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  1. #1
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    I doubt anyone's interested, but...

    Late notice, I know, but tomorrow morning, we're going to hike/ride/scout some of the open spaces terrain above Idaho Springs where we'll be building new trails this winter (weather permitting). The stuff we'll be looking at will be the area where the DH/FR trails will be. We're going to ride up from town on the road, and then ride/hike down the proposed line for the trail.

    It may be slow going on the way down, I'm expecting to encounter a lot of deadfall and overgrowth, so there will likely be some hike-a-bike. But it should be interesting.

    Anyway, we're meeting at 9 am at the coffee shop across from Beau Jo's...
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  2. #2
    zrm
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    Who manages the land? Has all this gone through th proper channels? (NEPA, if on FS, etc)

    Just curious. Usually you propose a trail alingment then it goes through the process if you're talking FS land. Municipal or County open space departments are differnt and usually will have somewhat less red tape but it varies town to town county to county.

  3. #3
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    Too short notice for me

    However: Let me know when you have a building schedule. I'll come and help. Looking forward to it!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Who manages the land? Has all this gone through th proper channels? (NEPA, if on FS, etc)

    Just curious. Usually you propose a trail alingment then it goes through the process if you're talking FS land. Municipal or County open space departments are differnt and usually will have somewhat less red tape but it varies town to town county to county.
    Manages this land? It's not really managed, in any active sense. It's open space land that's part of a project that Clear Creek County and Idaho Springs started but never finished because they don't have money or people. It's been designated specifically for mountain bike trails (and some multi-use trails), and some locals, myself included, have been given permission by the city to build on it, so it's entirely up to us to design it, build it, map it, name it, mark it, etc. Or we could just blow it off and let it sit there and wait for someone else to do it...

    The city and county plotted out the open space boundaries and generated some proposed routes (see <a href="http://clearcreektrails.com/idaho_topo.html">this map</a>) but they don't make sense because of the fall lines and topography -- like "downhill trails" that have climbs on them, XC trails that go straight up steep grades and multi-use trails that cross DH/FR trails. So we need to find the best routes that make the best sense in terms of -- what can be ridden, what's safe, what's going to be sustainable, etc. Which is what we're doing tomorrow.

    It's entirely up to us -- grassroots style -- we build it, we ride it. The community is beginning to come around to the value of mountain biking for the economy, and the land is otherwise fallow, so our slave -- er, free labor is welcome. We hope that by doing this, the county will be more supportive in the future, help us access more land, maybe even give us a budget. HA!!! Right.

    You're welcome to come check it out.

    -EDIT- And by "entirely up to us - we build it, we ride it" - I mean mountain bikers in general, not "locals only" or anything like that. As in, since the county or city is not paying a dime to have these trails built, if we don't do it, no one will -- but if we do, then we can designate the trails as we see fit and build them in the order we prefer -- so while there will be multi-use trails open to hikers and equestrians, there will also be MTB-only trails, including "downhill traffic only" trails, with appropriate warning signs to keep hikers and horses off. Personally, I'm not a downhiller, but I see those trails as the star attraction over here -- the terrain up there is just perfect for it.
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  5. #5
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    Here's a look at some of it -- that peak in the center of the frame and the smaller hump to the right are all in-bounds. This is part of the XC system.
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  6. #6
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    And some more, with Evans / Bierstadt in the background, and my dog Sam center stage...
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  7. #7
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    Put me down as a big "maybe".. I'm interested, just not sure if I'll be able to get there by 9am.

  8. #8
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    SWEET! We'll hang at the coffee shop for a few minutes after 9 before we ride up. I'll PM you my cell phone number, if you're close and you think you'll miss us, call and we'll arrange to hook up. Be sure to bring a bike with a granny gear, we're going up Virginia Canyon (Oh My God) road. It's not too steep for the most part, but there are some spots.
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  9. #9
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    Well, if you're reading this right now, then something got you out of bed at 3 in the morning, too. In my case, it was some kind of major plumbing malfunction in my basement that caused a huge leak, which I have just managed to get under control.

    Now I can't get back to sleep, so I'm just going to make some coffee and call it a morning.

