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  1. #1
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    Firecracker 50 owner in hot water with Forest Service

    FYI...bummer. Hope it works out ok.

    Article from Summit Daily summitdaily.com:

    Jeff Westcott, owner and promoter of last weekend's Firecracker 50 mountain bike race in Breckenridge, could lose his special events permit as a result of taking motorized equipment onto a designated non-motorized Forest Service trail to clear snow in preparation for the Independence Day race.

    Westcott holds a recreation/special event permit for the Firecracker 50 and other events on Forest Service lands, Forest Service spokesman Pat Thrasher said. That permit has terms and conditions that must be met according to the Code of Federal Regulations.

    “There was heavy snowfall this year, so as the event was approaching, part of the route was under snow,” he said. Without prior approval from Forest Service officials, Westcott mechanically removed snow from Little French Trail off French Gulch Road in the week leading up to the race.

    Thrasher said Westcott is facing administrative action that could go so far as revoking his permit, though exact action is to be determined. He faces two tickets for violations of the provisions of the code.

    “The Forest Service recognizes that events like the Firecracker 50 do support the local economy ... these events are appropriate uses of national forest lands,” Thrasher said, adding that Westcott has been a permit holder for years.

    “But, we have a responsibility to protect public safety and protect resources we're managing,” he added. He said anyone who uses the forest should do so responsibly.

    Westcott didn't comment on the possibility of losing his permit, though he did say he would accept the ramifications of making the call to remove snow that was “5 feet deep in places for several hundred linear feet” along the trail.

    “It would have required (about) 160 person hours to shovel it,” he said, “which was not accomplishable by race day — or not enough to allow for sufficient drying — which we were able to accomplish. I made the call to put a machine on it. I'm prepared for whatever legal ramifications the Forest Service comes back to me with.”

    Ken Waugh, Dillon Ranger District recreation staff officer, said Westcott is also permitted for the six races in the Summit Mountain Challenge, the Breck Crest Mountain Marathon and the Fall Classic. Breckenridge Open Space and Trails planner Scott Reid said if there's a blight on Westcott's record with the Forest Service, it could affect permitting through the town, as the two cooperate together with the county for permitting many events. A permit isn't valid if the other two permits don't exist, Reid said.

    “I feel badly about the potential for a damaged relationship, but I think my 11-year track record with the Forest Service means hopefully the relationship will continue,” Westcott said.

  2. #2
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    Seriously!!!Seriously!!! Did anyone see tracks or damage to the trail from equipment used to move snow??? I saw all kinds of damage to trails caused from water and gravity! Give me a break, its not about "motorized vehicles". I really hope the town of Breck realizes the ECONOMIC benefits from events like this and does something the help this guy out! My god, in this day and age this is the feed back someone gets after all the energy and effort put forth to put on this race??? Get your head out of your a$$ Breckenridge forest service!
    Flame this post: sell your bike and and get the hell off the forum!

  3. #3
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    No one is above the idiocy of the Forest Circus.

    Respect for manning up and taking all the blame.

  4. #4
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    he should have used draft horses



    the bottom line is that he broke the rules

    now he must face the music

    maybe next year if the snow is deep, the racerbois can "train" by doing some manual snow removal for their event

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken View Post
    he should have used draft horses



    the bottom line is that he broke the rules

    now he must face the music

    maybe next year if the snow is deep, the racerbois can "train" by doing some manual snow removal for their event
    It only took TWO posts!!! Koolaid drinking b***h, walk! No wonder why this kind of crap is so prevalent! I give up!

  6. #6
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    Don't blame Breckenridge. And this is not that serious and will quickly blow over. Examples must be set so other 'motorized' morons do not follow suit...
    Tact is for people not witty enough to be sarcastic...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by wahfool View Post
    It only took TWO posts!!! Koolaid drinking b***h, walk! No wonder why this kind of crap is so prevalent! I give up!
    does this mean you and your kind won't be volunteering for any trail work?

    you are entitled to whine and stamp your feet, however

    how much energy does that take, or is it just another part of your training?

