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  1. #1
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    The Future of Colorado

    Orange and dead.
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    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  2. #2
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    it's so sad, I was up in vail/beaver creek today and it's just depressing. Came back to ned and hoped that something will stop the inevitable.

  3. #3
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    its going to suck big time for a while but there's always the aspen trees.

  4. #4
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    This can prove a boom for CO's renewable energy efforts...cellulosic ethanol...if those environmentalist morons can get their heads out of a$$ and not prevent companies from going in to clear out the standing dead (and replant) before it all burns up. If it goes up, western slope of CO = hell on earth. If this scenario happens, every environmentalist who faught against the clearning should be forced to help in the fire fighting effort(s)!

  5. #5
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    there will certainly be some huge fires, not a question of if...

    what is the enviro argument about not clearing? I haven't seen any reports on this.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    there will certainly be some huge fires, not a question of if...

    what is the enviro argument about not clearing? I haven't seen any reports on this.
    You should do some reading about the Blowdown in Zirkel Wilderness Area and (well, this was, I think, a BLM decision...but I think it was influenced by the enviros) the amount of trees/raw fuel and the resulting fires.

    Edit: Doh, I may have confused my understanding of enviros and endangered spcies (Spotted Owls being key example) habitat w/ logging, and salvo logging. My bad...
    Last edited by Pau11y; 08-02-2008 at 10:54 PM.

  7. #7
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    and Sunday afternoon traffic still gets worse! ugh!

  8. #8
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    It's a natural dynamic process that is a result of total clear cutting during the mining and logging era followed by total suppression of fire. The situation is simply part of the constantly changing face of nature. Insect infestation, fire, storm blowdown and other process's all have a vital role to play in maintaining a healthy balance of types of plant and animal species. It's only when humans enter the equation with their perceptions, expectations and needs that are contrary to those natural processes that what is natural becomes a problem.

    Most of the beetle killed lodgepole are of limited market value for lumber (the best timber for the lumber market was cut long ago and grows back very slowly at these altitudes) and that market is totally saturated. A great deal of beetle kill, contrary to what Paul11y has posted, have been cut and hauled away. So much so that there is little market for the vast majority of it and a great deal of what has been cut is being mulched. So many millions of board feet have been cut that lots of smart people as of yet haven't been able to come up with a way to keep a good portion of this wood out of land fills.

    Cellulosic ethanol presently has many hurdles before it is a practical feed stock for fuel. There has been some talk of using it as feed stock for bio mass boilers to generate electricity but that has its own set of issues. There is only so much of a market for poor quality lumber stock, pole barns, buck rail fences, and firewood.

    Even if a viable market could be found for beetle kill lodge pole, removing the dead trees on a scale matched to their numbers creates its own set of problems. When trees die and fall, the decomposition process is a vital part of creating soil. Fire also plays a vital role in returning nutrients to the soil and jump starting the process of regeneration. Trees on the ground help slow down soil erosion and provide conditions for insects to break down the wood into nutrients. Blowdown also provides habitat for many animals such as rodents and other small mammals that dig in the soil and further help create favorable conditions for new growth.

    Nature takes care of itself, just not on a time line that fits human expectations. The Forest Service, the BLM, and mountain municipalities all know that we cannot cut or spray our way out of the problem. The best we can do is create defensible space around the urban interface and accept nature for what it is - not always neat and not always subservient to humans needs and desires.

    For mountain bikers it means dead trees will fall onto trails and we'll need to spend more time cutting out trees. A pain in the a** to be sure, and there is probably somewhat of an off chance of being in the wrong place at the wrong time when a tree falls. Of course there is also the asthetic of what was formerly green now being reddish brown, but that it's a matter of our expectations. If we can re-adjust those expectations, we'll be OK in the long run.
    Last edited by zrm; 08-03-2008 at 07:13 AM.

  9. #9
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    I'm going to stand out on a (dead) limb and say that this is natural and it will take care of itself. It seems as though the forest is unhealthy (to many trees) and is doing it's own selective clearing. I'm sure this isn't the first time it has happened and wont' be the last. What sucks is that people is the fact that we build well into the forest, areas now prone to large, devistating fires. I peronsally believe it will take a catostrophic fire or a SEVERE winter to kill the beetles. After that happnes, wait 50-100 years and a new, healthy forest will be instore.

    This is just a guess.

  10. #10
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    Well said.
    A punctured bicycle
    on a hillside desolate,
    will nature make a man of me yet...
    -Morrissey

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    its going to suck big time for a while but there's always the aspen trees.
    We have land off of Crow Hill, outside Bailey - most of it was cleared by the Snaking Fire in '02. I don't know what the land looked like before the fire (we bought in '05), but the Aspens are starting to come back in force and it's beautiful up there - very park-like with the remaining well spaced 100' tall pines and "new" Aspen groves popping up all over the place. I can't wait to see how it looks in 5 years.
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  12. #12
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    Then let it burn along with the hideous real estate that is encroaching on our trails. I'll bring the marshmallows..

  13. #13
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    Good. Something needed to happen to restore healthy forests.

    BTW, this started years ago in NM...
    .




    Strava: turn off your dork logger when you're not on sanctioned trails.

  14. #14
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    It'll burn, damn right about that. Well said ZRM, makes total sense. Its seems odd that with all the research that is done, no one (at least that I know of) didn't forsee something like this possibly happen and somehow try to prevent it. We had to have Colorado's largest wild fire before people starting agreeing to forest thinning etc. I know its easy to say but it really is a shame and who knows if anything could have been done anyway. Regardless, nature will take care of the problem.

    There is one company that I know of that has been given permission to clear cut some of these trees and they use them to make cabinets and other interior furniture. The stuff is absolutely beautiful and of course very expensive. I do think they are working on ways to prepare this wood so that it can be used for exterior construction. We'll see.

    Very interesting topic.
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    So they haven't really figured out a way to stop these beetles yet? We can scoop up dirt from Mars but no solution to these beetles? The impact is massive. I can hardly believe the sections of forests that have been ruined.

    I heard they were working on some butterfly of something (maybe in Aspen) that was a natural predator to these beetles but I have not heard else anything about it for a year.

  16. #16
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    zrm is right, there are issues w/ a lot of the renewable tech today. The reason why I brought up cellulosic ethanol is specifically for the fact that the wood is commercially crap (altho papawheelie pointed to some niche market use for it). However, wood is wood as far as cellulose content so why not make alt. fuel w/ it instead of stuffing it in landfills? I'm not sure about the process in its entirety...if the nutrients held in the wood is destroyed in the conversion process of cellulose to alcohol...have to defer to zrm for this. But if not, it might be recoverable by putting the waste of the process back into the forest, reconstituting the soil...
    zrm: thoughts?

