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  1. #1
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    Drones in SE Colorado

    poorrichards blog: A 51st State for Armed Robotic DronesWeaponized UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles)

    "7 million acres (or 11,000 square miles) of land in the southeast corner of Colorado, and 60 million acres of air space (or 94,000 square miles) over Colorado and New Mexico would be given over to special forces testing and training in the use of remote-controlled flying murder machines. The full state of Colorado is itself 104,000 square miles. Rhode Island is 1,000 square miles. Virginia, where I live, is 43,000 square miles.

    The U.S. military (including Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines) is proceeding with this plan in violation of the public will, new state legislation on private property rights, an exceptionally strong federal court order, and a funding ban passed by the United States Congress, and in the absence of any approved Environmental Impact Statement."

    "Ken Salazar was the military's hired servant. He had been Attorney General of Colorado from 1999 to 2005. He was a U.S. Senator from 2005 to 2009. President Barack Obama has made him Secretary of the Interior. Around 2007, Jean Aguerre recounts, Salazar held a public meeting in Pueblo, Col., with about 300 ranchers packing the room. He turned his palms up to the ceiling and announced: "I will lift the golden curtain that falls at the end of El Paso county so that prosperity can flow onto the eastern plains." This meant that military spending was economically beneficial. Military expansion, people were being told, was good for them -- even if it stole their families' land, and regardless of what momentum it created for the launching and continuing of wars.

    "Instead of putting together frameworks for nonproliferation," says Aguerre, "Ken Salazar worked to destroy the last intact short grass prairie because the money was too good."


    not 1 more acre!: Home
    Last edited by UncleTrail; 10-29-2011 at 08:38 PM.

  2. #2
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    Flying murder machines?

    Did you get that article from the nutjobs protesting across from the Costco in Arvada today? Even Liburatards aren't against using drones. Must be some kind of Ron Paul cult.

    Edit: I saw them after I exercised my 2nd amendment right at the Silver Bullet Shooting Range in Wheat Ridge.

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    I heard a rumor that they were going to start using shuttlers on Apex for drone target practice.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    Flying murder machines?

    Did you get that article from the nutjobs protesting across from the Costco in Arvada today? Even Liburatards aren't against using drones. Must be some kind of Ron Paul cult.

    Edit: I saw them after I exercised my 2nd amendment right at the Silver Bullet Shooting Range in Wheat Ridge.
    Well, going to the shooting range is one thing, taking a life is quite another.

    If you can get past the rhetoric you will find that the government is illegally confiscating private land through condemnation. Maybe your grandma's house is next?

    I remember dove hunting when I was young. I was always taught to give animals a sporting chance. They had to be flying. Shooting a bird sitting in a tree, on a power line, on the ground, is something I have never done, nor something I wish to advocate, no matter the prize.

  5. #5
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    I'm willing to give the military thousands of square miles of land to play with.... in Afghanistan.

  6. #6
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    I'm against taking land, but honestly I have no problem with the drones (unless they have red eyes and start speaking with an Austrian accent...).

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    Quote Originally Posted by guyechka View Post
    i'm willing to give the military thousands of square miles of land to play with.... In afghanistan.
    nimby

  9. #9
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    failing to make the connection here...

    why do they need 7 million acres of land, when the drones fly through the air? are they afraid of the ramifications of the 1 in a something-billion chance that a drone crashes into someone's farmhouse? or they want to bomb all 7 million acres with drones?

    military planes fly training routes and have dedicated mid-high altitude airspace over civilian areas all over this country, including colorado. why do drones need land set aside from uav only use? why not just dedicate the airspace from 50ft agl to 10,000ft agl to drones, set aside already acquired land for bombing/missile practice, and call it good?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomit View Post
    failing to make the connection here...

    why do they need 7 million acres of land, when the drones fly through the air? are they afraid of the ramifications of the 1 in a something-billion chance that a drone crashes into someone's farmhouse? or they want to bomb all 7 million acres with drones?

    military planes fly training routes and have dedicated mid-high altitude airspace over civilian areas all over this country, including colorado. why do drones need land set aside from uav only use? why not just dedicate the airspace from 50ft agl to 10,000ft agl to drones, set aside already acquired land for bombing/missile practice, and call it good?
    not 1 more acre!: Under Threat

    Piñon Canyon Maneuver Site

    "At an estimated cost to taxpayers of $3 billion dollars, The Pentagon and its contractors also
    announced plans to train a new Combat Aviation Brigade – 2800 soldiers, 600 ground
    vehicles and 200 Apache, Chinook and Black Hawk helicopters – at the Piñon Canyon
    Maneuver Site. If not stopped, Combat Aviation Brigades will enable Unmanned Aerial Systems
    (drones and other robotic weapons) to maneuver from the ground up throughout the entire 94,000
    square mile region.

    The proposal is part of a plan to establish the largest Joint Forces Future Combat Systems
    training site in the world by expanding Joint Forces Special Operations Command air space
    across northern New Mexico and southern Colorado for robotic warfare development,
    low altitude flights and testing of high-tech lethal weaponry. "

  11. #11
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    I'm confused too. What does it mean that "acres of air space" will be "given over"? Why in the world do they need that much area to test these things? Why is the Santa Fe Trail on the map?

  12. #12
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    The aliens have big plans for you too.

    Ready to fry chicken anyone?

  13. #13
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    lulz^

    Last edited by KarateChicken; 10-30-2011 at 08:31 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    Well, going to the shooting range is one thing, taking a life is quite another.

    If you can get past the rhetoric you will find that the government is illegally confiscating private land through condemnation. Maybe your grandma's house is next?

    I remember dove hunting when I was young. I was always taught to give animals a sporting chance. They had to be flying. Shooting a bird sitting in a tree, on a power line, on the ground, is something I have never done, nor something I wish to advocate, no matter the prize.
    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TXZMZ-XvvzI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  15. #15
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    I'm willing to give the military some land.... north of Death Valley.



