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  1. #1
    mtbmike
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    Boulder County Mountain Bike Advocacy Thread

    Hi - Mike Barrow here.... I'm the VP of the Boulder Off-road Alliance (BOA). We've been representing mountain biking interests in Boulder County since 1991.

    This Thread will be a catch-all for Boulder County, City of Boulder, USFS Boulder Ranger District mountain bike issues. I will monitor this thread.

    BOA publishes an email newsletter, it goes out once a week during the busy season, once a month when things are slow. To get it, visit www.boa-mtb.org and subscribe. A membership form is available at the site as well if you wish to join our group.

    I will be posting plenty of pertinent info in the next week or so. If you have questions or concerns about trails in Boulder County, post them here and I should be able to either tell you about it or point you in the right direction for your answers.
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  2. #2
    mtbmike
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    BOA 2004 Trail Work Calendar

    BOA's 2004 trail work schedule is coming together quite well for so early in the season. Never before have we been able to get commitment from agencies so early in the season. This bodes well for doing a good job of planning and getting the volunteers out for every event.

    The schedule:

    June 5 National Trails Day at Hall Ranch
    June 26 West Mag (signage, maintenance, trail reroutes)
    July 10 West Mag (signage, maintenance, trail reroutes)
    August 7 Sourdough (new construction)
    August 21 Sourdough (new construction)

    As you can see, even though we have five events scheduled, it's actually three sites that two have two events. Here's a high level overview of the events:

    Hall Ranch: This work will be on the Bitterbrush Trail through a very steep and technical section that locals call the Rock Garden. This section of trail has been in a constant state of falling apart since the day the trail was opened. The challenge here will be in planning, design and execution. Boulder County has never distinguished themselves in creating trails that are stable and challenging. They have a habit of 'fixing' a trail into submission and making it more like a sidewalk. BCPOS has made noises that they want our help in the design of the solutions necessary to stabilize this trail and keep it challenging. It should be noted that there is a lot of anxiety on the part of riders that frequent Hall that any change is going to have a negative effect on their riding experience. So this looks to be the most high visibility project in 2004. And from a long term perspective, we really need to teach BCPOS staff how to design and construct trails that are stable and challenging. We will be enlisting the IMBA Trail Care Crew to consult on design of the work.

    West Mag: The USFS completed their Travel Management plans for this area last season and several seasons of work are necessary to get this fine riding area into a condition it deserves. The immediate need will be signage to get the motorized traffic off the singletrack. There are plenty of sections of trail that will require stabilization and minor reroutes, and if the USFS can get some survey work done, there might be an opportunity in 2004 to build new trail to reroute existing track that goes through private property. What this place really needs in 2004 is a detailed work plan that identifies what needs to be done and details how to do it. If we had such a plan, we would likely have free reign to go out do the work in 2005 and 2006 with minimal interaction from the USFS. We plan to walk the trails and identify what we are going to do in 2004 in the early May timeframe.

    Sourdough: This project has been waiting to be done since 2001. This will be doing a reroute of the Sourdough north of Brainard Lake Rd. There's not much design and planning that needs to be done here. We will be constructing a boardwalk over a stream area which should be interesting.

    All of these projects will have a volunteer limit of 50 people. We should have sponsorship and food and drinks as well.

    Want to be kept in the loop? Subscribe to the BOA email newsletter... www.boa-mtb.org or better yet, print the membership form and join us!
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  3. #3
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    Hey Mike -

    I'd love to hear where us internet addicted mountain bikers should bring our friends to bang fists on tables and demand access to the blm land swap up near gold hill! Or perhaps where we should bring friends to stand up and request that we be allowed to be a part of any future recreation plans in the area... I'll promise to behave myself! really!

    D
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  4. #4
    mtbmike
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    Gold Hill – A Future Trail System or NIMBY Private Reserve?

    There’s something happening here –

    The Gold Hill Mining District has a rich mining history… it was first to incorporate in Colorado because so much claim jumping going on that they needed to impose laws and keep the murder rate down. In the years that followed the strangely shaped mining claims that remained where either turned into home lots or were abandoned. Those abandoned mining claims were reverted back to the BLM to manage. The BLM doesn’t want to manage these parcels because they are small and spread out all over Boulder County.

    What it is ain’t exactly clear….

    There’s this law, the Recreation and Public Purposes Act…. It was create to provide a tool for the BLM to divest these properties. The way it works is and management agency like Boulder County can go to the BLM, fill out an application, submit a recreation plan, and eventually acquire the land if they implement the plan satisfactorily. The law specifically states that recreation access must be a significant component of any application. Boulder County has had a reputation with the BLM as the agency that always provides the minimum amounts of recreation on previous applications.

    Many of you may have ridden on a piece of property owned by a guy by the name of Stein. It was a popular freeride/downhill area that got the attention of Gold Hill residents. The County has spent over $6 million to purchase 869 acres, including the Stein property. They are trying to acquire another 750 acres to make a sizable piece of public land.

    It’s time we stopped! Children! What’s that sound? Everybody look! What’s going down?

    There have been hearings. Minimal mountain biking interests showed up even though BOA sent an alert in their email newsletter. But the NIMBYs showed up in force. They don’t want mountain bikers there and they were more than a little emotional. The application being submitted by the County is short on details and even shorter on recreation access.

    Here is a link to the plan and accompanying link: http://www.co.boulder.co.us/openspac..._hill_rppa.htm

    It’s easy to raise the flag and rally the troops when a trail is at risk of closing, but how do you rally support for a future sweet trails system that should be there by law but never will see the light of day because two dozen Gold Hill and Sunshine residents want their private reserve?

    The BLM will be conducting hearings in the Spring of 2004 regarding this application. If mountain bikers don’t show up in force, our interests will be marginalized and ignored. We need to tell the BLM to require more recreation, specifically more trails and more mountain bike access. The County is being way too sensitive to the needs of a few that are unwilling to share the public land they live next to.

    Rarely is it so important to flood a hearing room to have your voices heard. And if we don’t show up in force, the NIMBYs will get their way and a killer trails system will never happen.

    The Gold Hill District is some of the most “disturbed” areas of Boulder County. Man has clear cut it, dug holes in the hillsides and laced the area with doubletrack from horse drawn wagons. Yes, we should be good neighbors and respect private property rights, but we, the citizens of Boulder County, are the new neighbors. I don’t give a **** who you are, you simply can’t choose your neighbors.

    Boulder Off-road Alliance needs your help. This is one of those rare times where pulling out all the stops to show up at a specific time and place and make your voice be heard. It’s one thing to have BOA representatives at a hearing to weigh in on issues, but when it becomes a situation where bureaucrats get pummeled by people they know aren’t being reasonable and they don’t hear and equal amount of noise from the other side, the squeaky wheel will get the grease. We’ve even heard a POSAC Board member comment “Where are the mountain bikers? They just don’t show up.”

    When the hearings are scheduled, we will post it in the BOA email newsletter. To get the newsletter, go to www.boa-mtb.org and subscribe. While you are at it, print the membership form, fill it out, write a check, and send it in. This one is on you; if you’ve read this piece to this point and don’t show up at the hearing, then maybe we don’t deserve to have access.
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  5. #5
    DSR
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    Dumb question, but what (or who) are NIMBYs?

    Just tell us when and where and we should be able to round up some pretty good numbers. S

  6. #6
    DSR
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    Sorry, just figured it out. Not In My BackYards. It's the locals that don't want the trails up there? Hermit-types that don't want the crowds I guess? Interesting... S

  7. #7
    mtbmike
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    mtbmike's glossary and disclaimer....

