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  1. #1
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    Centennial Cone Closure Reminder

    Just a reminder Centennial Cone Park will be closed December 1st through January 31st for the annual elk and deer late season hunt. Only licensed & Open Space permitted hunters will be allowed in the park. Following the hunt, the Elk Range Trail and park interior will be closed starting February 1 through calving season (typically mid-June).

  2. #2
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    are the hunters related to hitlersszzz?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken View Post
    are the hunters related to hitlersszzz?
    Well, you could say culling is kind of like that, if you are talking about a specific species.

    Culling is the process of removing animals from a group based on specific criteria. This is done either to reinforce certain desirable characteristics or to remove certain undesirable characteristics from the group.

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    Close the park so Elk can breed.

    Close the park so Elk can be shot.

    So is the cycle of life...

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    Tip of the Day: Elk love Triscuits.

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    So your saying if i get a license and an open space permit I can still ride there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobGolden View Post
    So your saying if i get a license and an open space permit I can still ride there?
    That is an excellent question! My guess is no, since it says that the park is closed to all other use except hunting (hunting is not biking, though it does require hiking - hmmmm). Getting a license is next to impossible and I believe at their discretion


    Hunting at Centennial Cone Park


    The late season hunting access at Centennial Cone Park occurs December 1 through January 31 of each year. The property is closed to all other use during this season.

    To Apply: CDOW License

    Permit applicants must hold a valid late season antlerless elk, female or either sex deer license issued by Colorado Division of Wildlife for the Jeffco portion of Game Management Unit 38. Private Land Only licenses are not valid at Centennial Cone Park.

    Jefferson County Open Space access applications are generally due to Jefferson County Open Space in September. Access permits are limited to 55 elk and 25 deer license holders. Hunters will be allowed to enter the property for hunting anytime during the late season, December through January, except on designated "rest" days. Each hunter will get a copy of the schedule showing the rest days in advance.

    Before gaining access to Centennial Cone, successful applicants are required to complete JCOS hunting orientation, which is held in early November. Hunter orientations are only mandatory for first-time, permitted hunters that have not completed the orientation in prior years.
    Hunters holding a JCOS access permit may only hunt during the time frame specified on their access permit.


    Contact: Colleen Gadd
    Visitor Resource Protection Supervisor
    Phone:303-271-5995

    Why Allow Hunting: Elk populations are not being taken by the natural predators including black bear (ineffective) and mountain lions. Unchecked, populations could double in 4-5 years.

    Over browsing by elk decreases plant density and diversity altering succession of plant communities that provide food and cover for other wildlife (small mammals and birds). Good habitat, native plant communities and diverse wildlife currently exist and the Open Space goal is to maintain the resource.

    Other management tools (trapping, fertility inhibitors) are not feasible, not acceptable by the public or have limited effect.

    Jefferson County Open Space envisions responsible elk and wildlife management on the property.

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    Thought you had live in the top-of-Apex neighborhood to get rubber stamped for exclusive C-cone access.
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

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    I suppose you have to be a legal citizen of the United States too? Damn rules everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggs View Post
    Close the park so Elk can breed.

    Close the park so Elk can be shot.

    So is the cycle of life...
    My thoughts exactly.... interesting policy Jeffco has there. Something that stupid usually comes straight from Boulder.

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    Mitch: As a JCOS volunteer myself (trail building), I appreciate your efforts on behalf of the mtb community in passing on JCOS rules and helping to enforce them. But shouldn't there come a time when we question blind obedience to authority?

    Now one of my favorite trails, Mayhem Gulch, will be closed because a handful of hunters, far fewer than the trail's hikers and bikers, are closing it. Jeffco has a need to thin the herd but couldn't this be done in a smarter way?

    For example, Dakota County, Minnesota parks department closes the park annually from 6 am to 10 am for a few weeks for deer herd thinning. Firstly, amateur hunters are allowed in and then when they invariably fail to achieve the requisite number of kills, professional hunters finish the work. The other park users, hikers, skiers, and bikers, can still have their day in the woods.

    JCOS knows that they can push bikers around and there won't be complaints and that's why they do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    Mitch: As a JCOS volunteer myself (trail building), I appreciate your efforts on behalf of the mtb community in passing on JCOS rules and helping to enforce them. But shouldn't there come a time when we question blind obedience to authority?
    I do not disagree with you. In all the times I have ridden at CC, I have never seen a single elk or even signs of one. Deer yes, elk no.

    However, I think what they are trying to do is close the park for migration period (this being the beginning of it). I was told that the elk heard in CC was the last remaining wild heard in Colorado. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean, but JCOS values the annual migration in CC. I guess the Elk in Evergreen are not as valuable.

    In the long run, the hunter closure is more about safety. When you have a few hundred yahoos gunning for elk in 3000 acres (I think), bullets would be flying everywhere. I'm not sure I'd want to be in the middle of that.

    As for the calving, I don't see the need for a closure. Try getting close to the calf when momma elk is around.

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    GoldenGeezer I'd say JCOS has the right idea. If they can manage the herd without have to spend tax payer money to hire professional shooters that shoot and then likely waste the meat, then JCOS is doing this correctly. Maybe if Dakota County, Minnesota parks would allow hunters a little more time they would meet their goal without it costing tax payers. You also have to remember the Minnesota deer herd is far different than the Colorado Elk herd.

    C

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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    I do not disagree with you. In all the times I have ridden at CC, I have never seen a single elk or even signs of one. Deer yes, elk no.
    There is a large herd in CC. I've seen them, and they can see/smell you long before you ever get near them.

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    Hunters are not "yahoos".

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    There is a large herd in CC. I've seen them, and they can see/smell you long before you ever get near them.
    Especially, when it's a Randian nut-case yapping about far-fetched Hitler analogies.

    Don't you know elk are telepathic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    Hunters are not "yahoos".
    Sorry.

    Wahoos!



    FTR: I have nothing against hunting. I would love to bag an elk and fill the freezer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    Many hunters are not "yahoos".
    Fixed that for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    I guess the Elk in Evergreen are not as valuable.
    They are just too easy to shoot in Evergreen, this was just off the Elk Meadow trail back in early spring, there were just as many on the other side of the trail.


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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    I would love to bag an elk and fill the freezer.
    Is it legal to kill one that is being a nuisance in your yard?
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    Is it legal to kill one that is being a nuisance in your yard?
    only if someone sees you....

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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    Is it legal to kill one that is being a nuisance in your yard?
    I wish, but it is not.

    I have about 75 mule deer I'd like to take out. Bastards aren't even afraid of the dogs anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers View Post
    As for the calving, I don't see the need for a closure. Try getting close to the calf when momma elk is around.
    Calving is a sensitive and crucial time for elk and a lot of other ungulate species. They need to be able to nurse their calves as undisturbed as possible. It's best to leave them alone. They depend on that for their lives, you and I are riding bikes for entertainment.

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    Geez, I thought this thread was about the hunt closure not the calving closure. These are diametrically opposite, as I see it. My point was that JCOS can issue an edict which affects many for the benefit of a few and perhaps a few question it but they are silent. Take the nesting closure on NTM as another example. A huge (I think ugly) barrier was erected announcing a closure due to nesting birds. No data to support such an action and basically saying "shove it, this is the way it is". IMO, JCOS has hired some biologists who, if right, should be making their case to the public when they hand down closures. Believe me, I am an old Berkeley liberal and and totally for good environmental stewardship based on good science and appropriately explained to the public. To hand down rules without the teachings is counterproductive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    Geez, I thought this thread was about the hunt closure not the calving closure. These are diametrically opposite, as I see it. My point was that JCOS can issue an edict which affects many for the benefit of a few and perhaps a few question it but they are silent. Take the nesting closure on NTM as another example. A huge (I think ugly) barrier was erected announcing a closure due to nesting birds. No data to support such an action and basically saying "shove it, this is the way it is". IMO, JCOS has hired some biologists who, if right, should be making their case to the public when they hand down closures. Believe me, I am an old Berkeley liberal and and totally for good environmental stewardship based on good science and appropriately explained to the public. To hand down rules without the teachings is counterproductive.
    I would agree as there are just as many nesting raptors on the south side of the mountain and that there is a trail which remains open directly below the nesting area. The whole NTM closure and redo is a very odd thing. Close trails to protect and then build a huge parking area to attract fifty times more visitors than were there before. Very odd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    Calving is a sensitive and crucial time for elk and a lot of other ungulate species. They need to be able to nurse their calves as undisturbed as possible. It's best to leave them alone. They depend on that for their lives
    You do see the irony that this is in the "Closed for Hunting" thread. We need to close it off so they can reproduce and then we need to close it off because we need to shoot them because they have reproduced so well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobGolden View Post
    You do see the irony that this is in the "Closed for Hunting" thread. We need to close it off so they can reproduce and then we need to close it off because we need to shoot them because they have reproduced so well.
    Kind of like humans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobGolden View Post
    You do see the irony that this is in the "Closed for Hunting" thread. We need to close it off so they can reproduce and then we need to close it off because we need to shoot them because they have reproduced so well.
    That's not irony. It's management.

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    Back to my beef for a moment: the hunt closure, especially of Mayhem Gulch. The biologists at JCOS, (I admire their dedication towards the goal of assuring that we have wildlife to enjoy) should have more to do than just propose and get approved closures. Think about it; what are they going to put on their performance appraisals at year's end if not sponsoring closures. They could be educating the public, pulling noxious invasive weeds, performing wildlife surveys, all sorts of things. But a closure is a real achievement which should merit a raise, don't you think? But the closures keep coming down and the trail users just take it every time, don't they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    Back to my beef for a moment: the hunt closure, especially of Mayhem Gulch. The biologists at JCOS, (I admire their dedication towards the goal of assuring that we have wildlife to enjoy) should have more to do than just propose and get approved closures. Think about it; what are they going to put on their performance appraisals at year's end if not sponsoring closures. They could be educating the public, pulling noxious invasive weeds, performing wildlife surveys, all sorts of things. But a closure is a real achievement which should merit a raise, don't you think? But the closures keep coming down and the trail users just take it every time, don't they?

    So is your theory based on any real factual knowledge and on hand experience? Do you actually know any of the people who you are slandering?

    Just curious.

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    ZRM: You have a point here. But I'm at a loss to explain the broad-brush closures issued by JCOS. Perhaps if the biologists i've slandered, as you say, would explain their rationale to the public then the closures would go down more easily, at least with me. For example, the seasonal closure on NTM stated purpose is the protect raptors which are nesting in the cliffs. But the closed trail doesn't go by the cliffs. Or maybe the zone of influence of trail users is much larger than I think. How would I know without the biologists educating me? Similarly, the hunting closure at CT needs explanation. Is it for safety reasons? Is it because trail users will spook the elk rendering the hunt less effective? Why can't the closure be for a limited number of hours per day? Let's hear the rationale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    ZRM:How would I know without the biologists educating me? Similarly, the hunting closure at CT needs explanation. Is it for safety reasons? Is it because trail users will spook the elk rendering the hunt less effective? Why can't the closure be for a limited number of hours per day? Let's hear the rationale.
    I think there is a fear in any OS department that if they tell people the
    real reasons why they close some areas, that those areas then become
    magnets for people. You could call it the "oh, my dog doesn't bite"
    syndrome or "my **** doesn't stink". I think they really struggle with that
    issue. "Do we tell everyone and hope they stay out, or do we just close it
    all off and say there is another reason?" .

    At CNT. I think the issue is that the elk can see you from very far away.
    Like they can see you getting out of your car in the parking lots.

    IMHO unless you can speak elk, no one knows for sure why any animal acts
    the way they do. Anything a wildlife biologist does is just an educated
    guess. Does the trail have impacts? maybe, then how are you going to
    measure impacts? based on what historical data? what is an acceptable
    impact? where is the control? do the animals become conditioned to
    human contact? is that bad?

    You see their dilemma. They can only try to apply common sense to each
    individual situation based on past experiences/education.

    My personal opinion...

    Yes, I'm a huge bike advocate, but I also would like to see more seasonal
    closures and night time bans. I say give the animals a break. I think in
    the daytime, animals expect human contact. It's been that way for
    millions of years. However until recently we didn't have the technology
    that allows us to venture out the way we do today in the dark or cold, or
    in the numbers we do. IMHO that probably has a negative impact. So
    maybe it's a good idea to let these areas have a rest periodically. Don't
    you think?

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    Mountain biker: The world's most entitled specie

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    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
    ― Isaac Asimov

    I think the big problem with understanding scientists, for a layman, is that most layman don't have the background education required to understand the analysis and results of scientific studies being done. You don't know what you don't know... I could try to explain a scientific theory to a layman, but they may never come close to understanding it. The people who do understand and live in the world of science have dedicated their lives to studying and trying to understand very technical scientific ideas. Then some uneducated moran comes along and says he just has a gut feeling that the scientist is wrong - and decides to live in ignorance. People still think the word "theory" means "hypothesis" - just an educated guess that hasn't been tested... gravity is just a theory... evolution is just a theory.. you hear people misrepresenting the word theory all the time. I guess I just accept that there are tons of scientific experts that have far more knowledge about such things than I do, and quite possibly could know something that I haven't taken the time and effort to learn about. Maybe my ignorance isn't as good as their knowledge?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSD303 View Post
    I guess I just accept that there are tons of scientific experts that have far more knowledge about such things than I do, and quite possibly could know something that I haven't taken the time and effort to learn about. Maybe my ignorance isn't as good as their knowledge?

    Science today is nothing more than biased, educated opinion driven by profit and greed. The truth is out there, but you have to find it yourself.

