Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38
  1. #1
    mtbmike
    Reputation: mtbmike1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    304

    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Doudy Draw Trouble

    I just got a call from Mike Patton, Director of the City of Boulder's Open Space and Mountain Parks Department.

    The Boulder County Horsemen's Association is flaming about user conflicts at Doudy Draw. As documented in a previous thread, we have a couple of idiots that are doing an efficient job of creating acrimony among user groups that should be working together, not against each other.

    OSMP isn't going to shut down Doudy any time soon, but user conflicts like these damage forward progress BMA has spent over a decade trying to create. We have two new loops to bring online in this area in the next six to eight months; and keeping a government agency moving forward while others are screaming makes our job even harder.

    BMA will be working with OSMP to install signage that we already should know about... the yeild hierarchy. But what is really needed is peer pressure. If we can't police ourselves, then the rangers will have to get into the act and nobody, NOBODY wants that.

    Given the user conflict reports I've received since the opening of this trail on October 20, BCHA is totally justified in their anger. They helped build this trail in the 80's, and even though they need to adjust to the presence of bikes, it's our behavior on the trail requires improvement.

    I believe it's time to put a bike patrol in the South Boulder trail system. This would much like the West Mag Bike Patrol, our presence would be a calming influence and friendly face on the trail.

    There are many who hate the thought of bikes west of Broadway/Highway 93 and this is EXACTLY the ammo they need to say, "See? We told you so!"

    The next Trail Study Area OSMP is going to tackle is the Mountain Parks... Mt Sanitas to South Boulder Creek, everything west of Broadway. Brain damage like this makes BMA's job representing mountain biking harder by an order of magnitude.

    If we can't show we can get along, we lose not only here, but in the incredible opportunities that are coming in the next 12 to 24 months.
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  2. #2
    Ride Everything
    Reputation: GRAVELBIKE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,274
    Mike,

    I rode Doudy for the first time this past Saturday, and I really enjoyed it. Because of that other thread, I made sure that I was even more 'polite' than usual (yielding, etc). Anyway, I'd be interested in learning about any opportunities for lending a helping hand in that area.
    GRAVELBIKE.COM - ride everything

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    603
    gee, this is a new and uncharted topic???

    MTN BIKER angst: DH vs. the WORLD!!!!!

    Shuttling Maxwell

    Is it okay to clothes-line downhillers on Apex?

    good luck achieving 'peer pressure' support on this.
    some people just lack the social skill, intelligence, and self preservation instinct to realize the ramifications of their actions.

  4. #4
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,115
    That sucks mike.

    I'm sure there are two facets.

    1. There are probably a horse group that has been using that trail system for a long time and they are overreacting to the perceived problem of the bike because they aren't used to seeing cyclists at all. Suddenly they are riding with bikes on the trail, and they don't like it or don't know how to deal. They have a hair trigger.

    2. The group of bikers who like to ride Marshall mesa, foothills and others where you rarely see a horse, thus, they don't realize you can spook a horse. They are ignorant despite the signs.

    The education aspect needs to not only include the knowledge of that one needs to yield to horses, but that it's critical in that horses mnight perceive cyclists as predators and they might respond as such. You can't just ride by a horse, even if the trail is a road. You have to clear it with the horse handler, talk so the horse is comfortable and possibly walk the bike or ride slowly by.

    I'm surprised this is not an issue with East Boulder/Teller farm trails. I live near there, do that ride all the time and almost always encounter a horse. I have spooked horses, even after the riders gave me permission to pass and they were 10 yards off trail.

    I think the main reason this is not an issue like Doudy is because there is the equilibrium of the users knowing what to expect.

    Doudy hasn't come to equilibrium yet.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    2,725
    C'mon folks, this isn't that hard. Be polite, treat others as you'd like to be treated, yield fer chrisssakes! All the things your Mother taught you as a youngster.
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  6. #6
    Your retarded
    Reputation: Nickle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,085
    I like reading Rich-posts. They're usually very enlightening and well thought out.
    A trail thatís too difficult wouldnít exist because itíd never be used. But, trails can exist thatíre too difficult for you.

  7. #7
    ridin dirtay
    Reputation: WKD-RDR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,602
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    gee, this is a new and uncharted topic???

    MTN BIKER angst: DH vs. the WORLD!!!!!

    Shuttling Maxwell

    Is it okay to clothes-line downhillers on Apex?

    good luck achieving 'peer pressure' support on this.
    some people just lack the social skill, intelligence, and self preservation instinct to realize the ramifications of their actions.
    This has nothing to do with your ridiculous ranting agenda. Stop whining allready, we get it - you're upset at all the other trail uisers BLAH BLAH BLAH!
    You're not going to get positive response with the crap threads you put out, so join the local bike patrol allready.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  8. #8
    mtbmike
    Reputation: mtbmike1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    304

    Walking on eggshells... our lot in life

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    That sucks mike.

    I'm sure there are two facets.

    1. There are probably a horse group that has been using that trail system for a long time and they are overreacting to the perceived problem of the bike because they aren't used to seeing cyclists at all. Suddenly they are riding with bikes on the trail, and they don't like it or don't know how to deal. They have a hair trigger.

    2. The group of bikers who like to ride Marshall mesa, foothills and others where you rarely see a horse, thus, they don't realize you can spook a horse. They are ignorant despite the signs.

    The education aspect needs to not only include the knowledge of that one needs to yield to horses, but that it's critical in that horses mnight perceive cyclists as predators and they might respond as such. You can't just ride by a horse, even if the trail is a road. You have to clear it with the horse handler, talk so the horse is comfortable and possibly walk the bike or ride slowly by.

    I'm surprised this is not an issue with East Boulder/Teller farm trails. I live near there, do that ride all the time and almost always encounter a horse. I have spooked horses, even after the riders gave me permission to pass and they were 10 yards off trail.

    I think the main reason this is not an issue like Doudy is because there is the equilibrium of the users knowing what to expect.

    Doudy hasn't come to equilibrium yet.
    Good points, Rich...

    We are the new kids on the block, the ugly redheaded stepsister.... whatever.

    Until we become an established part of the user population west of Broadway/Highway 93, every damn trail that becomes open to bikes will be under intense scrutiny. Today, we have an excellent relationship with OSMP (and City Council) that will not knee jerk a closure the first time something bad happens.

    But the bottom line is this, The less brain damage we create as a user group for OSMP staff and Council, the number and pace of new trail access openings will continue to grow.

    These trails are for everybody. They are NOT your private training course where you can put your iPod on and blast the trail at the pace you demand. That kind of thinking will shut down the pace of progress and possibly roll back gains 16 years of advocacy has just begun to render dividends.
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  9. #9
    Too busy looking good
    Reputation: HOser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    347
    Thanks Mike for posting this and bringing it to everyone's attention, before the situation gets critical.

    It occurs to me that maybe what some MTBers need are more specific recommendations about what to do when they encounter a horse, other than simply to yield. Here's what I do as a rule, let's use this as a starting point to establish some specific guidelines, please chime in if you agree/don't agree.

    There are two ways in which you're most likely to encounter a horse - (1) you and the horse are going in opposite directions, or (2) you and the horse are going the same direction but you're faster and need to pass.

    (1) Opposite directions - This one's easy, I always come to a complete stop well in advance and let the horse(s) pass me. I stop in a place where I can move off the trail and I make sure to smile and be polite. I also put myself between the horse and my bike, I figure this is less threatening to the horse.

    (2) This one's a bit harder because you don't want to surprise/annoy the horse/rider. You have to be assertive, don't just ride up behind the horse and hope the rider notices you. As far back as possible get the rider's attention (use your voice or a bell) and ask if you can pass. Mention that you're happy to dismount and pass on foot. Hopefully the rider will be responsive and move aside to let you pass.

    I've encountered many horses in Boulder county, usually on the north side of Sourdough, and have never had a negative experience with this approach.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,037

    I skipped the Draw Sunday

    I did a nice loop from S Boulder sunday, Marshall Mesa, 63rd, Coalton, High Plains, etc. Saw a lot of folks out there, I've never seen so many. We skipped the Draw after hearing that so many users were on it. Really, those trails are nice but does it mean everybody has to go out & use them at the same time, and on a sunday? I'd suggest skipping the Draw on prime horse riding time, which is sat/sundays in the middle of the day. And if you do go, haven't you run into horses in CB or elsewhere in CO? Give them the right of way, stop, and always tell the owner how beautiful the horse is. Pretty simple.

  11. #11
    Perpetually single track
    Reputation: ibmkidIII's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,165
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike1
    I believe it's time to put a bike patrol in the South Boulder trail system. This would much like the West Mag Bike Patrol, our presence would be a calming influence and friendly face on the trail.
    Say the word Mike. Soon as you official BMA folks get it cleared with OSMP, I could be out there tomorrow. I got the lovely little placard to put on the bike, the training (from west mag patrol), and am stumbling distance away.

    Thanks for being so on top of it.

    Kirk
    The more out of shape you are, the steeper the hill looks.

  12. #12
    Shattering Glass
    Reputation: dash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    707
    I really doubt the problematic riders are reading this, so it's like a fart in the wind only it's mtbr. Sounds like trailside education via bike patrol makes sense. It also makes note on the trails, that their is a serious MTB organization and presence in Boulder county and we wish to be a part of all the trails Boulder county has to offer. If we don't like their rules, there's always Curt Gowdy in Wyoming. They make Colorado seem quite non-progressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    C'mon folks, this isn't that hard. Be polite, treat others as you'd like to be treated, yield fer chrisssakes! All the things your Mother taught you as a youngster.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: chillmolly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    159

    Bike Patrol

    Both my husband and I would be glad to help out with a patrol around the Marshall Mesa area.

    Marcia

  14. #14
    trail waggler
    Reputation: daveM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,425

    Thanks for the work Mike...

    Keep it up!
    Last edited by daveM; 11-08-2007 at 04:55 PM.
    MY dog can lick YOUR dog!

  15. #15
    starladear
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    366
    Please don't make this thread go that way


    [QUOTE=daveM]Apexer's...they should just ban Fullfaces, and 2 ply tires...or maybe it was the 29'er singles, those guys just climb too fast

  16. #16
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,115
    Quote Originally Posted by dash
    If we don't like their rules, there's always Curt Gowdy in Wyoming. They make Colorado seem quite non-progressive.

    No kidding....

    But I have hardly seen peeps riding there...No riders = no conflict.

  17. #17
    Shattering Glass
    Reputation: dash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    707
    In a perfect world...

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    No kidding....

    But I have hardly seen peeps riding there...No riders = no conflict.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    603
    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    This has nothing to do with your ridiculous ranting agenda. Stop whining allready, we get it - you're upset at all the other trail uisers BLAH BLAH BLAH!
    You're not going to get positive response with the crap threads you put out, so join the local bike patrol allready.
    allready??

    BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. at least you got that to fall back on.

    join the bike patrrol to listen to a clown like yourself justify regulation violation because you think it is OK?

    if you actually 'got it', there would be no threads at all.
    mine or the two other that were posted.

    tell me doc, how long have you been riding in Northern Colorado?

  19. #19
    Your retarded
    Reputation: Nickle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,085
    Sometimes I wish MTBR were more like Survivor where you could vote users off.
    A trail thatís too difficult wouldnít exist because itíd never be used. But, trails can exist thatíre too difficult for you.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    603
    reading my mind.............

    this whole need for a group 'dogpile' is tired and lame at best.
    there are two weeks of MTBR user complaints, and then miraculously there is a user conflict complaint.
    what a coincidence!

    I saw the shuttling thread (the ass thread), and have no problem with it.
    you had fun, and did your thing without compromising any future use.