    NIMBY

    Not
    In
    My
    Back
    Yard

    Last Settler's Syndrome - the tendency of immigrants to close the gate behind them and say, "No more growth!"

    Disclaimer-
    My rant about the Gold Hill R&PPA application is mine and does not reflect the official position of Boulder Off-road Alliance. The Board of Directors have not taken a position on this matter to date. You can rest assured that BOA will have an official position by the time the BLM schedules hearings on the application. And I will certainly have my say in that decision.

    Rather than just take my position on this matter at face value, I implore you to read the application and study the accompanying map and formulate your own opinions.
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  8. #8
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    2003 Boulder County MTB Survey

    Is now posted as a link on this page: http://www.redstonecyclery.com/Advocacy.html

    Check it out. Make sure especially to read everyone's comments at the very tail end of the survey. It's a pretty big pdf file so you may want to save it to your hard drive for faster reading.
    Redstone Cyclery
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  9. #9
    mtbmike
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    BCPOS Survey Available at BOA Website...

    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  10. #10
    Whatever
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    Yes but will they listen?

    Mike - good to see you again at Hall Ranch... and so many Mavericks and Mav forks!

    My problem with Boulder city and county gov't is they do all sorts of surveys, typically with expensive consultants, yet they never listen to the results. They'd rather listen to one NIMBY wacko who shows up to a city council meeting, rather than 250 on a survey. I'm pretty jaded by the ridiculous local politics here...but you've inspired me to get involved, at least marginally. I'll go to the meetings when they have them.

    Chris

  11. #11
    mtbmike
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    What does this survey mean?

    Will this documented evidence compel BCPOS to run out and create new trails? Of course not.

    What is it really?
    It is another piece of the puzzle. It is a tool that we can use to build a case.

    BCPOS needs to shift from being an acquisition oriented organization to a service oriented organization. Make no second thoughts about it, the changes that must happen first are political changes. Now is the time to make that shift; the County is running out of money to buy land.

    When we as a group of hard working, registered voters make our needs known to the people in charge, it will become expedient for them to listen and act.

    Boulder County is on the verge of significant political change. We are losing 2 out of 3 County Commissioners thanks to term limits. The potential for significant positive change is there.

    Sidelight- The City of Boulder is simply a more complex, nasty animal. Never confuse the two organizations. However bad it is in the County, the City has them beat easily.

    Boulder County has the second worst mountain bike politics in the lower 48, right behind Marin County, California.

    The only way to change that is to have people like us do something about it. This is your hometown... We choose to live here and it is here where we will make are marks.

    If not here, then where?
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  12. #12
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    Just took the time to read over this survey last night. Great stuff! Sounds like cyclists want more more more...

    I wonder though... if someone surveyed the other trail users (hikers, horses) would they have the same feedback? Don't most trail users want more options?

    I'm also wondering about the county's rules about cycling. Why are cyclists the only user group banned from trails (see Lichen trail at Heil, Nighthawk at Hall, a trail at Marshall Mesa, connector between Eldardo Springs and Walker Ranch, and most of the city's trail system)? Why are cyclists the only user group banned Betasso certain days? Why are cyclists the only trail user banned from leaving the trails?

    Are cyclists the least organized group? Are most complaints about trail users directed towards cyclists? Do cyclists not put enough time and effort into trail maintenance? Are cyclists the minority trail user? Why are cyclists defined diferently in the eyes of the people making these rules and regulations?

    Why do I often feel that once I put a leg over my bike I become a second class trail user?
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  13. #13
    Whatever
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    One of the big reasons we are in a separate category, and thought of as 2nd class trail users, is that everyone in local gov't who makes decisions is a hiker, but very few are cyclists. This is why it's crucial to replace our two county commissioners with cycling friendly candidates.

  14. #14
    mtbmike
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    Keep those questions coming!

    if someone surveyed the other trail users (hikers, horses) would they have the same feedback? Don't most trail users want more options?

    mtbmike sez: I don't believe that other user groups have been targeted. We have made significant noise and we have been excluded from some trails that the County manages. This survey was a "mini-grant" given to a grad student (I think) and the main goal was to establish a baseline. Mountain bikers have been characterized as "underserved". As for other users wanting more trails, they haven't asked the question....

    I'm also wondering about the county's rules about cycling. Why are cyclists the only user group banned from trails (see Lichen trail at Heil, Nighthawk at Hall, a trail at Marshall Mesa, connector between Eldardo Springs and Walker Ranch, and most of the city's trail system)?

    mtbmike sez: first, You are mixing City of Boulder Open Space and Mountain Parks (OSMP) with the County. Marshall Mesa is OSMP, Eldo to Walker would be an OSMP, BCPOS, and County project, and the rest is County stuff. I won't get into each spot, because each would require a more than 500 words. Suffice it to say that OSMP and BCPOS predisposition to exclude bikes is political. They aren't in the recreation business, they are in the land acquisition business. There is no credible scientific basis for this practice. This is user conflict hiding behind sketchy pseudo-science.


    Why are cyclists the only user group banned Betasso certain days? Why are cyclists the only trail user banned from leaving the trails?

    mtbmike sez: This was a political decision.... BOA turned out in force to the hearing, but some residents had the Commissioner's ear, and this was a decision made by the Board of County Commissioners (BOCC) and staff was told to justify it. Staff made a presentation to the BOCC which employed the less restrictive approach, but the BOCC would have none of it. They were told what the result should be, and their job was to justify it and implement. This is the attitude that we dealt with in the 90's. I have to say that it is changing and maybe Betasso could be something worth dealing with after the election.


    Are cyclists the least organized group?

    mtbmike sez: the most organized groups are the Sierra Club's Indian Peaks Group, the Boulder County Nature Association, and PLAN Boulder. They are well funded, have excellent connections in government, and they never change their message... that message is, "Humans are bad! We must protect these pristine lands from those that would otherwise love it to death!" Their focus is BENEFITS TO WILDLIFE, rather than BENEFITS TO PEOPLE.
    As for organized recreation groups, I would say that BOA is the most organized and articulate of all recreation groups, but that's not saying much. BOA needs to have a paid membership of 750-1000 to really become a force to be reckoned with at a political level.... last year's membership was around 300. What sets us apart is that we have a cash flow that enables us to employ a part-time Executive Director. So much of what an advocacy organization has to do involves organizing events, processing membership, working with agencies and the people in charge. Volunteers simply don't have the time or drive to do an adequate job of it. If we wnat to make sure something happens, you can't count on volunteers. And BTW, we could keep a full time Exec Director and a part time staffer busy. There's so much to do and not enough resources to get it all done.

    Are most complaints about trail users directed towards cyclists?

    mtbmike sez: no, it not about bikes, it's about recreation in general. The horses and hikers don't have a problem with us, it's the EXCLUSIONISTS that hate recreationists.

    Do cyclists not put enough time and effort into trail maintenance?

    mtbmike sez: BOA has logged over 10,500 volunteer hours on trails for every agency since 1991. That's over 5 man-years. We do more work on multi-use trails in Boulder County than anyone. There are some groups that focus on Wilderness trails that may do better, but we can't ride there so we don't help there. Sweat equity over the years has bought us lip service, and OSMP and BCPOS are reluctant to involve us more for fear that they may have to be more beholden to us than they want to. And they are right!

    Are cyclists the minority trail user? Why are cyclists defined diferently in the eyes of the people making these rules and regulations?

    mtbmike sez: I don't have the stats in front of me, but hikers make up the majority of users on BCPOS lands. Those stats do exist. We are defined differently because we really are different and introduce variables into the mix that don't exist when we aren't there.