    They already screwed it up with nukes, so they can have it.

  16. #16
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    Hey people. Just FYI

    Do your homework.

    Sadly, you might even find out your uncle is a wacko.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman View Post
    Hey people. Just FYI

    Do your homework.

    Sadly, you might even find out your uncle is a wacko.
    I'm all ears. Why am I crazy?

    Because I believe Salazar and Udall are hypocrites for proposing wilderness area after wilderness area and banning simple bicycles from these areas, and then turning around and stealing private property for expansion of a military base to drive tanks and perform low altitude aerial maneuvers?


    Plenty of facts here:
    Pinon Canyon Expansion Opposition Coalition

    and here:
    The War Next Door - Page 1 - News - Denver - Westword
    ""The most surprising thing is how intact the larger landscape is," says CSU ecologist Rondeau. "The ranchers have been actively managing it. It's really a credit to the private landowners that we found as much as we did, and most of it was in pretty good condition. They're good stewards of the land."

    Ever been to Ft. Hood? It's not far from where I grew up. If that what stewardship is to the government, then I'm not the one who's crazy.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    I'm all ears. Why am I crazy?

    Because I believe Salazar and Udall are hypocrites for proposing wilderness area after wilderness area and banning simple bicycles from these areas, and then turning around and stealing private property for expansion of a military base to drive tanks and perform low altitude aerial maneuvers?

    PCEOC ----- Pinon Canyon Expansion Opposition Coalition: Proposed AF Fly-overs in Northern NM and Southern CO part of expansion?

    Plenty of facts here:
    Pinon Canyon Expansion Opposition Coalition

    and here:
    The War Next Door - Page 1 - News - Denver - Westword
    ""The most surprising thing is how intact the larger landscape is," says CSU ecologist Rondeau. "The ranchers have been actively managing it. It's really a credit to the private landowners that we found as much as we did, and most of it was in pretty good condition. They're good stewards of the land."

    Ever been to Ft. Hood? It's not far from where I grew up. If that what stewardship is to the government, then I'm not the one who's crazy.
    Notice how all the "wilderness" areas are in the scenic mountains and not on the plains? When, in fact, one acre of prairie has at least a magnitude greater amount of biodiversity than an acre of forest.

    Also, if you have never seen the Purgatoiree River Canyon, you're missing out. It's too bad the military gets to destroy all that natural prairie land.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman View Post
    Hey people. Just FYI

    Do your homework.

    Sadly, you might even find out your uncle is a wacko.
    yabbut, he sure brings tha lulz

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken View Post
    yabbut, he sure brings tha lulz

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCS5280 View Post
    I heard a rumor that they were going to start using shuttlers on Apex for drone target practice.
    yeah, but only on odd days.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    Flying murder machines?

    Even Liburatards aren't against using drones.
    Now that someone else is in office, this seems to be the case.....


    The MTB content in this thread is awesome.....

  23. #23
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    As a pilot, these things are scary for other reasons too. Most importantly, the ever important "see and avoid" concept. Don't trust these things any further than I can toss them. And don't say technology works, because I see it fail day in and day out.

    As for the other issues here, I'd have to read into it more to get a better idea on what to think.

  24. #24
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    I don't like seeing this either, but the article doesn't give any project start dates for this nightmare. Hopefully it won't get off the ground.

    This just continues to show Eisenhower warnings seem to be more and more justified.

    "We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

    We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MulletSlayer View Post
    I don't like seeing this either, but the article doesn't give any project start dates for this nightmare. Hopefully it won't get off the ground.
    Don't kid yourself, they've been flying drones and blimps overhead and for many years.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2tHk9Q3Fv6g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    Last edited by UncleTrail; 10-30-2011 at 12:06 PM.

  26. #26
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    The FAA has already started the process of spending many billions of dollars replacing the current air traffic control system with a system that can support the integration of piloted, drone and autonomous aircraft (FAA NextGen ATC System, un-manned aircraft discussed here).

    The drone industry is already developing, marketing and testing drones for domestic "security" and "law enforcement" applications. You can order these things "Weaponized" with "Lethal" or "Non-Lethal" (e.g. Ballistic Batons, Tazers, etc.) armament and they fly at 600FT where you can not see or hear them from the ground.

    An example of one of these companies is here: Vanguard Defense Industries - Law Enforcement


    Too expensive for your local law enforcement agency? I have the Deal of the Century for you...

    Obtain a Grant

    By nature of the Shadowhawk’s unique capabilities, federal, state and local law enforcement agencies can obtain 100% funding to purchase and maintain a UAS of their own. For further information on applicable grant funding please click the link below or contact us directly for further information.

    FEMA: FY 2011 Homeland Security Grant Program (HSGP)

    i.e.... FREE!!! (for LEO's participating in the HSIN).

  27. #27
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    OT: Seminar NOT about LGM UFOs

    Where do you guys think the science of aircraft design is today?
    Given by MUFON, but it about very real human made UFOs
    "That's Classified" Air Force UFO Secrets Revealed by Mike Schratt - YouTube
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Where do you guys think the science of aircraft design is today?
    Given by MUFON, but it about very real human made UFOs
    "That's Classified" Air Force UFO Secrets Revealed by Mike Schratt - YouTube

    Pretending to be KFC: It bring da lulz.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyechka View Post
    Pretending to be KFC: It bring da lulz.
    Hahaha...which part, the "UFO" moniker, or that we have aviation tech WAY beyond what we've come accustomed to...two wings, a vertical stabilizer, and a horizontal stabilizer?


