen Gadd with Jeffco’s Visitor & Resource Protection Supervisor informed our community recently that Jeffco’s “4 Point Rule” is considered thusly:

    “… expectation for yielding is included in IMBA and JCOS publications. As defined therein, the expectation is to slow to a walking speed, communicate courteously and once communication is achieved, pass safely. If the other user does not communicate that it is safe to pass, the biker is required to stop and wait until such passage is safe. The JCOS yielding regulation includes these 4 elements and if any one of these elements fails to happen, yielding appropriately has not been achieved and this could result in a ticket.”

    However, recently it appears that Jeffco rangers have expanded these expectations enforcing new definitions (attached: Flyer.doc). Although I support the apparent intent of these definitions to increase park safety and improve relations between user groups, the newly adopted definitions and expectations pose several serious concerns to our biking community, among them:

    - These expanded definitions seem more intended to manage mountain bikers as an inferior user group in their parks, than intended to better and more safely control traffic and increase rapport between visitors.
    - The new definitions state that yielding behaviors cannot be made considering either trail width or condition, yet both factors are essential to determine when and how passage is safe.
    - Currently, the new rules are being enforced with the strictest of interpretations by rangers using yield traps with unfair entrapment tactics designed to lure mountain bikers into confusing yielding situations and issuing tickets to them.
    - These tickets are being issued with dishonest techniques, and convictions statistics of undeserved tickets could be used against our community in the future, and that could impair our access or rights in Jeffco parks.



    Jeffco trails are heavily used by many people. Following Jeffco’s newly expanded yielding definitions to the strictest of interpretation in each and every contact a mountain biker makes with another trail user is not only unnecessary for park safety but unreasonable, and in fact impossible in some situations. As currently written, even mountain bikers who attempt to honor these exhaustive, short-sighted, and nonsensical definitions would still be technically guilty of improper yielding, even if and when they were the more courteous and safe park user -- and found guilty of a yielding offense by a ranger solely because they ride a bike! For instance,
    … if a biker sought to make but was unable to establish communication with a trail runner using headphones, but eventually safely and carefully passed the runner, the biker still would be guilty of Failure to Yield because he failed to establish communication, even though the other user by his own actions made that impossible; even though the mountain biker was the park user acting most responsibly.

    …. if a biker was riding in the same direction of another trail user who was walking on the trail and was for some reason intent on unreasonably withholding the biker’s ROW, the biker would have no recourse but to stay behind the superior trail user indefinitely. You see, in the strictest of interpretation, which Jeffco is now using to enforce these rules in their parks, the biker who was traveling in the same direction would have to dismount, attempt to pass the unreasonable park user, but at no more than walking speed … when the unreasonable park user is in fact walking.

    I know these examples may sound absurd as they would have to me had I not personally experienced them, so please accept the possibility that my concerns are valid.

    These citations have been issued in patently unfair yielding traps that employ entrapment techniques, where plain-clothes rangers are not acting as a normal hiker would walking some portion of the trail -- they stand off the trail, at a very wide section of the trail, providing exceedingly sufficient room to safely pass, and then ticket riders who have reasonably assumed that the plain-clothes trail user has voluntarily granted the bicyclist ROW. Even though the biker passed the ranger safely, even though they passed him courteously, bikers are still being issued a ticket for Failure to Yield Right of Way using a variety of petty infractions of the yield definition details now established in their new flyers, such as: passed at greater than (an undefined) walking speed; failed to establish communication; made proper communication but failed to wait for verbal response back from superior park user who had right of way; made communication but made the wrong communication. You see, “On Your Left” is now specifically a violation of Jeffo yielding protocols, as it assumes, i.e, takes ROW and therefore does not allow another superior park visitor to grant it to the mountain biker.

    I ask you, what’s the point of all this absurdity? Is the point of all this to actually increase park safety, or actually to punish and harass mountain bikers?! These entrapment techniques have been seen by and employed upon at least five of your own COMBA members. If you would like greater details on them (and I hope that you would), any one of us would be happy to provide additional testimony personally to your Board. In the meantime, you must recognize that these traps are being set up, and that statistics surrounding any unjust tickets will likely negatively affect our mountain bike community in the future.

    It is of note that the expansion of Jeffco’s definitions surrounding yielding behaviors appear to have been sprung upon the mountain bike community, with no public notice or comment. As a COMBA member and Jeffco resident, this concerns me greatly. I believe the adoption of the newly augmented definitions should be investigated further.

    I thank you for considering the two serious issues concerning Jeffco that I raised in this letter, and can assure you that these topics are not just matters of importance to me, but to the constituency that you, COMBA, serve.

    To that end, as a COMBA member, I would like to hear more about how COMBA has been involved with Jeffco previously. Do you have a point of contact there? Do you communicate regularly with our mountain bike Task Use Force Representative? I am also curious as to how will you stay even more closely involved with Jeffco matters in the future.

    Mountain bikers continually hear that trail-user representation at Jeffco meetings is critically important. Therefore, how will COMBA ensure that more of your members become aware of upcoming meetings, and recruit them to attend?

    How is COMBA looking to establish two-way communication with your members? As a member, I receive infrequent bulk emails, but would like more information, and better reciprocal communication. I think it would be helpful and advisable for COMBA to reach out to its members more regularly, requesting feedback and generally communicating better with them about their issues, thoughts, and needs. A variety of methods could be employed to do this, such as member surveys, and "town hall” style meetings that invite member participation to communicate with the Board. There are popular internet bulletin boards already established (MTBR, TrailCentral), are you taking advantage of these free communication channels that hundreds of mountain bikers and your own COMBA members already currently use? If not, and if you find them unhelpful in all ways, can we expect that the COMBA website might be updated to allow for more necessary and public comment from your members?

    In closing, I would like to thank you all sincerely for your work and your dedicated service. I too am a dedicated cyclist and have attended many mountain bike advocacy events and OSAC meetings as well. With that said, I urge COMBA to continue its efforts with the spirit of vigorous advocacy to serve and protect mountain bikers’ interests, and not simply help powers-that-be implement misguided and unsound policies that negatively and unfairly impact our user group. Thank you.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by TVC15; 07-24-2008 at 07:52 AM.

  99. #99
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    Wow! Thank you, TVC15. I guess I know what you were working on while I was sleeping...

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSD303
    Wow! Thank you, TVC15. I guess I know what you were working on while I was sleeping...
    Yeah, I kinda got on a terror ...

    But we need serious attention to this stuff. If we do that professionally and as a community, utilizing all of our resources toward that end (including our established mtb leadership), I think we can get some necessary attention to this matter and maybe make some senisble changes that helps JCOS achieve what they need to achieve in park visitor manager, just in a much better and more well-considered way.

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