    In any case, my Saturday plans (and probably Sunday, too) have now been considerably altered, as I have a ton of sopping, worthless old carpeting and padding to pull out, and probably a date with a plumber who works weekends.

    Anyway, if anyone was planning on heading up and meeting us this morning, e.g. Thump, I will not be attending due to the aforementioned aquatic disaster.

    And if anyone actually is a plumber who works weekends, PM me.
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  10. #10
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    Wow, that's odd -- my last post popped up like 5 times.

    Deleting multiple posts.
    Last edited by Manmountain Dense; 11-03-2007 at 03:28 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Deleting multiple posts.
    Last edited by Manmountain Dense; 11-03-2007 at 03:28 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Deleting multiple posts.
    Last edited by Manmountain Dense; 11-03-2007 at 03:27 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Deleting multiple posts.
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  14. #14
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    Would you stop repeating yourself?

    Any I think there are plenty who are interested it is just too short notice...
    Tact is for people not witty enough to be sarcastic...

  15. #15
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    Manages this land? It's not really managed, in any active sense. It's open space land that's part of a project that Clear Creek County and Idaho Springs started but never finished because they don't have money or people. It's been designated specifically for mountain bike trails (and some multi-use trails), and some locals, myself included, have been given permission by the city to build on it, so it's entirely up to us to design it, build it, map it, name it, mark it, etc. Or we could just blow it off and let it sit there and wait for someone else to do it...

    The city and county plotted out the open space boundaries and generated some proposed routes (see <a href="http://clearcreektrails.com/idaho_topo.html">this map</a>) but they don't make sense because of the fall lines and topography -- like "downhill trails" that have climbs on them, XC trails that go straight up steep grades and multi-use trails that cross DH/FR trails. So we need to find the best routes that make the best sense in terms of -- what can be ridden, what's safe, what's going to be sustainable, etc. Which is what we're doing tomorrow.

    It's entirely up to us -- grassroots style -- we build it, we ride it. The community is beginning to come around to the value of mountain biking for the economy, and the land is otherwise fallow, so our slave -- er, free labor is welcome. We hope that by doing this, the county will be more supportive in the future, help us access more land, maybe even give us a budget. HA!!! Right.

    You're welcome to come check it out.

    -EDIT- And by "entirely up to us - we build it, we ride it" - I mean mountain bikers in general, not "locals only" or anything like that. As in, since the county or city is not paying a dime to have these trails built, if we don't do it, no one will -- but if we do, then we can designate the trails as we see fit and build them in the order we prefer -- so while there will be multi-use trails open to hikers and equestrians, there will also be MTB-only trails, including "downhill traffic only" trails, with appropriate warning signs to keep hikers and horses off. Personally, I'm not a downhiller, but I see those trails as the star attraction over here -- the terrain up there is just perfect for it.
    Wow, that's interesting. I've never heard of any publicly owned land, be it city BLM or FS where they just let anyone have at it without any planning or approval. That's great though, if that is what they are letting folks do then do it! (edit to add): When i say no planning or approval, I mean with the trail plan that you come up with. Usually stuff like that has to go through lengthy review by planning staff approval by open space commissioners, town council, etc

    How big is the parcel you have to work with? For DH stuff do you have places for shuttle vehicles to park? What aspect are the trails generally, do they hold snow? What kinds of soils are predominate?

    Do you have a plan on laying out the trail corridors? Enough folks who have experience building sustainable trails, be they XC or DH or FR features? How about IMBA, have you been able to get or looked for any assistance from them? Have you done any fund raising?

    Sorry for all the questions. I've done a lot of this kind of work and I'd be glad to help you out if I have the time, (which in honesty I probably don't but I'd be glad to do what I can). I've built lots of XC trails from the planning and approval process to the field work but DH is not my thing although I support DH type trails in places where they can be sustainably built and it works with the overall management goals. It's pretty important to do them so they don't become an eroded mess, that means using hard surfaces as much as possible and armoring where needed. Like I said though, I'm not a DHer and if you aren't I'd encourage you to work with folks who have experience doing it right.

    Good luck and I hope it works out well!
    Last edited by zrm; 11-03-2007 at 06:52 AM.

  16. #16
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    Er, you weren't reading closely? There was planning. We have approval.