    Well, photo 20/20 this page: Tacit Blue II

    Then, there was this quick Google search on UCAVs. Are most of you just having a mental visual of those Predator drones? That thing's ancient! The one in Top Mounters video is also just a scaled up toy. Think STOL or VTOL w/ vectored thrust nozzles as what's being developed/deployed now.

    This thing may be a movie prop:


    But this thing's very real:


    Last edited by Pau11y; 10-30-2011 at 04:16 PM.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter View Post
    An example of one of these companies is here: Vanguard Defense Industries - Law Enforcement
    What about Cotter Corp.? Yeah that one. The one with the uranium mine next to White Ranch.

    "As the Colorado Independent points out, Cotter Corp. is a subsidiary of General Atomics. General Atomics manufactures Predator drones: unmanned aerial vehicles designed to survey and take action in dangerous areas.

    Cotter recently received approval from the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment to dump 90,000 gallons of radioactive waste into the pond there. Though the pond has a known leak, officials contend that groundwater contamination near Canon City will not worsen due to underground clay barriers that confine the waste."

    Cotter Corp, Subsidiary Of Predator Drone Manufacturer, Struggling To Access Radioactive Pond

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Hahaha...which part, the "UFO" moniker, or that we have aviation tech WAY beyond what we've come accustomed to...two wings, a vertical stabilizer, and a horizontal stabilizer?

    The UFO moniker seems like something UT would use all too freely.

    The plane in the top left looks like a giant cockroach. And how much did I have to pay for it?? Now UT is going to start a thread about giant cockroaches taking over southern CO.

  32. #32
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    I'm probably in the minority, but I have no problems with drones, nor their use. They make the bad guys quiver in their caves and it puts no American service members at risk. I hope they use more.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    Don't kid yourself, they've been flying drones and blimps overhead and for many years.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2tHk9Q3Fv6g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    Big deal! When these guys take over, let me know.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Drones in SE Colorado-cyberdyne_systems_by_cmdrkerner.jpg  


  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyechka View Post
    The plane in the top left looks like a giant cockroach. And how much did I have to pay for it??
    "UFO" is just a moniker the ppl who believe in LGMs took up (oh, I believe in LGMs). But what those letters mean could literally be anything from giant bugs (Mothra!) to the Death Star. I know this thread may seem like a joke, but the tech is real and WAY beyond what most have any idea it's at.

    That giant cockroach is a MOVIE PROP => NOT REAL! It's from that movie (Stealth?) w/ Jessica Beal

    Edit: remember those hypersonic drones DARPA lost on a high-speed test run...yeah, they're going into space (or at least low earth orbit) w/ it.
    Last edited by Pau11y; 10-30-2011 at 05:14 PM.
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  35. #35
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    Your talking Las Vegas?

    If so yes they can have it back

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyechka View Post
    I'm willing to give the military some land.... north of Death Valley.



    They already screwed it up with nukes, so they can have it.

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOEMTBR COLORADO View Post
    If so yes they can have it back
    Check out this book. I'm not saying I believe everything she reported, but it should give you a clue on what they did in NV
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    I'm probably in the minority, but I have no problems with drones, nor their use. They make the bad guys quiver in their caves and it puts no American service members at risk. I hope they use more.
    If you want to talk about a war time scenario in a supporting mission with US troops I really have no issues. The problem for me is that when they are used as snipers in the air, they don't just kill bad guys. They kill innocent men, women and children too. The use of drones in Pakistan will backfire. Actually it already has. They are calling it the "drone war" over there. Did you know we were at war with Pakistan? neither did I. But apparently we are.

    Drones in Pakistan: Out of the blue | The Economist

    "ONE day in March an American drone circled above Pakistan’s North Waziristan tribal area, zeroed in on a gathering of village men, some of whom were armed, and unleashed three missiles in quick succession. It turned out to be a meeting to settle a dispute over a chromite mine. Most of the 40 or so killed were civilians, according to accounts, though a dozen Taliban also died in the attack, including a local commander, Sherabat Khan. The Taliban nowadays often adjudicate quarrels in the tribal areas, a wild buffer zone that runs along Pakistan’s border with Afghanistan.

    The attack illustrated two problems with the drone war in the tribal regions: the risk of civilian casualties, and Pakistan’s ambiguous attitude towards America’s use of drones. Pakistan’s army chief, Ashfaq Kayani, called the strike a “complete violation of human rights”. For Pakistan, the difficulty went beyond civilian casualties. Khan was a lieutenant of a notable warlord, Gul Bahadur. But Pakistan considers Mr Bahadur to be a “good Taliban”, ie, one who has agreed to fight only in Afghanistan, not on Pakistani soil. After the strike, he threatened to tear up the deal."

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    I know this thread may seem like a joke, but the tech is real and WAY beyond what most have any idea it's at.
    No doubt about that. It's just that everything is classified, so there is no way to tell just HOW tech the stuff is. That's when the ppl like UT come in and start guessing, blowing everything out of proportion with conspiracy theories and whatnot. There's a spectrum of ppl that range from head-stuck-in-sand to delusional paranoids. I'll take the middle.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    If you want to talk about a war time scenario in a supporting mission with US troops I really have no issues. The problem for me is that when they are used as snipers in the air, they don't just kill bad guys. They kill innocent men, women and children too. The use of drones in Pakistan will backfire. Actually it already has. They are calling it the "drone war" over there. Did you know we were at war with Pakistan? neither did I. But apparently we are.

    Drones in Pakistan: Out of the blue | The Economist

    "ONE day in March an American drone circled above Pakistan’s North Waziristan tribal area, zeroed in on a gathering of village men, some of whom were armed, and unleashed three missiles in quick succession. It turned out to be a meeting to settle a dispute over a chromite mine. Most of the 40 or so killed were civilians, according to accounts, though a dozen Taliban also died in the attack, including a local commander, Sherabat Khan. The Taliban nowadays often adjudicate quarrels in the tribal areas, a wild buffer zone that runs along Pakistan’s border with Afghanistan.

