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  1. #1
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    Hall Ranch Update

    I think I'm going crazy because I haven't been out in over a week. Due to my addiction and needing a fix, I opened the shop late today so I could at least get 45 minutes on the bike. Well, I was out for 45 but the ride didn't pan out. Good reason, though, as I ran into County Open Space staff at Hall ranch.



    Previous posters are right, Hall is a mess right now. It was frozen when I was there so conditions were prime. With the absence of added moisture, conditions should be soft but acceptable for the rock garden. It's a mess because there are sections where the trail is 10+ feet wide. Antelope is a sheet of ice and will continue to be so for some time.



    I talked with the county guy about maintenance and the new "reroute" at the bottom of the rock garden, more specifically, the positioning of the rocks. They are going to look at redoing some of the rocks to A) make them less prone to t-boning and B) help to imrove general flow.


    They've also temporarily placed orange cones to keep folks on the trail. They will make it up in the next day or 2 with some equipment to regrade out the ruts on the lower part of the trail. They don't care if you ride when it's moderately soft and a little muddy, but they do care that you stay on trail. I didn't ride in very far. My estimates of trail conditions are based on feedback from county crew workers.

    another descriptive pic

    I was pretty surprised at the conditions. I haven't ridden off road in about a month. It was good to get out but sad to see what has transpired.
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  2. #2
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    Hmmm.... Looks like road construction blues just like in summer!
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  3. #3
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    Ugh. That is worse than I expected. This makes me want to just go out and sit on the trail and yell at people who won't wait for the mud to dry but won't stay on trail.

    Thanks for the update Dave.

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    To be fair, people were taking "short cuts" through those curves from the moment they were put in, well before the mud. From my understanding, it was people going faster than they were able to control.
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    Ah, touche Pabs. I agree - much of it has to do with the trail redesign and user speeds. Again, the rock placement wouldn't be a big issues if more folks would ride within their means of control. They do have to manage for lowest common denominator, though... I talked to them about shortcutting as well and pointed out 3 specific areas where it was exactly as you mention. That Hall reroute is a work in progress. They are looking to keep tweaking it to get it to the point where it works. We'll see how it goes.
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    Nice there's enough room to cut some cool berms in. It's too bad- it's been 3 weeks since I've checked out hall or picture rock. It'll be interesting to see how P-rock fared with the closure.
    Pueblo's not the only place. Left Hand OHV is good too if you have to get your fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    Ah, touche Pabs. I agree - much of it has to do with the trail redesign and user speeds. Again, the rock placement wouldn't be a big issues if more folks would ride within their means of control. They do have to manage for lowest common denominator, though... I talked to them about shortcutting as well and pointed out 3 specific areas where it was exactly as you mention. That Hall reroute is a work in progress. They are looking to keep tweaking it to get it to the point where it works. We'll see how it goes.

    Dave,

    Are they still thinking about rerouting the rock garden. I remember a couple years ago their was a discussion that it was a possiblity.

    Erik

  8. #8
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    I think it's still a possibility and they still talk about it, Erik, but I don't think they have the time or the budget for it. I think it's officially backburnered.

    Just had a rider stop in from riding Hall in the warmth of the day. He was looking for a bike wash if that says anything. He mentioned that the frontside rock garden was great, but around the top bench and beyond was super mud.
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    Interesting about the rocks on the lower section, I sure would hate to hit one of those going fast. It would be nice if people could be discouraged from riding outside of the lines but without such extreme consequences... maybe some nice berms to aim for, carrot instead of stick? Guess it wouldn't help with the mud bypass crowd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    I think it's still a possibility and they still talk about it, Erik, but I don't think they have the time or the budget for it. I think it's officially backburnered.

    Just had a rider stop in from riding Hall in the warmth of the day. He was looking for a bike wash if that says anything. He mentioned that the frontside rock garden was great, but around the top bench and beyond was super mud.

    Good,

    I know a couple of section need to by "filled" in due to erosion, but I really like this route. The up step in the middle has gotten real big for lower bottom bracket bikes and a couple of section contiue to get wash out but i think that even makes it more fun.