    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Wow, that's interesting. I've never heard of any publicly owned land, be it city BLM or FS where they just let anyone have at it without any planning or approval. That's great though, if that is what they are letting folks do then do it! (edit to add): When i say no planning or approval, I mean with the trail plan that you come up with. Usually stuff like that has to go through lengthy review by planning staff approval by open space commissioners, town council, etc

    How big is the parcel you have to work with? For DH stuff do you have places for shuttle vehicles to park? What aspect are the trails generally, do they hold snow? What kinds of soils are predominate?

    Do you have a plan on laying out the trail corridors? Enough folks who have experience building sustainable trails, be they XC or DH or FR features? How about IMBA, have you been able to get or looked for any assistance from them? Have you done any fund raising?

    Sorry for all the questions. I've done a lot of this kind of work and I'd be glad to help you out if I have the time, (which in honesty I probably don't but I'd be glad to do what I can). I've built lots of XC trails from the planning and approval process to the field work but DH is not my thing although I support DH type trails in places where they can be sustainably built and it works with the overall management goals. It's pretty important to do them so they don't become an eroded mess, that means using hard surfaces as much as possible and armoring where needed. Like I said though, I'm not a DHer and if you aren't I'd encourage you to work with folks who have experience doing it right.

    Good luck and I hope it works out well!
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kchri
    Would you stop repeating yourself?

    Any I think there are plenty who are interested it is just too short notice...
    My apologies on both counts. We didn't plan to do this particular recon until a couple days ago. Next time, I'll post sooner.

    We're cancelling this today altogether since I have to wait for the stupid plumber.
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  18. #18
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    Er, you weren't reading closely? There was planning. We have approval.
    Sorry, what I meant was, if I understand correctly, the town is just letting you design and build a trail system at your own initative on town propery after the original plan proposed by people who aren't expereince trail builders was found to be deficient. IE: " Our original plan wwasn't well thought out so why don't you do what you think is best and whatever you come up with is fine with us". If that's the case, it's pretty unusual in the wild and wacky world of government planning.
    I'm not trying to say there hasn't been planning or you don't have approval. I'm saying that when you say "It's been designated specifically for mountain bike trails (and some multi-use trails), and some locals, myself included, have been given permission by the city to build on it, so it's entirely up to us to design it, build it, map it, name it, mark it, etc."
    it sounds like you can do all that without review or approval of the plan you come up withand the trails you build. Maybe I'm misunderstanding that though. In my experience, it's pretty unusual for the powers that be to just let people loose to build trails on their own. Sounds like a good deal as long as it's done well though.

    Good luck!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    Well, if you're reading this right now, then something got you out of bed at 3 in the morning, too. In my case, it was some kind of major plumbing malfunction in my basement that caused a huge leak, which I have just managed to get under control.
    MD.. sorry to hear about that. I've been there before, except with a sewage main backup. At that point it's better to call your homeowners insurance company and let the mitigation experts take over. Good luck man, I feel for you.

    ZRM,
    I've never quite understood why some folks out here feel it takes a Ph.D to build sustainable trail? I've built plenty back in the midwest, which get substantially more moisture than here, that have held up to tons of traffic by just using a little common sense when it comes to erosion. This is the only state in the planet that seems to need 9 months of politics and BS to "plan" a trail, and then even still ends up with weekly user conflicts and having to drop in water bars 3 months later. I appreciate that similar to proper landscaping, there are some tricks to the trade, but some trail riding experience and common sense covers most of it. Experience will help avoid some common mistakes, but come on, what these guys are doing is a *good thing*.

  20. #20
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    I am definitely interested in helping out with this project. Just need a little more advance notice.

  21. #21
    zrm
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    Thump,

    I don't think I suggested anywhere in my post that trail building is brain surgery or took a PHD. I've built close to 30 miles of trail either by myself or as part of a crew so I know that all too well. It does, however, have to be done right, which means paying attention to grade, out slope, soil types, etc. I've seen too any trails that where "built" by nothing more than one set of tires following another through the woods down a game trail and they turn into deeply eroded, braided messes. Such trails do not endear mountain bikers to the folks making the decisions regarding public land use. I've spent a lot of time over the years undoing the damage done by people who either don't think about what they do on their bikes very well or just don't care. I'm not implying that this is the case with Manmontain Dense, it's just my experience in places I've lived.