  17. #17
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    while this is natures way of taking care of the problem(human caused, logging and fire suppression) it certainly shouldn't be confused with the natural evolution of these forrests. Healthy forests are thinned by wildfires and have trees of varying sizes and ages that fight infestation.

    The devastating fires that happen lately are not the answer either as they burn too hot and scorch the earth, leaving very little fertile soil for regrowth

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    I heard they were working on some butterfly of something (maybe in Aspen) that was a natural predator to these beetles but I have not heard else anything about it for a year.

    That sounds scary. Not a huge fan on tampering with nature to try to "fix" it.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleestak
    That sounds scary. Not a huge fan on tampering with nature to try to "fix" it.
    Haha... how Mothera was born

  20. #20
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    right, how many examples are there of good intentions gone bad? Too many to count.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleestak
    That sounds scary. Not a huge fan on tampering with nature to try to "fix" it.

  21. #21
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    You mean the new "everbrown" trees?

    Just think, it's like fall all summer long.


  22. #22
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    yeah, I like aspens but after 8 months a year of trees w/o leaves, I really appreciate the pines and firs.

    Also in the summer there no place like the forests for cool, shady riding. Walker was a oven by 8:30am this morning.

  23. #23
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    well, besides red trees, I-70 will be backed up from Friday morning until Monday morning...stragitht, up and down.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    ... It's only when humans enter the equation with their perceptions, expectations and needs that are contrary to those natural processes that what is natural becomes a problem...
    yep.
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  25. #25
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    Zrm is right. What people don't get is that it was clear cutting that has caused this debaucle. Pine beetles love certain age tree's. When you clear cut and replant, all the tree's grow with the same age. Most of the tree's in CO are around the same age so the beetles have gone crazy, There are other environmental factors that have contributed.
    So if we just clear cut, we will repeat the problem in 100 years. But if we would have cut some of the tree's down 30 years ago and let the little ones grow and did this every decade we would have good age diversity and a healthier forest.

    And if you think the tree's are bad in Vail, Go to Grand County.

    Edit: Missed Nooby's post. He's right on as well.... Fire's good, Mega fires bad!!!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    Zrm is right. What people don't get is that it was clear cutting that has caused this debaucle. Pine beetles love certain age tree's. When you clear cut and replant, all the tree's grow with the same age. Most of the tree's in CO are around the same age so the beetles have gone crazy, There are other environmental factors that have contributed.
    This smells of hypocracy.

    Is your house made of wood?

    How do we fix the problem?

  27. #27
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    I had heard that the beetles followed the smell of the Hayman fire.
    If true, we should just blame Terry Barton...

    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  28. #28
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    one thing the forest service was doing when I worked for them as a firefighter back in the early 90's was restricting the logging units to 40 acres or so. This left healthy forest around the unit and also created clearings for larger wildlife(elk, moose). The problem back in the early 20th century was wholesale clearcutting with no limits, hence the problem we have now; tight, similarly aged trees that lack diversity.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    This smells of hypocracy.

    Is your house made of wood?

    How do we fix the problem?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y
    zrm is right, there are issues w/ a lot of the renewable tech today. The reason why I brought up cellulosic ethanol is specifically for the fact that the wood is commercially crap (altho papawheelie pointed to some niche market use for it). However, wood is wood as far as cellulose content so why not make alt. fuel w/ it instead of stuffing it in landfills? I'm not sure about the process in its entirety...if the nutrients held in the wood is destroyed in the conversion process of cellulose to alcohol...have to defer to zrm for this. But if not, it might be recoverable by putting the waste of the process back into the forest, reconstituting the soil...
    zrm: thoughts?
    I'm not sure you could make an adequate analysis of the commercial viability of this process from your Wikipedia article alone, but I imagine there must be some economic hurdles to overcome before these trees could be used for cellulosic ethanol.

    In the meantime, "letting nature take its course" seems like the most reasonable proposition to me. I would say the good people of Summit County and other areas affected by this would do well to start developing plans for protecting their property as well as emergency response plans for the large fires that are sure to be on the horizon.

    Haven't you heard? Brown is the new green.

  30. #30
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    I've a Forest Service (former fire guy) buddy who says the danger will drop significantly once the dead trees drop their needles, which should happen a year or two after they die (from my understanding).

    Up in Kremmling there was talk of a pellet manufacturing plant being planned to use up some of the vast amounts of wood available.

  31. #31
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    From the studying I've done on this the situation doesn't seem to be as dire as people make it out to be. The beetle won't touch trees smaller than 4 inches in diameter, and lodgepole pine is incredibly prolific. Those forests will return inside of 30 years. In the meantime enjoy the aspens! And correct me if I'm wrong but this doesn't seem to have hit the ponderosa pine yet, and hopefully it won't. The beetles tend to search out trees of the same species they matured in, which so far has been all lodgepole. (At least at the epidemic level, these beetles are endemic in all CO pines)

    As for commercial viability my buddy builds houses up here in the FR area and beetle kill is getting used in almost every house he builds. The only difference in the wood according to him is a slight tint. I'm sure there's still way too much to even know how to deal with it.

  32. #32
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    From the ground.....

    As a decade long Grand County cabin owner, MTBR, and a 20+ year Winter Park downhill and xc skier, myself and most lifelong residents will tell you that this generation of beetlekill most likely (1) started in Grand County on Ute Pass, and (2) is worse than most prior beetlekill infestations.

    Mountain Pine Beetles are now taking down younger trees, and the previous ratio of one dead tree = two dead trees the following season has now exploded to 1 to 4+. Most forest service people feel that Grand County, CO lodgepole is now at 85% kill, with the remainder coming in the next season or two. We are also watching other diseases, such as mistletoe, attack spruce and other beetlekill resistant firs.

    This is all in an area surrounding Fraser, CO, known as the icebox of the nation, and frequently the coldest spot in the US for at least a portion of each winter. Obviously, it hasn't been cold enough to stop the beetles this time around. One of our neighbors recalls using oil/petro based sprays back in the 70's and earlier periods of outbreak, which may have worked, but also couldn't happen today. We have been spraying our trees with Astro pesticide the past 6 years in early June before the beetles fly, but have lost all of them taller than 6' in height. Other subdivisions have had some success with Astro, but it is hard to tell if they will prevail and at what cost.

