Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 98
  1. #1
    contains quinine
    Reputation: Debaser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,583

    The Future of Colorado

    Orange and dead.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  2. #2
    skillz to pay billz
    Reputation: nOOby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,556
    it's so sad, I was up in vail/beaver creek today and it's just depressing. Came back to ned and hoped that something will stop the inevitable.

  3. #3
    skillz to pay billz
    Reputation: nOOby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,556
    its going to suck big time for a while but there's always the aspen trees.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Pau11y's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,240
    This can prove a boom for CO's renewable energy efforts...cellulosic ethanol...if those environmentalist morons can get their heads out of a$$ and not prevent companies from going in to clear out the standing dead (and replant) before it all burns up. If it goes up, western slope of CO = hell on earth. If this scenario happens, every environmentalist who faught against the clearning should be forced to help in the fire fighting effort(s)!

  5. #5
    skillz to pay billz
    Reputation: nOOby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,556
    there will certainly be some huge fires, not a question of if...

    what is the enviro argument about not clearing? I haven't seen any reports on this.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Pau11y's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,240
    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    there will certainly be some huge fires, not a question of if...

    what is the enviro argument about not clearing? I haven't seen any reports on this.
    You should do some reading about the Blowdown in Zirkel Wilderness Area and (well, this was, I think, a BLM decision...but I think it was influenced by the enviros) the amount of trees/raw fuel and the resulting fires.

    Edit: Doh, I may have confused my understanding of enviros and endangered spcies (Spotted Owls being key example) habitat w/ logging, and salvo logging. My bad...
    Last edited by Pau11y; 08-02-2008 at 10:54 PM.

  7. #7
    Thread Terrorist
    Reputation: IndecentExposure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,837
    and Sunday afternoon traffic still gets worse! ugh!

  8. #8
    zrm
    zrm is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,358
    It's a natural dynamic process that is a result of total clear cutting during the mining and logging era followed by total suppression of fire. The situation is simply part of the constantly changing face of nature. Insect infestation, fire, storm blowdown and other process's all have a vital role to play in maintaining a healthy balance of types of plant and animal species. It's only when humans enter the equation with their perceptions, expectations and needs that are contrary to those natural processes that what is natural becomes a problem.

    Most of the beetle killed lodgepole are of limited market value for lumber (the best timber for the lumber market was cut long ago and grows back very slowly at these altitudes) and that market is totally saturated. A great deal of beetle kill, contrary to what Paul11y has posted, have been cut and hauled away. So much so that there is little market for the vast majority of it and a great deal of what has been cut is being mulched. So many millions of board feet have been cut that lots of smart people as of yet haven't been able to come up with a way to keep a good portion of this wood out of land fills.

    Cellulosic ethanol presently has many hurdles before it is a practical feed stock for fuel. There has been some talk of using it as feed stock for bio mass boilers to generate electricity but that has its own set of issues. There is only so much of a market for poor quality lumber stock, pole barns, buck rail fences, and firewood.

    Even if a viable market could be found for beetle kill lodge pole, removing the dead trees on a scale matched to their numbers creates its own set of problems. When trees die and fall, the decomposition process is a vital part of creating soil. Fire also plays a vital role in returning nutrients to the soil and jump starting the process of regeneration. Trees on the ground help slow down soil erosion and provide conditions for insects to break down the wood into nutrients. Blowdown also provides habitat for many animals such as rodents and other small mammals that dig in the soil and further help create favorable conditions for new growth.

    Nature takes care of itself, just not on a time line that fits human expectations. The Forest Service, the BLM, and mountain municipalities all know that we cannot cut or spray our way out of the problem. The best we can do is create defensible space around the urban interface and accept nature for what it is - not always neat and not always subservient to humans needs and desires.

    For mountain bikers it means dead trees will fall onto trails and we'll need to spend more time cutting out trees. A pain in the a** to be sure, and there is probably somewhat of an off chance of being in the wrong place at the wrong time when a tree falls. Of course there is also the asthetic of what was formerly green now being reddish brown, but that it's a matter of our expectations. If we can re-adjust those expectations, we'll be OK in the long run.
    Last edited by zrm; 08-03-2008 at 07:13 AM.

  9. #9
    I Crash Often
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    442
    I'm going to stand out on a (dead) limb and say that this is natural and it will take care of itself. It seems as though the forest is unhealthy (to many trees) and is doing it's own selective clearing. I'm sure this isn't the first time it has happened and wont' be the last. What sucks is that people is the fact that we build well into the forest, areas now prone to large, devistating fires. I peronsally believe it will take a catostrophic fire or a SEVERE winter to kill the beetles. After that happnes, wait 50-100 years and a new, healthy forest will be instore.

    This is just a guess.

  10. #10
    feel the Force
    Reputation: mtbjedi1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    546
    Well said.
    A punctured bicycle
    on a hillside desolate,
    will nature make a man of me yet...
    -Morrissey

  11. #11
    Gaa-zee-raaaa!
    Reputation: Godzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,437
    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    its going to suck big time for a while but there's always the aspen trees.
    We have land off of Crow Hill, outside Bailey - most of it was cleared by the Snaking Fire in '02. I don't know what the land looked like before the fire (we bought in '05), but the Aspens are starting to come back in force and it's beautiful up there - very park-like with the remaining well spaced 100' tall pines and "new" Aspen groves popping up all over the place. I can't wait to see how it looks in 5 years.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Now with more vitriol!