    Nor do I think I implied Manmountain Dense didn't have the expertise to do a good job building trail, he may vary well do a great job, I asked if he had the resources to do the job correctly because I know very well what is involved in trail building, nothing more than that. I implied that building sustainable DH trail is a lot different than XC and if he didnít have experience then it might be a good idea to bring in someone who does. Not just from a sustainability point of view, but from a user experience point of view.

    Here in the west, or any where in the county for that matter if you want to build a trail or a road or anything else on Forest Service land, there are by law, a number of steps required. National parks land have their own set of regulations that once again, they are obligated by law to follow. State lands, be they State Forest or Parks have their own regulations that pertain to things like trail building that vary from state to state. Same goes with municipal or county owned lands, whether they are designated as open space or not, they will all have their own set of rules depending on what the management goals for that particular piece of land is. Some are very restrictive, and some are not. That's the way it is and personally, I'm OK with that.

    While you, or even I my look at the land and think it's best use is trails and recreation, the folks in charge of managing those lands most likely have a variety of mandates. They can range from wildlife, flora, and watershed protection, view corridor protection, commodity extraction, recreation, and so forth. I think it would be a mistake if it was legal for any and everyone to simply do what they wish with land, especially land held in common. Trails are great, I've built lots of trails and will build more in the future, but I don't think there should be trails on every mountain and in every valley.

    Being from the Midwest, where there isn't a lot of public land, you probably have a different experience as a lot of the riding is on private land, at least that is what I have found when I go back home to Indiana, so itís a different game, but here the rules are the rules (which IMO is a better thing than a free for all) and if you want to get anything done, youíd better understand them and know how to work within the system.

    I think itís great that the Town of Idaho Springs is giving mountain bikers such a long leash, at least thatís how Iím reading it, and it will behoove the guys doing the trails to do a great job and it sounds like they have a good grip on things. A good DH only set of trails with good shuttle access will be a good thing, hopefully it will reduce some of the conflicts that seem (if you believe some of the foam on some of the treads here on MTBR) to be occurring on the Front Range. Mountain biking is very popular here and giving folks to do the kind of riding they like is a good thing as long as it respects some other values for the land. Iím all for it. Hopefully MMD and CO will build a great system of trails, folks will come up to ride them and make a positive economic impact on the town and everyone will be happy, why do you think I feel otherwise?

  22. #22
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    I will definetly help on the dh/fr stuff...I got 20 community service hours i need to do to graduate from highschool too...think this would count lol? Even if it doesnt im still willing to help...I hvae alittle experience from building stuff in my back yard but thats about it.

  23. #23
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    I live in Idaho Springs... I will be able to help out quite a bit in the future. I also have some friends on WP's trail crew. They know a ton about sustainable trail building with proper drainage, etc... I'm sure they'd be down to dig and help build some trail. PM me with your contact info.

    Joel

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by joelalamo45
    I live in Idaho Springs... I will be able to help out quite a bit in the future. I also have some friends on WP's trail crew. They know a ton about sustainable trail building with proper drainage, etc... I'm sure they'd be down to dig and help build some trail. PM me with your contact info.

    Joel
    You live in Idaho? No kidding! I'm in Dumont. We should hook up sometime. I'll PM you.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Who manages the land? Has all this gone through th proper channels? (NEPA, if on FS, etc)
    Hi, please fill out your form 107409ZM, take a number and stand in line 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    ... Hopefully MMD and CO will build a great system of trails, folks will come up to ride them and make a positive economic impact on the town and everyone will be happy, why do you think I feel otherwise?
    Sorry zrm, I wasn't trying imply that you were against it, I would just caution that they *don't* get any more administrative parties involved than need be or invite further review and "planning". In the 5 years I've been here, the only thing that I've seen inviting more opinions to the table does is lead to more dumbed down, overly sanitized, boring assed snooze tracks through the forest. God forbid anything get's built that someone could actually fall on.