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    Way to use your gut to find the real truthiness out there, UT!

    <div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><embed src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:video:colbertnation.com:24039" width="512" height="288" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" base="." flashVars=""></embed><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b>The Colbert Report</b> <br/>Get More: <a href='http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episodes/'>Colbert Report Full Episodes</a>,<a href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a>,<a href='http://www.colbertnation.com/video'>Video Archive</a></p></div></div>

    And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness.

    Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen.

    Who's Britannica to tell me the Panama Canal was finished in 1914? If I want to say it happened in 1941, that's my right.

    I don't trust books. They're all fact, no heart. And that's exactly what's pulling our country apart today. Because face it, folks, we are a divided nation. Not between Democrats or Republicans, or conservatives and liberals, or tops and bottoms. No, we are divided by those who think with their head, and those who know with their heart.

    Consider Harriett Miers. If you think about Harriett Miers, of course her nomination's absurd! But the President didn't say he thought about his selection, he said this:

    President Bush: "I know her heart."

    Notice how he said nothing about her brain? He didn't have to. He feels the truth about Harriett Miers. And what about Iraq? If you think about it, maybe there are a few missing pieces to the rationale for war. But doesn't taking Saddam out feel like the right thing...right here in the gut? Because that's where the truth comes from, ladies and gentlemen...the gut.

    Did you know that you have more nerve endings in your stomach than in your head? Look it up. Now, somebody's gonna say "I did look that up and its wrong." Well, Mister, that's because you looked it up in a book. Next time, try looking it up in your gut. I did. And my gut tells me that's how our nervous system works.

    Now I know some of you may not trust your gut...yet. But with my help you will. The "truthiness" is, anyone can read the news to you. I promise to feel the news...at you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    Science today is nothing more than biased, educated opinion driven by profit and greed. The truth is out there, but you have to find it yourself.
    All those fat cat scientists out there with their fancy late 90s Subarus!

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    Science today is nothing more than biased, educated opinion driven by profit and greed. The truth is out there, but you have to find it yourself.
    Yes, scientists are all driven by profit and greed. That's why they went into science to begin with - all the incredible riches that scientists receive in our society. Why would anyone want to be a scientist in any society on this planet? We belittle their knowledge, and question their motivation - we burn them at the stake for stating their conclusions - and then they get people like you saying that they are in it for the, of all things, profit and greed... How about all the hot chicks? You know they do it for the chicks...

    Where do you come up with this crap?!

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    I think Uncle Trail is closest to the truth. There could be several good reasons to shut it down 24/7 for months long:

    -Damage to muddy trails in the biking off-season.
    -Lack of a consistently active patrol (Mitch?) leading to bad things happening.
    -Difficulty in mounting a rescue in winter.
    -Biker/hiker getter shot by a hunter.
    -Elk more jittery in winter. Apex?
    -etc.

    As my original response indicates it is probably because "shut the damn thing down" is the easiest thing to do. JCOS thinks that they won't complain over there and there is the calving closure anyway.

    I thought the thread was about elk but from the responses it sounds like it's more about sheep!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSD303 View Post
    Where do you come up with this crap?!

    Maybe it was when I was told

    "just give me the data, I'll make it say what it needs to say"

    or

    "you can't wear a full face respirator because perception is everything and a VIP might see you and not vote to keep finding our project"

    or

    the reality that a job in research depends on grants. And grants require results. No results, no grants, no jobs.

    No. I don't think that most people get into science are driven by profit, but if they want to become successful when they get out of college, they learn to play the game very early on. Now go ahead, throw your college degree away and start over (like me). Or are you one of the suckers with $100K in student loans to pay off? Drink the kool-aid, go ahead.

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    UT - You can have all the conspiracy theories in your head you want, but don't pretend you know me, nozzle. No, I don't owe a cent for my education - I worked and paid my way through school. I don't think everyone with a college degree and loans to pay is a sucker, though. I don't pretend to know everyone and I don't pretend to know everything... any person who thinks that they do is part of the problem.

  42. #42
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    It's a vast anti bike, anti fun, conspiracy. Rage against the machine!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSD303 View Post
    UT - You can have all the conspiracy theories in your head you want, but don't pretend you know me, nozzle. No, I don't owe a cent for my education - I worked and paid my way through school. I don't think everyone with a college degree and loans to pay is a sucker, though. I don't pretend to know everyone and I don't pretend to know everything... any person who thinks that they do is part of the problem.

    What conspiracy?

    And if you reread my post you will see I am speaking about a hypothetical
    scientist who goes to school to get an advanced degree. Most people with
    BS's are technicians, not scientist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    What conspiracy?