  12. #12
    Shattering Glass
    Reputation: dash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    707
    Then let it burn along with the hideous real estate that is encroaching on our trails. I'll bring the marshmallows..

  13. #13
    Oh, So Interesting!
    Reputation: davec113's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    4,113
    Good. Something needed to happen to restore healthy forests.

    BTW, this started years ago in NM...
    .




    Strava: turn off your dork logger when you're not on sanctioned trails.

  14. #14
    giddy up
    Reputation: papawheelie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    275
    It'll burn, damn right about that. Well said ZRM, makes total sense. Its seems odd that with all the research that is done, no one (at least that I know of) didn't forsee something like this possibly happen and somehow try to prevent it. We had to have Colorado's largest wild fire before people starting agreeing to forest thinning etc. I know its easy to say but it really is a shame and who knows if anything could have been done anyway. Regardless, nature will take care of the problem.

    There is one company that I know of that has been given permission to clear cut some of these trees and they use them to make cabinets and other interior furniture. The stuff is absolutely beautiful and of course very expensive. I do think they are working on ways to prepare this wood so that it can be used for exterior construction. We'll see.

    Very interesting topic.
    Rub n Tiz'zug

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,405
    So they haven't really figured out a way to stop these beetles yet? We can scoop up dirt from Mars but no solution to these beetles? The impact is massive. I can hardly believe the sections of forests that have been ruined.

    I heard they were working on some butterfly of something (maybe in Aspen) that was a natural predator to these beetles but I have not heard else anything about it for a year.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Pau11y's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,240
    zrm is right, there are issues w/ a lot of the renewable tech today. The reason why I brought up cellulosic ethanol is specifically for the fact that the wood is commercially crap (altho papawheelie pointed to some niche market use for it). However, wood is wood as far as cellulose content so why not make alt. fuel w/ it instead of stuffing it in landfills? I'm not sure about the process in its entirety...if the nutrients held in the wood is destroyed in the conversion process of cellulose to alcohol...have to defer to zrm for this. But if not, it might be recoverable by putting the waste of the process back into the forest, reconstituting the soil...
    zrm: thoughts?

  17. #17
    skillz to pay billz
    Reputation: nOOby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,556
    while this is natures way of taking care of the problem(human caused, logging and fire suppression) it certainly shouldn't be confused with the natural evolution of these forrests. Healthy forests are thinned by wildfires and have trees of varying sizes and ages that fight infestation.

    The devastating fires that happen lately are not the answer either as they burn too hot and scorch the earth, leaving very little fertile soil for regrowth

  18. #18
    Human Crayon
    Reputation: sleestak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    244
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    I heard they were working on some butterfly of something (maybe in Aspen) that was a natural predator to these beetles but I have not heard else anything about it for a year.

    That sounds scary. Not a huge fan on tampering with nature to try to "fix" it.
    ..:: sleestak ::..
    [SIZE] Matters [/SIZE]

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Pau11y's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,240
    Quote Originally Posted by sleestak
    That sounds scary. Not a huge fan on tampering with nature to try to "fix" it.
    Haha... how Mothera was born

  20. #20
    skillz to pay billz
    Reputation: nOOby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,556
    right, how many examples are there of good intentions gone bad? Too many to count.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleestak
    That sounds scary. Not a huge fan on tampering with nature to try to "fix" it.

  21. #21
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,115
    You mean the new "everbrown" trees?

    Just think, it's like fall all summer long.


  22. #22
    skillz to pay billz
    Reputation: nOOby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,556
    yeah, I like aspens but after 8 months a year of trees w/o leaves, I really appreciate the pines and firs.

    Also in the summer there no place like the forests for cool, shady riding. Walker was a oven by 8:30am this morning.

  23. #23
    Thread Terrorist
    Reputation: IndecentExposure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,837
    well, besides red trees, I-70 will be backed up from Friday morning until Monday morning...stragitht, up and down.

  24. #24
    contains quinine
    Reputation: Debaser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,583
    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    ... It's only when humans enter the equation with their perceptions, expectations and needs that are contrary to those natural processes that what is natural becomes a problem...
    yep.
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: wormvine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,163
    Zrm is right. What people don't get is that it was clear cutting that has caused this debaucle. Pine beetles love certain age tree's. When you clear cut and replant, all the tree's grow with the same age. Most of the tree's in CO are around the same age so the beetles have gone crazy, There are other environmental factors that have contributed.
    So if we just clear cut, we will repeat the problem in 100 years. But if we would have cut some of the tree's down 30 years ago and let the little ones grow and did this every decade we would have good age diversity and a healthier forest.

    And if you think the tree's are bad in Vail, Go to Grand County.

    Edit: Missed Nooby's post. He's right on as well.... Fire's good, Mega fires bad!!!

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •