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  1. #1
    mtbmike
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Doudy Draw Trouble

    I just got a call from Mike Patton, Director of the City of Boulder's Open Space and Mountain Parks Department.

    The Boulder County Horsemen's Association is flaming about user conflicts at Doudy Draw. As documented in a previous thread, we have a couple of idiots that are doing an efficient job of creating acrimony among user groups that should be working together, not against each other.

    OSMP isn't going to shut down Doudy any time soon, but user conflicts like these damage forward progress BMA has spent over a decade trying to create. We have two new loops to bring online in this area in the next six to eight months; and keeping a government agency moving forward while others are screaming makes our job even harder.

    BMA will be working with OSMP to install signage that we already should know about... the yeild hierarchy. But what is really needed is peer pressure. If we can't police ourselves, then the rangers will have to get into the act and nobody, NOBODY wants that.

    Given the user conflict reports I've received since the opening of this trail on October 20, BCHA is totally justified in their anger. They helped build this trail in the 80's, and even though they need to adjust to the presence of bikes, it's our behavior on the trail requires improvement.

    I believe it's time to put a bike patrol in the South Boulder trail system. This would much like the West Mag Bike Patrol, our presence would be a calming influence and friendly face on the trail.

    There are many who hate the thought of bikes west of Broadway/Highway 93 and this is EXACTLY the ammo they need to say, "See? We told you so!"

    The next Trail Study Area OSMP is going to tackle is the Mountain Parks... Mt Sanitas to South Boulder Creek, everything west of Broadway. Brain damage like this makes BMA's job representing mountain biking harder by an order of magnitude.

    If we can't show we can get along, we lose not only here, but in the incredible opportunities that are coming in the next 12 to 24 months.
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  2. #2
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    Mike,

    I rode Doudy for the first time this past Saturday, and I really enjoyed it. Because of that other thread, I made sure that I was even more 'polite' than usual (yielding, etc). Anyway, I'd be interested in learning about any opportunities for lending a helping hand in that area.
    GRAVELBIKE.COM - ride everything

  3. #3
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    gee, this is a new and uncharted topic???

    MTN BIKER angst: DH vs. the WORLD!!!!!

    Shuttling Maxwell

    Is it okay to clothes-line downhillers on Apex?

    good luck achieving 'peer pressure' support on this.
    some people just lack the social skill, intelligence, and self preservation instinct to realize the ramifications of their actions.

  4. #4
    Rolling
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    That sucks mike.

    I'm sure there are two facets.

    1. There are probably a horse group that has been using that trail system for a long time and they are overreacting to the perceived problem of the bike because they aren't used to seeing cyclists at all. Suddenly they are riding with bikes on the trail, and they don't like it or don't know how to deal. They have a hair trigger.

    2. The group of bikers who like to ride Marshall mesa, foothills and others where you rarely see a horse, thus, they don't realize you can spook a horse. They are ignorant despite the signs.

    The education aspect needs to not only include the knowledge of that one needs to yield to horses, but that it's critical in that horses mnight perceive cyclists as predators and they might respond as such. You can't just ride by a horse, even if the trail is a road. You have to clear it with the horse handler, talk so the horse is comfortable and possibly walk the bike or ride slowly by.

    I'm surprised this is not an issue with East Boulder/Teller farm trails. I live near there, do that ride all the time and almost always encounter a horse. I have spooked horses, even after the riders gave me permission to pass and they were 10 yards off trail.

    I think the main reason this is not an issue like Doudy is because there is the equilibrium of the users knowing what to expect.

    Doudy hasn't come to equilibrium yet.

  5. #5
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    C'mon folks, this isn't that hard. Be polite, treat others as you'd like to be treated, yield fer chrisssakes! All the things your Mother taught you as a youngster.
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  6. #6
    Your retarded
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    I like reading Rich-posts. They're usually very enlightening and well thought out.
    A trail thatís too difficult wouldnít exist because itíd never be used. But, trails can exist thatíre too difficult for you.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    gee, this is a new and uncharted topic???

    MTN BIKER angst: DH vs. the WORLD!!!!!

    Shuttling Maxwell

    Is it okay to clothes-line downhillers on Apex?

    good luck achieving 'peer pressure' support on this.
    some people just lack the social skill, intelligence, and self preservation instinct to realize the ramifications of their actions.
    This has nothing to do with your ridiculous ranting agenda. Stop whining allready, we get it - you're upset at all the other trail uisers BLAH BLAH BLAH!
    You're not going to get positive response with the crap threads you put out, so join the local bike patrol allready.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  8. #8
    mtbmike
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    Walking on eggshells... our lot in life

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    That sucks mike.

    I'm sure there are two facets.

