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  1. #1
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    Upset Come ON Apex and front range mtbr's!

    My wife and a friend were hiking at Apex last evening. Being Thursday evening, of course there were lots of bikes on the trail. What was troubling was the total disregard for hikers many of these idiots on bikes showed. Many bombed by my wife and her friend (eventhough they didn't have right of way)almost hitting them, and many more were just plain rude. Apex is already on a short list for getting put on a "M, W, F, its hikers, T, R, S, its bikers" type of trail sharing arrangment, or Jeffco just banning bike access. I can't help but get pissed at those who threaten access rights to places I love to ride. It's up to all of us to put a better face on our sport, so we don't end up getting banned from trails we have a right to be on. I get sick of people who think their after work ride is some sort of Olympic trial. It's not a race! Slow down, be courteous, and follow the trail rules!

    Sorry to vent, but it gets me mad.

    R

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman


    Sorry to vent, but it gets me mad.

    R
    Rightfully so, I wonder what the answer to this problem is, more explicit signage perhaps, for those who don't understand "Pass cautiously, with courtesy"?
    Now with more vitriol!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    Rightfully so, I wonder what the answer to this problem is, more explicit signage perhaps, for those who don't understand "Pass cautiously, with courtesy"?
    Pillow cases and bars of soap should solve the problem.

    Seriously though, I think that is what it will take to beat it into the few people out there ruining the sport for the rest of us. We can talk about signs, yell at them when we see it to embarrass them, and so forth...but those type of people only think about themselves and thus never think the signs et al are for THEM.

    I enjoy descents as much as the next bloke, but I am constantly amazed at how many times hikers do a double take when I say hello, stop, or go by them super slow, etc. and say "hey look, a biker who isn't pushing us out of the way!" Or you're are the nicest biker we've encountered today. And I am a self-proclaimed anti-social person too.

    Just some G.D. common courtesty is all these riders need. That is a hard quality to instill in someone who lacks it I'm afraid to say...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiberianYETI
    Pillow cases and bars of soap should solve the problem.
    Rumor has it that oranges, if used in place of the soap, will do only internal damage while leaving no visible bruises on the outside.

    To top it off, they are wonderful sources of vitamin C and taste delicious post -ride in the parking lot after having served their primary function.
    Now with more vitriol!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    Rumor has it that oranges, if used in place of the soap, will do only internal damage while leaving no visible bruises on the outside.

    To top it off, they are wonderful sources of vitamin C and taste delicious post -ride in the parking lot after having served their primary function.

    *makes note in riding journal*


  6. #6
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    I don't understand it either

    Quote Originally Posted by SiberianYETI
    *makes note in riding journal*

    But I'm seeing more and more riders who don't yield when they're coming downhill. WTF? It is posted all over - can't they read? Or does it only apply to those of us who have a conscience?
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    But I'm seeing more and more riders who don't yield when they're coming downhill. WTF? It is posted all over - can't they read? Or does it only apply to those of us who have a conscience?
    its plain dumb, i just won't yield the trail if i am going up and on the bike (to another biker that is)....it just seems common courtesy is really lacking in general....i don't think signs are gonna make the difference, i believe they know what the rules are and they just choose to ignore them, its one of the reasons i never ride the busy areas during busy times...
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  8. #8
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    I am an avid rider - 5 or 6 times per week. The one time (about a month ago)I decided to hike instead of ride Apex with my girlfriend and dog I was amazed at the rudeness of the bikers.

    One guy was a total ass. We had the right of way, so he pulls over (like he was supposed to) and we move on through. We were in the middle of a conversation when we were passing. I didn't think anything of it, because I always pull aside quickly and let the hikers go. It's a no brainer. But this guy sarcastically says "you're welcome" as he rides off.
    I'll take some blame, knowing that I/we should have been polite and said thank you, but I guess I assumed that since he was doing what he was supposed to do, I didn't need to roll out the red carpet for him. Also, it seemed like such a routine interaction, that I didn't even think twice - or enough to say thanks. Do you thank someone everytime they stop at a red light as you go on green?


    We also ran into a guy bombing down behind a horse. He was riding the riders ass. Then when they got to a point where it was time to pass, he gets into it with the horserider. They got straight up rude with each other. All I could think about was how this horserider was going to be at the next jeffco trail use meeting with another anecdotal story of biker rudeness.

    A couple of other touchy passes happened with bikers. I must say that 3 or 4 times I stepped off the trail to let people ride by. They were amazed and I explained I was a rider too. Their amazement leads me to believe that some hikers have been outwardly vicious back to them.

    In contrast to apex, interaction seems pretty good during my experiences at Lair of the Bear. Everyone is polite when passing. All groups. Wonder why....

  9. #9
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    This is probably one reason why the trails are getting wider too...it is easier to widen a trail than it is to educate losers on when to yield, pass, stop, etc. and it minimizes impact between user groups.

  10. #10
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    I was riding apex yesterday afternoon and didn't encounter any rude bikers.

    Bikers are generally ruder to other bikers than to hikers.

    I was there from 4:30 to 6:30 and everybody seemed unusually good spirited.

    Sorry they met some rudies, I know if I encountered them I yeilded and said have a nice hike.

    I'm sure they had a relatively descent time anyway, the wildflowers alone would overshadow a jackass on bike.

  11. #11
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    To many knuckleheads

    Part of the problem with a fringe sport becoming mainstream is that anybody can hope on a mountain bike, but that doesn't mean they love the sport. The dedicated few who love the sport are the ones you see following trail ediquate. When I see someone hauling down the trail pissing people off I think what a pOser.

  12. #12
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    All those Apex shuttles are finally taking a toll j/k....(old thread reference for those who remember)

    Interesting how things change though....

    ..I remember the day when Boulder County was where all the rider/hiker conflicts occured and Jeffco was a model for courtesy on both sides....Oh, How the dark side sucks one in.

  13. #13
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    This reminds me of the growing pains snowboarding experienced during the late 80's (when you could barely exceed 7.3 mph down a run without having someone tell you that boards were soon going to be banned because of behavior like yours) - only it would seem to me that we'd have passed that stage long ago on the trails.
    Now with more vitriol!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    All those Apex shuttles are finally taking a toll j/k....(old thread reference for those who remember)

    Interesting how things change though....

    ..I remember the day when Boulder County was where all the rider/hiker conflicts occured and Jeffco was a model for courtesy on both sides....Oh, How the dark side sucks one in.

    On that note, I rode Apex a few weeks ago, and encountered a group of shuttlers twice on the trail. Both times they yielded properly and were friendly to boot. Obviously, these guys were aware of the perception, and are making an effort to combat it.

    I run across more attitude from "XC" riders lately - at Deer Creek this week a group of 8 riders didn't even slow down their descent to yield to the uphill rider (me). They just pretended I wasn't there. Apparently, theres a numerical formula involved in yielding - if the downhillers outnumber the uphillers by a large number, the uphill rider no longer has the right of way.

    I sound like a grumpy old man.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLine
    On that note, I rode Apex a few weeks ago, and encountered a group of shuttlers twice on the trail. Both times they yielded properly and were friendly to boot. Obviously, these guys were aware of the perception, and are making an effort to combat it.

    I run across more attitude from "XC" riders lately - at Deer Creek this week a group of 8 riders didn't even slow down their descent to yield to the uphill rider (me). They just pretended I wasn't there. Apparently, theres a numerical formula involved in yielding - if the downhillers outnumber the uphillers by a large number, the uphill rider no longer has the right of way.

    I sound like a grumpy old man.
    i have kind of noticed the same thing from the "racing" type lately...you know the kind with the matching jersey and shorts and there are usually at least a few of them...it seems like they don't want to compromise their training so they won't stop or yield...and to get off on another topic they won't even acknowledge the presence of another rider..i always say hi or how is it going or nod the head when i can't talk and these people have no manners, sorry to rant..
    BBZ

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia
    i have kind of noticed the same thing from the "racing" type lately...you know the kind with the matching jersey and shorts and there are usually at least a few of them...it seems like they don't want to compromise their training so they won't stop or yield...and to get off on another topic they won't even acknowledge the presence of another rider..i always say hi or how is it going or nod the head when i can't talk and these people have no manners, sorry to rant..
    I'll usually just forge ahead and let them decide that they want to yield to the climbing rider , of course I'm always happy to say "hi" and "thanks" afterward
    Now with more vitriol!