    The attack illustrated two problems with the drone war in the tribal regions: the risk of civilian casualties, and Pakistan’s ambiguous attitude towards America’s use of drones. Pakistan’s army chief, Ashfaq Kayani, called the strike a “complete violation of human rights”. For Pakistan, the difficulty went beyond civilian casualties. Khan was a lieutenant of a notable warlord, Gul Bahadur. But Pakistan considers Mr Bahadur to be a “good Taliban”, ie, one who has agreed to fight only in Afghanistan, not on Pakistani soil. After the strike, he threatened to tear up the deal."
    Why is this a drone problem? A manned jet would have seen the same thing and unleashed the same weaponry.

    Good Taliban? That's like saying there is such a thing as a good Jihadist.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyechka View Post
    There's a spectrum of ppl that range from head-stuck-in-sand to delusional paranoids. I'll take the middle.
    Considering just HOW much crap is classified, I'll err on the side of slightly paranoid. Remember the comment Gene Hackman's character (sp?) made (in a movie - Eagle Eye?) that the NSA has an underground facility the size of a football field full of computers to monitor us, in the 80s...and where the evolution of facility like that might be today? Yeah, it's a movie, but have you seen the size of Google's data center in OR...and it's only "one of..." theirs!

    Here ya go (scroll down a bit): https://sites.google.com/a/ideasplan...oogle-calendar That bldg w/ the fans on the roof, that's its own power generation plant.

    More Data Centers
    The Tokyo one is BEYOND impressive...then there's Google's robotic data retrieval system...resembles some you see in movies huh?
    Last edited by Pau11y; 10-30-2011 at 05:52 PM.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Considering just HOW much crap is classified, I'll err on the side of slightly paranoid. Remember the comment Gene Hackman's character (sp?) made (in a movie - Eagle Eye?) that the NSA has an underground facility the size of a football field full of computers to monitor us, in the 80s...and where the evolution of facility like that might be today? Yeah, it's a movie, but have you seen the size of Google's data center in OR...and it's only "one of..." theirs!

    Here ya go (scroll down a bit): https://sites.google.com/a/ideasplan...oogle-calendar
    I have 14 "always on" computers in my house.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    I have 14 "always on" computers in my house.
    What do you do? Are your machines putting in some serious modeling processes?
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    Schnauzers is in charge of patrolling the trails. He uses those computers to monitor biker activities. What you don't realize is that he has buried several thousand scanners beside the trails that monitor things like speed, weight and tire type versus trail conditions. Thus, he can tell if someone is riding when it's muddy, or if they are off trail, etc. It's like the bat cave, only it's the Schnauzer Den.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyechka View Post
    Schnauzers is in charge of patrolling the trails. He uses those computers to monitor biker activities. What you don't realize is that he has buried several thousand scanners beside the trails that monitor things like speed, weight and tire type versus trail conditions. Thus, he can tell if someone is riding when it's muddy, or if they are off trail, etc. It's like the bat cave, only it's the Schnauzer Den.
    Meh, much easily done w/ drones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    Why is this a drone problem? A manned jet would have seen the same thing and unleashed the same weaponry.

    Good Taliban? That's like saying there is such a thing as a good Jihadist.
    No. That would be considered a US soldier in Pakistan, or boots on the ground, requiring authorization by Congress and a formal declaration of war. The use of drones in Pakistan subverts that process and the US Constitution. The more we allow these types of activities to take place, the less our Constitution means to the criminals in power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    The more we allow these types of activities to take place, the less our Constitution means to the criminals in power.
    That thing you called "our Constitution" was never intended for everyone. Remember when and who penned the thing.

    Oh here we go...let the hate 5h!t-storm fly!
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Considering just HOW much crap is classified, I'll err on the side of slightly paranoid.
    You're wise to do so. Remember back in the Clinton Administration when there were these big debates over the ethics of whether or not we should attempt splicing human-animal genes? Well, not 15 feet away from me sat an incubator with human/mouse hybrid cells inside. We were already doing it before the media even began discussing whether or not we should. Happy Halloween.

    As far as UAV's in a domestic setting. My issue is that they will start to be used for traffic/code enforcement, and other revenue generating operations, in addition to violating my 4th Amendment rights. That's how things are rolled out. Kind of like the microphones in street lights. At first it's "to get the bad guys", then before you know it, we're snooping on private conversations of everyone walking down the street and then running the words through key word filters.

    With the introduction of UAV's, it's not too difficult to understand many cities quick discontinuance of red light cameras. They probably got a DHS grant to purchase UAV's...
    traffic enforcement will be the next step. Maybe that's the reason why CDOT still has the aerial speed enforcement signs up?

    EDIT: Think about how many speeding tickets could be written in one day by a single drone with an automated camera system. Hundreds if not thousands of tickets a day. You don't think that type of revenue stream is tempting?
    Last edited by UncleTrail; 10-30-2011 at 06:50 PM.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyechka View Post
    . It's like the bat cave, only it's the Schnauzer Den.
    More like a dog house.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    What do you do? Are your machines putting in some serious modeling processes?
    I'm an IT Director, but I do some "stuff" for people on the side.

    My kids and Wife have their own computers and I am lumping in the game systems and Apple TV devices as well. Add in the tablets, server in the basement, and three computers in my office and you get to 14.

    Don't worry, I only have the wireless cameras focused on my neighbor.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Drones in SE Colorado-dcs-932l2011072711150201.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    Flying murder machines?

    Did you get that article from the nutjobs protesting across from the Costco in Arvada today? Even Liburatards aren't against using drones. Must be some kind of Ron Paul cult.

    Edit: I saw them after I exercised my 2nd amendment right at the Silver Bullet Shooting Range in Wheat Ridge.
    Dear Schnauzertard,
    The more I read your posts, the less I like you.
    Of course putting the "tard" suffix on any broad group of people (whoever the liburatards may be) just makes you look stupid. Putting it on one individual can make sense however, if you have sufficient knowledge of that person. With that in mind, I now proclaim your new name to be Schnauzertard.

    (Please don't try to invite me for a "beer" again).

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    You're wise to do so. Remember back in the Clinton Administration when there were these big debates over the ethics of whether or not we should attempt splicing human-animal genes? Well, not 15 feet away from me sat an incubator with human/mouse hybrid cells inside. We were already doing it before the media even began discussing whether or not we should. Happy Halloween.

    As far as UAV's in a domestic setting. My issue is that they will start to be used for traffic/code enforcement, and other revenue generating operations, in addition to violating my 4th Amendment rights. That's how things are rolled out. Kind of like the microphones in street lights. At first it's "to get the bad guys", then before you know it, we're snooping on private conversations of everyone walking down the street and then running the words through key word filters.

    With the introduction of UAV's, it's not too difficult to understand many cities quick discontinuance of red light cameras. They probably got a DHS grant to purchase UAV's...
    traffic enforcement will be the next step. Maybe that's the reason why CDOT still has the aerial speed enforcement signs up?

    EDIT: Think about how many speeding tickets could be written in one day by a single drone with an automated camera system. Hundreds if not thousands of tickets a day. You don't think that type of revenue stream is tempting?

    I think you really have jumped the shark. You may need a titanium hat at this rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    I think you really have jumped the shark. You may need a titanium hat at this rate.
    Paranoid IS patriotic.

    The 2nd Amendment isn't there so you can shoot your pop gun at the range or go deer hunting... think about it. It's there because our founders were PARANOID.

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    fixed wing is so passé

    rotors are where it's at...

    Public safety surveillance drone debuts
    Thursday, October 27, 2011

    Public safety surveillance drone debuts
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

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    I can see drones' usefulness in a military capacity but, as a habitual speeder I don't want to see a swarm of drones ticketing all of us ordinary citizens as we go about our mundane otherwise lawful days. Its like another electronic babysitter. I cannot see a municipality resisting such a revenue stream and I can see the use of drones to monitor citizens spiraling out of control because domestic law enforcement agencies don't know when to quit. I can see why the military needs to be able to train with drones but unfortunately domestic law enforcement must be salivating at the prospect of utilizing them as well. I'd be cool with drones if they were only used to kill bad guys over seas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    I'm probably in the minority, but I have no problems with drones, nor their use. They make the bad guys quiver in their caves and it puts no American service members at risk. I hope they use more.
    Rah Rah and all, but something tells me that our indiscriminate use of "drone diplomacy" is going to result in some serious "drone blowback" in the coming years. We are diving headlong into the age of the "Video Game War" (aka Drone-Kill Nation) and we seem to have a "if a little is good, then more is better" (giddy even) mentality about it. We are definitely in uncharted territory, especially when it comes to international law. Just the mental health issues that have been reported by drone pilots are enough to give one pause. When you're killing anywhere from 10 to 50 civilians for each intended target and then going home to have dinner with your wife and kids, how could you not break down?

    Drone-Kill Culture: Predator Playstations

    "I have two words for you, predator drones. LOL"

    "We came, we saw, he died. LOL"

  56. #56
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    I'd be cool with Drones if we could legally shot them down - Pull!

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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    I think you really have jumped the shark. You may need a titanium hat at this rate.
    Don't be so naive, it's already happening.

    The Department of Homeland Security is issuing 100% grants for Local Law Enforcement Agencies to purchase drones equipped with non-lethal weapons and surveillance equipment under the Homeland Security Grant Program(HSGP).

    Local Law Enforcement Agencies are now connected to the Homeland Security Information Network (HSIN) and ALL "collected data" is uploaded, stored and shared with local, state and federal agencies across the nation as needed (actually the HSIN site says "federal, state, local, tribal, territorial, private sector, and international partners"). Our local "Fusion Center" is located in Centennial and is called the Colorado Information Analysis Center(CIAC).

    Obviously the Department of Homeland Security is not giving away $500k drones to help give speeding tickets, but once the price comes down, that would be a pretty obvious application. Many states have used small planes to identify speeders for decades and that plane and pilot isn't cheap... of course that plane and pilot isn't equipped with high-resolution optics, FLIR and thermal imagining, nor can it fly silently and invisibly a mere 600 feet above your neighborhood either.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter View Post
    Don't be so naive, it's already happening.

    The Department of Homeland Security is issuing 100% grants for Local Law Enforcement Agencies to purchase drones equipped with non-lethal weapons and surveillance equipment under the Homeland Security Grant Program(HSGP).

    Local Law Enforcement Agencies are now connected to the Homeland Security Information Network (HSIN) and ALL "collected data" is uploaded, stored and shared with local, state and federal agencies across the nation as needed (actually the HSIN site says "federal, state, local, tribal, territorial, private sector, and international partners"). Our local "Fusion Center" is located in Centennial and is called the Colorado Information Analysis Center(CIAC).

    Obviously the Department of Homeland Security is not giving away $500k drones to help give speeding tickets, but once the price comes down, that would be a pretty obvious application. Many states have used small planes to identify speeders for decades and that plane and pilot isn't cheap... of course that plane and pilot isn't equipped with high-resolution optics, FLIR and thermal imagining, nor can it fly silently and invisibly a mere 600 feet above your neighborhood either.
    If you are not breaking the law than it isn't a problem. Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    If you are not breaking the law than it isn't a problem. Right?
    It's against the law for you or I to peep in peoples windows, why do feel it's ok for the cops to do so using a drone?

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    I can see the "authorities" nit picking us even more then they already do with these automated methods. Nobody's perfect but it'll be about revenue so we'll have to be perfect little good citizens or we'll automatically be photographed, tried, and convicted, repeatedly before we even know about the infraction. It'll start with traffic enforcement and then balloon from there. I know its politically incorrect to admit it, but I don't trust the police to be reasonable, especially with budgets tightening up.

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    this thread is so full of awesome

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    One mans opinion

    First off the fear mongering in this thread is out of control, if you think the Gov't want's to spend money on stupid things like traffic patrol, your putting to much confidence in the bureaucratic process. The one thing we have in this country is freedom, not in my life will they ever take that away, we can always vote them out and change the laws back. Salazar is a joke, the man is worse than Newt Gingrich but because he has a D the drones in human form think what he is doing is OK.
    The comment that the US should not use drones in other countries is idiotic, there is still a human behind the machine an I believe it makes no difference if the person is 35k in the air or 3500 miles away, they are both looking into a monitor for video verification. If your talking Afghanistan we tried the boots on the ground and the men got there arses shot off because we put them in a no win situation given the terrain and the tribal environment. Simply put we are hated in that part of the world, our belief in freedom, equal rights and religious choice make us an enemy, we won't change that. I also believe if we sit here and do nothing the fight will return to our soil, get some balls and understand the US and most of Europe are the enemy, freedom is not free nor is it easy.

    As for the Pinion Canyon site all I will say is the NIMBY attitude has gone to far, Colorado is poised to take billions of dollars in the coming years as most training facilities are being downsized or closed for a number of reason around the nation. If we don't give our military a place to train I can see Mexico stepping up and charging us to use land south of the border, is that really in our best interest. This site is ideal for training, not much else can be done with the land but because it has been passed through generations they feel it there inherit rite to keep the land, to me the whole situation should be resolve as fast as possible, we are way to empathetic in a moronic way.
    Kinda like the occupy wall street people, "Anti capitalist is all they are" Federal regulation has cause the problem and this is just a distraction from the truth

    I have more but will wait to see the Saul Alinsky tactics come to fruition.

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  63. #63
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    Dang. My bad. I thought I was in a mountain bike forum.

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    Wow what a thread of retardness. Go ride your bikes

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    Things get VERY murky now that we're flying these things anywhere we want, anytime we want, with little or no cooperation (or knowledge even) by the country in question.

    If I was an innocent civilan living in a country with armed drones flying overhead that were killing 10x to 50x more civilians than their intended targets... who am I going to consider the "enemy"? Of course fear of getting moved to the naughty-list would keep me from complaining publicly.

    At least when politicians and generals decide to put boots on the ground and butts in the seat, there is a direct correlation between and understanding of the risks and the rewards, not to mention the consequences (intended or otherwise) and accountability of any given mission.

    But I digress, we need to turn these swords into plowshares... or rather... drones that can carry extra water bottles, food, tools and contact emergency services when things go bad

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken View Post
    this thread is so full of awesome
    Agreed. I'm loving the debate between conspiracy theories & who cares about collateral damage, just git er done!

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post

    Don't worry, I only have the wireless cameras focused on my neighbor.
    You spy on your neighbor? Seriously?

    And you call UT paranoid?!
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF View Post
    You spy on your neighbor? Seriously?

    And you call UT paranoid?!
    Depends how hot the neighbor is...

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF View Post
    You spy on your neighbor? Seriously?

    And you call UT paranoid?!
    No, not spy. You'd have to read through my past threads about the issues with the neighbor. He has been caught taunting my dogs (tries to get them to bark for more than 10 minutes), which is a fine-able offense. It was recommended that I put in cameras focused on the dog run to document the next time it happens. They are security cameras, not peeping Tom cameras.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottap2003 View Post
    Depends how hot the neighbor is...
    68 years old and rides her bike in the basement. Need I say more?

  71. #71
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    Don't know which is more disturbing, this thread and people that believe in the silly poor me the spies are going to get us tin foil hat crap or
    http://pixyland.org/peterpan/
    click you know you want to!!

    I tapped that

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    68 years old and rides her bike in the basement. Need I say more?
    She can still whup your ass with her pinky?



    ok, ok, ok... this thread wouldn't be right without a picture of a girl
    on a grandma bike. ‘omafiets’

    so there you go. Thoroughly derailed from the original topic.

    Why does Ken Salazar keep proposing wilderness areas, but also supports sharing of public airspace with military hardware built by a company that does this:

    "Uranium contamination from Schwartzwalder reaches Ralston Creek northwest of Golden, which flows into a reservoir that supplies drinking water for 1.3 million metro residents."

    "Tests along Ralston Creek have found elevated uranium levels as high as 310 parts per billion, well above the 30 ppb state health standard for drinking water."

    Colorado demands Cotter Corp. clean up mine that's leaking uranium - The Denver Post

    Don't drink the water! It's not just for Mexico any longer.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    If you are not breaking the law than it isn't a problem. Right?
    Well, no, it is a problem. As Ben Franklin said, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." So regardless of whether or not you're breaking the law, we, as citizens, have to hold the government to the rule of law. Being apathetic because you're "not doing anything wrong" is a slippery slope.

    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken View Post
    this thread is so full of awesome
    No, this thread is so full of fail that that word doesn't even come close to doing it justice!

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman View Post
    Hey people. Just FYI

    Do your homework.

    Sadly, you might even find out your uncle is a wacko.
    And that's being nice. Now where's that ignore button?

  74. #74
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    A cattle mutilation bump

    Yeah?
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken View Post
    this thread is so full of awesome
    No, THIS is the awesomeness: Chicken Power
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  76. #76
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    Ralston Creek cuts through the South Platte limestone, a known source of uranium on both the Front Range and in its equivalent on the Western Slope. In fact, there is a known uranium roll front along the US 285 roadcut along Turkey Creek.

    That yellow "tounge" is hot, way hot.

    I love when people,especially scientists, insist that one part of the hydrologic cycle is not connected to all other parts of the cycle.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    Ralston Creek cuts through the South Platte limestone, a known source of uranium on both the Front Range and in its equivalent on the Western Slope. In fact, there is a known uranium roll front along the US 285 roadcut along Turkey Creek.

    That yellow "tounge" is hot, way hot.

    I love when people,especially scientists, insist that one part of the hydrologic cycle is not connected to all other parts of the cycle.
    Like this one: The Oklo Natural Nuclear Reactor
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    No, this thread is so full of fail that that word doesn't even come close to doing it justice!
    your sarcasm meter is broken

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    It's against the law for you or I to peep in peoples windows, why do feel it's ok for the cops to do so using a drone?
    If you can see into my window while flying, my windows may be too large.

    But don't the police have the power via search warrants already? But I'm guessing "drones" create more traffic on conspiracy websites.....because it sounds so......conspiracyish....you know, like a drone brought down the twin towers. Or was it a drone at the Pentagon? Is there anything a drone can't do?

    Besides, I thought this topic was about the military's use of drones? Now we're afraid of drones as traffic cops? Is that what they're doing in SE Colorado??

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    Besides, I thought this topic was about the military's use of drones? Now we're afraid of drones as traffic cops? Is that what they're doing in SE Colorado??

  81. #81
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    This libtard is against people killing each other, whether they are in the plane or flying it remote with a big mac on their desk in some container in vegas. Probably even more against remote killing since it's more abstract and easily written off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    Besides, I thought this topic was about the military's use of drones? Now we're afraid of drones as traffic cops? Is that what they're doing in SE Colorado??
    Kinda silly too considering highway patrol has used aircraft for patrolling for decades... guy must have never noticed the signs on highways "Patrolled by Aircraft"


    Personally, I love seeing the fighter jets, Apaches and other super rad flying toys around all the time. watching some of those big lifters come in low is pretty badass.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsnotfour View Post
    I can see drones' usefulness in a military capacity but, as a habitual speeder I don't want to see a swarm of drones ticketing all of us ordinary citizens as we go about our mundane otherwise lawful days. Its like another electronic babysitter. I cannot see a municipality resisting such a revenue stream and I can see the use of drones to monitor citizens spiraling out of control because domestic law enforcement agencies don't know when to quit. I can see why the military needs to be able to train with drones but unfortunately domestic law enforcement must be salivating at the prospect of utilizing them as well. I'd be cool with drones if they were only used to kill bad guys over seas.
    Given what these things cost I don't think you'll have to worry about drones being used to catch speeders anytime soon.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    Given what these things cost I don't think you'll have to worry about drones being used to catch speeders anytime soon.
    They're paid for with DHS grants. It doesn't cost the city anything, DHS just bills the taxpayers. It's already starting in the UK.

    Aerial surveillance push - Local News - News - General - The Canberra Times

    "Police have suggested that Canberra's new point-to-point speed cameras be linked to unmanned aerial surveillance drones and used to track vehicles of interest to authorities.

    The first of the cameras, which use automated number plate recognition technology to calculate a car's average speed and whether it is within the legal limit, are due to be switched on by the end of the year.

    But minutes of a Government point-to-point steering committee meeting held in June last year show that police recommended a broader range of uses for the cameras."


    Spaceborne Speedtraps: Satellites Help Plate-Reading Cameras Continuously Track Speeding Drivers | Popular Science
    "Evasive speed demons may have a harder time avoid"ing a GPS-enabled speed camera which can capture license plate numbers under any weather condition, 24 hours a day. The new speed cameras in the UK use GPS satellites to help measure cars' average driving speeds over long distances, The Telegraph reports.

    The newspaper obtained details on the speed camera trials in a House of Commons report. One system has been set up in Southwark, London, and the other between Antony and Torpoint in Cornwall.

    The camera system combines plate-reading technology with a GPS satellite receiver, and would help cover the network of streets such as those found in residential neighborhoods, according to the UK's Automobile Association.

    The SpeedSpike system was developed by PIPS Technology Ltd, a U.S. company. Unlike radar enforcement checkpoints where wary drivers slow down, a number of SpeedSpike cameras would cover far greater zones."

    There it is right there ^^.

    EDIT:
    How do you think CDOT puts those ETA's on the digital highway signs?
    It's not drones, no. It's tracking technology in those Faspasses, cell towers and GPS chips in cell phones. GPS mandated in the The Warning, Alert and Response Network (WARN) Act, and the The Wireless Communications and Public Safety Act of 1999.

    Everyone said "oh they'll never do that. What are you wearing a tin foil hat?"
    No. Look in a mirror, I'm not the one with the tin foil hat.
    Last edited by UncleTrail; 11-02-2011 at 08:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrJosiah View Post
    Personally, I love seeing the fighter jets, Apaches and other super rad flying toys around all the time. watching some of those big lifters come in low is pretty badass.
    LAPES is the coolest big lifter steez.


  86. #86
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    If you're referring to my post about drones and traffic enforcement. I am well aware of the use of aircraft in traffic enforcement. I'm not in favor of that either. In my opinion the police should focus less on doling out speeding tickets to people who are, essentially good citizens, and focus instead on enforcing more significant laws and catching real criminals. Unfortunately, traffic enforcement is low hanging fruit leading to easy revenue, hence, the focus on monitoring traffic.

    I would actually be in favor of the use of drones for surveillance of, say, drug dealers domestically. I just don't trust the police not to get over zealous in monitoring people who are essentially law abiding citizens driving their cars imperfectly. I also don't like the use of cameras for traffic enforcement. I am in favor of the use of drones to monitor and kill terrorists abroad. It will be interesting if drones were used that way domestically. I am willing to give the military and CIA wider berth then domestic police due to the nature of their work.