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    suprised it took this long for this to show up

    the bottom line is the area in question is a non-motorized area

    why is it ok for someone to think they are above the rules and do what they want

    meanwhile motorized off road users are losing miles of trails and roads in the same general area the town county and forest service are shutting them down left and right yet
    everyone can look the other way because its the cash cow firecracker 50?

    So if he can drive heavy equipment up there I can start riding my snowmobile up there this winter right?

    the best punishment would be reopening up miles of closed trails and roads to motorized use

    That part of town used to be void of anyone, thanks to the race the summer time use is through the roof and the winter time ski traffic has gotten even stupider.

  9. #9
    zrm
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    My background with the Firecracker: I designed the course and have worked with Jeff over the years on the event.

    Ripper: Little French and Humbug Hill area has long been popular with Mtn bikers. The Fall Classic first used the Little French Flume in 1987 (I helped cut out a lot of the blowdown trees). There are literally hundreds of miles of trails and Jeep roads open to motorized use in the greater Golden Horseshoe/Swan river area. The trails that I assume you are talking about were simply burned through the woods more than a few through wetlands and fens with throttle and tire with little or no consideration to impacts or sustainability. The Moto folks are getting shut down due to their own irresponsible habits and lack of common sense restraint. Some folks in the motorized community are trying their best to turn that around and bring stewardship to the vernacular of the motorized community and doing what they can but they are not the majority.

    RE Wescott: He did what he thought he needed to do to provide a good experience for the racers. There are not a lot of good alternatives to Little French without totally redoing the entire course which would have been tough to do. Jeff knew what the rules for the area are and is now taking his lumps. To his credit, he has not tried to shirk his responsibility and is talking the consequences like a man.
    Little French is mostly rock and we knew that wetness would not be an issue there. There are places on the course that are a lot more susceptible to damage and Jeff did put a bunch of work into draining them as best as possible. The modification to the course was to avoid an area that was a sustained total mud pit. (An area that BTW has been totally torn to pieces by motor vehicles) Jeff does take stewardship seriously and has the resume to show it.

    The snow was cleared with a Bobcat, hardly a piece of heavy equipment and as anticipated, the impact from the machine is negligible. Little French is mostly rock with very little organic soil. That said, the use prescription for Little French allows only non motorized recreation, that's clear. However, I believe the prescription can allow motorized use to private property under the terms of a use permit or other authorized use related management. What the FS would have said if Westy had gone to them six weeks ago and said, "here's the situation, what do you think?" is hard to say. In hindsight, that was probably the thing to do but it's water under the bridge now.

    Bottom Line: The paper is making it sound very serious, but I know for a fact that Jeff has a very good relationship with the Ranger District and while the FS is obligated to enforce the rules, especially when it's a high profile and let's not sugar coat it - blatant disregard of the rules, they'll most likely cite him, he'll pay the fine, and they'll put him on "probation" and call it good. Westy would expect no less and not take it personally. The folks at the Ranger District are actually very reasonable and do their best to do their job in a very difficult environment of complex rules and politics from all sides. I don't think anyone at the Dillon Ranger District is after Westy's head. The SDN like all papers, is just looking for a story, which is OK, that's what papers do.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    The Moto folks are getting shut down due to their own irresponsible habits and lack of common sense restraint.
    irony

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    Wait - Little French Gulch Trail is designated non-motorized? Was I hallucinating or did I pass several dirt bikes descending that trail DURING the race on my second lap?

  12. #12
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken View Post
    irony
    Irony? I assume you mean to compare Jeffs lack of retraint with the moto folks lack of restraint. OK, let's compare.

    With the motos you have a group of people since the mid to late 90s systematically creating new trails using tire and horsepower on a combination of public and private property without permission. As soon as one new route is burned in, another tends to branch off of it, it seems the folks using the area up there can't even stay on their own trails.
    Most of these trails are steep and on the fall line so they become deeply rutted and eroded at which point parallel routes are created. Some areas have three routes next to one another as one becomes too nasty even for the motos to use. In addition, at least two of these trails go directly through extensive wetlands, one of which is a fairly rare fen with numerous braids as one mud hole becomes too deep and mucky to navigate, another is created.
    When called on this behavior, most (not all, as mentioned before, some folks in the moto community are trying to help) of the moto guys try to justify it, poo poo the impacts, and paint themselves as victims.