    Erik

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    The problem I see with the work done on the lower section is it isn't always obvious which side of the rocks you are supposed to go on. After the work was done all that bare dirt made it look like the trail was 6-7-8 feet wide and placing a big rock every 10 feet isn't adequate to define the corridor. Straw blows away and re-seeding takes too long. Pulling in brush and deadfall to cover the bare dirt outside the corridor may have prevented this.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider
    The problem I see with the work done on the lower section is it isn't always obvious which side of the rocks you are supposed to go on. After the work was done all that bare dirt made it look like the trail was 6-7-8 feet wide and placing a big rock every 10 feet isn't adequate to define the corridor. Straw blows away and re-seeding takes too long. Pulling in brush and deadfall to cover the bare dirt outside the corridor may have prevented this.
    Maybe, but I doubt it. I see people riding faster than their reaction time a lot. Almost exclusively, based on my own observations, it's people on full suspension rigs pretending they are trailblazing in the wilderness in a freeride video and/or Steve Peat in a World Cup. Ok, so I can only speculate as to their inner thoughts, but it's always been people on FS rigs. I see them ride off trail where the trail is well defined and pretty much anywhere there is a curve.

    As to the area of concern, at least when I was there, it was pretty obvious where you were supposed to ride, even after numerous people had cut corners.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider
    The problem I see with the work done on the lower section is it isn't always obvious which side of the rocks you are supposed to go on. After the work was done all that bare dirt made it look like the trail was 6-7-8 feet wide and placing a big rock every 10 feet isn't adequate to define the corridor. Straw blows away and re-seeding takes too long. Pulling in brush and deadfall to cover the bare dirt outside the corridor may have prevented this.

    I agree, the lower section was a failure. It doesn't flow, the entrance to one of the sections is routed straight into a 3" tall rock you could easily just ride over (so many did), others are safety hazards, no berms, no common sense. It looks like a 20 foot wide dirt road with random boulders placed in it. And yes, I'm willing to help build.

    We got out on a cool, overcast day a few weeks ago and rode up to the loop. By the time we got past the rockgarden on the way back down it had thawed a bit too much, but if you ride through the mud it's only helping make the trail rockier and more fun. A few people rode off trail, but 95% looked like they weren't, with the exception of the new lower section.

    Ginny is rideable too, but will also have muddy spots when it's thawed out.
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    I've been hiking. Waaay different...non-destructive. (and boring )
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    Maybe, but I doubt it. I see people riding faster than their reaction time a lot. Almost exclusively, based on my own observations, it's people on full suspension rigs pretending they are trailblazing in the wilderness in a freeride video and/or Steve Peat in a World Cup. Ok, so I can only speculate as to their inner thoughts, but it's always been people on FS rigs. I see them ride off trail where the trail is well defined and pretty much anywhere there is a curve.

    As to the area of concern, at least when I was there, it was pretty obvious where you were supposed to ride, even after numerous people had cut corners.
    Wow! I ride a full suspension bike and I obey the etiquette of the trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    Maybe, but I doubt it. I see people riding faster than their reaction time a lot. Almost exclusively, based on my own observations, it's people on full suspension rigs pretending they are trailblazing in the wilderness in a freeride video and/or Steve Peat in a World Cup. Ok, so I can only speculate as to their inner thoughts, but it's always been people on FS rigs. I see them ride off trail where the trail is well defined and pretty much anywhere there is a curve.
    Wanna know how many times I've seen rigid bikes go around stuff that's too techy? (up and down)

    It's experience level, Pablo. Dont paint with such a big brush.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    it's people on full suspension rigs pretending they are trailblazing in the wilderness in a freeride video and/or Steve Peat in a World Cup.

    That's EXACTLY how I roll, beyotch
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  18. #18
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    As with most things I think its the few bad apples that cause the obvious indescresions (going off trail, doing unauthorized trail "maintenance", going too fast for their skill level, being a**holes). And fortunately I think this board (at the least the main posters) aren't those bad apples.

    It is hard to ride the close in trails durring these times cause I see "my" trail being treated like a death camp inmate. I must be narrow minded because I can't see the bennefit of riding off trail to cut a corrner. Or avoiding a small rock after riding the entire rock garden at Hall.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider
    The problem I see with the work done on the lower section is it isn't always obvious which side of the rocks you are supposed to go on. After the work was done all that bare dirt made it look like the trail was 6-7-8 feet wide and placing a big rock every 10 feet isn't adequate to define the corridor. Straw blows away and re-seeding takes too long. Pulling in brush and deadfall to cover the bare dirt outside the corridor may have prevented this.
    I really can't believe I'm the first one to ask this:

    Can this trail be shuttled? I'll mount my mud tires if necessary.

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    Damn Pabs - them's fightin words. I'd think the majority of Front Range riders ride full-squish these days.

    Saying the riders on full-squish bikes are the ones causing all the trouble is equivalent to saying all alcoholics are people who drink. Of course people on full suspension are the ones riding out of control. They're also the ones staying in control...because full-suspension riders are just about everybody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113
    That's EXACTLY how I roll, beyotch
    +1 for me...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest3070
    Can this trail be shuttled? I'll mount my mud tires if necessary.
    nope
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    nope
    Whew.. Why Boulder County Rocks.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    Maybe, but I doubt it. I see people riding faster than their reaction time a lot. Almost exclusively, based on my own observations, it's people on full suspension rigs pretending they are trailblazing in the wilderness in a freeride video and/or Steve Peat in a World Cup. Ok, so I can only speculate as to their inner thoughts, but it's always been people on FS rigs. I see them ride off trail where the trail is well defined and pretty much anywhere there is a curve.

    As to the area of concern, at least when I was there, it was pretty obvious where you were supposed to ride, even after numerous people had cut corners.


    I resent that comment. I'm always at Hall coming down the rock garden out of control on my SS 29 Hardtail. I want a little noteworthiness here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    Maybe, but I doubt it. I see people riding faster than their reaction time a lot. Almost exclusively, based on my own observations, it's people on full suspension rigs pretending they are trailblazing in the wilderness in a freeride video and/or Steve Peat in a World Cup. Ok, so I can only speculate as to their inner thoughts, but it's always been people on FS rigs. I see them ride off trail where the trail is well defined and pretty much anywhere there is a curve.

    As to the area of concern, at least when I was there, it was pretty obvious where you were supposed to ride, even after numerous people had cut corners.


    I resent that comment. I'm always at Hall coming down the rock garden out of control on my SS 29 Hardtail. I want a little noteworthiness here...

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    He took the cheater line in the 1st pic. The real line is just to the left in the 2nd shot of the sequence.
    .




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    But he cleared the keystone, which is twice as hard as the the "real line". The pictures don't do that section justice.

    Erik

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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    Wanna know how many times I've seen rigid bikes go around stuff that's too techy? (up and down)

    It's experience level, Pablo. Dont paint with such a big brush.
    Not to mention the overwhelming preponderance of FS rigs these days. Most bikes riding Hall probably are FS. Pabs' observations are misleading. Might as well say that almost all the bikes blowing through that corner have handlebars, or have tires.
    And why does it have to be about the type of bikes anyway? How about a little responsibility where it belongs: on the rider. If someone is riding like a jerk his/her bike has very little to do with it. It's all about the individual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    It's experience level, Pablo. Dont paint with such a big brush.
    There was no paintin' goin' on. I did not say all or most FS riders are sinners or all or most rigid riders are saints. When I see a rider, I do not assume they will ride one way or another based on the bike choise. I was just stating my personal observations.

    I personally have not seen rigid bikes go around stuff that's too techy. However, if that's your personal observation, I respect that.
    Last edited by Pabs; 01-27-2010 at 07:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by subliminalshiver
    Pabs' observations are misleading. . . . If someone is riding like a jerk his/her bike has very little to do with it. It's all about the individual.
    I agree it's about the individual, but I don't see how my "observations are misleading." I've seen what I've seen.