    I love answering these kinds of questions! But next time, keep the number of questions to a minimum per reply so I don't drop anything between the cracks....

    I have plenty of info about OSMP, but I am holding back on that stuff for a while...
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  15. #15
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    I know lumped the trails that I use most often in the Boulder city/county together. What's the priority for BOA? Is it the county with the upcoming election? Is the city agency a second priority for BOA today?
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  16. #16
    mtbmike
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    The City AND County are the Highest Priority

    We can't lose our focus on either of these agencies because

    * The City and County own the lions share of public land in the foothills, which are accessible year round

    * The City and County are still acquiring land that could be good recreation opportunities

    * The City just had an election where a majority of City Council were replaced. BOA, along with FIDOS, BCHA, rock climbers, runners and paragliders interviewed every candidate and we schooled them on our issues. For the first time, Council now knows and understands our issues. Before that point, they didn't even know there was a problem.

    * Remember the Open Space Tax and how there was organized opposition? I had a hand in that (not BOA)... not because I don't like Open Space, but because the City has ignored recreation so long and this was the only leverage that was available. And believe me, even though it passed, OSMP staff was scared to death of us. They aren't ignoring us anymore.

    * The City of Boulder is still trying to develop a Visitor Use Plan that would apply to all of OSMP's holdings. This process has been bogus since they started this process almost 7 years ago. It is likely that a draft plan will see the light of day by mid year. This is an extremely dangerous piece of work that may require rallying the masses to a City Council meeting. BOA representatives are keeping close tabs on this one.

    * The County is developing management plans for new properties. Mud Lake near Nederland will have a management plan see the light of day this year. And North Foothills Open Space (Heil, Hall and Rabbit) will should have their plans reviewed again soon. And the Heil to Lyons Connector needs the public to push the County toward makign this trail happen.

    * Two out of three County Commissioners are gone thanks to term limits. Ron Stewart, as some of you may know, has seen it in his wisdom and appointed himself Director of BCPOS, effectively setting himself up a job for life. Nobody knows if he will stay after the election. But as the most powerful politician in Boulder County, the only way we'll ever get rid of him is if he leaves.

    As for the Forest Service, they are open doors compared to the City and County. But they have no money to do anything! They are going to do travel management on Winegar Ridge this year, and that will be something to be in the middle of, but USFS staff really
    does listen and integrate our needs and suggestions into their plans.

    I hope that anwers your question and creates a few more....
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  17. #17
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    MTBMike - That's a fantastic quote in your sig.

    I'm sure you've seen my posts about Red Rock Canyon in Colorado Springs. Why is it so hard to wake up bikers to the fact that they need to be involved? I'm getting frustrated and irritated at the "I don't need to do anything, someone else will handle it" attitude.

    Any ideas? "Best Practices"? Great successes in getting people involved?
    "I may be old and fat, but at least I'm slow." - Me


  18. #18
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    Caribou Ranch meeting Tues Mar 9 in Nederland

    I saw this on the BOA email today. I know as of last year it was still no bikes, I think forever. Last I heard wildlife impact by bikes would be "too excessive." But horses and a 100 car parking lot would not. And no opportunities for public input that I've seen. What's up?

  19. #19
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    Rocky Flats Refuge

    I read an article in the Denver Post this week about planning meetings for the redevelopment of the Rocky Flats area once the cleanup is completed. Is that Boulder County?
    The article stated, they are reviewing useage plans that range from very little public useage to full multi-use including up to 19 miles of new trails. Any word on meetings for input?

    Do you know anything about this, or know who might?

  20. #20
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    It's mostly Jefferson County - try this link for more info:
    http://rockyflats.fws.gov/down_map.htm
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  21. #21
    mtbmike
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    I will get to responses next week....

    I am out of town this week. Riding in Georgia....
    mtbmike
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    The world is run by those that show up....

  22. #22
    mtbmike
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    Rocky Flats has a long way to go....

    The Government does not own the mineral rights to a large percentage of the land that would be taken on as a Wildlife Refuge by the Fish and Wildlife Service. I have heard that Fish and Wildlife will not take the land under these circumstances.

    The land that would be churned up is an excellent remnant of pararie. It deserves to be preserved.

    And even if this issue didn't exist, Fish And Wildlife says they would not do anything to the property for at least five years after acquisition. So all of this "planning" is pretty questionable as to whether any of it will see the light of day in our lifetime....
    mtbmike
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    The world is run by those that show up....

  23. #23
    mtbmike
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    No adequate answers for you.....

    I have given your query a lot of thought since you posted your request for tools/methods that would light a fire under the mountain biking public.

    I simply don't have those answers. Our problem is cultural; there's just too much to pay attention to these days. There usually needs to be a crisis that gets the population out in numbers. After all, wouldn't you rather be riding?

    It all comes down to marketing. You must be able to make a connection and communicate with people that have chosen to live in the area, not transients like college students. As I said in a previous post, this is where I choose to live, and this is where I will make my mark. It seems to me that this demographic is your core.

    Mountain bike advocacy is about political action in Boulder County. So the same rules apply for mountain bike groups and political action groups. BOA has only recently come to grips with the concepts of being a political action group, and I'm fairly certain there are members and maybe even Board members of BOA that would not be comfortable with that description. I hate the idea as well, but this is the hand we've been dealt.

    The biggest revelation that I have had since BOA has become political has been the approach taken by our Executive Director, Adam Massey. Adam will be a mover and shaker in some organization or political seat someday. His ability to "become" part and parcel of the political process is his best quality. It doesn't work to "be the opposition" and buck heads, what works is to transform the opposition from within. When you start showing up and and participating with those that make decisions about things you care about, the barricades begin to come down and the discussions become contextual.

    There's something for you to chew on....
    mtbmike
    Longmont Colorado

    The world is run by those that show up....

  24. #24
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    Maps r us

    It seems to me maybe this would be a good opportunity to apply some of what I do for a living (well sort of) and make some spiffy, professional looking maps for the effort. It would be real easy to download the DRG's (quad sheets) for the area then annotate the areas that are going to be worked on. I have 2 gps receivers that can download data to overlay on the maps. I also have the gis software to create professional maps and documents to make your point. One could go so far as to link digital pictures in the gis project at the appropriate locations and I believe we could output files for a slideshow software as well. I'm pretty sure a professional product would go a long way to furthering the cause.

    I'm unemployed (again) right now so I have the time to do the work. I'm looking hard for jobs so I can't guarantee I'll be around by June but if someone had a plan to get moving earlier that might work out. I could definitely stand a wee bit of paying work right now so if that worked out it would be a real good thing but I'll do the work anyway if there's a plan afoot.

    By the way, where the heck is West Mag????????????





    West Mag: The USFS completed their Travel Management plans for this area last season and several seasons of work are necessary to get this fine riding area into a condition it deserves. The immediate need will be signage to get the motorized traffic off the singletrack. There are plenty of sections of trail that will require stabilization and minor reroutes, and if the USFS can get some survey work done, there might be an opportunity in 2004 to build new trail to reroute existing track that goes through private property. What this place really needs in 2004 is a detailed work plan that identifies what needs to be done and details how to do it. If we had such a plan, we would likely have free reign to go out do the work in 2005 and 2006 with minimal interaction from the USFS. We plan to walk the trails and identify what we are going to do in 2004 in the early May timeframe.
    Sorry what?

  25. #25
    mtbmike
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    Interesting offer!

    [QUOTE=bulletbob]It seems to me maybe this would be a good opportunity to apply some of what I do for a living (well sort of) and make some spiffy, professional looking maps for the effort. It would be real easy to download the DRG's (quad sheets) for the area then annotate the areas that are going to be worked on. I have 2 gps receivers that can download data to overlay on the maps. I also have the gis software to create professional maps and documents to make your point. One could go so far as to link digital pictures in the gis project at the appropriate locations and I believe we could output files for a slideshow software as well. I'm pretty sure a professional product would go a long way to furthering the cause.

    I'm unemployed (again) right now so I have the time to do the work. I'm looking hard for jobs so I can't guarantee I'll be around by June but if someone had a plan to get moving earlier that might work out. I could definitely stand a wee bit of paying work right now so if that worked out it would be a real good thing but I'll do the work anyway if there's a plan afoot.

    Mtbmike sez: BOA is in the process of updating their website. Part of that overhaul will be the creation of a discussion board that will have a separate thread dedicated to every popular mountain biking trail in Boulder County.... having accompaying information about those trails might be an appropriate feature as well.... how about showing up for tonite's meeting at Full Cycle and discussing it over a drink?

    By the way, where the heck is West Mag????????????

    West Mag is south of Nederland, west of the Peak to Peak highway, and right off Magnolia Road.... and has the best singletrack mountain biking in Boulder County. Once again, come to the meeting tonite and I'll show you on a map....
    mtbmike
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  26. #26
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    Reynolds Park closure

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike1
    Hi - Mike Barrow here....
    This Thread will be a catch-all for Boulder County, City of Boulder, USFS Boulder Ranger District mountain bike issues. I will monitor this thread.
    Hey Mike, what's IMBA's official stance on the Reynold's Park closure (JCOS, not BCOS, but still) that just happened a few days ago? I just spoke with one of the land managers there, and he says IMBA supported the closure. That didn't sound right, and I told him so, but I still wanted to hear from somebody at IMBA about it.

    bock

    p.s. See the thread below: Attention Mountain Bikers: Reynold's Park trails closed to bikes

  27. #27
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    IMBA has been contacted....

    Quote Originally Posted by bock
    Hey Mike, what's IMBA's official stance on the Reynold's Park closure (JCOS, not BCOS, but still) that just happened a few days ago? I just spoke with one of the land managers there, and he says IMBA supported the closure. That didn't sound right, and I told him so, but I still wanted to hear from somebody at IMBA about it.

    bock

    p.s. See the thread below: Attention Mountain Bikers: Reynold's Park trails closed to bikes
    I gave IMBA a call and will get them to append the thread above. I don't know anything about it... Boulder County is enough to keep an eye on! So keep an eye on the Reynolds Park thread....
    mtbmike
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  28. #28
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    Ideer...

    Mike,

    Tonight was a bit too short of notice to make it down to Boulder but since you're in Longmont maybe we can meet one of these days at the Pumphouse or somewhere like that?

    I'm generally lurking more in Loveland or Longmont these days.

    Let me know!!


    [QUOTE=mtbmike1]
    Quote Originally Posted by bulletbob
    It seems to me maybe this would be a good opportunity to apply some of what I do for a living (well sort of) and make some spiffy, professional looking maps for the effort. It would be real easy to download the DRG's (quad sheets) for the area then annotate the areas that are going to be worked on. I have 2 gps receivers that can download data to overlay on the maps. I also have the gis software to create professional maps and documents to make your point. One could go so far as to link digital pictures in the gis project at the appropriate locations and I believe we could output files for a slideshow software as well. I'm pretty sure a professional product would go a long way to furthering the cause.

    I'm unemployed (again) right now so I have the time to do the work. I'm looking hard for jobs so I can't guarantee I'll be around by June but if someone had a plan to get moving earlier that might work out. I could definitely stand a wee bit of paying work right now so if that worked out it would be a real good thing but I'll do the work anyway if there's a plan afoot.

    Mtbmike sez: BOA is in the process of updating their website. Part of that overhaul will be the creation of a discussion board that will have a separate thread dedicated to every popular mountain biking trail in Boulder County.... having accompaying information about those trails might be an appropriate feature as well.... how about showing up for tonite's meeting at Full Cycle and discussing it over a drink?

    By the way, where the heck is West Mag????????????

    West Mag is south of Nederland, west of the Peak to Peak highway, and right off Magnolia Road.... and has the best singletrack mountain biking in Boulder County. Once again, come to the meeting tonite and I'll show you on a map....
    Sorry what?

  29. #29
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    hey mike its mark from dreamforest mtb. i have a question for you.

    how about the BOA helping the dj/freeride/dh scene by organizing dig sessions at eaton park and maverick? both sites are legitimate, with eaton park an official city park and the maverick jumps being on private property. both sites are maintained by small but hardworking trail builders. but if each site had one organized build session this summer with a large group the results would be truly impressive. it could be a good way to get the hardcore scene involved with the BOA. i have personally spent nearly 3000 hours building trail since july 2001and i have over 125 stunts and about 14 miles of trail built in that time. some of my cohorts also have spent hundreds of hours building as well. remember that children benefit from dirt jump sites as well and making both sites world class could reduce the illegal building that occurs in boulder county.

  30. #30
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    Does Trail Mix need to be revived?

    Hey Mike,

    With the slated trailwork days in Nederland, what plans does BOA have to get local 80466 (Nederland areas code) folks involved. Us high country folk aren't too keen on being referred to as a suburb of Boulder, and I'm pretty sure there is a whole slew of us – and I'm not just talking Randy at Happy Trails – who will want to be very involved in this process. We live here, and we want to have at least some say in how the trails, and for that matter the entire West Mag area, is handled.

    Do we need to fire up Trail Mix once again, or is BOA going to actively seek mountain resident mountain biker's (that's a mouthful) advice.
    Last edited by Pluto Pilot; 04-08-2004 at 08:43 AM.

  31. #31
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    Nimby?

    I think a mountain bike trail system at Gold Hill is a worthwhile endeavor to pursue, but I also think calling every mountain resident who disagrees with what BOA or Boulderites say a NIMBY is not a good tactic to take.

    I don't buy the reasoning that because Boulder has 120,000 people, and Gold Hill only has 500 people residing in it (on a good day), Boulder should have its way. By that same reasoning every town within 20 miles of Denver should abide by the whims of Denverites.

    The communities you discuss - Gold Hill, Sunshine, Ward, Eldora, Magnolia, Sunset, Nederland, Rollinsville, etc. are just that – communities. They are not another resource to exploited by Boulder without question. The impact on these people, their homes and the natural surroundings must be considered, and BOA should be respectful of this. It should be pointed out that many of these towns have their own governing bodies, schools and other town specific amenities, with a high level of autonomy from Boulder.

    Yes, there are realities to living in a rural community with a sleeping giant at your backdoor, and both sides could stand to have a bit more empathy and understanding on trail issues. But, in my humble opinion, to ignore, and even mock the opinions of those communities is a mistake for an advocacy organization, and probably, in the long run, a detriment to their efforts.
    Last edited by Pluto Pilot; 04-08-2004 at 08:04 AM.

  32. #32
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    You make some good points....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto Pilot
    I think a mountain bike trail system at Gold Hill is a worthwhile endeavor to pursue, but I also think calling every mountain resident who disagrees with what BOA or Boulderites say is not a good tactic to take.

    Basically, your reasoning is that because Boulder has 120,000 people, and Gold Hill only has 500 people residing in it (on a good day), Boulder should have its way. By that same reasoning every town within 20 miles of Denver should abide by the whims of Denverites. I mean, who really gives a damn about the opinion of those mountain NIMBY hermits. Cantankerous cranks! Egads!

    The communities you discuss - Gold Hill, Sunshine, Ward, Eldora, Magnolia, Sunset, Nederland, Rollinsville, etc. are just that – communities, with living, breathing people trying to make the best of it. They are not another resource to exploited without question. The impact on these people, their homes and the natural surroundings must be considered, and BOA should be respectful of this.

    Yes, there are realities to living in a rural community with a sleeping giant at your backdoor, and both sides could stand to have a bit more empathy and understanding on trail issues. But, in my humble opinion, to ignore, and even mock the opinions of those communities is a mistake for an advocacy organization, and probably, in the long run, a detriment to their efforts.
    Last November Adam Massey (BOA's exec director) and I made the drive to Gold Hill to attend one of the very few public hearings about this issue at Gold Hill Elementary. We obviously were going to speak in favor of allowing public access on the property and the creation of a trail network that would serve mountain bikers well.

    In my thirteen plus years of attending hearings and meetings, I have NEVER encountered such a hostile crowd. It was so hostile that I didn't even speak. I wrote comments down on a piece of paper, and when I got up to leave, I put them in my pocket.

    What was ironic was that after Adam and I left, the tone of the meeting went even worse! I really felt sorry for the County representative running the meeting; I thought he could have used a flak jacket.

    What we are talking about are about twenty very vocal, emotional Gold Hill residents that have zero interest in changing the status quo of having a de facto private reserve outside their back door. The downhill scene at the Stein peoperty must have really gotten these people upset. Remember, we are talking about twenty people, not the 500 people that live in Gold Hill. What these people want is for the County to spend millions of dollars of our tax money on land they want exclusive access to.

    Now the R&PPA process mandates that recreation be a key component of any acquisition made. If these people want a private reserve, then the County should get not be working to acquire these lands. I do not want my tax money spent in this manner. And I certainly would tell the BLM that this isn't appropriate for R&PPA.

    I am the first person to say that we should be good neighbors and respect private property rights. These twenty people don't want parking lots, they don't want trails, they don't want access for the public. But they certainly want their access!

    These people are reaping real benefits by the County snapping up this developable property and keeping new homes from being built. What we are looking for is access to play on these lands. As a Boulder County taxpayer, I have every right to expect, even demand as much.

    Boulder County has 260,000 residents. And yes, I don't think it's appropriate that 20 people have the right to box us out. I do want to be a good neighbor to the other 480 residents of Gold Hill. But for that 20 NIMBYs....
    mtbmike
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  33. #33
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    We can't do it without you....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto Pilot
    Hey Mike,

    One of the basic tenants of advocacy is getting locals involved. With the slated trailwork days in Nederland, what plans does BOA have to get local 80466 (Nederland areas code) folks involved. Us high country folk are a bit resentful of being referred to as a suburb of Boulder, and I'm pretty sure there is a whole slew of us – and I'm not just talking Randy at Happy Trails – who will want to be very involved in this process. We live here, and we want a say in how the trails, and for that matter the entire West Mag area, is handled.

    Do we need to fire up Trail Mix once again, or is BOA going to actively seek mountain resident mountain biker's (that's a mouthful) advice.

    I pulled this off the IMBA website that refers to exactly this issue...

    Cultivate Your Rural Areas.
    Often your support network is strong in urban areas when the battle over trails is rural. Next time you ride your favorite rural trails, drop in on the local sport shop and leave a business card at the local café.
    I have have extensive conversations with Randy Ruhle at Happy Trails about this. We are working with him to contact the Nederland Chamber of Commerce to get their long term support for projects of this nature.

    Remember, Winegar Ridge Travel Management is going to happen this year; that's another trail network that will be revisited, evealuated, and hopefully certified. And then we'll have more trails that require maintenance that the USFS doesn't have the money to maintain.

    Should Trail Mix reform and rejuvenate? I don't have that answer for you. I personally would prefer that Nedheads join BOA; why recreate the wheel? We already have relationships with the agencies, we have tools, even a part-time exec director.

    Even though BOA may work with the City of Boulder, any improvements in aceess we may accomplish with the City hopefully benefits Ned because less people would be making the trip up the canyon. And of course you know that the County has a big presence in Ned; and that presence will only grow over time.

    BOA feels that local participation is not only desired, it's imperative. We need to be working with the Forest Watch people to keep that area safe and not trashed. In the last couple of years, BOA's Trail Leader resource has diminished because the agencies have had a lackadaisical attitude toward using volunteer help on trails. It's been a pain in the ass just to get commitment from them on dates, and even harder to spec out exactly what is to be done on during that event.

    It is our hope that we can work wth the USFS to develop a multi year work plan for West Mag (and the dots after the travel management) so we can have freer reign to just go get the work done.

    There's so much that needs to be done.... why spend the energy to organize another group that does the same thing as BOA? I can tell you that we've spent plenty of energy to get our oganization properly organized and I fell lucky to have the active Board of Directors that BOA now enjoys.

    Talk to Randy Ruhle.... I believe he agrees with me. And when you are ready to join us, go to the website, print the form, and send us a check! And contact me directly if you want more info.... mtbmike@us.ibm.com
    mtbmike
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  34. #34
    mtbmike
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    an interesting invitation....

    Quote Originally Posted by dream4est
    hey mike its mark from dreamforest mtb. i have a question for you.

    how about the BOA helping the dj/freeride/dh scene by organizing dig sessions at eaton park and maverick? both sites are legitimate, with eaton park an official city park and the maverick jumps being on private property. both sites are maintained by small but hardworking trail builders. but if each site had one organized build session this summer with a large group the results would be truly impressive. it could be a good way to get the hardcore scene involved with the BOA. i have personally spent nearly 3000 hours building trail since july 2001and i have over 125 stunts and about 14 miles of trail built in that time. some of my cohorts also have spent hundreds of hours building as well. remember that children benefit from dirt jump sites as well and making both sites world class could reduce the illegal building that occurs in boulder county.
    1) BOA has limited resources, and even less experience making "features" like Maverick's grind park.
    2) We already have six trail work events scheduled; this will stretch our resources to the limit.
    3) BOA's trail work events, because we work on trails managed by agencies, require much more planning and design before the event occurs.
    4) And because we enlist volunteers that have little or no trail work experience, we must have crew leaders to supervise these people. Trail Crew leaders are a finite resource, we need to grow that resource this year and next year to be able to do bigger events. The limiting factor here is our Trail Crew Leaders......
    5) Those volunteers with little or no experience, we benefit by working with the agencies since they put the volunteers under thier liability shield. What happens when someone gets hurt working on these 'features'?

    That being said, I personally believe that BOA could advertise work events for you in our email newsletter. I am not the guy who would make that call, but I do have some influence on the Board...

    I know your work scheduling is much looser than what BOA has to adhere to, and we always work to make any trail work event a satisfying volunteer experince (food, beer, schwag) to keep the volunteers coming back. So I guess what I'm saying is if you can get organized with a schedule, I think we can help you. As for getting us to organize for you, we are locked and loaded for this season.

    But I suspect you don't want BOA organizing, planning, and executing work of this nature that we really don't have much experience doing. Putting in features like the grind park is quite different than what we usually do. I suspect you would feel like we were stepping on toes....