    1. There are probably a horse group that has been using that trail system for a long time and they are overreacting to the perceived problem of the bike because they aren't used to seeing cyclists at all. Suddenly they are riding with bikes on the trail, and they don't like it or don't know how to deal. They have a hair trigger.

    2. The group of bikers who like to ride Marshall mesa, foothills and others where you rarely see a horse, thus, they don't realize you can spook a horse. They are ignorant despite the signs.

    The education aspect needs to not only include the knowledge of that one needs to yield to horses, but that it's critical in that horses mnight perceive cyclists as predators and they might respond as such. You can't just ride by a horse, even if the trail is a road. You have to clear it with the horse handler, talk so the horse is comfortable and possibly walk the bike or ride slowly by.

    I'm surprised this is not an issue with East Boulder/Teller farm trails. I live near there, do that ride all the time and almost always encounter a horse. I have spooked horses, even after the riders gave me permission to pass and they were 10 yards off trail.

    I think the main reason this is not an issue like Doudy is because there is the equilibrium of the users knowing what to expect.

    Doudy hasn't come to equilibrium yet.
    Good points, Rich...

    We are the new kids on the block, the ugly redheaded stepsister.... whatever.

    Until we become an established part of the user population west of Broadway/Highway 93, every damn trail that becomes open to bikes will be under intense scrutiny. Today, we have an excellent relationship with OSMP (and City Council) that will not knee jerk a closure the first time something bad happens.

    But the bottom line is this, The less brain damage we create as a user group for OSMP staff and Council, the number and pace of new trail access openings will continue to grow.

    These trails are for everybody. They are NOT your private training course where you can put your iPod on and blast the trail at the pace you demand. That kind of thinking will shut down the pace of progress and possibly roll back gains 16 years of advocacy has just begun to render dividends.
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  9. #9
    Too busy looking good
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    Thanks Mike for posting this and bringing it to everyone's attention, before the situation gets critical.

    It occurs to me that maybe what some MTBers need are more specific recommendations about what to do when they encounter a horse, other than simply to yield. Here's what I do as a rule, let's use this as a starting point to establish some specific guidelines, please chime in if you agree/don't agree.

    There are two ways in which you're most likely to encounter a horse - (1) you and the horse are going in opposite directions, or (2) you and the horse are going the same direction but you're faster and need to pass.

    (1) Opposite directions - This one's easy, I always come to a complete stop well in advance and let the horse(s) pass me. I stop in a place where I can move off the trail and I make sure to smile and be polite. I also put myself between the horse and my bike, I figure this is less threatening to the horse.

    (2) This one's a bit harder because you don't want to surprise/annoy the horse/rider. You have to be assertive, don't just ride up behind the horse and hope the rider notices you. As far back as possible get the rider's attention (use your voice or a bell) and ask if you can pass. Mention that you're happy to dismount and pass on foot. Hopefully the rider will be responsive and move aside to let you pass.

    I've encountered many horses in Boulder county, usually on the north side of Sourdough, and have never had a negative experience with this approach.

  10. #10
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    I skipped the Draw Sunday

    I did a nice loop from S Boulder sunday, Marshall Mesa, 63rd, Coalton, High Plains, etc. Saw a lot of folks out there, I've never seen so many. We skipped the Draw after hearing that so many users were on it. Really, those trails are nice but does it mean everybody has to go out & use them at the same time, and on a sunday? I'd suggest skipping the Draw on prime horse riding time, which is sat/sundays in the middle of the day. And if you do go, haven't you run into horses in CB or elsewhere in CO? Give them the right of way, stop, and always tell the owner how beautiful the horse is. Pretty simple.

  11. #11
    Perpetually single track
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike1
    I believe it's time to put a bike patrol in the South Boulder trail system. This would much like the West Mag Bike Patrol, our presence would be a calming influence and friendly face on the trail.
    Say the word Mike. Soon as you official BMA folks get it cleared with OSMP, I could be out there tomorrow. I got the lovely little placard to put on the bike, the training (from west mag patrol), and am stumbling distance away.

    Thanks for being so on top of it.

    Kirk
    The more out of shape you are, the steeper the hill looks.

  12. #12
    Shattering Glass
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    I really doubt the problematic riders are reading this, so it's like a fart in the wind only it's mtbr. Sounds like trailside education via bike patrol makes sense. It also makes note on the trails, that their is a serious MTB organization and presence in Boulder county and we wish to be a part of all the trails Boulder county has to offer. If we don't like their rules, there's always Curt Gowdy in Wyoming. They make Colorado seem quite non-progressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    C'mon folks, this isn't that hard. Be polite, treat others as you'd like to be treated, yield fer chrisssakes! All the things your Mother taught you as a youngster.
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  13. #13
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    Bike Patrol

    Both my husband and I would be glad to help out with a patrol around the Marshall Mesa area.

    Marcia

  14. #14
    trail waggler
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    Thanks for the work Mike...

    Keep it up!
    Last edited by daveM; 11-08-2007 at 05:55 PM.
    MY dog can lick YOUR dog!

  15. #15
    starladear
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    Please don't make this thread go that way


    [QUOTE=daveM]Apexer's...they should just ban Fullfaces, and 2 ply tires...or maybe it was the 29'er singles, those guys just climb too fast

  16. #16
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by dash
    If we don't like their rules, there's always Curt Gowdy in Wyoming. They make Colorado seem quite non-progressive.

    No kidding....

    But I have hardly seen peeps riding there...No riders = no conflict.

  17. #17
    Shattering Glass
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    In a perfect world...

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    No kidding....

    But I have hardly seen peeps riding there...No riders = no conflict.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    This has nothing to do with your ridiculous ranting agenda. Stop whining allready, we get it - you're upset at all the other trail uisers BLAH BLAH BLAH!
    You're not going to get positive response with the crap threads you put out, so join the local bike patrol allready.
    allready??

    BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. at least you got that to fall back on.

    join the bike patrrol to listen to a clown like yourself justify regulation violation because you think it is OK?

    if you actually 'got it', there would be no threads at all.
    mine or the two other that were posted.

    tell me doc, how long have you been riding in Northern Colorado?

  19. #19
    Your retarded
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    Sometimes I wish MTBR were more like Survivor where you could vote users off.
    A trail thatís too difficult wouldnít exist because itíd never be used. But, trails can exist thatíre too difficult for you.

  20. #20
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    reading my mind.............

    this whole need for a group 'dogpile' is tired and lame at best.
    there are two weeks of MTBR user complaints, and then miraculously there is a user conflict complaint.
    what a coincidence!

    I saw the shuttling thread (the ass thread), and have no problem with it.
    you had fun, and did your thing without compromising any future use.

    I get that riders like yourself are not the ones that are causing the issues.
    however, there are many that apparently look up to you and would listen to you if a conversation took place trailside.
    would it be too much to ask, to have some support on rule/regulation education?
    I know, I know, that would not be the cool thing to do.
    the cool thing is to act apathetic and aloof, and 'represent' and the like.

    all I am asking for is help, as I have no association with riders like yourself.
    you seem relatively sane and aware, so how about helping out?

    or, forget it.
    let the current trend toward less development, and more restrictions take place.
    MTBers will never supplant hiker/horseback riders if trail conflicts escalate.

    so maybe if you stopped with the witty one liners and just helped out, I would quit posting.
    deal?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    reading my mind.............

    this whole need for a group 'dogpile' is tired and lame at best.
    there are two weeks of MTBR user complaints, and then miraculously there is a user conflict complaint.
    what a coincidence!

    I saw the shuttling thread (the ass thread), and have no problem with it.
    you had fun, and did your thing without compromising any future use.

    I get that riders like yourself are not the ones that are causing the issues.
    however, there are many that apparently look up to you and would listen to you if a conversation took place trailside.
    would it be too much to ask, to have some support on rule/regulation education?
    I know, I know, that would not be the cool thing to do.
    the cool thing is to act apathetic and aloof, and 'represent' and the like.

    all I am asking for is help, as I have no association with riders like yourself.
    you seem relatively sane and aware, so how about helping out?

    or, forget it.
    let the current trend toward less development, and more restrictions take place.
    MTBers will never supplant hiker/horseback riders if trail conflicts escalate.

    so maybe if you stopped with the witty one liners and just helped out, I would quit posting.
    deal?

    I am pretty sure now, that you don't "get it".

    So other than complaining here on MTBR and trolling on this alert thread, how do you help? Do you attend land agency meetings? Do you report use numbers to land agencies? Do you attend trail days? Do you even contribute financially to local clubs, Bicycle Colorado, or IMBA?

    I have a theory about how you "help". Mike has a great signature..."The world is run by those that show up...."

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    Sometimes I wish MTBR were more like Survivor where you could vote users off.

    I 2nd that.

  23. #23
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    Probably the only way to make accountable the ***** who cause the trouble is for Boulder County to require everyone who wants to use the trail to register, kinda like a drivers license. A license plate would be required to be worn on the back of the seat of bikers and bibs for horses and hikers. The offender can then be reported for the poor behavior. I have always thought that mtb'ers were a special breed, proud of their sport, willing to share the trail w/others. All it takes is one bad apple and we're all screwed.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike1
    I believe it's time to put a bike patrol in the South Boulder trail system. This would much like the West Mag Bike Patrol, our presence would be a calming influence and friendly face on the trail.
    I'll volunteer for a few patrols since I already patrol in BC and have the $50 IMBA cert. MM is only 6 miles north of me.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    if you actually 'got it', there would be no threads at all.
    mine or the two other that were posted.
    No brother, you dont get it. The threads are mostly sarcasm, with a little bit of "hey everyone be responsible", mixed in with some arse involved in personal battles and gripin about stuff that none of the users actually engage in. Which in turn feeds more sarcasm that you can't grasp.
    The peeps on this sight generally are not the problem, most are quality riders who have riden enough to know when to yield. The problem is out there. New riders who shoot their wad on the first sight of on fun DH, or who have never seen a horse.