    This is a chance to get some actual FR/DH trails for the front range and they have permission from the landowners.. I would hope this starts getting built quickly without asking for too much professional advice. I think most of the FR/DH set around here would love to see some trails that have mandatory drops, gaps and rollers. Something that is not ridable or easily hikeable uphill so you don't have to worry about running over the Sierra Club or a lycra racer trying to get his "climb on". I fully support (both financially and philosophically) IMBA, BMA, etc, but my experience is if you bring them out to advise you'll end up with a trail that can be ridden in both directions, has "outs" for every feature and has removed every rock, tree and twig that someone could possibly run into; which ultimately means you'll have guys out there on 4" travel, 28 lbs bikes getting ran over by the "fullface" set going twice their speed and then coming on to mtbr to whine that some "out of control" DHer was bombing the trail irresponsibly. I personally can pass on hearing a decade of "Idaho Springs DH angst" threads.

    If these guys have passion, common sense and some willing labor I'll wager they'll come up with something more fun to actually ride than any local "expert".
    Last edited by thump; 11-04-2007 at 12:32 AM.

  26. #26
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Hi, please fill out your form 107409ZM, take a number and stand in line 3.


    Sorry zrm, I wasn't trying imply that you were against it, I would just caution that they *don't* get any more administrative parties involved than need be or invite further review and "planning". In the 5 years I've been here, the only thing that I've seen inviting more opinions to the table does is lead to more dumbed down, overly sanitized, boring assed snooze tracks through the forest. God forbid anything get's built that someone could actually fall on.

    This is a chance to get some actual FR/DH trails for the front range and they have permission from the landowners.. I would hope this starts getting built quickly without asking for too much professional advice. I think most of the FR/DH set around here would love to see some trails that have mandatory drops, gaps and rollers. Something that is not ridable or easily hikeable uphill so you don't have to worry about running over the Sierra Club or a lycra racer trying to get his "climb on". I fully support (both financially and philosophically) IMBA, BMA, etc, but my experience is if you bring them out to advise you'll end up with a trail that can be ridden in both directions, has "outs" for every feature and has removed every rock, tree and twig that someone could possibly run into; which ultimately means you'll have guys out there on 4" travel, 28 lbs bikes getting ran over by the "fullface" set going twice their speed and then coming on to mtbr to whine that some "out of control" DHer was bombing the trail irresponsibly. I personally can pass on hearing a decade of "Idaho Springs DH angst" threads.

    If these guys have passion, common sense and some willing labor I'll wager they'll come up with something more fun to actually ride than any local "expert".
    Hey, that's MISTER lycra racer , 28 pound (actually it's more like 26) 4" travel XC tree hugger guy to you!

    I think you might be surprised by how far the folks at IMBA and even the FS and some open space depts. have come in embracing DH only trails with challenging features. IMBA has some pretty sound trail building techniques for DH specific trails. Remember, the DH trails at Keystone where built under FS review and approval. I suppose from the hard core DH guy with DH specific equipment point of view, there is a long way to go but you have to look at it from the land managerís point of view also.

    They see way too many user created bandit trails, both DH and XC, that are deeply eroded which channel sediment into waterways (if you don't think waterways are seriously imperiled in CO think again), and are built without regard to other values the land might have (IE: wildlife habitat, private property, soils that can't support a certain type of trail, etc). A lot of these trails, because of the way they are built, get used for a few years then become so beat up that they get abandoned and a new trail springs up a short distance away. This is something I've seen for myself and it's not good for the sport.

    I think in the original post MMD mentioned he wasn't a big DH rider, if that's the case, then he shouldn't be the one designing DH specific trails. If he's like me, I wouldn't begin to assume I could build a trail that DHers will like and while Iíve built miles of XC trails (not all of it ďsanitaryĒ BTW) the building techniques to keep the trail from becoming a maintenance nightmare are beyond my experience. I would have no problem deferring to someone who has experience with building and managing that kind of trail. That's all I mean when I say it needs to be done right.

    Remember, it's the land owners who assume, regardless of the promises of volunteer organizations which come and go, the liabilities and maintenance responsibility for the trail, so from their point of view, a little oversight to make sure things are built right isn't a bad idea. That doesn't mean something has to be "sanitized", it just means it needs to be soundly built and well maintained. Now if you're talking about endless pointless delays I'll agree with you, but I think planners, at least the ones I've worked with, have come a long way in getting comfortable with what you need to remember, is a pretty new style of riding that requires a completely different kind of management.