    While falling timber, fire exposure, and sediment runoff into watersheds (ie: Colorado River Basin) are some of the most serious issues we face short-term, this is a long-term challenge. Forests don't just provide aesthetic beauty, shelter, and oxygen, they also protect and provide the fabric of our playgrounds - namely powder snow, singletrack trails, shade, and windblock.

    Fire is the most natural method and actually releases pinecone seeds for regeneration, but most feel it would be uncontrollable. We have been clearing fire breaks for 3-5 years now, and while the red needled slash is most flammable, even those branches without needles are explosive.

    Fallen timber and lack of shade isn't the only thing that trail users will wrestle with. Trees actually create trail architecture and if heavy equipment is used to clear trees, trails as we know them are usually obliterated unless painstaking care is taken to preserve them ie: singletrack.

    As others have described - there's only two short-term ways to clear the decks - catastrophic fire, or clear cut and haul. The third method, leaving standing dead timber and then fallen dead timber, will most certainly be the default approach given the millions of acres of severe topo this issue covers, but it also perhaps extends the recovery and new growth regeneration cycle. Many are thinking of ways to solve this issue through recycling of lumber for construction or fuels, but the costs of setting up timber and processing plants are potentially prohibitive as this is essentially a one-harvest crop of dead trees that will take 30-50 years to regenerate given the arid high-mountain enviro (vs Pacific NW).

    See both Canadian Forest Service and USFS websites - this is a problem throughout the Rocky Mountain West.

    No, I'm not a tree-hugger, but I may become one. Both sides of the aisle will need to pitch in on this. Sorry about the rant and any emotional mis-statements, but it will take all of us to figure it out.

  33. #33
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    I really don't see this as a enviro vs whatever-one-would-a-non-enviro issue. Whether you hugging a tree or jumping trees on your moto, we all need to think of ways to lessen the impact, if there is a way?
    Last edited by nOOby; 08-04-2008 at 03:08 PM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    I really don't see this as a enviro vs whatever-one-would-a-non-enviro issue. Whether you hugging a tree or jumping trees on your moto, we all need to think of ways to avoid this catastrophe, if there is a way?
    +0.75!

    except for the part on avoiding....from all I see it's too late to avoid, just a matter of how we deal with the aftermath.

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    Yeah apparently there are some spray treatments that work but they must be applied from the ground on a yearly basis. Obviously not a solution for millions of acres... Maybe we'll get a ridiculous cold snap this year and it'll all be over...but I read somewhere about -30 for several days is what's needed. Not likely.

  36. #36
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    true, The current situation is not avoidable. We are really paying for decisions made 100+ years ago. Hopefully we can learn for those mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ibmkidIII
    +0.75!

    except for the part on avoiding....from all I see it's too late to avoid, just a matter of how we deal with the aftermath.

  37. #37
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    I drove over the big hill last weekend. Could not believe my eyes.
    It was very sad.... 70% of the Mtn side was red/dead
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibmkidIII
    just a matter of how we deal with the aftermath.
    Geez, negative Nelly's. Look the the bright side... time to polish up on your northshore skills. Look at all spare lumber for ramps and ladders.

  39. #39
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    Wait til Cameltoe and Mooseknuckle come through. Its game over then.
    Rub n Tiz'zug

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Geez, negative Nelly's. Look the the bright side... time to polish up on your northshore skills. Look at all spare lumber for ramps and ladders.
    exactly! If no one goes up there, perhaps we'll be the trail crew!

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Geez, negative Nelly's. Look the the bright side... time to polish up on your northshore skills. Look at all spare lumber for ramps and ladders.
    Negative? How was that negative? Me thinks you interpreted it negatively. I was just stating a fact based on what I've read in the media. More or less fact that we'll be losing all the lodgepoles over a given diameter (4ish?). How we deal with it is the question....

    I do like playing on NS stunts....and that's certainly one way to deal with it.

  42. #42
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    Wow, if Green Mtn shows the potential for speed of fire in present burn potential...CRAP!

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibmkidIII
    Negative? How was that negative? Me thinks you interpreted it negatively. I was just stating a fact based on what I've read in the media. More or less fact that we'll be losing all the lodgepoles over a given diameter (4ish?). How we deal with it is the question....

    I do like playing on NS stunts....and that's certainly one way to deal with it.
    Didn't mean you specifically, just the overall tone of the thread. I was trying to give a positive suggestion for the aftermath.

    In reality I'm as bummed as anyone about the situation.. I have about 300 trees I stand to lose.. and that's after having thinned about 80 of them this summer. I have a few 50' monsters I'd really like to keep that provide great shade and I'm already running out of spots to put more mulch.

    Unfortunately it's not just the lodgepoles like folks here are saying.. the ponderosa and limber pines are susceptible as well. The douglas firs and pinons seem to fare better, but from what I've seen on the other side of the divide, I wouldn't hold my breath.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    This smells of hypocracy.

    Is your house made of wood?

    How do we fix the problem?
    It's not hypocricy! The forests of Colorado were clear cut before my father was born. That would be like blaming you for the African slave trade. But I do own a house made of wood. But I would rather it be made of concrete and steel stud. But that's another story. And that doesn't mean I support massive clear cutting either. As others have mentioned, there are many ways to harvest lumber that doesn't massacre the entire forest. Tree's are a valuable sustainable resource.

    How do we fix the problem? In my opinion, We need age diversity. So you have to harvest and use as much of the old lumber as possible. Make lemonade out of lemon's. Some is gonna die and fall over but there is already a huge amount of deadfall as it is and that is what scares me. We need some fires to clean out the deadfall and to help germinate the next generations. But we don't want mega fires that burn so hot that they kill the seeds in the ground.
    We also need to selectively cull the new trees in the coming decades so that younger tree's have a chance to grow. This will create a more age diverse forest. And more resistant to beetle infestation.

    Will we able to do this??? NO. I believe all the tree's will die. A huge fire will rage in CO and wipe out everything. New tree's will grow. They will all be the same age. In 100 years, CO will go through the same thing again. Unfortunately......

  45. #45
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    This is a great example of Mother Nature taking care of herself. It is all about disturbance regimes, whether its fire, volcanos, blowdown or beetles, the environment is always changing and we can't stop it. Everyone wants to keep their own "snapshot in time" of their favorite wilderness area or their favorite campsite and hope that it stays the same forever. But thats what makes the ecology of the woods interesting. If we are managing Mesa Verde, then we want to preserve a snapshot in time, but if we are managing Forests, Wilderness or National Parks, (I guess BLM fits in to that as well), then we have to expect, anticipate and manage for change. Instead of being bummed out about the trees turning red, folks should be anticipating whats next? More aspen? More fire? More brush? Whatever it is, get over being bummed about the trees dying (because you can't do anything about it anyway), and plan for whats next.