    So you can continue your mental masterbation on this site
    OR
    you can actually be part of a solution on the trail.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    join the bike patrrol to listen to a clown like yourself justify regulation violation because you think it is OK?
    But it sounds like you wont take action beyond griping on the internet. I am not a bike patroller myself, but I certainly will let other riders know if they are creating issues for the whole. This is something I have suggested to you several times. (i.e. develop some communication skills(z) with others on the trail.)
    The regulation violation I occasionaly commit has nada to do with this board or mtn biking. Riding singletrack is while my trail dog(s) tag along is not a felony, as you would say from previous threads.
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    tell me doc, how long have you been riding in Northern Colorado?
    Not that it matters Salts, but since you asked...I've been riding in Colorado since I was on a bigwheel.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  26. #26
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    I try to stay out of these kind of threads because they almost always turn in to flaming but here are some non condescending, constructive thoughts:

    Mike - I think a bike patrol in the Southern universe is an excellent idea. Not only will this help the mountain bike community embed itself with Boulder parks, but it will also give visibility to non mtbers that we're doing something proactive. The patrol in Ned has been great, but it's mostly a by bikes for bikes type of thing. Down here, though, this will show other users that we are not selfish, that we are doing the right things for the right reasons, and that we are in it for the long haul.

    Beyond that, here's a quick thought and it might go along way beyond a bike patrol. This is a trail ethos that I try to live by. Be freindly, be nice, be courteous to everyone you encounter. Say hello to everyone you encounter. Smile. Ask stopped riders if the need help. Tell hikers to have a great hike. Compliment equestrians on their beautiful horse. Sounds like cheesy crap and it kind of is, but man, it goes a looooong way.

    Maybe we could put that on some trail signage
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    Maybe we could put that on some trail signage
    Or a headset top cap! The font would have to be awfully small though.
    GRAVELBIKE.COM - ride everything

  28. #28
    cheeseburger in paradise
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    Be freindly, be nice, be courteous to everyone you encounter. Say hello to everyone you encounter. Smile. Ask stopped riders if the need help. Tell hikers to have a great hike. Compliment equestrians on their beautiful horse. Sounds like cheesy crap and it kind of is, but man, it goes a looooong way.
    Cheesy but necessary.
    singlecrack

  29. #29
    Too busy looking good
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    Very well put, ignazjr, it really is just as simple at that.

    Or perhaps as difficult as that... basic common courtesy is lacking these days...

  30. #30
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    Bike Patrol Info

    Mike,

    Where can I find more info on the Bike Patrol?

  31. #31
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    For ned it's done for the year...and for Southern Boulder it doesn't exist YET. I imagine there will have to be extensive talks between BMA/OSMP (and BCOS??) before once can be established. Probably lot of forms to fill out, requirements to meet, etc.

  32. #32
    Who said Punisher?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibmkidIII
    For ned it's done for the year...and for Southern Boulder it doesn't exist YET. I imagine there will have to be extensive talks between BMA/OSMP (and BCOS??) before once can be established. Probably lot of forms to fill out, requirements to meet, etc.
    Actually we are already working on the talks with the Patrol and City/County of Boulder for the next year. stay tuned for more info and how to get involved. The patrol is doing the talking, not BMA as was also done with the Forest Service, but we have the full support of BMA for sure! Hope we see a whole lot more folks involved this next year--with expansion in the future, we will need all we can get! Ned patrol runs from Memorial day to Labor day every year on sat/sun.

  33. #33
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    What's up with this?



    (Friday, around noon.)
    GRAVELBIKE.COM - ride everything

  34. #34
    tiny rider
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    It was open yesterday a bit before noon. Don't know when that went in :/

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MileHighMark
    What's up with this?(Friday, around noon.)
    whatever it was it was obviously temporary, as i just got back from there (hit the trail at 2:ish) and bridge was open...

  36. #36
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    Damn. I guess I'll have to try again tomorrow.
    GRAVELBIKE.COM - ride everything

  37. #37
    EJP
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    Quote Originally Posted by MileHighMark
    What's up with this?


    file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html
    (Friday, around noon.)
    When we rode last night, one of the boards was damaged, resulting in significant hole. Only part of the bridge was blocked off, though. It appears that OSMP repaired the bridge today. Perhaps something needed to dry....
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    I like 'em either blond and fruity or dark and chocolaty

  38. #38
    Ride Everything
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    OK, that makes sense.
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