    Things are changing, allbeit slowly, and the DH/FR community is at a balance point right now. It can either embrace the process, despite it's flaws, and continue to see an increase in legal, fun, challenging places to ride, or it can continue the path that includes poorly thought out bandit trails that create fights with land managers, environmental groups, and other users (including tree hugging, lycra wearing, XC racing, old school mountain bikers like me ). I think you'll find most of the folks who oppose the "bandit" aspect of DH/FR have no problem embracing and supporting expanded opportunities for that style of riding as long as it's done correctly and legally.

    I hope that the DH folks come together and work together with whoever necessary to make it happen. If it comes together it will be a good example that this type of riding can exsist peacefully with those whom it has been in conflict with in the past and I'm all for that!

  27. #27
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    Well, gee, thanks for the advice, ZRM, but in fairness, you really have no idea of any of the background of this project, so please refrain from the assumptions.

    The city and county instigated this project, not us. The map we're working from has existed for a couple years now, and was developed with input from the IMBA, the city, the county, and others. The land is a designated open space recreation area that they want to build trails on. The DH/FR trails appear on THEIR map -- they were not our idea -- as evidenced by the climbs that appear in the middle of their proposed "DH" routes. Which is why we need to refine those routes just a tad.

    If it was up to me, we'd build technical XC/AM trails. But the problem is, this terrain isn't really right for them, due to the steepness and also due to the limitations of the open space boundaries. The XC trails are going to be the biggest challenge. The hiking-oriented trails will be a bit easier. But the DH trails will practically build themselves, once we find the right lines. Fortunately, we have recruited the assistance of a very experienced builder, and we've got some really hot ideas for making them work.

    But unlike, say, Jeffco or Summit, CCC doesn't have the money to invest in this kind of project, to hire workers, buy/rent equipment, etc. This is not a wealthy county. So we saw an opportunity to offer up our labor to do something that would be good for mountain bikers, and good for the community.

    We are simply picking up where the local government has left off. They planned this a couple years ago, but it went no further than that -- "Here's what we want to do, and here's a nice map of it." If this was happening 20 miles to the east, it probably would have been built already, like Centennial Cone was. But instead, it's up to us.

    The primary mover behind our effort has been here 30+ years, and he knows all the ins and outs of local government. He's helped build some really sweet trails in the area. He saw this map, recognized the opportunity, and realized that the city/county would never get it done.

    So basically, we said to the city and said -- if you want this done, we're willing to do it. Thanks to the the goodwill my buddy garnered from some other volunteer work, and some positive coverage he got in the press, we were given the nod. So now we need to get to work.

    This is, of course, the Reader's Digest version of the story, but that's the gist. Are there still some hurdles for us to clear? Yes, but we think they're not going to be anything we can't handle, and certainly nothing we need to discuss here.

    But I don't see why I need to justify any of this to anyone on this forum -- frankly, if you want to come out and help, then grab a shovel, son. Otherwise, if you have suggestions, contact me privately and we can talk. The last thing we need is negative energy.
    Never rub another man's rhubarb.

  28. #28
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    Well, gee, thanks for the advice, ZRM, but in fairness, you really have no idea of any of the background of this project, so please refrain from the assumptions.

    The city and county instigated this project, not us. The map we're working from has existed for a couple years now, and was developed with input from the IMBA, the city, the county, and others. The land is a designated open space recreation area that they want to build trails on. The DH/FR trails appear on THEIR map -- they were not our idea -- as evidenced by the climbs that appear in the middle of their proposed "DH" routes. Which is why we need to refine those routes just a tad.

    If it was up to me, we'd build technical XC/AM trails. But the problem is, this terrain isn't really right for them, due to the steepness and also due to the limitations of the open space boundaries. The XC trails are going to be the biggest challenge. The hiking-oriented trails will be a bit easier. But the DH trails will practically build themselves, once we find the right lines. Fortunately, we have recruited the assistance of a very experienced builder, and we've got some really hot ideas for making them work.