    With Jeff you have a person who used a bobcat to clear snow from a rocky established former jeep road that is going back to single track that is in a non motorized prescription. He knew that while in violation of the law, little damage to the area would occur and it didn't. In an area where there was a lot of organic soil, snow, and mud, he dug it out by hand and spend several days on drainage.
    Lack of restraint? I suppose you can look at that way. He did have alternatives such as trying to get 20+ volunteers to shovel all day long for a day or two or completely redesign the course but neither seemed attractive or feasible at the time.
    When called on his behavior, Jeff admitted his guilt, apologized, is going to work on fixing an areas impacted by the race (Little French is not one of those areas, no damage occured) on his own dime, and will without complaint, pay the fine.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but personally, I don't see a great deal of irony.

  13. #13
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by perrygeo View Post
    Wait - Little French Gulch Trail is designated non-motorized? Was I hallucinating or did I pass several dirt bikes descending that trail DURING the race on my second lap?

    It's my understanding that Search and rescue was up there for an evac during the race. That might have been them although SCRG generally uses an ATV for that so it might have been illegal moto use.

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    shoulda met my bestest mexican friends manual and labor

    they woulda cleared that snow, all you needed was a whip, alittle spanish, and some burritos

    now have my right to ride my snowmobile up there this winter, can't wait!!!! sure beats that long slog on the skis

  15. #15
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripper roo View Post
    shoulda met my bestest mexican friends manual and labor

    they woulda cleared that snow, all you needed was a whip, alittle spanish, and some burritos

    now have my right to ride my snowmobile up there this winter, can't wait!!!! sure beats that long slog on the skis
    Always appreciate informed, insightful and intelligent commentary.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waafoo View Post
    I give up!
    Really?
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  17. #17
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    Why not just have the racers deal with the snow? Maybe hop off the bike and slip and slide through it. That could make for an interesting section.
    "Don't take life so serious, son . . . it ain't no how permanent." - Porky Pine

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    The real IRONY is the damage done by the bobcat is insignificant to the trail damage due to bad etiquette by the racers(skidding, passing, etc.). Rode up there the other day and it is worked. They should've just rerouted around little french and all the other sloppy areas. i still can't believe they had the race on the super muddy sections from the tank to nitemare

    After most of these summit races it looks like a stampede of bulls went down the trail....GOOD JOB!

    Flame away...talk some sh+t....but you're lying to yourself if you think it's not true.

    end rant/

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    Irony? I assume you mean to compare Jeffs lack of retraint with the moto folks lack of restraint. OK, let's compare.
    Hate to draw the parallel here, but Jeff's mentality is really no different from the illegal motos. Jeff doesn't hold these events for the "public good", he holds them for profit. He saw the potential loss of personal profit in either canceling or rerouting the race and figured the most economical route was to just pay the eventual fine. No different than the moto guys that figure their own justifications (all our trails are being taken away, etc) outweigh the potential risk of the fine and knowingly do what they please in violation with the usage rules. You can't point fingers at the motos and defend Jeff in the same breath.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CO_freeride View Post
    The real IRONY is the damage done by the bobcat is insignificant to the trail damage due to bad etiquette by the racers(skidding, passing, etc.). Rode up there the other day and it is worked. They should've just rerouted around little french and all the other sloppy areas. i still can't believe they had the race on the super muddy sections from the tank to nitemare

    After most of these summit races it looks like a stampede of bulls went down the trail....GOOD JOB!

    Flame away...talk some sh+t....but you're lying to yourself if you think it's not true.

    end rant/
    I had just the opposite thought when I rode sections of the trails after the Firecracker 50. I was amazed at what good shape the trails were in after 750 riders had just been through there the day before.