    I get that riders like yourself are not the ones that are causing the issues.
    however, there are many that apparently look up to you and would listen to you if a conversation took place trailside.
    would it be too much to ask, to have some support on rule/regulation education?
    I know, I know, that would not be the cool thing to do.
    the cool thing is to act apathetic and aloof, and 'represent' and the like.

    all I am asking for is help, as I have no association with riders like yourself.
    you seem relatively sane and aware, so how about helping out?

    or, forget it.
    let the current trend toward less development, and more restrictions take place.
    MTBers will never supplant hiker/horseback riders if trail conflicts escalate.

    so maybe if you stopped with the witty one liners and just helped out, I would quit posting.
    deal?

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    158
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    reading my mind.............

    this whole need for a group 'dogpile' is tired and lame at best.
    there are two weeks of MTBR user complaints, and then miraculously there is a user conflict complaint.
    what a coincidence!

    I saw the shuttling thread (the ass thread), and have no problem with it.
    you had fun, and did your thing without compromising any future use.

    I get that riders like yourself are not the ones that are causing the issues.
    however, there are many that apparently look up to you and would listen to you if a conversation took place trailside.
    would it be too much to ask, to have some support on rule/regulation education?
    I know, I know, that would not be the cool thing to do.
    the cool thing is to act apathetic and aloof, and 'represent' and the like.

    all I am asking for is help, as I have no association with riders like yourself.
    you seem relatively sane and aware, so how about helping out?

    or, forget it.
    let the current trend toward less development, and more restrictions take place.
    MTBers will never supplant hiker/horseback riders if trail conflicts escalate.

    so maybe if you stopped with the witty one liners and just helped out, I would quit posting.
    deal?

    I am pretty sure now, that you don't "get it".

    So other than complaining here on MTBR and trolling on this alert thread, how do you help? Do you attend land agency meetings? Do you report use numbers to land agencies? Do you attend trail days? Do you even contribute financially to local clubs, Bicycle Colorado, or IMBA?

    I have a theory about how you "help". Mike has a great signature..."The world is run by those that show up...."

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: YETI_Chris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    987
    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    Sometimes I wish MTBR were more like Survivor where you could vote users off.

    I 2nd that.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,080
    Probably the only way to make accountable the ***** who cause the trouble is for Boulder County to require everyone who wants to use the trail to register, kinda like a drivers license. A license plate would be required to be worn on the back of the seat of bikers and bibs for horses and hikers. The offender can then be reported for the poor behavior. I have always thought that mtb'ers were a special breed, proud of their sport, willing to share the trail w/others. All it takes is one bad apple and we're all screwed.

  24. #24
    Yappy little dog!
    Reputation: schnauzers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,875
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike1
    I believe it's time to put a bike patrol in the South Boulder trail system. This would much like the West Mag Bike Patrol, our presence would be a calming influence and friendly face on the trail.
    I'll volunteer for a few patrols since I already patrol in BC and have the $50 IMBA cert. MM is only 6 miles north of me.

  25. #25
    ridin dirtay
    Reputation: WKD-RDR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,602
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    if you actually 'got it', there would be no threads at all.
    mine or the two other that were posted.
    No brother, you dont get it. The threads are mostly sarcasm, with a little bit of "hey everyone be responsible", mixed in with some arse involved in personal battles and gripin about stuff that none of the users actually engage in. Which in turn feeds more sarcasm that you can't grasp.
    The peeps on this sight generally are not the problem, most are quality riders who have riden enough to know when to yield. The problem is out there. New riders who shoot their wad on the first sight of on fun DH, or who have never seen a horse.

    So you can continue your mental masterbation on this site
    OR
    you can actually be part of a solution on the trail.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    join the bike patrrol to listen to a clown like yourself justify regulation violation because you think it is OK?
    But it sounds like you wont take action beyond griping on the internet. I am not a bike patroller myself, but I certainly will let other riders know if they are creating issues for the whole. This is something I have suggested to you several times. (i.e. develop some communication skills(z) with others on the trail.)
    The regulation violation I occasionaly commit has nada to do with this board or mtn biking. Riding singletrack is while my trail dog(s) tag along is not a felony, as you would say from previous threads.
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    tell me doc, how long have you been riding in Northern Colorado?
    Not that it matters Salts, but since you asked...I've been riding in Colorado since I was on a bigwheel.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •