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  1. #1
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    Cone's alternating use = no mtn bikes on odd weekend days, hikers always welcome

    I rode the Cone last Saturday. As even weekend day, it was supposed to be a mountain bike only day. Certainly, there were way more bikes than hikers (where isn't that the case?) but I did see a number of hikers including one group that a JeffCo Ranger and I passed at the same time (going opposite directions). The ranger didn't say anything to the hikers. I very much doubt a biker would get the same treatment if he or she were riding the cone on the wrong day.

    Now, I realize that this is a petty gripe but shouldn't they just say that mountain bikes can't use Centinenial Cone on odd weekend days rather than going through the pretense of an alternate use schedule? (or better yet- just scrap the schedule)

    As long as the schedule policy is in place, I'll continue to honor it but I wish JeffCo would just acknowledge it's an anti-cyclist policy rather than a "fair shared use" policy.

  2. #2
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    nothing petty about it...

    i suggest you cut & paste:

    trock@jeffco.us

    i'm sure they'd appreciate the feedback.
    -
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    and may just go where no one's been.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairylegs
    I rode the Cone last Saturday. As even weekend day, it was supposed to be a mountain bike only day. Certainly, there were way more bikes than hikers (where isn't that the case?) but I did see a number of hikers including one group that a JeffCo Ranger and I passed at the same time (going opposite directions). The ranger didn't say anything to the hikers. I very much doubt a biker would get the same treatment if he or she were riding the cone on the wrong day.

    Now, I realize that this is a petty gripe but shouldn't they just say that mountain bikes can't use Centinenial Cone on odd weekend days rather than going through the pretense of an alternate use schedule? (or better yet- just scrap the schedule)

    As long as the schedule policy is in place, I'll continue to honor it but I wish JeffCo would just acknowledge it's an anti-cyclist policy rather than a "fair shared use" policy.
    This has been noted before and I have left my comments at JCOS. Personally, I don't care if the hikers are there on the bike only day. I just ask that we are not responsible if they get run down. I have told hikers very politely that it was a bike only day. I also said I really don't care if they want to continue, but I warned them that bikers will not be expecting them as they round the corner at 35 mph. They thanked me and left the trail.

  4. #4
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    Its too bad we all can't just get along.
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  5. #5
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    I have no problem with it. Look at it this way. Instead of say 40 hikers, you might see 4. That is a positive aspect. Sure they ignore the rules, but hikers are not in touch with rules like this the way cyclists are because they are used to having all trails open, all the time. It's a new and startling concept to some people. I think it's an honest mistake, and I for one won't get my undies in a knot over it.

    Personally, I would rather have solutions like this rather than prohibition of bikes completely on trails, which was the solution in the past. IE: Boulder mountain parks.

  6. #6
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    It's possible the hikers you passed were actually the trail crew. They've been out there for the past few weeks fixing the ruts caused by skidiots on the switchies. If the Ranger didn't say anything, maybe that's because they were supposed to be there? The trail crew I saw looked like ordinary hikers until I saw them on my return trip working on the switchbacks. There were 6 or 7 of them, in two different groups.

    Just one possibility.



    Quote Originally Posted by hairylegs
    I rode the Cone last Saturday. As even weekend day, it was supposed to be a mountain bike only day. Certainly, there were way more bikes than hikers (where isn't that the case?) but I did see a number of hikers including one group that a JeffCo Ranger and I passed at the same time (going opposite directions). The ranger didn't say anything to the hikers. I very much doubt a biker would get the same treatment if he or she were riding the cone on the wrong day.

    Now, I realize that this is a petty gripe but shouldn't they just say that mountain bikes can't use Centinenial Cone on odd weekend days rather than going through the pretense of an alternate use schedule? (or better yet- just scrap the schedule)

    As long as the schedule policy is in place, I'll continue to honor it but I wish JeffCo would just acknowledge it's an anti-cyclist policy rather than a "fair shared use" policy.
    Never rub another man's rhubarb.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    Just one possibility.
    ...perhaps, though i've also seen the lone hiker(s), or couples, meandering about on the "wrong" day.

    better them than us i suppose.

  8. #8
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    It's easy to tell what days bikers are allowed: The highway 6 trailhead is jammed on biker days, empty on others...
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  9. #9
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    Maybe JeffCO can have a SS day too on this trail. The gearies just get in the way. Last Saturday I must have passed 20 gearies walking their bikes up the switchbacks. I'd rather have a few hikers on the trail than gearies.

    No?
    i want to breathe
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zutmon
    Maybe JeffCO can have a SS day too on this trail. The gearies just get in the way. Last Saturday I must have passed 20 gearies walking their bikes up the switchbacks. I'd rather have a few hikers on the trail than gearies.

    LOL.

    I didn't realize SS peeps could be infected by haughtiness to this degree.

    Following this trend, maybe Apex should be closed to all but shuttle monkeys on Wednesdays.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    LOL.

    I didn't realize SS peeps could be infected by haughtiness to this degree.

    Following this trend, maybe Apex should be closed to all but shuttle monkeys on Wednesdays.
    Does not surprise me. SS'ers are superior, just ask one.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by elder_mtber
    Does not surprise me. SS'ers are superior, just ask one.
    Of course...I'm just kidding. Honestly I have fun on the trails and enjoy seeing hikers, bikers, etc out enjoying the trails. No time to ***** when there's riding to do, eh.
    i want to breathe
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by zutmon
    Maybe JeffCO can have a SS day too on this trail. The gearies just get in the way. Last Saturday I must have passed 20 gearies walking their bikes up the switchbacks. I'd rather have a few hikers on the trail than gearies.

    No?
    I totally see your point. I think that maybe JeffCO can have a levitation day too on this trail. The gearies and SSers just get in the way. Last Saturday I must have levitated passed 40 gearies and SSers walking their bikes up the switchbacks. I'd rather have a few hikers on the trail than gearies and SSer, but fellow levitators would be ideal.



    A trail thatís too difficult wouldnít exist because itíd never be used. But, trails can exist thatíre too difficult for you.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotdirt
    i suggest you cut & paste:

    trock@jeffco.us

    i'm sure they'd appreciate the feedback.
    Are you sure about that? It's been my experience that Jeffco really doesn't care. I have been to Centennial Cone on mtb. days and seen hikers, and personally don't mind. I'm a big advocate of multi-use, and this alternate days on the weekends thing sucks, and I wish COMBA would do more to get it overturned. Let's have Jeffco be at the very least consistent on trail use in their county. I really doubt we will ever see a Jeffco Park Ranger issuing warnings or tickets to hikers at CC on biker days, but find it completely in the realm of possibility that they'd give bikers tickets on hiker days.

    A side note to CC--I love the park, it's huge, and a blast to grind out...but can't they put in a couple more side trails, ala Mt. Falcon?

    R

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by elder_mtber
    Does not surprise me. SS'ers are superior, just ask one.
    Ohh, did some mean old singlespeeder make you feel inadequate?
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  16. #16
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    keep in mind, this is a trial experiment-- which means in theory they do care about what's happening up there. if it is brought to their attention that one user group consistently isn't playing by the rules, then perhaps they will reconsider those rules when making said rules for other parks.

    there is no overturning to be done at this point... we've got to let the experiment run its course so they can draw conclusions based on (i'm guessing) observation as well as user feedback. playing devil's advocate, if they get the perception that, "hey you know the MTBers don't really seem to care if the hikers are there on off days but the hikers really like having the trail to themselves on on days", we might just see more of this policy elsewhere.

    $.02


    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    Are you sure about that? It's been my experience that Jeffco really doesn't care. I have been to Centennial Cone on mtb. days and seen hikers, and personally don't mind. I'm a big advocate of multi-use, and this alternate days on the weekends thing sucks, and I wish COMBA would do more to get it overturned. Let's have Jeffco be at the very least consistent on trail use in their county. I really doubt we will ever see a Jeffco Park Ranger issuing warnings or tickets to hikers at CC on biker days, but find it completely in the realm of possibility that they'd give bikers tickets on hiker days.
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by zutmon
    Last Saturday I must have passed 20 gearies walking their bikes up the switchbacks.
    This is close to impossible. Was it a crew of grammer school kids on a hike-a-bike field trip?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    I totally see your point. I think that maybe JeffCO can have a levitation day too on this trail. The gearies and SSers just get in the way. Last Saturday I must have levitated passed 40 gearies and SSers walking their bikes up the switchbacks. I'd rather have a few hikers on the trail than gearies and SSer, but fellow levitators would be ideal.



    I like your style.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    Nickle is the new Criss Angel.
    Sweeeeet!

  20. #20
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    It was my impression that the current policy was put in place when the park was still being planned (5 or 6 years ago--pre-JCOS user input groups in current form). This is the first time I've heard that it's an experiment. It certainly doesn't say this on the CC Jeffco website. If it is an experiment, what's the time frame that it's being studied? 1 year, 5 years, ?? I'm not trying to be difficult, or defeatist, but JCOS has indicated either directly or indirectly that it will only take input on trail use from one of the user groups (Dave Cohen's group of 3 people, and Dave is fairly pro-alternate use, if you read stuff in here by him with regard to Apex).

    R

    Quote Originally Posted by gotdirt
    keep in mind, this is a trial experiment-- which means in theory they do care about what's happening up there. if it is brought to their attention that one user group consistently isn't playing by the rules, then perhaps they will reconsider those rules when making said rules for other parks.

    there is no overturning to be done at this point... we've got to let the experiment run its course so they can draw conclusions based on (i'm guessing) observation as well as user feedback. playing devil's advocate, if they get the perception that, "hey you know the MTBers don't really seem to care if the hikers are there on off days but the hikers really like having the trail to themselves on on days", we might just see more of this policy elsewhere.

    $.02

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    If it is an experiment, what's the time frame that it's being studied? . . . but JCOS has indicated either directly or indirectly that it will only take input on trail use from one of the user groups
    i'll have to check w/ the COMBA policy folks to be sure, but i believe it is a three year study.

    as for your other point, the TUTF may be an "official" channel, but anyone is welcome to speak at any of the OSAC meetings during "public comment" and/or submit feedback via that email address which is posted in multiple places on the OS webpages. i especially recommend the former, because then you know the decision-makers are hearing it firsthand, as they are sitting in the room.
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
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    and may just go where no one's been.

  22. #22
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    On this subject, does it strike anyone else as strange that, while they try to segregate MTBers and hikers on weekend days, the policy allows equestrians on both days? Seems a little odd to me somehow, as I would think hikers and equestrians would be more compatible, and therefore should be grouped together, rather than allowing horses on bike days, when there are dozens of riders out there.

    I ask because I had a scary encounter last year where I came around one of those blind turns at a pretty good pace and encountered a group of three equestrians -- it was on one of those sections where the embankment is very steep below the trail, and one of the horses reared up when I appeared. Luckily the rider controlled it and managed to back it down off the trail safely, but it could have been really ugly -- the riders weren't wearing helmets, and if my timing had been a couple seconds later, one of them could have easily taken a tumble into the rocks, followed by their horse.

    I'm normally very deferential to equestrians -- not because I'm particularly fond of them putting huge potholes in the trail or dropping huge piles of crap everywhere, but because I know they have been the catalysts behind trail closures to mountain bikers in the past, so I just prefer to avoid problems. But in this case, I was just riding the trail -- totally in control, riding modestly fast but not reckelessly, not nearly full-blast -- but the nature/design of the trail made it impossible for me to know what was coming around the next corner. When I saw them I hit the brakes, but I was only a few feet away from the lead horse by then, and there was nothing I could have done to avoid the encounter short of riding the brakes all the way down the downhill. Ain't gonna happen.

    Of course, I worry about encountering other mountain bikers or hikers on blind turns in the same manner out there, which is why I usually only ride there on weekdays, very very early in the mornings, to avoid all kinds of traffic. But I see the potential for a catastrophic encounter being much higher with a horse than with a hiker/biker because of the X-factor of the horse itself reacting to the sudden appearance of the bike and dumping its rider. Hikers and bikers are a little more predictable. Usually.

    So it just seems weird to me that they allow horses there on bike days on the weekends. Kind of asking for trouble, no?
    Never rub another man's rhubarb.

  23. #23
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    if only the levitators would ride horses, there would no problem

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOby
    if only the levitators would ride horses, there would no problem
    -or if the horses themselves were levitators...
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  25. #25
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    I prefer.......


  26. #26
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    Nickle's been waitng for years to post that picture somewhere. I'll bet its fake! Now Jenna is all real and we'll never be able to see her again. God bless Jenna Fridays.