    And if you reread my post you will see I am speaking about a hypothetical
    scientist who goes to school to get an advanced degree. Most people with
    BS's are technicians, not scientist.
    I'm going to have to let my little brother know he's got it all wrong. His multi-million NASA research grant, that he secured himself based on his own work, pays him out just enough to cover his education, feed his kids bulk groceries and drive around a 2003 Corolla while publishing his doctorate thesis. As a leading researcher in his field he somehow missed these lavish perks you speak of.

    Sure, government does a good job of steering research agendas through NSF grants, but most the graft in the "scientific" community comes from corporations doing backroom deals with managing agency bureaucrats and politicians, not the scientists themselves.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    I'm going to have to let my little brother know he's got it all wrong. His multi-million NASA research grant, that he secured himself based on his own work, pays him out just enough to cover his education, feed his kids bulk groceries and drive around a 2003 Corolla while publishing his doctorate thesis. As a leading researcher in his field he somehow missed these lavish perks you speak of.

    Sure, government does a good job of steering research agendas through NSF grants, but most the graft in the "scientific" community comes from corporations doing backroom deals with managing agency bureaucrats and politicians, not the scientists themselves.
    That's the point. When you become a scientist you are probably in debt when you get out of college. Post-docs pay nothing. If you intend on being employed and paying off your debt, you're going to make sure the results you give to the people who write the checks are what they want to hear. As you can see below. Most research is funded and executed in the private sector.

    I know a shuttle scientist myself. She's looking for a new job.


    Funding of science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Research funding is a term generally covering any funding for scientific research, in the areas of both "hard" science and technology and social science. The term often connotes funding obtained through a competitive process, in which potential research projects are evaluated and only the most promising receive funding. Such processes, which are run by government, corporations or foundations, allocate scarce funds.

    <table style="width: 575px; height: 152px;" class="wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"><thead><tr><th title="Sort ascending" class="headerSort" rowspan="2">Country </th> <th title="Sort ascending" class="headerSort" rowspan="2">
    </th> <th title="Sort ascending" class="headerSort" rowspan="2">
    </th> <th title="Sort ascending" class="headerSort" colspan="2">% funded by</th> <th title="Sort ascending" class="headerSort" colspan="3">% executed by</th> </tr><tr> <th>private sector (industry) </th> <th>government </th> <th>industry </th> <th>academia </th> <th>government </th> </tr></thead> <tbody> <tr> <td align="left"> United States</td> <td align="left">
    </td> <td align="left">
    </td> <td align="left">63.7<sup id="cite_ref-Provisional._3-1" class="reference">[4]</sup></td> <td align="left">31<sup id="cite_ref-Provisional._3-2" class="reference">[4]</sup></td> <td align="left">70.1<sup id="cite_ref-Provisional._3-3" class="reference">[4]</sup></td> <td align="left">13.6<sup id="cite_ref-Provisional._3-4" class="reference">[4]</sup></td> <td align="left">12.2<sup id="cite_ref-federal_or_central_4-0" class="reference">[5]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-Provisional._3-5" class="reference">[4]
    </sup></td></tr></tbody></table>

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSD303 View Post
    UT - You can have all the conspiracy theories in your head you want, but don't pretend you know me
    pwned^

    why on earth are you wasting your time "debating" with that particular entity?

    you may as well be having an e-gument with me

    then again, you'll get moar lulz with he/she/it, instead of just lulz as a response...

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    That's the point. When you become a scientist you are probably in debt when you get out of college.
    If you come out of a full-time PhD program with student loans you did it wrong. My brother's been getting paid by schools to stay since third year undergrad.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncletrail View Post
    what conspiracy?
    qft

    Last edited by WKD-RDR; 12-04-2011 at 06:59 AM.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    If you come out of a full-time PhD program with student loans you did it wrong. My brother's been getting paid by schools to stay since third year undergrad.
    He's lucky and an exception to the norm. Ever since OWS this topic has been in the news. They are the 99%.... isn't that what we've been told over the past several months? I don't disagree with you about people who have debt did it wrong. They should have invested in trade school, but they were suckered into college.

    Student Debt Grows Dramatically - WSJ.com
    Student loan debt on the rise - Oct. 22, 2010

    "According to the 2007–2008 National Postsecondary Student Aid Study, about 56% of graduate and professional students take out loans for school. In fact, the average loan debt for a graduate student is $37,000. This number is even higher for those seeking a professional degree. And it does not factor in undergraduate debt."
    Graduate Students and Loans - YouCanDealWithIt

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFlail
    suckered into college.
    Sucker here.

    Money I made because I went to college >>> money I paid for college.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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