  17. #17
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    Courtesy rules

    I've always ridden with the attitude that I want to show respect to all others on the trail, hikers, bikers, horses (I try to avoid horses as much as possible--I'll ask the rider is it ok to pass now? Spooking a 1500 lb animal with iron shoes could be hazardous! I get plenty of practice saying this at White Ranch.) Since that's my mindset as I ride, it's easy for me to yield to uphill riders and all hikers--hikers, I'll slow way down and get ready to stop if needed--it's amazing how many times I'll hear the comment that I'm such a courteous biker, the rest are a!!holes. It surprises me that there are enough confrontations between bikers-hikers to foster the attitude amongst hikers that we're all a bunch of aggressive creeps, but I guess that's the case. Keeping my heart rate up and riding hard is how I ride, but it's just built into me to show respect to all I meet on the trail. And, I expect the same from those I meet. I make sure to acknowledge someone if they move off the trail for me to pass.
    Hikers who don't ride really have no clue about our sport, and riders who try to run hikers off the trails have no clue how to foster goodwill, if they even think about it. I'm reminded of those signs on the Sovereign Trail outside of Moab, which is usually packed with swarms of mountain bikers and motorcycle guys--Show Respect, Ride With Respect--sign after sign. And it is really cool to have all the moto guys wave at us bikers. Courtesy rules.

  18. #18
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    The only time I've ever encountered a$$holes on the trail, they happen to be riding Ellsworths.

    _MK

    Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not just surrounded by a*holes

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    The only time I've ever encountered a$$holes on the trail, they happen to be riding Ellsworths.

    _MK
    That must have been me! Sorry, I didn't put you out of your misery, maybe next time!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    That must have been me! Sorry, I didn't put you out of your misery, maybe next time!


    _MK

    Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not just surrounded by a*holes

  21. #21
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    Not that any of the trails mentioned are secret by any means but this thread is a PRIMO example of reason to keep your trails secret! I drive past Halls every damn night to go home and ride where I know I'll see few if any riders. People in general are just getting rude. Look at some previous posts where riders are questioning who has the right of way?! it's not rocket science folks, yield to the climber/ horsie rider or hiker...smile and enjoy.

  22. #22
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugdish
    Not that any of the trails mentioned are secret by any means but this thread is a PRIMO example of reason to keep your trails secret! I drive past Halls every damn night to go home and ride where I know I'll see few if any riders. People in general are just getting rude. Look at some previous posts where riders are questioning who has the right of way?! it's not rocket science folks, yield to the climber/ horsie rider or hiker...smile and enjoy.
    Well...

    Sure, there are "lesser known" trails on my list but there are times of the day, even on weekends that you can ride busy trails with less traffic. I have a rule of thumb that seems true. The first wave of people riding on Saturday morning peaks around 11:00 am--The worst possible time to ride. You can ride Hall at 9:00 and hardly see anyone. Even earlier is even better but when the runners are out.

    oddly enough, there is usually a 3:00 pm lull as well!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    That must have been me! Sorry, I didn't put you out of your misery, maybe next time!
    Hey guys, the bars of soap or the oranges in a pillowcase are effective, but they weigh a lot. You don't want your attitude adjuster to slow down your ride. Try pepper spray. Comes in small, ultralight packaging, easily stowed in a side pocket. I started carrying one ever since some jerk thought it was funny that his four large dogs wanted to chew my ankles off.
    Once the offending trail user has been sprayed, he is easily pushed to the ground, where, if you aren't quite satisfied yet, you can repeatedly kick him in the nad sack, till he understands the point you're trying to make. Yield the right of way!
    I don't have the patience for those insensitive jerks anymore. Good thing that I don't ride in the heavily trafficked areas; I'd probably get into a lot of fights.
    ****

  24. #24
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    Unfortunately I see no hope for trails staying open for biking in the long term unless we get a little drastic. For the most part it is extremely difficult for hikers, runners and horses to cause the types of trail offense on the trails that a biker can, speed being the main factor. I am either running or biking the trails 5 - 6 days a week and as often as I ride I never cease to be intimidated by a rider who doesn’t slow down even when there is plenty of room to pass. If I feel that way and I ride a lot (and like to ride hard), isn’t it a guarantee that other non-riders feel it even worse? Anyway, where I am going is to suggest that someone who is in contact with park officials ask if we can call from the trails and 'turn in' irresponsible riders. Can we call a ranger, pass on a description and then have the ranger pass out a warning of some kind. This may seem a little over the top, but a little self-policing might help:
    Advantages:
    Bikers are trying to contribute to slowing down other bikers - looks good to others and distances the well-behaved from the not.
    Forge relationships with rangers etc.
    Effective warnings
    Disadvantages
    Squealing
    Scope of behavior - courtesy to others only, probably shouldn’t include trail widening behavior...
    subjective

    Others...

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac
    Unfortunately I see no hope for trails staying open for biking in the long term unless we get a little drastic. For the most part it is extremely difficult for hikers, runners and horses to cause the types of trail offense on the trails that a biker can, speed being the main factor. I am either running or biking the trails 5 - 6 days a week and as often as I ride I never cease to be intimidated by a rider who doesn�t slow down even when there is plenty of room to pass. If I feel that way and I ride a lot (and like to ride hard), isn�t it a guarantee that other non-riders feel it even worse? Anyway, where I am going is to suggest that someone who is in contact with park officials ask if we can call from the trails and 'turn in' irresponsible riders. Can we call a ranger, pass on a description and then have the ranger pass out a warning of some kind. This may seem a little over the top, but a little self-policing might help:
    Advantages:
    Bikers are trying to contribute to slowing down other bikers - looks good to others and distances the well-behaved from the not.
    Forge relationships with rangers etc.
    Effective warnings
    Disadvantages
    Squealing
    Scope of behavior - courtesy to others only, probably shouldn�t include trail widening behavior...
    subjective

    Others...

    One of my main concerns about this sort of approach would be that it may help to provide a stronger case for restrictions on bikers.

    I wonder if the issue is not so much a matter of lack of education, but rather a byproduct of a trail system that is overcrowded. Anyone who's had the pleasure (?) of riding MW @ 10am on a sunny Saturday knows that it becomes nearly impossible to stop and greet other users if you wish to complete your ride inside of 5 hours as the trail gets ridiculously busy. While this is hardly a good excuse to rip down the trail acting like an @sshole, it is easy to see how the less conscientious among us could resort to behavior considered rude by any thinking person.

    Short of expanding the existing trail system (to include the addition of features like FR parks, where these turds can be taught manners by their peers without worrying about them running over half a girl scout troop in the process), I'm not sure how we can hope to avoid further conflict.

    As kind of a side note, I noticed last week that much of Bear Creek Lake Park is now off limits to bikes. Obviously this is not a huge loss, as I haven't ridden in the park (nor do I know anyone who does - save for the Red Rocks Velo group rides) for years and only noticed because I passed through it on the way to my dad's place a week ago. It did upset me a bit though, given that the park was one of the first places I ever hopped on an MTB.
    Now with more vitriol!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac
    Anyway, where I am going is to suggest that someone who is in contact with park officials ask if we can call from the trails and 'turn in' irresponsible riders...
    I say we throw them straight in jail. Or just shoot them on site.

    _MK

    Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not just surrounded by a*holes

  27. #27
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    It's gonna be alright, the long term solution will be everyone learns to ride Muni's.

    1. There is a speed limit on the current technology.
    2. Everyone yields just do to the "ooooh" factor.
    3. They are not bikes so legislation will take a long time to implement.
    4. Very few people can learn this skill so the will be an upper limit on trail use.


  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    It's gonna be alright, the long term solution will be everyone learns to ride Muni's.

    1. There is a speed limit on the current technology.
    2. Everyone yields just do to the "ooooh" factor.
    3. They are not bikes so legislation will take a long time to implement.
    4. Very few people can learn this skill so the will be an upper limit on trail use.

    Better yet, you could limit trail use to those riding the "Strange Red Spoked Wheel of Doom" that you posted last week.
    Now with more vitriol!

  29. #29
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    [QUOTE=DLine] Apparently, theres a numerical formula involved in yielding - if the downhillers outnumber the uphillers by a large number, the uphill rider no longer has the right of way.
    QUOTE]

    There must be another formula for figuring out % chance that the jerkoffs will be riding at the area you choose to ride at. Makes one really appreciate the days when you go riding and everyone on the trail DOES yield/act in a mutually beneficial manner.

    On a positive note, during a ride this weekend every rider I met on the trail at lair of the bear was polite and yielded, a couple even pulled over for me and told me not to stop for them when I was coming downhill.

    Wish it was like that more often.
    If I get lost, don't go too fast!