    We have started calling this the "Stages of Beetle Grief"...You can save yourself a lot of heartache by going straight to the "ACCEPTANCE" phase!!!!

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    Zrm is right. What people don't get is that it was clear cutting that has caused this debaucle.
    Oh that's just Bovine Fecal Material.

    My dad had an uncle that homesteaded a small ranch in the William's Fork Valley back in the 20's. I fished, hiked, and hunted that valley since the 60's. Some of my earliest childhood memories are there.

    Clear cut my arse. Where are the stumps?

    That land was NEVER clear cut and yet the entire valley is being attacked by the beetle. EXCEPT for the acrage that was managed and harvested. Ask any of the old timers up there about James Oray. His tombstone is up above the treeline, it says "Toughtest SOB in the valley".


    Go spread your spotted owl ELF manure somewhere else.
    Last edited by insect_o_man; 08-04-2008 at 08:07 PM.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    It's not hypocricy! The forests of Colorado were clear cut before my father was born. That would be like blaming you for the African slave trade. But I do own a house made of wood. But I would rather it be made of concrete and steel stud. But that's another story. And that doesn't mean I support massive clear cutting either. As others have mentioned, there are many ways to harvest lumber that doesn't massacre the entire forest. Tree's are a valuable sustainable resource.

    How do we fix the problem? In my opinion, We need age diversity. So you have to harvest and use as much of the old lumber as possible. Make lemonade out of lemon's. Some is gonna die and fall over but there is already a huge amount of deadfall as it is and that is what scares me. We need some fires to clean out the deadfall and to help germinate the next generations. But we don't want mega fires that burn so hot that they kill the seeds in the ground.
    We also need to selectively cull the new trees in the coming decades so that younger tree's have a chance to grow. This will create a more age diverse forest. And more resistant to beetle infestation.

    Will we able to do this??? NO. I believe all the tree's will die. A huge fire will rage in CO and wipe out everything. New tree's will grow. They will all be the same age. In 100 years, CO will go through the same thing again. Unfortunately......
    Can you plz explain (or provide a link to) why age homogenization due to clear cuts is, in your sentiment, one of the key contribution, to the bark beetle infestation? Because from observations of those who posted on this thread, bettles are no longer differentiating young vs mature trees, with hints of them also starting to not differentiate between species of trees. The reason I ask is I've heard of some negatives of clear cuts - soil errosion/depletion, catastrophic impact on habitat...etc, as told to me by a former roommate who was a logger with a degree in forestry management. But I haven't heard of age of the new growth as a negative. Don't take this as an antagonizing response; I'm seriously interested.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    The forests of Colorado were clear cut before my father was born.
    So quite a few people have said this in this thread...though I'm not doubting it (why would I not believe 20 some random mtbrers?), does anyone have a little more solid reference for the fact that all/most of colorado was clear cut at some point?

    I poked around on google and didn't find much off hand.

    Not sure if I've been in a "virgin" forest before or not....

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser
    Orange and dead.
    No. This is forrest burned in the Hayman fire. See the green?





    Nature survives - It'll even survive the Dumb-a$$ U.S. Forrest Service not allowing nature to burn mature forrests.

    Now stop snivling and go live and ride.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Unfortunately it's not just the lodgepoles like folks here are saying.. the ponderosa and limber pines are susceptible as well. The douglas firs and pinons seem to fare better, but from what I've seen on the other side of the divide, I wouldn't hold my breath.
    True, but the pine beetles are endemic to all these species. From what I've read (USFS has a lot of literature on this) a pine beetle will find the same tree it matured in, traveling up to 2 mile to find a host. The Ponderosa stands are less likely to suffer at the epidemic level (although it has happened in thepast...) based on how they grow - much more spread out as compared to the lodgepole pine - as well as the fact that the Ponderosa stands are mixed age and generally have other pine species in the stands. Also, the Ponderosa stands are currently much healthier compared to the lodgepole stands. The 10+ year drought we've been having has severely weakened those trees whereas the Ponderosas are better adapted to aridity. Drought combined with single aged, old stands is decimating the lodgepoles. Maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part - love my FC area trees....

    Hopefully when this all goes down we actually have smart fire management - not allowing fires to clean our forests is a big reason this is happening.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibmkidIII
    So quite a few people have said this in this thread...though I'm not doubting it (why would I not believe 20 some random mtbrers?), does anyone have a little more solid reference for the fact that all/most of colorado was clear cut at some point?

    I poked around on google and didn't find much off hand.

    Not sure if I've been in a "virgin" forest before or not....
    I'll search around and find it but I know USFS has some documentation stating that the susceptible lodgepole stands are all second growth, generally the same age and fairly old. Think about how these stands look when you see them - a healthy old growth forest is not all one type of tree with nothing else growing in it.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibmkidIII
    So quite a few people have said this in this thread...though I'm not doubting it (why would I not believe 20 some random mtbrers?), does anyone have a little more solid reference for the fact that all/most of colorado was clear cut at some point?

    I poked around on google and didn't find much off hand.

    Not sure if I've been in a "virgin" forest before or not....
    They're probably alluding to the "clearcuts" that occurred around just about every mining town/camp in the late 19th century. It is documented photographically that places like Breckenridge were rid of nearly every single tree in the forests.

    The only "virgin" forest I've been in is one of the temperate rain forests out in Olympic National Park. Although I'm not even certain that those are actually "virgin."

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by insect_o_man
    No. This is forrest burned in the Hayman fire. See the green?
    Same with the Peaks Trail up by Frisco/Breck. The dead trees are already starting to allow more light to the ground, and I noticed a LOT of grasses/flowers/etc in what were fairly dense forests several years ago with little undergrowth.

    A fire would probably REALLY get things rolling vegetation-wise on the ground up there...

  54. #54
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    It's weird though...if anyone's ridden up at Bobcat that burn area is almost ten years old.(!) We thought it must have burned a year or two previous - no new trees AT ALL - but a ranger told us otherwise. It's just so dry up by FC I guess...

    I was checking out some studies recently that were talking about various species that benefit from complete full on wildfires, not just understory fires. I suspect the statements about big fires sterilizing the area we originally put out there to back up our old policies of quelling fires as soon as they start. Glad to see this is changing though - CO has a 500+ acre fire right now they're letting burn.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by andykrow
    Hopefully when this all goes down we actually have smart fire management - not allowing fires to clean our forests is a big reason this is happening.
    Right on target!