    Quite honestly I couldn't tell there had been a race on Nightmare on Baldy, Moonstone, Trail of Tears, etc when I rode it on Tuesday. The 4WD road just before Nightmare looked a little beat up but not much more than usual.

    I also didn't notice much in the way of litter or debris, not counting the pork and bean cans from 100 years ago.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    Irony? I assume you mean to compare Jeffs lack of retraint with the moto folks lack of restraint. OK, let's compare.

    With the motos you have a group of people since the mid to late 90s systematically creating new trails using tire and horsepower on a combination of public and private property without permission. As soon as one new route is burned in, another tends to branch off of it, it seems the folks using the area up there can't even stay on their own trails.
    minus the horsepower, look at the mtb poachers and tell us all how they are different

    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    When called on this behavior, most (not all, as mentioned before, some folks in the moto community are trying to help) of the moto guys try to justify it, poo poo the impacts, and paint themselves as victims.
    see above response^

    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    Lack of restraint? I suppose you can look at that way. He did have alternatives such as trying to get 20+ volunteers to shovel all day long for a day or two or completely redesign the course but neither seemed attractive or feasible at the time.
    i don't stutter-type, attractive, feasible, or not, he had no right to go the route he did...let's just call it selfish...oh yeah, you're trying to paint him as the victim here

    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but personally, I don't see a great deal of irony.
    abe los ojos

  22. #22
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    Why did the snow need to be removed in the first place? I get it if this were "Ride the Rockies" and you had a bunch of elderly people on hybrids, but isn't the Firecracker 50 an actual mountain bike race?

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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter View Post
    Why did the snow need to be removed in the first place? I get it if this were "Ride the Rockies" and you had a bunch of elderly people on hybrids, but isn't the Firecracker 50 an actual mountain bike race?
    outstanding

    knowing just how seriousszzz amateur racerbois can be, the backlash would have killed the promoter's opportunity to make money next year

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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken View Post
    outstanding

    knowing just how seriousszzz amateur racerbois can be, the backlash would have killed the promoter's opportunity to make money next year
    I think I'll promote the Fireroad 500 and make MILLIONS!!!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken View Post
    he should have used draft horses



    the bottom line is that he broke the rules

    now he must face the music

    maybe next year if the snow is deep, the racerbois can "train" by doing some manual snow removal for their event

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter View Post
    Why did the snow need to be removed in the first place? I get it if this were "Ride the Rockies" and you had a bunch of elderly people on hybrids, but isn't the Firecracker 50 an actual mountain bike race?
    It would have thrown off the exact mileage and calorie count on the bike computers - team kits would get dirty - you can't eat a goo properly while carrying a bike... Just unacceptable.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter View Post
    Why did the snow need to be removed in the first place? I get it if this were "Ride the Rockies" and you had a bunch of elderly people on hybrids, but isn't the Firecracker 50 an actual mountain bike race?
    So do you regularly hike a bike through hundreds of feet of thigh deep snow?
    Golden Bike Park

    Golden Connector Trails need your support!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    So do you regularly hike a bike through hundreds of feet of thigh deep snow?
    Hiked the last quarter mile of waist deep to get to Yankee Doodle Lake last week. Goes with the territory of riding early season high country.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    So do you regularly hike a bike through hundreds of feet of thigh deep snow?
    It happens.

    Welcome to Colorado.

  30. #30
    zrm
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    QUOTE=topmounter;8230694]Why did the snow need to be removed in the first place? [/QUOTE]
    1. So people would stay on the actual durable rocky trail and not walk/try to ride around onyo soft/organic and actually do some real damage. 2. Because the bottleneck of that many people pushing bikes through that much snow would be a total clusterf**k

    QUOTE=topmounter;8230694] I get it if this were "Ride the Rockies" and you had a bunch of elderly people on hybrids, but isn't the Firecracker 50 an actual mountain bike race?[/QUOTE]

    Why don't you ask the folks who actually did the race for their opinions on that?

  31. #31
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    Hate to draw the parallel here, but Jeff's mentality is really no different from the illegal motos. Jeff doesn't hold these events for the "public good", he holds them for profit. He saw the potential loss of personal profit in either canceling or rerouting the race and figured the most economical route was to just pay the eventual fine. No different than the moto guys that figure their own justifications (all our trails are being taken away, etc) outweigh the potential risk of the fine and knowingly do what they please in violation with the usage rules. You can't point fingers at the motos and defend Jeff in the same breath.
    You may be able to make something of an argument on the first part of your post (although maybe you should ask all the folks who participated in the event or the charities who have received donations from the proceeds of the race whether or not any "public good" is accomplished) but I think there's a real difference between the actual impacts of what the motos do in the GH on a daily basis up there verses Jeff using a Bobcat to dig out the trail in question.

    Jeff didn't create any new trails and the impacts to Little French are very minor, hardly noticeable really (yes, I've been up there, the day before the race and a couple days after). Also, The race course was changed because the area to the north of Lincoln Park was a mud bog and the Gold Belle road was totally unusable. So he used the South Ridge road/Push Hill/Side door - all of which was totally dry.
    The General Jackson Placer road (parallels Baldy) kind of raised an eyebrow from me when I saw he was going to use it instead of Baldy but I walked it and the Nightmare transfer (Deeply rutted jeep road) today and was quite surprised by the lack of impact.(Jeff did some pre race drainage work on those sections and it really helped.
    The other one that concerned me was the perpetually wet section of the Pride trail and it wasn't too bad. Plus, on Monday and on Wednesday of this week, The Jeff has committed his resources in partnership with the FDRD to build some turnpike through that section and take care of it once and for all. If any of you want to volunteer, go to the FDRD or Mav sports website for details.
    I climbed Nightmare on Baldy the same day I did Little French and the impacts to that trail are minimal. I haven't been on Barney Ford/Moonstone so I can't comment on them.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post

    Why don't you ask the folks who actually did the race for their opinions on that?

    Just based on the promoter's actions (knowingly defying USFS rules), I'd say I know all I need to know. Maybe the snow field(s) were completely and totally impassable (the article doesn't say they were), but apparently the promoter made the decision to do what he did before the riders became involved.

    I'm not saying that changing the course to suit the expectations of the racers is a bad thing (if done the right way). But obviously in this case the promoter has (potentially) jeopardized this and future events, as well as the image of mountain biking among the general public to suit his clientele and save some "man hours" of labor.

    After pushing my bike with the wheels locked and skidding for miles in ultra-muddy (sticky clay) mountain bike races back East, I can't say that picking my bike up and crossing a snow field has ever been a big deal (yeah sure, your feet get cold and wet, but they warm up and/or dry out pretty quick). Regardless, this is all probably no big deal and the USFS will give him a little slap on the hand and forget about the whole thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter View Post
    I think I'll promote the Fireroad 500 and make MILLIONS!!!

  34. #34
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    Regardless, this is all probably no big deal.
    There's a lot of stuff going on out there that is a bigger deal than this, but neither Jeff of the folks at the Ranger District take it lightly.

    and the USFS will give him a little slap on the hand
    I don't think the fine is thousands of dollars but it ain't pocket change either. You might do some simple math on the event and assume he makes a ton of money off the event but people tend to underestimate the expenses of a race like this. What's left over after the bills are paid is probably a good chunk of Jeff's yearly income and when you put it in the context of all the months and months of work that goes into putting on a race like the F50, he and most race promoters would probably be better off washing dishes for all the hours that go into it. The vast majority of race promoters do it out of passion. It's hardly a lucrative enterprise.

    and forget about the whole thing
    Oh they won't forget. I know the players involved and they won't forget. They won't obsess about it and everyone will move on, but they won't forget. Jeff burned a match or two and both parties know it.

  35. #35
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    It's a double track trail that a Jeep could drive up. It was made to haul stuff to and from a mine. There's no reason for it to be non-motorized, like many Jeep roads in Summit County that are being closed to motorized.
    Keep the Country country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    It's hardly a lucrative enterprise.
    lucrative or not, he's making money on this enterprise

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    It's a double track trail that a Jeep could drive up. It was made to haul stuff to and from a mine. There's no reason for it to be non-motorized, like many Jeep roads in Summit County that are being closed to motorized.
    Been closed to motor vehicles for a long time. Not to mention you have to cross through the mountain meadows subdivision private property which has a public easement for non motorized traffic to get there. There are hundreds of miles of jeep roads in Summit County that remain open. Actually not a lot of Jeep roads are slated for closure in the TMP. Most of the closures to motorized use is to user created motorcycle and ATV routes. Some jeep roads that are redundant and parallel, dead end spurs or have horrible resource damage like the north side parameter of Lincoln Meadow are being closed, but Jeepers aren't loosing that much. You can drive a Jeep for miles above treeline around Montezuma, down into Clear Creek or Park County or down into the Swan then up the GH via Georgia, or Rock Island, or Summit, or Galina Gulches and down into Breckenridge and then you can drive up Pennsylvania creek over to Indiana Creek then over the divide into South Park. There are no shortage of open jeep roads in Summit County.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    You can drive up Pennsylvania creek over to Indiana Creek.
    I heard those are closing as part of the new TMP. Hope that was an incorrect rumor. Those and Sally Barber Rd are the main ones I was thinking of.
    Keep the Country country.

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    You people are retarded. I walked the Little french section during the race and saw up close that there was no trail damage. Move on people.

    Walt

  40. #40
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    scummit county is closed

    Forrest service just issued a immediate closure.

    Just heard it this morning, summit county has been shut down by the forrest service. All the trails are closed to everyone except for hikers from boulder county. No one is allowed to ride their bikes anywhere and motorized use is over. So take your vacation somewhere else, don't bother coming up here, due to rain, dead trees, snow removal (our economy survives on snow growth not removal), and poor trail use it has been deemed that no one is allowed to use the trails here. Only fat tourists from iowa, texas, and nebraska will be allowed into summit county for the rest of the summer. So don't plan on any epic rides or racing up here for the rest of the summer. Got it?!

  41. #41
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    I heard those are closing as part of the new TMP. Hope that was an incorrect rumor. Those and Sally Barber Rd are the main ones I was thinking of.
    I'd have to double check but I'm pretty sure that closure is for winter snowmobile use, not summer motor vehicle use.
    The 360 trail is slated for closure but that's been torn to shreds and getting worse and worse for years and IMO should be closed.

    Sally Barber is almost entirely on open space and private property. Part of the reason for it's closure to motor vehicles was due to requests from the private property owners. Plus the public comment in support for closing it to motor traffic, mostly in the winter but also in the summer was pretty overwhelmingly supportive. In addition, motor vehicle representitives had the power of veto during the Golden Horseshoe travel plan process and didn't put much prioroty to Sally Barber Rd.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter View Post
    It happens.

    Welcome to Colorado.
    It may happen, but I wouldn't pay to do it, and IMO, isn't really mountain biking. YMMV
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    Hiked the last quarter mile of waist deep to get to Yankee Doodle Lake last week. Goes with the territory of riding early season high country.
    Do you do it often enough to consider it race training?
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    It may happen, but I wouldn't pay to do it, and IMO, isn't really mountain biking. YMMV


    Isn't really mtbiking, get real the snowpack was at record levels this year. If your rides have not involved some hiking over snowfields YOU are not a REAL mtbiker. Stay on the safe bike path and hang up your knobbies, as a forum athority, I'm revoking your right to trails.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    you must be beside yourself with anger

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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter View Post
    It happens.

    Welcome to Colorado.
    It's a mountain bike race right ?
    Wait till the week before ? It would be a pretty good bet that with that kind of snow it was not going to melt for some time.

    Seriously, was there no other alternative to getting this kind of bad publicity out in the paper for all of the mountain biking community he for better or worse represents to the open minded general public.
    Can his actions effect legislation and support for mountain biking that many have worked to improve in Summit County with something other than races ?

    Come on, is it really that big a deal ?

    Just wondering.

    The should have called Dog the Bounty Hunter on his A$$.
    http://www.summitdaily.com/article/2...ntProfile=1055
    Last edited by glovemtb; 07-13-2011 at 03:51 PM.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    Isn't really mtbiking, get real the snowpack was at record levels this year. If your rides have not involved some hiking over snowfields YOU are not a REAL mtbiker. Stay on the safe bike path and hang up your knobbies, as a forum athority, I'm revoking your right to trails.
    I didn't say I've never hiked through snow with my bike, just IMO it's not really mtbing.
    If it were, my bike would be a heckuva lot lighter, and I'd have one of those shoulder pad/ tool storage combo things that were in style back in '86. Or maybe some kinda quick removal skis that I could strap on to it, and then I'd want to carry snowshoes....
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  48. #48
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    I don't think the fine is thousands of dollars but it ain't pocket change either. You might do some simple math on the event and assume he makes a ton of money off the event but people tend to underestimate the expenses of a race like this. What's left over after the bills are paid is probably a good chunk of Jeff's yearly income and when you put it in the context of all the months and months of work that goes into putting on a race like the F50, he and most race promoters would probably be better off washing dishes for all the hours that go into it. The vast majority of race promoters do it out of passion. It's hardly a lucrative enterprise.
    .
    How many entries? Cost of entry?

    After having personally seen the Triple Bypass books, you'd have to be a retard (no political correctness here) to lose money on a bicycle event. And they pay county poeple, city people, cops, food, etc. etc. The F50 is making plenty of money.

  49. #49
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    How many entries? Cost of entry?

    After having personally seen the Triple Bypass books, you'd have to be a retard (no political correctness here) to lose money on a bicycle event. And they pay county poeple, city people, cops, food, etc. etc. The F50 is making plenty of money.
    F50 has a field limit of 750. Not sure what the entry is. Last I heard it was around $75. You also need to remember that a certain number of those are comps. not a huge percentage or anything, but almost all races will have at least a few comps given for one reason or another.

    Triple bypass is a few thousand or so, isn't it? I can't remember what their limit is. I know there used to be no limit and it was really huge. Regardless, I didn't say Jeff or other race promoters can't and don't make money. I said it isn't the highly lucrative business you might think. Having been a race promoter myself I know all to well that you are always the last one to get paid and after you add up what's left over for you and compare it to the hours you put into it, you usually figure you'd have been better off working for wages but you do it out of passion for the sport.

  50. #50
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    F50 has a field limit of 750. Not sure what the entry is. Last I heard it was around $75. You also need to remember that a certain number of those are comps. not a huge percentage or anything, but almost all races will have at least a few comps given for one reason or another.

    Triple bypass is a few thousand or so, isn't it? I can't remember what their limit is. I know there used to be no limit and it was really huge. Regardless, I didn't say Jeff or other race promoters can't and don't make money. I said it isn't the highly lucrative business you might think. Having been a race promoter myself I know all to well that you are always the last one to get paid and after you add up what's left over for you and compare it to the hours you put into it, you usually figure you'd have been better off working for wages but you do it out of passion for the sport.
    750 x $75 and they have sponsors, if I recall correctly. I also believe Breck helps out. Don't kid yourself, he's making a good living off of this race.

    TBP is 2500 entries (might be up a little more than that) at $130 per entry. They do not give out that many comps. The BoD and a few charity auction handouts if I remember. They also have sponsors and volunteer help. But, they cover quite a bit more terrain across three counties and many towns. They also have four or five stocked rest areas and a big dinner at the end. Even with all of this, they can still give away $90,000 to charity, operate the entire org for a year, and still bank money. I won't say how much more than the 90K it is, but lets just say it is almost the same. Also, it is now run (the ride) by a private company, who is making money off of it, and TE still banks the same. It will start falling off as the popularity of the ride has begun to diminish and they lost some moola on the return triple.

    If FC50 does half the business (which I believe it does), that's a decent payout for one event.

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