    My observation concerned people riding faster than their reactions. When it comes to riding faster than a rider's reaction times, FS bikes present a unique problem becasue a FS bike allows a rider to go much faster, and sometimes, beyond the riders reaction time and skill level would otherwise permit, consequently, they cannot make certain turns. Based on my observations, this is less a problem for rigid riders and hardtail riders. However, I'm sure they act like jerks in other respects. Neverthless, I was not speaking more generally about people riding like jerks. Lots of people ride like jerks and the type of bike they ride has little to do with it.
    Last edited by Pabs; 01-27-2010 at 08:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleSpeed
    Damn Pabs - them's fightin words. I'd think the majority of Front Range riders ride full-squish these days.

    Saying the riders on full-squish bikes are the ones causing all the trouble is equivalent to saying all alcoholics are people who drink. Of course people on full suspension are the ones riding out of control. They're also the ones staying in control...because full-suspension riders are just about everybody.
    Try re-reading what I wrote. I did not state "riders on full-squish bikes are the ones causing all the trouble." My observation was limited to "I see people riding faster than their reaction time a lot," which in my experience and based on my personal observations, has been FS riders. A FS bike allows riders to go a lot faster. Other riders are causing trouble as well, no doubt, but my comment was not about those riders.

    Nevertheless, what's the point of the interwebs if it's not to exercise the First Amendment freedom of opinions?
    Last edited by Pabs; 01-27-2010 at 07:51 AM.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedell99
    But he cleared the keystone, which is twice as hard as the the "real line". The pictures don't do that section justice.

    Erik

    Eh, the "keystone" switchback is easy once you have the line down. Going left up the big step is far more difficult because you either have to crank up the steep part of the rock right after the step (not too bad with the right bike, or if you're strong. WKD-RDR climbed that line on my 42 lb Uzzi), or make an immediate left and pedal through a bunch of rocks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    There was no paintin' goin' on. I did not say all or most FS riders are sinners or.....
    Ahem, I beg to differ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    I see people riding faster than their reaction time a lot. Almost exclusively, based on my own observations, it's people on full suspension rigs....
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113
    He took the cheater line in the 1st pic. The real line is just to the left in the 2nd shot of the sequence.
    Good observation. I don't remember that right line even being there 4 years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    Ahem, I beg to differ...
    Beg all you want. I have seen what I have seen. I did not "paint" because I did not make a larger pronouncement or state that all or most FS riders are one way or another based upon said observations. I was just staing my observaitons. Based upon the apparent consensus of this forum, I should just pretend that the people I have generally seen ride too fast and out of control are on FS bikes because that's just not PC. Good try, though.
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    FWIW, this guy cleaned ALL the rock garden his first time up. I made him redo some of the ones I have a problem with when I caught up to him. Not that you all don't clean the entire rock garden at once but I never have.

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    Dave, I have taken all the lines in the first pic. It definetly is hard, but Keystone is the only section I have not cleared yet. I just can do it for some reason. It pains me watching someone do it so easily.

    XCguy,

    Are you saying he did everything the first time up without stopping or did he redo a section?

    Erik

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    the people I have generally seen ride too fast and out of control are on FS bikes.
    As stated by others, that is because that's the general bike that is out there.
    I'd be willing to bet that proportionally its much closer to equal, but your obvious resentment of Steve Peat wannabees affects your judgement.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    I'd be willing to bet that proportionally its much closer to equal, but your obvious resentment of Steve Peat wannabees affects your judgement.
    The proportionality is possible, although it does not square with my personal observations and the fact that you can simply go way faster on a FS. But a good point nonetheless.

    As for the Steve Peat comment, I have no resentment. I just like to throw rocks at sacred cows. I added the Peaty reference to simply throw fuel on the fire. I find Steve Peat wannabes silly, I find Lance wannabes silly, I even find my own actions silly and nonsensical. It's an absurd world in which we live.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    As stated by others, that is because that's the general bike that is out there.
    I'd be willing to bet that proportionally its much closer to equal, but your obvious resentment of Steve Peat wannabees affects your judgement.