  27. #27
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    bad clipping masks are more efficient, thereby enabling longer and higher levitations.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    It was my impression that the current policy was put in place when the park was still being planned (5 or 6 years ago--pre-JCOS user input groups in current form). This is the first time I've heard that it's an experiment. It certainly doesn't say this on the CC Jeffco website. If it is an experiment, what's the time frame that it's being studied? 1 year, 5 years, ?? I'm not trying to be difficult, or defeatist, but JCOS has indicated either directly or indirectly that it will only take input on trail use from one of the user groups (Dave Cohen's group of 3 people, and Dave is fairly pro-alternate use, if you read stuff in here by him with regard to Apex).

    R
    Russ, I have to correct you, I'm not pro-alternating use, I'm also pro-ask-what-everyone-else-thinks. Because I aim to bring the feedback of our user group, not my personal opinion. However, if you ask this mountain biker, we need as many miles of bike only trails as possible to offset the current situation. Alternating days suck, but it's better than a bike ban in my opinion. But my advise to the rest of our user group is that alternating days undermine the milti-use principal, and do not solve the bulk of the issue, which is we need more trail mileage, and we need some bike trails. Now remember that some of you guys whined and crabbed and shot yourselves in the foot commenting on my last poll, which was to gather info. Instead we confirmed what we already knew, which is that most would rather complain or run on false assumptions than try to help solve the problem.

    Regards,

    Dave
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  29. #29
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    Why does one user group - pick one - feel like it should have exclusive rights to a trail? It seems pretty ego-centric to me.

  30. #30
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    Nevermind the alternate day issue.... can they please designate a direction so there aren't any head-on collisions around those blind corners???

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbdirteater
    Russ, I have to correct you, I'm not pro-alternating use, I'm also pro-ask-what-everyone-else-thinks. Because I aim to bring the feedback of our user group, not my personal opinion. However, if you ask this mountain biker, we need as many miles of bike only trails as possible to offset the current situation. Alternating days suck, but it's better than a bike ban in my opinion. But my advise to the rest of our user group is that alternating days undermine the milti-use principal, and do not solve the bulk of the issue, which is we need more trail mileage, and we need some bike trails. Now remember that some of you guys whined and crabbed and shot yourselves in the foot commenting on my last poll, which was to gather info. Instead we confirmed what we already knew, which is that most would rather complain or run on false assumptions than try to help solve the problem.

    Regards,

    Dave
    Dave,

    Thanks for the reply. I did not participate in your Apex poll thread, but I did read it, and to me, it seemed like you worded it in a pro-alternating use way--if i'm mistaken, well, my bad. You are right, in a perfect world, more trails would be best. Until there are more trails, multi-use is the way to go (your poll thread proved that). Since you're in the know, maybe you can answer my question with regard to if CC's alternating weekend schedule is an experiment, when does it end? I can't find anywhere that it's an experiment, as alluded to by gotdirt. "Alternating days suck, but it's better than a bike ban in my opinion." When has Jeffco even mentioned banning bikes on anything? I realize Apex is the battleground trail, but still haven't seen any Jeffco proposals in the works to make this trail at all either alternating use, or exclusionary to a certain user group.

    R

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    I totally see your point. I think that maybe JeffCO can have a levitation day too on this trail. The gearies and SSers just get in the way. Last Saturday I must have levitated passed 40 gearies and SSers walking their bikes up the switchbacks. I'd rather have a few hikers on the trail than gearies and SSer, but fellow levitators would be ideal.



    ROTFLOL!!!!!!!

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    Read my BLOG!

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbjedi1
    Why does one user group - pick one - feel like it should have exclusive rights to a trail? It seems pretty ego-centric to me.
    Am I the only one that both hikes *and* bikes? I like the multi-use principle because I choose to travel by both modes on occasion.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by smmokan
    Nevermind the alternate day issue.... can they please designate a direction so there aren't any head-on collisions around those blind corners???
    p

    With the seasonal closure of the Elk Trail for elk calving that precludes riding it as a loop, I don't see how this would be possible.
    Never rub another man's rhubarb.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    Am I the only one that both hikes *and* bikes? I like the multi-use principle because I choose to travel by both modes on occasion.
    hike with the wife and dogs, bike with whoever. we can all co-exist.