    But unlike, say, Jeffco or Summit, CCC doesn't have the money to invest in this kind of project, to hire workers, buy/rent equipment, etc. This is not a wealthy county. So we saw an opportunity to offer up our labor to do something that would be good for mountain bikers, and good for the community.

    We are simply picking up where the local government has left off. They planned this a couple years ago, but it went no further than that -- "Here's what we want to do, and here's a nice map of it." If this was happening 20 miles to the east, it probably would have been built already, like Centennial Cone was. But instead, it's up to us.

    The primary mover behind our effort has been here 30+ years, and he knows all the ins and outs of local government. He's helped build some really sweet trails in the area. He saw this map, recognized the opportunity, and realized that the city/county would never get it done.

    So basically, we said to the city and said -- if you want this done, we're willing to do it. Thanks to the the goodwill my buddy garnered from some other volunteer work, and some positive coverage he got in the press, we were given the nod. So now we need to get to work.

    This is, of course, the Reader's Digest version of the story, but that's the gist. Are there still some hurdles for us to clear? Yes, but we think they're not going to be anything we can't handle, and certainly nothing we need to discuss here.

    But I don't see why I need to justify any of this to anyone on this forum -- frankly, if you want to come out and help, then grab a shovel, son. Otherwise, if you have suggestions, contact me privately and we can talk. The last thing we need is negative energy.
    OK, last post on this unless it's a PM to offer to help.

    My first post was one of genuine interest in how other communites go about things like trail building becuase learning what is going on elsewhere can help in other places. Due to my lack of internet savy, it turned into a more general discussion that I was trying to keep good natured and informative about the political process of trail building with Thump based on my experience. I was trying to not assume anything. Apoligies if you felt disrespected, that wasn't my intention.
    Thanks for the background on the project which is what I was curious about in the first place. It's an interesting read. It shows the point that I was trying to make, maybe not very well with Thump that there are usually many months or years of "off site" work with all kinds of twists and turns that goes into trail building. It sounds like you guys have the potintial for a great thing and have some good expertise lined up, Good luck and keep up the pasion!

  29. #29
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    Mister zrm ,
    I do understand and respect what you're saying, it just always seemed a little silly that it takes soooo long to debate over what is, at the end of the day, still a beaten track of dirt through the woods. I could get plans, zoning, permits and finish construction on a moderate sized hotel quicker than some of these folks can figure out a trail.

    In this case I'm simply taking MD at his word that they have the needed permissions, and with that, hoping these get built before the fun police get invited to the party and turn this into more of the same dumbed down bunny slopes that we already have covering most the Front Range.

    In any event, I've got my shovel ready..

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Mister zrm ,
    I do understand and respect what you're saying, it just always seemed a little silly that it takes soooo long to debate over what is, at the end of the day, still a beaten track of dirt through the woods. I could get plans, zoning, permits and finish construction on a moderate sized hotel quicker than some of these folks can figure out a trail.

    In this case I'm simply taking MD at his word that they have the needed permissions, and with that, hoping these get built before the fun police get invited to the party and turn this into more of the same dumbed down bunny slopes that we already have covering most the Front Range.

    In any event, I've got my shovel ready..
    Well, as far as I know, we have permission to do at least what we planned on doing yesterday. I'm certain we're going to need to get final approval of the routes we propose, which is why, right now, we're hiking and bushwacking and plotting out the lines. Which was the original purpose of this thread -- to invite people to come see the terrain, so hopefully (I hope I hope) they'll get stoked and come help us build it. Because when the time comes to build, we're going to need volunteer manpower.

    Yes, this is a unique situation, a little out of the ordinary, but the nice thing is that the city/county began this of their own volition, so we're not trying to convince them to do something they weren't planning to do already. Heck, their plans are really ambitious -- parking lots, picnic areas with shelters, scenic overlooks, etc. Only they don't have the resources to pull this off, and the county has other budgetary and bureaucratic priorities, so from what we can tell, it's kind of fallen off the radar. Which is where we came in.

    We kind of stumbled on this opportunity, and I was pretty skeptical at first, but all indications are that it's a go. Of course, like anything in life, I'm certain it won't come off without a hitch. Fingers crossed...

    Anyway, thanks Thump, and everyone, for the support. And ZRM, no hard feelings, bro.
    Never rub another man's rhubarb.

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