  30. #30
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    Raising awareness before bikes are banned

    I can imagine the most vocal of hikers, who've been nearly run over by bikers who don't apologize (you know who you are) could raise a much larger, legitimate stink with the officials who control trail access--much larger than bikers who might whine because there's too many hikers on the trail! This is potentially a very important issue for trail access for bikes, and one that, apparently, is not on the minds of the few who don't give a sh!t.
    Us riders who DO give a sh!t, want to keep our trails open and actually disdain the actions of those who basically would ruin our reputation and access, need to unite somehow and raise the awareness of the bikers and hikers involved. So, to this end I propose...
    On weekends we set up kiosks in the parking lots of the popular trails on the front range to raise the awareness of how important trail access is to the biker population in general. By doing this we show the hikers that the vast majority of us do care about trail courtesy and safety, and force this issue into the minds of those who came to ride. I sort of take the side that those bikers who are making this an issue don't really know the ultimate impact their behavior has on how hikers and others view us. It's not that they mean harm, they are just cavalier about the after effects of scaring the pee out of one or more hiker. Or maybe they do mean harm, I don't know.
    The kiosks would have signs like "Ride with respect" "Slow down, courtesy rules". The hiking public sees we're trying to do something about the "problem". We approach bikers unloading their rides and, friendly-like, say, please be courteous to all others on the trail. It's a simple message that I think would go a long way.
    I don't agree at all with reporting rude behavior. That just opens up a Pandora's box of problems, not the least of which are identifying who the culprit is (was) and actually ticketing them. Showing EVERYONE in the parking lots with these kiosks are manned by riders (have your bikes leaning against the kiosk) would make a good impression. No policing, no arguing, just public efforts to raise awareness.

  31. #31
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    play nice or go home

    A couple of years ago my wife, the dog and i were out hiking on a local trail and saw a few riders coming so we moved off the trail and let them by..A few minutes later some racer wanta be comes tearing down the trail yelling at us to move off of his national forest trail..We moved off just in time cause he wasnt slowing down at all..Just another rude biker giving us all a bad name.. I always slow down and say high to hikers or horseriders cause we are all out there to enjoy the great outdoors..

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    I can imagine the most vocal of hikers, who've been nearly run over by bikers who don't apologize (you know who you are) could raise a much larger, legitimate stink with the officials who control trail access--much larger than bikers who might whine because there's too many hikers on the trail! This is potentially a very important issue for trail access for bikes, and one that, apparently, is not on the minds of the few who don't give a sh!t.
    Us riders who DO give a sh!t, want to keep our trails open and actually disdain the actions of those who basically would ruin our reputation and access, need to unite somehow and raise the awareness of the bikers and hikers involved. So, to this end I propose...
    On weekends we set up kiosks in the parking lots of the popular trails on the front range to raise the awareness of how important trail access is to the biker population in general. By doing this we show the hikers that the vast majority of us do care about trail courtesy and safety, and force this issue into the minds of those who came to ride. I sort of take the side that those bikers who are making this an issue don't really know the ultimate impact their behavior has on how hikers and others view us. It's not that they mean harm, they are just cavalier about the after effects of scaring the pee out of one or more hiker. Or maybe they do mean harm, I don't know.
    The kiosks would have signs like "Ride with respect" "Slow down, courtesy rules". The hiking public sees we're trying to do something about the "problem". We approach bikers unloading their rides and, friendly-like, say, please be courteous to all others on the trail. It's a simple message that I think would go a long way.
    I don't agree at all with reporting rude behavior. That just opens up a Pandora's box of problems, not the least of which are identifying who the culprit is (was) and actually ticketing them. Showing EVERYONE in the parking lots with these kiosks are manned by riders (have your bikes leaning against the kiosk) would make a good impression. No policing, no arguing, just public efforts to raise awareness.

    This sounds like a perfect opportunity for local shops to gain some free advertising - kind of like "adopt a street", only better.
    Now with more vitriol!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla
    Better yet, you could limit trail use to those riding the "Strange Red Spoked Wheel of Doom" that you posted last week.
    Hell, those are so hard, they should be allowed off-trail and in shopping malls!

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    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-30-2004, 09:14 AM
  5. What are the best gnarly trails on the front range?
    By SevenInches in forum Colorado - Front Range
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 04-27-2004, 11:37 AM

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