    At my current rate of progression, I will have more WC wins than Steve Peat by the time I'm 137 years old.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    Good observation. I don't remember that right line even being there 4 years ago.
    We built that line at a National Trails Day back in '04. Here's a write up of the whats and whys. A lot of what we did 6 years ago has already washed out, eroded, or changed in other ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedell99
    Dave, I have taken all the lines in the first pic. It definetly is hard, but Keystone is the only section I have not cleared yet. I just can do it for some reason. It pains me watching someone do it so easily.

    Try starting the turn towards the keystone as with your bike as far over to the left as possible and start your turn late so you're not in the middle of a sharp turn when you hit the obstacle. As soon as you start your turn, look at the line through the obstacle and accelerate through it. It's all about getting the bike in the right position.

    The move in the first pic requires more strength and technical skill, if you can do that, you'll have no problem with the keystone if your line through it is ok.
    .




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    Quote Originally Posted by bedell99
    Dave, I have taken all the lines in the first pic. It definetly is hard, but Keystone is the only section I have not cleared yet. I just can do it for some reason. It pains me watching someone do it so easily.

    XCguy,

    Are you saying he did everything the first time up without stopping or did he redo a section?

    Erik
    The rider is nybike1971. He's one of those absurdly strong riders to whom everything is easy. I didn't personally witness his clearing everything but he was with his equally strong wife and I was way behind. I have no reason to doubt what he says. I know you've all seen riders like this, they On Sight the toughest moves like nothing. When I asked him to go over a section so's I could take pics, he'd just go back to the start of that section and clean it, no prob. Sections that I've maybe cleared once or twice in years.
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113
    Try starting the turn towards the keystone as with your bike as far over to the left as possible and start your turn late so you're not in the middle of a sharp turn when you hit the obstacle. As soon as you start your turn, look at the line through the obstacle and accelerate through it. It's all about getting the bike in the right position.

    The move in the first pic requires more strength and technical skill, if you can do that, you'll have no problem with the keystone if your line through it is ok.
    That's wierd, I've cleaned that first section tons of times, but I've never made the keystone move. So going over the rocks to the left or right is easier? I might have to try that.

  46. #46
    Oh, So Interesting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansible
    So going over the rocks to the left or right is easier? I might have to try that.
    No, go right through the gap in the rocks. The key is to initiate the turn at the right place, so you've completed over 90 degrees of turning before you arrive at the obstacle. This lines you up with the trail better and positions your bike so it's not as much of a step up through the gap. Then look through the gap as you turn, put in a pedal stroke, ratchet your pedals backwards for clearance if needed, and pedal right through.

    I can only tell you this because I struggled with it for a long time. I still can't get it 100% of the time. It's easy to get the line wrong, lose balance through the turn, hit your pedal on a rock, etc.... but when you get it right it doesn't seem that difficult.

    .




    Strava: turn off your dork logger when you're not on sanctioned trails.

  47. #47
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    ^^^ best diagram evar!
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  48. #48
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    I was thinking that, too. Good job, Dave It's the line I try to take. I make it about 75% of the time anymore.
    Redstone Cyclery
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113
    No, go right through the gap in the rocks. The key is to initiate the turn at the right place, so you've completed over 90 degrees of turning before you arrive at the obstacle. This lines you up with the trail better and positions your bike so it's not as much of a step up through the gap. Then look through the gap as you turn, put in a pedal stroke, ratchet your pedals backwards for clearance if needed, and pedal right through.

    I can only tell you this because I struggled with it for a long time. I still can't get it 100% of the time. It's easy to get the line wrong, lose balance through the turn, hit your pedal on a rock, etc.... but when you get it right it doesn't seem that difficult.


    Dude, you missed your calling. You really need to be teaching Elem. School Art

    Good drawing and description. That is the only thing I have not consistently cleaned on the Rock Garden.
    Astigmatic Visionary

  50. #50
    not actually bad :)
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    With a lot of people sounding like they struggle on keystone - I don't feel quite as bad being 0 for 2 last fall attempting it with Full Trucker and Kosayno.
    Doesn't look that difficult.
    I tried a wide line, but couldn't swing it quite wide enough.
    I'll get it next time - but that may be years!
    Of course, we had so much fun there that I will probably force myself back this spring!
    Old Codger

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