    FIRE for effect.
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    Ponderosas are getting hit too. The Estes area has Beetles in and all around it. Ponderosa's aren't getting hit too bad yet, but hundreds have been removed so far...compared to the thousands of Lodgepole. Some folks still think they can beat the beetles, especially on the Eastern Slope. I was at an Allenspark meeting recently and there are folks that still think they can "Beat" the beetles. Save your money on spraying in Lodgepole, it is a 15-20 year committment with no guarantee. Spraying Ponderosa's is still viable in some area and is effective, as long as the surrounding stands aren't hit too hard.

    Another thing I have heard even recently is that thinning will help vitalize the stand and fend off the beetles. Another thing that does not work. You thin a stand by removing the small trees...then the beetle come in, kill your large trees, then you have nothing left.

    Most areas are really not that bad (unless it is your back yard and your only trees.) But all around Grand Lake, even through the dead trees, you can see the next generation poking through, the understary is just waiting for sunlight to poke through.

    As for fire danger...it does go up. The mountains of the Rockies have historically, or even prehistorically been dependent on preceeding years of drought before large stand replacing fires have occured since we are so high and wet. (There is a fire history study that shows this) That means the green trees need to be stressed and the needles dry before large scale fires can occur. Now, instead of years of dry weather, we only need weeks, since the dead trees do not have a moisure supply. A few weeks of hot dry weather can set us up for a large scale fire. Even after the needles fall off, you stll have a huge dead component of fuels out there.

    We need to see more burning/prescribed burning and even managed natural fires. The old adage "Fight Fire with Fire" holds true in many ways...

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    and Sunday afternoon traffic still gets worse! ugh!
    Gotta learn to adapt man. This Winter, I'm gonna (try to) learn how to do this:

    <object height="344" width="425">

    <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4diWsjpC1jI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>


    Wind, Snow, and the open plains
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by insect_o_man
    Gotta learn to adapt man. This Winter, I'm gonna (try to) learn how to do this:

    <object height="344" width="425">

    <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4diWsjpC1jI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>


    Wind, Snow, and the open plains
    Admit it - you just like that clip for the music.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    Admit it - you just like that clip for the music.
    "Hold your head up... movein' on!"



    Nothin' wrong with that
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by insect_o_man
    Gotta learn to adapt man. This Winter, I'm gonna (try to) learn how to do this:

    <object height="344" width="425">

    <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4diWsjpC1jI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>


    Wind, Snow, and the open plains
    Never mind that huge kite, I'm curious how fast your pass'd get pulled if you show up with something as simple as this:

    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/x3HTPwMgr6o&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/x3HTPwMgr6o&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y
    Never mind that huge kite, I'm curious how fast your pass'd get pulled if you show up with something as simple as this:
    <object height="344" width="425">

    <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/x3HTPwMgr6o&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>
    Wheeee. That looks fun. I dunno how well it would work on relatively flat terrain... somebody gotta try it out

    I have a smaller 5' foil-kite I experimented with years ago as a sail for sea-kayaking. I'm going to start with that.

    Point is, there's lots of recreational opportunities if we just open our eyes and look. Gotta look outside the stream of the mass-marketing machine.
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibmkidIII
    So quite a few people have said this in this thread...though I'm not doubting it (why would I not believe 20 some random mtbrers?), does anyone have a little more solid reference for the fact that all/most of colorado was clear cut at some point?

    I poked around on google and didn't find much off hand.

    Not sure if I've been in a "virgin" forest before or not....
    I took a ride on the Georgetown train a few years ago. They had pictures there of that valley without a single tree on it during mining's hayday there. I imagine, as someone else said, that most land near mining was the same way.
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y
    Can you plz explain (or provide a link to) why age homogenization due to clear cuts is, in your sentiment, one of the key contribution, to the bark beetle infestation? Because from observations of those who posted on this thread, bettles are no longer differentiating young vs mature trees, with hints of them also starting to not differentiate between species of trees. The reason I ask is I've heard of some negatives of clear cuts - soil errosion/depletion, catastrophic impact on habitat...etc, as told to me by a former roommate who was a logger with a degree in forestry management. But I haven't heard of age of the new growth as a negative. Don't take this as an antagonizing response; I'm seriously interested.
    I have been following the beetle epidemic for many years now as I used to live in Winter Park and now live in Vail. I have read many articles about the pine beetles and I have heard age homogenization mentioned many times. I searched for a specific reference and found this quote here:
    He said the die-off is a reminder for forest managers of the need to use controlled fire and other means to create a "diversity of age classes" so that "one insect or one pathogen cannot destroy an entire forest at once."
    Indeed, even as the outbreak moves into the Front Range's ponderosa pine forests, it's unlikely to create the same visual devastation as on the Western Slope. The ponderosa forests tend to have a better mix of tree species, as well as more age diversity, making it unlikely the beetles will find as many suitable hosts as in the pure 80-plus year-old lodgepole stands it has favored.


    Keep in mind it's not the only reason. We have had warmer winters which have not been able to kill the beetles. The lodgepole are very dense as well in area's like Grand County. Lack of fires has contributed as well. The trees are old and more susceptible as well.
    All these factors have contributed to the explosion of pine beetles. They are now spilling over to other less susceptible species and age groups.
    There's a lot more info on google and probably can explain it more clearly than I can.

    Here is a description of a lodgepole whose lifespan is around 150 years.
    http://www.fs.fed.us/ipnf/eco/yourfo...ees/lodge.html

    Another quote from here:
    This isn’t a new issue. Regeneration following large-scale fires, clearing and logging in the late 1800s
    resulted in homogenous stands across large areas of the Forests.
    Last edited by wormvine; 08-04-2008 at 09:56 PM.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    He said the die-off is a reminder for forest managers of the need to use controlled fire and other means to create a "diversity of age classes"
    And thus we see ELFie backpeddling furiously from "It's ALL because of the Clearcutting doooods".


    "Lack of fires has contributed as well." - Bingo, there's the money phrase.

    Say thankyou to the Bureacrats in the U.S. Forrest Service. Though they'll NEVER admit it, it's their mismanagement that has brought this about.


    "Forrest Rangers" LOL. Little men wif badges; The Barney Fifes of the woodland.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by insect_o_man
    And thus we see ELFie backpeddling furiously from "It's ALL because of the Clearcutting doooods".


    "Lack of fires has contributed as well." - Bingo, there's the money phrase.

    Say thankyou to the Bureacrats in the U.S. Forrest Service. Though they'll NEVER admit it, it's their mismanagement that has brought this about.


    "Forrest Rangers" LOL. Little men wif badges; The Barney Fifes of the woodland.
    You got serious issues bro! I am as far from an ELFie as it gets.
    Maybe these fires will get rid of the Trolls

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    You got serious issues bro! I am as far from an ELFie as it gets.
    You're the one that pulled this "It's ALL because of the Clearcutting doooods" garbage out of your A$$.

    You're a liar, and I'm not your "bro".
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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by insect_o_man
    You're the one that pulled this "It's ALL because of the Clearcutting doooods" garbage out of your A$$.

    You're a liar, and I'm not your "bro".

    I think you need anger management therapy! And clearcutting is a factor, loggerman!

  68. #68
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    Here's one more chance for you to get a clue:
    Article taken from the Colorado Timber Association website"


    After the Beetles
    Colorado Timber Industry Association Perspective
    Background
    Over the next 10 – 15 years, most of the lodgepole pine in the Colorado High Country will regenerate
    through a combination of mountain pine beetle, salvage timber sales, and large wildfires. The biggest
    long-term challenge is how to increase the diversity of the lodgepole stands in the Colorado High
    Country. That, in turn, will reduce the long-term cycles of mountain pine beetles and fire, as well as the
    long-term cycles for forest products and forest products companies. Increasing diversity will also
    benefit overall wildlife habitat.
    This isn’t a new issue. Regeneration following large-scale fires, clearing and logging in the late 1800sresulted in homogenous stands across large areas of the Forests. In the late 1970s, a fairly significant
    mountain pine beetle outbreak occurred in the Breckenridge area. The Forest Service implemented
    several timber sales to salvage dead and dying trees. In the mid-1980s, Forest Service entomologists
    recommended increasing the diversity of lodgepole stands at the landscape scale. In 1985, the Region 2
    Director of Timber, Forest Pest and Cooperative Forest Management approved a detailed analysis that
    found that only 14% of the lodgepole pine was less than 80 years of age, and called for regeneration of
    9,000 acres per decade in the Summit, Grand, and Eagle Counties alone in order to increase diversity
    and reduce the risks of insects, disease and fire.
    The Forest Service fell far short of that recommendation for a variety of reasons. Forest management
    declined sharply beginning in the mid-1980s. In 1989, the Forest Service proposed to eliminate timber
    sale programs on the White River and Arapaho Roosevelt NFs as part of a national strategy to address
    below cost timber sales. Even though Congress rejected the proposal, the Forest Service proceeded to
    virtually eliminate the timber sale programs on those Forests anyhow. In the 1990s, environmental
    special interest groups challenged most timber sale projects on all 3 Forests over issues like old growth
    forests, biodiversity, roadless areas, effects on wildlife, etc.
    Forest plan revisions were completed for the Routt and Arapaho Roosevelt NFs in the late 1990s, during
    a period of above average precipitation and below average fire activity and low mountain pine beetle
    infestation. Even though there was some discussion in the forest plan revision documents about risk of
    fire and mountain pine beetle epidemics, the forest plans did not seriously consider landscape diversity.
    In fact, both Forests plans projected that the percentage of mature and old growth stands would
    increase significantly as the revised forest plans were implemented over the next 50 years.
    The Arapaho Roosevelt, Routt and White River NFs have a combined acreage of 4,734,660, of which
    970,000 acres, or about 20%, have been designated as suited timberlands (suited timberlands are those
    lands where timber production is established as a multiple use objective in the forest plan). 2005 timber
    harvest acres for the 3 Forests combined totaled approximately 1,500 acres, or .15% of the suited
    timberlands.
    Challenges ahead include the low amount of suited timberlands, large acreages of roadless areas with
    limited access, risk of using prescribed fire on the necessary scale as well as smoke impacts from
    prescribed fire, proposed Forest Service direction for lynx habitat, and the costs of implementing
    necessary treatments.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    I think you need anger management therapy!


    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    And clearcutting is a factor, loggerman!
    A factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    "What people don't get is that it was clear cutting that has caused this debaucle"
    But now it's just "A factor".

    You're a backpedaling liar.

    And um...

    "large-scale fires" -- So what were the climatic conditions that resulted in these "large-scale fires"?


    Wanna bet they weren't "Anthropogenic"?

    Oooooh doubleplussungood for the BranchAlgorians.
    Last edited by insect_o_man; 08-04-2008 at 11:29 PM.
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    Have a great night!
    get that therapy fast for all our sakes!

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    "What people don't get is that it was clear cutting that has caused this debaucle"!
    "clear cutting that has caused this debaucle"

    backpedal
    backpedal
    backpedal

    errr... No wait! It's just a "factor"

    --Wormvine



    Last edited by insect_o_man; 08-04-2008 at 11:30 PM.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sawyerdog
    Another thing I have heard even recently is that thinning will help vitalize the stand and fend off the beetles. Another thing that does not work. You thin a stand by removing the small trees...then the beetle come in, kill your large trees, then you have nothing left.
    Removing the small trees..?? Who the hell is doing that? You thin by removing the diseased, twisted and unhealthy trees first. Many of the densely packed areas do happen to be small trees, but the goal isn't to remove the small ones in particular, it's to decrease the population evenly and allow the choice trees more access to light and water. Intentionally thinning out your new growth would be plain dumb.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by andykrow
    True, but the pine beetles are endemic to all these species. From what I've read (USFS has a lot of literature on this) a pine beetle will find the same tree it matured in, traveling up to 2 mile to find a host.
    You don't have to read.. just head over to Winter Park. About 80% of every coniferous tree is dead.. lodgepoles and ponderosa alike. From the levels of infestation there, barely anything except new growth is left alive. You can already see the signs of those same swarms across the divide in Rollinsville and Ned, which have a similar mix of tree species and age. I'd like to believe otherwise, but barring some act of nature, I'm guessing this area will look the same in a year or two.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    I'm guessing this area will look the same in a year or two.
    Just in time for the solar (sunspot) cycle peak in 2012. Yipeee. Great timing. Hope there's a cure for the Forest Service's rectal-encephalitis before then.

    On a related conspiratorial tangent...

    Any of the other old farts here remember these beetles being called the "Japanese Bark Beetle"; Back in the Un-PC late 60's / 70's? Why was that? Bwahahahahaha!
    Last edited by insect_o_man; 08-05-2008 at 12:04 AM.
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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by insect_o_man
    Wheeee. That looks fun. I dunno how well it would work on relatively flat terrain... somebody gotta try it out

    I have a smaller 5' foil-kite I experimented with years ago as a sail for sea-kayaking. I'm going to start with that.