    Want to discuss further? contact me directly .... mtbmike@us.ibm.com
    mtbmike
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dream4est
    hey mike its mark from dreamforest mtb. i have a question for you.

    how about the BOA helping the dj/freeride/dh scene by organizing dig sessions at eaton park and maverick? both sites are legitimate, with eaton park an official city park and the maverick jumps being on private property. both sites are maintained by small but hardworking trail builders. but if each site had one organized build session this summer with a large group the results would be truly impressive. it could be a good way to get the hardcore scene involved with the BOA. i have personally spent nearly 3000 hours building trail since july 2001and i have over 125 stunts and about 14 miles of trail built in that time. some of my cohorts also have spent hundreds of hours building as well. remember that children benefit from dirt jump sites as well and making both sites world class could reduce the illegal building that occurs in boulder county.
    Hey Mark, I live about 3 blocks South of Eaton park, and ride/walk my dog there a lot. This is a quick suggestion, for the benefit of wussies like me.... would it be possible to make smaller jumps for those of us who do not have DH/freeride bikes, also who don't have experience with the big stuff?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MINImtnbiker
    Hey Mark, I live about 3 blocks South of Eaton park, and ride/walk my dog there a lot. This is a quick suggestion, for the benefit of wussies like me.... would it be possible to make smaller jumps for those of us who do not have DH/freeride bikes, also who don't have experience with the big stuff?
    Hey Chris,

    Mark himself lives over at Brandon Creek if you didn't know that.

    What we need are more tabletops, so we can get up to speed for the big doubles. The North Side of Eaton has a track but they need some work. I suppose us not so skilled ought to go work on that part.

    I with you though, I can't get over the threshold to go big and I usually spend my time riding trails instead of hitting the jumps. When I was hitting the jumps, I was doing the table tops and taking pix of the Shauny from the Fixx.

  37. #37
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    The parking lot issue

    Mike,

    One thing that has caused me some hesitation is the idea to construct a parking lot on the Peak to Peak lot near West Mag for mountain bikers and other trail users. Why does BOA feel this is necessary?

    Take Crested Butte for example. Crested Butte does NOT have parking lots at the trailheads of 401, 403, Snodgrass, Cement Creek and a number of other famous rides. In fact, all literature about riding in the town strongly encourages people to ride to the trailhead FROM TOWN, as opposed to driving to the trailhead. This serves a number of benefits:

    1. It gets people out of their cars, thereby reducing pollution and increasing health benefits. Considering Nederland has RTD bus service, it should be quite easy for a perspective rider to not have to use their car at all.
    2. It benefits the town more. If people simply pass through Nederland to a parking lot, they are that much less likely to support local Nederland businesses, something I suspect the Chamber of Commerce would be less than thrilled by. By not building a parking lot on Peak to Peak, you establish a better relationship between the trails, mountain bikers and Nederland residents.

    Certainly if a town like Crested Butte can support, and thrive, with a trail system that does not promote trailhead parking lots (and some of the rides are quite a ways from town...much further than the quick jaunt from Nederland to West Mag), Nederland and BOA can do the same.

  38. #38
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    the small line now has 6 tables in a row. a seventh is gonna be done tomorrow maybe. a lot of work has been done to the small set area. come out and work on the track as its got a big berm that needs more dirt. after the berm jumps are gonna be built in the dirt along the north egde of the park. if you want to ensure that the first couple are tables build them. no one will change them if they are done and "concreted" in. there are at least 6-7 people building on the small line but until lately new jumps were not considered. now the spring has people building small stuff.

    we also want to build the area south of twin lakes into a better track and also establish the loop set that was tried there. that is a great place to learn and build on the small jumps to square them off. gunbarrel has two spots but not enough builders right now. volunteers are always welcome.

  39. #39
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    Parking Lot? Where'd you get that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto Pilot
    Mike,

    One thing that has caused me some hesitation is the idea to construct a parking lot on the Peak to Peak lot near West Mag for mountain bikers and other trail users. Why does BOA feel this is necessary?

    Take Crested Butte for example. Crested Butte does NOT have parking lots at the trailheads of 401, 403, Snodgrass, Cement Creek and a number of other famous rides. In fact, all literature about riding in the town strongly encourages people to ride to the trailhead FROM TOWN, as opposed to driving to the trailhead. This serves a number of benefits:

    1. It gets people out of their cars, thereby reducing pollution and increasing health benefits. Considering Nederland has RTD bus service, it should be quite easy for a perspective rider to not have to use their car at all.
    2. It benefits the town more. If people simply pass through Nederland to a parking lot, they are that much less likely to support local Nederland businesses, something I suspect the Chamber of Commerce would be less than thrilled by. By not building a parking lot on Peak to Peak, you establish a better relationship between the trails, mountain bikers and Nederland residents.

    Certainly if a town like Crested Butte can support, and thrive, with a trail system that does not promote trailhead parking lots (and some of the rides are quite a ways from town...much further than the quick jaunt from Nederland to West Mag), Nederland and BOA can do the same.
    As for the parking lot issue, I didn't know there was one. But your comparison to Crested Butte really doesn't make any sense. Crested Butte is a destination that requires an overnight stay, while relatively few come to Ned to stay overnight. That means people like me will drive up the canyon, pull into the parking lot, jump out and head to the trees to take a leak, saddle up, ride for hours with a big smile on my face, return to the car, buy some grub at the B&F, and go home. I live in Longmont, I don't take the bus. And so do many others that live in Louisville, Lafayette, etc. The RTD accounts for a good percentage of the visitation, but nowhere near the majority of the visits.

    What's wrong with that picture? No restroom facilities! If there's an issue, it's the need to be managed parking lots WITH outhouses and trash receptacles.

    Building a parking lot on the Peak to Peak Highway? BOA doesn't do parking lots, but we have hammered the USFS for outhouses and trash pickup. Travel management is done for this area, and I haven't heard anything from the USFS that they will change anything with regard to parking lots. What the USFS hasn't done is address trash and human waste in this area, something I hope concerns all of us.

    BTW, night riding is absolutely epic on West Mag; the RTD isn't going to accomodate my schedule when I'm headed down the canyon after midnight.

    But I have to agree with you, starting rides from Happy Trails is something I like to do, and whether I start there or drive up the hill to start at the lot along 119 or drive in to where the boulder parking lot is, I invariably stop in town to leave some of my money down in town afterward. Creating economic benefit to Ned is something I want the Chamber of Commerce to recognize and help grow.

    Because of motorized traffic (4x4s, ATVs, motorcycles) we're always going to have parking lots; I persoanlly would like to choke down the number of places where that parking can happen.... but again, this is all about travel management, which was completed last year, and there was little said about parking lots....

    This sounds like yet another item to discuss when we sit down with the Chamber to talk about developing Ned as a day trip destination and how to best manage it. I hope you are there when it happens... and no, we haven't even started the conversation.... one step at a time!
    mtbmike
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  40. #40
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    parking

    what's wrong with parking at either the new RTD Park n Ride or the old park n ride/visitors center? both have restrooms and trash receptacles and are a short distance from trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike1
    As for the parking lot issue, I didn't know there was one. But your comparison to Crested Butte really doesn't make any sense. Crested Butte is a destination that requires an overnight stay, while relatively few come to Ned to stay overnight. That means people like me will drive up the canyon, pull into the parking lot, jump out and head to the trees to take a leak, saddle up, ride for hours with a big smile on my face, return to the car, buy some grub at the B&F, and go home. I live in Longmont, I don't take the bus. And so do many others that live in Louisville, Lafayette, etc. The RTD accounts for a good percentage of the visitation, but nowhere near the majority of the visits.

    What's wrong with that picture? No restroom facilities! If there's an issue, it's the need to be managed parking lots WITH outhouses and trash receptacles.

    Building a parking lot on the Peak to Peak Highway? BOA doesn't do parking lots, but we have hammered the USFS for outhouses and trash pickup. Travel management is done for this area, and I haven't heard anything from the USFS that they will change anything with regard to parking lots. What the USFS hasn't done is address trash and human waste in this area, something I hope concerns all of us.