  36. #36
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    I just started trail running last fall. I've been riding for 20+ years. I've started hiking again, with my daughter. I don't see a reason we can't co-exist.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbjedi1
    I just started trail running last fall. I've been riding for 20+ years. I've started hiking again, with my daughter. I don't see a reason we can't co-exist.
    Cuz you are on the wrong (beyond 2 Standard deviatons, maybe even three) spot here.


  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lubes17319
    Nickle is the new Criss Angel.
    Sweeeeet!
    The cat, however, appears to be unimpressed.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manmountain Dense
    I ask because I had a scary encounter last year where I came around one of those blind turns at a pretty good pace and encountered a group of three equestrians -- it was on one of those sections where the embankment is very steep below the trail, and one of the horses reared up when I appeared. Luckily the rider controlled it and managed to back it down off the trail safely, but it could have been really ugly -- the riders weren't wearing helmets, and if my timing had been a couple seconds later, one of them could have easily taken a tumble into the rocks, followed by their horse.

    I'm normally very deferential to equestrians -- not because I'm particularly fond of them putting huge potholes in the trail or dropping huge piles of crap everywhere, but because I know they have been the catalysts behind trail closures to mountain bikers in the past, so I just prefer to avoid problems. But in this case, I was just riding the trail -- totally in control, riding modestly fast but not reckelessly, not nearly full-blast -- but the nature/design of the trail made it impossible for me to know what was coming around the next corner. When I saw them I hit the brakes, but I was only a few feet away from the lead horse by then, and there was nothing I could have done to avoid the encounter short of riding the brakes all the way down the downhill. Ain't gonna happen.
    Don't you just love it when folks take their skittish, uncontrollable, mega crapping, fire hose pissing, wildlife disease vector, 1200 pound PETS on to the trails where all sorts of things can set them off and make them a danger to themselves, their owners, and other trail users and they still EXPECT YOU to be the considerate one?
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  40. #40
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    Wink gotta love google

    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    I can't find anywhere that it's an experiment, as alluded to by gotdirt.
    i searched the JCOS site and came across this (TUTF meeting notes, october 27, 2005):

    "Ralph Schell Ė Part of the plan for Centennial Cone is once it is opened up with
    alternating days, we are looking at a three-year time period to evaluate its
    effectiveness."


    i'm not sure when the 3 year period started (perhaps dave knows...). heck, maybe the plan changed between then & now, but i was sure i had heard it was a 3 year experiment, and this seems to back that up.
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  41. #41
    feel the Force
    Reputation: mtbjedi1's Avatar
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    So you subscribe to the Lowest Common Denominator school of thought! Excellent! I enjoy newspapers written at a 4th grade reading level too.

  42. #42
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbjedi1
    So you subscribe to the Lowest Common Denominator school of thought! Excellent! I enjoy newspapers written at a 4th grade reading level too.
    LOL, are you blabbing to me?

    Since I can only deduce that this reply is to me based on contex (since you didn't quote) t, I will assume you replied to me. But, I'm on your side.

    You should realized you battle the masses. I'm not defending them, just pointing out the battle. You want everyone to get along. But wishing is hopeless among the mass of people flowing with the momentum against you.

    Those fourth grade level newspapers have info regardless of what level they are projected at. They represent the pulse of society.

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Feldybikes's Avatar
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    Regarding horses

    Not having a horse ban *sorta* makes sense to me despite the alternating days for bikes and hikers. Equestrians are a very small percentage of the trail users. If they were to get a day to themselves, there'd be, like, 3 people on the trail (or maybe none). You could give them a proportionate number of days (maybe), but that'd be like one day every 6 months. If you banned them all together, then some people, who tend to work during the week, would never get to ride the trail.

    Now, you could make the argument that it's fine that they should never get to ride the trail, but given that you want to let them ride sometimes, how do you realistically make a horse only day? Personally, I would argue to put them on the hiker day.

    As for hikers on bike only day, it does bug me 'cause I agree with the sentiment that a bike would be treated as benignly on, say Turkey Trot, or Mt Galbraith.

    As for the directional idea: I have thought this myself, but the reason it works well at Betasso is that Betasso is 3 miles long. The 'Cone is 13 miles long and not everyone wants to ride the whole loop. I generally do, but I think people should have the option of doing a shorter out'n'back or skipping the double track section and just riding all the singletrack out'n'back.

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