    I am currently reading "The Triple Agent" by Joby Warrick.

    http://www.amazon.com/Triple-Agent-a.../dp/0385534183

    The book is not specifically about the use of drones, however, it includes a lot of information regarding their use in the Middle East to monitor and kill terrorists. It also talks about the people behind target selection called targeters. Its a fascinating book and I have come to respect those involved in the fight against terror including the targeters.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrJosiah View Post
    Kinda silly too considering highway patrol has used aircraft for patrolling for decades... guy must have never noticed the signs on highways "Patrolled by Aircraft"
    The best is when the signs say, "Enforced by Aircraft". Keep your eyes open for planes pulling people over...
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    The best is when the signs say, "Enforced by Aircraft". Keep your eyes open for planes pulling people over...
    Ha ha I have seen those too!

    Automated ticketing is on it's way out, many states have already outlawed red light cameras, heck they only lasted a year here in the Springs and are being yanked in '12.

    The (at least American) public just won't stand for the automated policing, not to mention all the legal loopholes.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    The best is when the signs say, "Enforced by Aircraft". Keep your eyes open for planes pulling people over...
    I mentioned the signs earlier in the thread. CDOT no longer enforces speed with aircraft, but they have never taken the signs down.

    Laugh all you want, I predict by 2014 drones will be used for traffic enforcement somewhere in the US, and the precedent will be set for other communities to follow. At the present time Houston and Miami are the bell weather cities to watch. NYC, DC and LA are also cities I would expect to see a roll out of this technology.

    I know of a former coworker who has had a relative photographed through a window in their house. That's here in CO. The drones/blimps are already up there. You just haven't been told about it. One company tests the blimps out on the east side of el paso county near Calhan. Google high altitude blimps colorado springs. There are several local manufacturers.

    So, when a frog is placed in a pot of water and it is brought to a slow boil, the frog doesn't realize he's being cooked until it's too late. Don't be a frog your whole life.

  90. #90
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    I agree with the frog analogy. We slowly, willingly, and even happily give away our liberty and privacy a bit each day in this country.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby View Post
    This libtard is against people killing each other, whether they are in the plane or flying it remote with a big mac on their desk in some container in vegas. Probably even more against remote killing since it's more abstract and easily written off.
    So when there is a crazed nut job standing in front of you with a finger on a switch that will kill 20 people all at once, you'll try and talk him out of it?

    Good luck with that.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    I mentioned the signs earlier in the thread. CDOT no longer enforces speed with aircraft, but they have never taken the signs down.

    Laugh all you want, I predict by 2014 drones will be used for traffic enforcement somewhere in the US, and the precedent will be set for other communities to follow. At the present time Houston and Miami are the bell weather cities to watch. NYC, DC and LA are also cities I would expect to see a roll out of this technology.
    Can't wait to see those sidewinders lock onto the exhaust of someone coming around fast on the Morrison curve. What will Morrison do with all those clean white cars of theirs?

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    What will Morrison do with all those clean white cars of theirs?
    You can be sure they won't be enforcing immigration laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    So when there is a crazed nut job standing in front of you with a finger on a switch that will kill 20 people all at once, you'll try and talk him out of it?
    Like this guy?

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XnqRT4UmUE8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    Like this guy?

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XnqRT4UmUE8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    Oh, the Zahner. My Colorado stalker. He got hit by a car last week. Now his lawyer is going to make him a rich schizophrenic homeless guy. Scary.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsnotfour View Post
    If you're referring to my post about drones and traffic enforcement. I am well aware of the use of aircraft in traffic enforcement. I'm not in favor of that either. In my opinion the police should focus less on doling out speeding tickets to people who are, essentially good citizens, and focus instead on enforcing more significant laws and catching real criminals. Unfortunately, traffic enforcement is low hanging fruit leading to easy revenue, hence, the focus on monitoring traffic.

    I would actually be in favor of the use of drones for surveillance of, say, drug dealers domestically. I just don't trust the police not to get over zealous in monitoring people who are essentially law abiding citizens driving their cars imperfectly. I also don't like the use of cameras for traffic enforcement. I am in favor of the use of drones to monitor and kill terrorists abroad. It will be interesting if drones were used that way domestically. I am willing to give the military and CIA wider berth then domestic police due to the nature of their work.

    I am currently reading "The Triple Agent" by Joby Warrick.

    http://www.amazon.com/Triple-Agent-a.../dp/0385534183

    The book is not specifically about the use of drones, however, it includes a lot of information regarding their use in the Middle East to monitor and kill terrorists. It also talks about the people behind target selection called targeters. Its a fascinating book and I have come to respect those involved in the fight against terror including the targeters.
    All you gotta do is not speed.

  97. #97
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    Let's talk about the real issue here...people posting giant photos on MTBR that take up the entire screen and make you have to side scroll to read anything. Fack.
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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    All you gotta do is not speed.
    Actually I have slowed down but the real issue is the focus of police on petty traffic infractions as apposed to more significant crimes. Of course, that is to be expected. Its easier from the police to focus on traffic infractions rather then more significant crimes and local governments enjoy the revenue. Its not about safety, its about revenue. It disconcerting that generally good law abiding citizens so willingly submit to constant monitoring without so much as raising an eye brow at the situation and its getting worse with cameras and such.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    So when there is a crazed nut job standing in front of you with a finger on a switch that will kill 20 people all at once, you'll try and talk him out of it?

    Good luck with that.
    Just for the lols, in your scenario above, please tell us what you'd do. Pretty please. I haven't had a good laugh in at least 5-minutes now.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken View Post
    LAPES is the coolest big lifter steez.

    Right up until the drogue chute goes out early, the Herc can't pull up, it inchworms across the DZ and into the trees turning troops into pizza along the way.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

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