    Point is, there's lots of recreational opportunities if we just open our eyes and look. Gotta look outside the stream of the mass-marketing machine.
    Do a search on YouTube for speed riding...
    I'm a pretty accomplished skier; my next step is to get into sky diving... I wanna do some of that speed riding, as well as fly a wingsuit

  76. #76
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    seems like those pesky beetles have somehow got a login on MTBR.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    seems like those pesky beetles have somehow got a login on MTBR.
    Yeah, I know how what ya mean.

    I feel much the same way myself everytime I drive the 119 and see all those ugly-a$$ houses that are infesting the forest near Nederland.

    Used to be a beautifull place. Now it's less so. That's the problem with beautifull places; folks want to live there.... and in doing so destroy the beauty that attracted them in the first place.
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  78. #78
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    There are big changes in forests throughout the western US. There are currently big impacts from both spruce budworm and bark beetles, making the matter even more complex. Whether or not these insect disturbance events are out the ordinary or not is still being sorted out, although the evidence so far says that this is an extreme situation, esp. in the SW US. A full understanding of the underlying causes of making this extreme is not yet known. Climate change, fire regime changes, past forest management, ...

    First, we have to figure out goals for forest management. Forest are dynamic over time, and picking one point in time as a model for current conditions is not going to work very well. We need to figure out what we want and whether or not we can get what we want, at a reasonable cost. If the conversation stays in the blame game or jumps to some "1860s as model" game, we are sunk.

    One important key is that there are different types of forests across the western US, and one model of what is "appropriate" does not fit all forests. The open woodland concept is limited to SW and lower elevation Ponderosa and Douglas fir forests. Those species have thick, fire resistant bark that can withstand frequent surface fires that could help to sustain an open woodland. Lodgepole pine is all about crown fire. Many of the cones don't open and release seeds until they get hot enough, fire hot enough. Lodgepole trees may not be super healthy in those doghair stands, but they are heathy to lodgepole in the sense that they facilitate fire and subsequent lodgepole persistence. Lodgepole and humans may not always see eye to eye on what each wants. Also, lodgepole has paper thin bark and would be killed at the first surface fire in a woodland type of environment. And the complexities go on and on the deeper one looks. One size solutions do not fit all forests of the western US!!

    My other comment has to do with solutions. Within a species of trees, there is genetic variability. Some trees might be naturally resistant to bark beetles. Other trees might be more drought resistant. So what if we help to save all the bark beetle resistant trees only to find that those are the trees that can't deal very well with drought. Outlandish? Well, this has happened with Pinyon pine in the SW, only with pinyon moths instead of bark beetles. The point is that we often try to find simple solutions only to find we have created different problems.

    The reality is that our forests are changing, and they may be changing into something very different, regardless of what we do at this point. I hope I am wrong.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowdog
    The point is that we often try to find simple solutions only to find we have created different problems.
    A salient point. So it goes when humans are convinced they know more than nature. In the end, Natural Law rules.



    Quote Originally Posted by cowdog
    The reality is that our forests are changing,.
    True that. Just ask the Dinosaurs that used to live in the tropical forests of the Gunnison Valley.

    Adaptation is the order of the day...
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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowdog
    There are big changes in forests throughout the western US. There are currently big impacts from both spruce budworm and bark beetles, making the matter even more complex. Whether or not these insect disturbance events are out the ordinary or not is still being sorted out, although the evidence so far says that this is an extreme situation, esp. in the SW US. A full understanding of the underlying causes of making this extreme is not yet known. Climate change, fire regime changes, past forest management, ...

    First, we have to figure out goals for forest management. Forest are dynamic over time, and picking one point in time as a model for current conditions is not going to work very well. We need to figure out what we want and whether or not we can get what we want, at a reasonable cost. If the conversation stays in the blame game or jumps to some "1860s as model" game, we are sunk.

    One important key is that there are different types of forests across the western US, and one model of what is "appropriate" does not fit all forests. The open woodland concept is limited to SW and lower elevation Ponderosa and Douglas fir forests. Those species have thick, fire resistant bark that can withstand frequent surface fires that could help to sustain an open woodland. Lodgepole pine is all about crown fire. Many of the cones don't open and release seeds until they get hot enough, fire hot enough. Lodgepole trees may not be super healthy in those doghair stands, but they are heathy to lodgepole in the sense that they facilitate fire and subsequent lodgepole persistence. Lodgepole and humans may not always see eye to eye on what each wants. Also, lodgepole has paper thin bark and would be killed at the first surface fire in a woodland type of environment. And the complexities go on and on the deeper one looks. One size solutions do not fit all forests of the western US!!

    My other comment has to do with solutions. Within a species of trees, there is genetic variability. Some trees might be naturally resistant to bark beetles. Other trees might be more drought resistant. So what if we help to save all the bark beetle resistant trees only to find that those are the trees that can't deal very well with drought. Outlandish? Well, this has happened with Pinyon pine in the SW, only with pinyon moths instead of bark beetles. The point is that we often try to find simple solutions only to find we have created different problems.

    The reality is that our forests are changing, and they may be changing into something very different, regardless of what we do at this point. I hope I am wrong.
    Good points.

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    Indeed, weren't the forests managed the best when we let the forests manage themselves? Unfortunately we now have that pesky urban-wildland interface to deal with... But it's sort of like choosing to live on a floodplain - nature's gonna get you sooner or later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by insect_o_man
    Yeah, I know how what ya mean.

    I feel much the same way myself everytime I drive the 119 and see all those ugly-a$$ houses that are infesting the forest near Nederland.
    Same could be said for the entire rotting cesspool of Denver. A house doesn't get any more environmentally friendly just because you build in a row with 200 others.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Same could be said for the entire rotting cesspool of Denver. A house doesn't get any more environmentally friendly just because you build in a row with 200 others.
    Couldn't agree with you more.

    Or The Eagles...


    From "The Last Resort":
    [snip]
    Some rich men came and raped the land,
    Nobody caught 'em
    Put up a bunch of ugly boxes, and Jesus,
    people bought 'em
    And they called it paradise
    The place to be
    They watched the hazy sun, sinking in the sea
    [snip]



    Eden never lasts...

    ... but it was nice when the malignancy was confined below the foothills; and we could still find a little grace in the highlands.
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  84. #84
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    If youre missing the 'grace' in the highlands, then you are blind.

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    Maybe the Indians had something like this. I think "we" moved here and started mining and clearcutting the high country pretty much immediately upon arrival.


    Quote Originally Posted by insect_o_man
    Couldn't agree with you more.

    Or The Eagles...


    From "The Last Resort":
    [snip]
    Some rich men came and raped the land,
    Nobody caught 'em
    Put up a bunch of ugly boxes, and Jesus,
    people bought 'em
    And they called it paradise
    The place to be
    They watched the hazy sun, sinking in the sea
    [snip]



    Eden never lasts...

    ... but it was nice when the malignancy was confined below the foothills; and we could still find a little grace in the highlands.
    .




    Strava: turn off your dork logger when you're not on sanctioned trails.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    If youre missing the 'grace' in the highlands, then you are blind.
    Maybe Grace, like beauty, is relative and in the eye of the beholder?

    Maybe it's just that it's not as apparent in my old familiar places; and that I'm selfish and don't like sharing them?

    In some ways, The Innocent Age, The Gnostic Eden, is a personal as well as cultural experience.
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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113
    Maybe the Indians had something like this.
    The Indians and the Mountain Men.
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    I don't know where you're talking about but there isn't a rash of construction around here.

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    "living the gnar flow"- now that's funny!
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    I don't know where you're talking about but there isn't a rash of construction around here.
    My frame of reference is the 60's and 70's.

    The family of a fellow member of the Boy Scout troop I belonged to had a cabin to the west of Ned; and the troop spent a good bit of time there in all seasons.

    To me, the visible change between then and now is obvious and dramatic.

    It may be your Eden now.... but things change.

    BTW, ever eat at the Black Forrest Inn? The owner, Bill Lorenz, who is also the former mayor of Black Hawk, is quite the historian and can give you some interesting insight into the corruption of paradise. He's also a survivor, in more ways that one; having some unique experiences which give a certain weight to his opinions regarding the parallels between pre-WWII Germany and the current political scene.

    Always a pleasure to talk to you Nooby, thanks for hanging in there ;-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    "living the gnar flow"- now that's funny!

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    Quote Originally Posted by insect_o_man
    BTW, ever eat at the Black Forrest Inn? The owner, Bill Lorenz, who is also the former mayor of Black Hawk, is quite the historian and can give you some interesting insight into the corruption of paradise.
    Hmmm.. so did that "corruption" happen before or after he put up one of the larger buildings in town?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Hmmm.. so did that "corruption" happen before or after he put up one of the larger buildings in town?
    In Black Hawk? To my knowledge, he never built anything there other than his original Black Forrest Inn. I could be wrong. Personally haven't been up there or seen him since summer of 2006(?).

    The corruption occurred via the process that changed the Inn and other businesses into Casinos.

    He told me his support of the process that legalized gambling in Black Hawk and Central City was the biggest mistake of his life; one that he regretted terribly. They all thought it would bring life to the community; but in the end, the Nevada Frankenstein they unleashed had plans of it's own.

    He was essentially bankrupted and moved on to Ned to start over; and that he has - as I said, he is a survivor.

    I don't recall if he built the new Inn in Ned or if it was existing construction. Perhaps a bit of both with an addition?

    My parents would know, as they've known Mr. Lorenz for many years; friends who have cheered each other up and on through sickness and both good and bad fortune.
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by insect_o_man
    In Black Hawk? To my knowledge, he never built anything there other than his original Black Forrest Inn.
    I'm referring to the Ned joint my man.. The same area you referenced in regards to the "corruption of paradise". Sorry if I wouldn't put much stock on this subject into the opinions of a guy owning a large building here with stuffed wildlife decorating the walls.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Sorry if I wouldn't put much stock on this subject into the opinions of a guy owning a large building here with stuffed wildlife decorating the walls.
    Well you are free to make that choice. As to the wildlife, the props do lend the place a certain atmosphere.

    I'm not much for such trophies myself, but to each his own.


    We were looking at a house once where the owner had a stuffed duck hanging in the bedroom. It was hanging at an odd angle that my wife commented upon, something like "your duck looks like it's drunk". He got a strange look and asked if she was offended (she wasn't, having grown up on a farm and thus seeing lots of stuffed ducks).

    Anyways he'd just had a previous female viewer who had given him a tirade about how "offended" she was by his duck.

    You just reminded me of her...


    Are the hippies selling their fake crystals in Ned's tourist fleecing operation more your style?


    BTW, I especially like the Black Forrest's Elk stew. Nothing like local Fauna on the menu to bring out the spirit of a place.
    Last edited by insect_o_man; 08-05-2008 at 10:34 PM.
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    I'm referring to the Ned joint my man.. The same area you referenced in regards to the "corruption of paradise".
    Ned's corruption occurred well before Mr. Lorenz moved his Inn there.

    From what I've read and heard on his interviews, Dan Fogelberg noticed the changes as well; part of what motivated him to leave his studio/home near Ned and move down South.

    For Dan Fogelberg, Eden changed so he went and bought a new one. When you're rich you can do that I 'spose. The rest of us are stuck watching the scenery change.
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  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by insect_o_man
    You just reminded me of her...
    You don't make friends often do you? Sure, I'm a regular hippie. My SUV gets 12 mpg on a good day.

    I was simply suggesting that using the owner of the Black Forest as a historical witness to support your whining about the "corruption of paradise" might not be the best point of reference.

    Please.. continue with your Fogelberg references. We care, really.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    You don't make friends often do you?
    Only when they are worth making.

    If you hadn't reminded me of her, I wouldn't have had a reason to tell the Drunk Stuffed Duck story. You stimulated the memory, I recalled and responded. Pretty basic.

    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    My SUV gets 12 mpg on a good day.
    Proud of your Automo-Idol and its tyrannical appetite? We all seem to be...

    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    I was simply suggesting that using the owner of the Black Forest as a historical witness to support your whining about the "corruption of paradise" might not be the best point of reference.
    Paradise? Sometimes it's a state that never materializes - as was the case in Black Hawk; the ideal of it being that which was corrupted, and the town along with it.

    Other times, as in Ned, it is the perception of a real state that exists in the physical world... a state which then changes leading to the perception of corruption.

    Mr. Lorenz has lived through and played a role in both; and as I said before, he also lived through the changes in Pre WWII Germany - and observes there are paralells between then and now.

    The trend towards hyperinflation, for instance. He pointed that out in 2004, before I'd ever heard of "Sub-Prime".

    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Please.. continue with your Fogelberg references. We care, really.
    Mr. Fogelberg was a master musician, singer, arranger, and thinker / song-writer.

    Familiar with his work? The Innocent Age was his master piece.

    Guess what town he said was the inspiration for his album "The Netherlands".
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