    BTW, night riding is absolutely epic on West Mag; the RTD isn't going to accomodate my schedule when I'm headed down the canyon after midnight.

    But I have to agree with you, starting rides from Happy Trails is something I like to do, and whether I start there or drive up the hill to start at the lot along 119 or drive in to where the boulder parking lot is, I invariably stop in town to leave some of my money down in town afterward. Creating economic benefit to Ned is something I want the Chamber of Commerce to recognize and help grow.

    Because of motorized traffic (4x4s, ATVs, motorcycles) we're always going to have parking lots; I persoanlly would like to choke down the number of places where that parking can happen.... but again, this is all about travel management, which was completed last year, and there was little said about parking lots....

    This sounds like yet another item to discuss when we sit down with the Chamber to talk about developing Ned as a day trip destination and how to best manage it. I hope you are there when it happens... and no, we haven't even started the conversation.... one step at a time!

  41. #41
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    parking in town is fine, but it's only an option...

    Quote Originally Posted by soulslide
    what's wrong with parking at either the new RTD Park n Ride or the old park n ride/visitors center? both have restrooms and trash receptacles and are a short distance from trails.
    There's nothing wrong with parking in town if that suits your fancy. But the cold hard facts are that parking along West Magnolia Road is a practice that isn't going away no matter how much one wishes it so. This area is open to camping and off road vehicular traffic. Mountain bikers are but one user group in the mix up there. Getting mountain bikers to park in town and ride up the hill isn't going to make the need for parking lots, outhouses, and trash receptacles go away either.

    Let's not detract from the real need; dealing with trash and human waste are the most acute issues in the West Mag area.
    mtbmike
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike1
    Let's not detract from the real need; dealing with trash and human waste are the most acute issues in the West Mag area.
    I've been riding there for several years. I've rarely if ever seen trash on the "mountian biking" trails up there. I've seen trash at campsites and on the main roads (even abandoned vehicles). Call me naive, but i don't believe that a trash problem is related to the cyclist use up there. Get the squatters and campers to clean up after themselves.
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  43. #43
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    True, true...

    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser
    I've been riding there for several years. I've rarely if ever seen trash on the "mountian biking" trails up there. I've seen trash at campsites and on the main roads (even abandoned vehicles). Call me naive, but i don't believe that a trash problem is related to the cyclist use up there. Get the squatters and campers to clean up after themselves.
    I am as certain as you that mountain bikers are not the root cause of the trash problem. But we are certainly adding to the human waste problem!

    But it doesn't matter how it happened; there's a problem with an area we cherish, stewardship demands we at least make the USFS aware of our concern and try to make it better.

    And we are doing just that.
    mtbmike
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike1
    But it doesn't matter how it happened; there's a problem with an area we cherish, stewardship demands we at least make the USFS aware of our concern and try to make it better.
    I agree - and I'll be the first guy to pick up that discarded tube or wrapper or whatever on the side of the singletrack. it's going to be a bit harder for me to pack out that '73 cherokee or that 200 pounds of crap somebody packed up there to make a home. (if anyone's been riding up there for a while they know this isn't an exaggeration)

    when the lefthand ohv area gets picked up, it's a motos and shooters picking up after motos and shooters. if there was a cleaning day sponsored by boa at west mag, it's cyclists picking up after others.

    It's easy for cyclists to organize ourselves to get up there and do some work - it's harder to make sure that when it's reported in the paper or at a council meeting or at the usfs that we're not just cleaning up after our ourselves - we're cleaning up for every trail user.
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  45. #45
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    I think it was a '70 Cherokee... but who's looking that close?

    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser
    I agree - and I'll be the first guy to pick up that discarded tube or wrapper or whatever on the side of the singletrack. it's going to be a bit harder for me to pack out that '73 cherokee or that 200 pounds of crap somebody packed up there to make a home. (if anyone's been riding up there for a while they know this isn't an exaggeration)

    when the lefthand ohv area gets picked up, it's a motos and shooters picking up after motos and shooters. if there was a cleaning day sponsored by boa at west mag, it's cyclists picking up after others.

    It's easy for cyclists to organize ourselves to get up there and do some work - it's harder to make sure that when it's reported in the paper or at a council meeting or at the usfs that we're not just cleaning up after our ourselves - we're cleaning up for every trail user.
    Taking the lead creates crediblity. Actually, I have seen several occasions where the BOCO Sheriff brings court appointed volunteers to clean up the trash left by transients. And secondly, there is a Ned based group called Forest Watch that patrols the West Mag area for vandalism, illegal fires, etc. BOA hopes to work with them and work under their protocols this summer.... why reinvent the wheel?

    So the point is that we aren't the only user group actively trying to make the situation better.
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  46. #46
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    USFS Update... Winegar Ridge Travel Management

    Travel Management is USFS-speak for the process they use to determine what trails/roads stay open and which of them get closed. The Roosevelt NF hasn't had a good accounting of what is actually on the ground for decades and never has done a thorough job of travel management.

    Caribou/West Mag was the first area done with this process and it was completed last year. Winegar Ridge was slated to happen this year.

    Before the USFS can do a proper job of travel management on a piece of land, a thorough inventory must be done to determine what is actually on the ground. The Boulder Ranger District (BRD) doesn't have a baseline of information to work with.

    So in a conversation with Ed Perault, Recreation Supervisor for the BRD, I was told that Travel Management will not happen this year on Winegar Ridge.

    What will happen, however, is a thorough inventory of the trails/roads in this area. The BRD is acquiring a industrial strength GPS unit and will be enlisting hikers, 4x4 motorists, and mountain bikers to help with the data acquistion.

    Persons interested in particpating in this data acquisition process will need to be trained and certified. The BRD will be holding training sessions and the time commitment will be at least 8 hours of training. If you are interested in participating in this program, go to the BOA website www.boa-mtb.org and subscribe to our newsletter. Updates will be posted there.

    I see this development as very positive. There's an abundance of social trails and private property in the Winegar Ridge area. There's also an inordinate amount of extreme enviromentalist types living in this area as well. Having the BRD's act completely together will ensure a minimal amount of cat fighting when the time comes. And without that baseline of information, any attempt at travel management in this area would bog down into a acrimonious cluster *uck.
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  47. #47
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    City of Boulder Visitor Plan

    27% of trail users find cyclists to be an issue...

    http://www.ci.boulder.co.us/openspace/plan.htm
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  48. #48
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    City of Boulder DRAFT Visitor Plan is out... ready for review

    Yes, the Draft Plan is out. Get a copy at the link in the above post. 120 pages, so don't just throw it at your printer....

    I have no opinions of the plan since I haven't read it through yet. Know this: BOA, along with a coalition of recreation groups are working together to speak with one voice on this plan.

    We have been successful at bringing the opposition to the table as well. This Recreation coalition is meeting with OSMP and concerned environmental groups to work toward concensus on the plan with the goal of making changes that will satisfy everyone and publicly endorse the plan.

    That's going to be a tough goal to attain. I would encourage mountain bikers to look the plans and associated map a objective review. Input from the public at large will be critical.

    Stay tuned.
    mtbmike
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike1
    Get a copy at the link in the above post.

    <<SNIP>>

    I would encourage mountain bikers to look the plans and associated map a objective review. Input from the public at large will be critical.
    At the above link, there is a RUMOR CENTRAL link which is really a feedback form. I sent comments regarding the "27% saw this as problematic" and the next sentence, which talks about trails being overcrowded. The feedback goes to the board of trustees and the people who drafted the plan.

    And if Boulder politics are they way they normally are, they will listen to organizations like BOA, but they will listen even more to individuals who are commenting outside of any organization.

  50. #50
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    What's up with the anti-moto stance at West Mag?

    Having ridden both mountain bikes and dirtbikes at the West Mag and surrounding trails for the better part of a decade, I'm bummed to hear about all this "need for signage to keep motos off" talk. There are a lot of places where motos absolutely trash/widen trails and ruin them for mountain bike folks, but for some reason, West Mag isn't one of those places (maybe it's the twisties that keep motos going not much faster than bikes?) My guess is that the 2nd-gear/15mph singletrack trails don't attract many of the hillbilly crowd - they go to Lefthand to buzz back and forth on the 20 foot wide roads instead.

    I mean, motos and mountain bikes have been peacefully coexisting at West Mag for a long, long time. If the forest service just doesn't want motos on singletrack, that's one thing. But given that the trails aren't getting trashed and everyone I've ever encountered has been friendly and courteous, why keep motos off? If you just simply think they're obnoxious, that's fine and I can see your point (though it's worth mentioning that that's the same reason a lot of people want mountain bikes banned from Boulder trails...) And I also agree that letting Jeeps, or 4-wheelers widen singletrack is terrible. But are either of these problems at West Mag? I'd say no, but serious locals may be able to point to some examples of it happening.

    Just as an aside, why is signage necessary at West Mag at all? Part of the joy of the area is finding the trails for yourself - it's relatively hard to get dangerously lost, so most folks find the trails by riding with friends or exploring. Would it be so bad to keep it that way?

    -Walt

  51. #51
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    Change of situation....

    Walt-

    You make a good case; but there are points that you fail to recognize:

    1 Travel Management is done. The time to participate in the process and have an impact on the outcome has come and gone.

    2 Almost all of the singletrack south of Magnolia; west of 119 has been renegade. The amount of trail degradation that has occurred in the last four years has been significant.

    3 Mountain bikers have pressed the USFS to do repairs to the trails. We have been unable to do anything because trails that aren't on their "inventory" are not elgible for maintenance. Any trail that is in the "inventory" has to go through a process called Travel Management". This process decides what is legal and what is not and what to do about both.

    4 Here's the core of it: For motorized travel, everything, EVERYTHING is closed to you unless specifically designated open. For mountain bikes, EVERYTHING is open unless specifically designated closed. So if a mountain bike rides across a trailess meadow, that's okay. And if a trail just happens to form there, that's okay too. But if the trail needs help, we can't work on it. But motorized traffic, motorcycles, OHVs, 4x4s can only go where the arrows are. No exceptions as far as I know.

    There has been plenty of impact because of motorcycles. I don't really have knee jerk negative reaction to motorcyles on the singletrack, but I have seen more guys ripping it up than riding responsibly. But my opinion doesn't matter. I didn't make the rules. The USFS is trying to grow a backbone and manage the lands like they are supposed to. Left Hand Canyon is going to get the focus as soon as this year.

    I really feel bad for motorized recreationists because Boulder County is a bad place for their activities. And I guarantee you, it's going to get much worse before it gets stable.

    It's not about the other users complaining, it's about the impacts motorized use leaves behind in the forest. It doesn't help that motorized representatives aren't proactive and others like mountain bikers are asking to maintain the trails, but the USFS notices this stuff.

    West Mag has been a mess for many reasons over the last decade... the transients, the high school kids partying, even abandoned stolen vehicles. If the motorized community could police themselves, I would have to think that every management plan would not translate into less access for motorized users. If the USFS grows a backbone, that's exactly what will happen because access has been wide open and unmanaged for decades.
    Last edited by mtbmike1; 05-06-2004 at 10:08 PM.
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    We'll have to agree to disagree...

    I don't think I can think of a single West Mag trail that needs any maintenance or repair - many of them are the smoothest, fastest trails in the county already. But it's not worth arguing about.

    Motos are already illegal on unmarked trails, but I've been riding singletrack up there on my old KDX or now my KTM for years and years. I doubt the serious enduro folks (who are the ONLY ones who want to ride 2nd gear singletrack, trust me) will care much if there are signs up or not. Not that I'm saying I'll ride them anymore (the bike will probably get sold this summer to pay for health insurance) but I think the signs will have little or no impact on the trail situation. West Mag was one of the few remaining places that motos and mountain bikes seemed to be able to coexist peacefully, it's sad that those days seem to be coming to an end.

    What the signs at West Mag WILL do is ruin some of the sense of discovery and adventure that was to be had. And no, the fact that it's close to Ned and "everybody knows" the trails are there doesn't mean it isn't fun to explore on your own without looking at signs every 5 minutes. Were the signs the forest service/BLM's idea, or BOA's?

    I think its great that Lefthand is (finally) seeing some regulation. There are some great mountain bike trails up there that few people ride now because of the shooting, trash, and 4x4s. Unfortunately one of the first things they did was close the neat trail that parallels lefthand canyon on the north side, ostensibly because it was too dangerous due to the shooters below. Since when does someone else's dangerous and irresponsible activity mean that I should be banned from a trail?
    Finally, take my griping for what it is. I didn't show up to (or know about, not that its an excuse) any of the meetings regarding the West Mag Trails. I didn't even vote in the recent Boulder elections. So I'll now shut my piehole.

    -Walt

  53. #53
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    Get real!

    Walt,

    First let me say that I am not anti-moto, they have their place. West-Mag is not such a place. Can you really expect folks to believe that there is no damage occuring on these trails from Motos? The trails get torn to crap on a regular basis - widened, rocks dislodged from the trail surface and left littering the trail, etc. I see jokers on 2-strokes back there! Not an appropriate (in my opinion) place for such activities. Maybe you do ride in 2nd on your 4-stroke, but you are the minority from my observations.

    The fact that you admit to riding there for the last decade, illegally, is concerning. Someone (not me, not my style) is likely to report your name to the USFS, that is how passionate some of my friends are about keeping motos off the trails up there. Is that selfish? Arguably so. But the same could be said for the motos. It doesn't help your cause to not only ignore the rules, but to openly admit to doing so repeatedly. That attitude makes it real easy for land managers to impose further restrictions.

    Just some thoughts, nothing personal.

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    Uh, what?

    Why would you assume I'm on a 4-stroke? For what it's worth, I've always ridden 2 strokes. With good silencers, tuned for trail riding. Quieter than most of the modern 4 stroke bikes. And if you're on singletrack, at least most of the singletrack at West Mag, you're not going to be out of 2nd gear, because 20 mph is about the speed limit unless you're Mike Lafferty.

    I hate to say it, but the "social" trails have never been signed - until recently, I had no idea motos weren't allowed on them. The trails from Peak to Peak over to the end of West Mag road are signed, and I've never seen a moto on them. At least of couple of the trails in the area were originally *built* by motos as well. And I'm sure the forest service would love to hear from your friends about people riding motorcycles there, then come arrest me. Right. Very subtle, I guess it IS your style to threaten things by proxy?

    The trails are NOT trashed at West Mag. I have been on them for years and years, and I can tell you right now that they're pretty much in the same shape they always were. A lot of trails practically disappear every winter after the leaves fall and don't really re-emerge until they've had some traffic again in the spring. Perhaps if you feel that a trail like Betasso or Heil is about as technical and washed out as you can stand, you'd have a leg to stand on here. But "rocks dislodged on the trail surface"!?? This is _mountain biking_, remember? The West Mag trails sit on a BIG PILE OF DECOMPOSING GRANITE. Rocks, including loose ones, are guaranteed.

    I guess it's not the moto thing itself that bugs me. It's that the area really didn't have any user conflicts (that I know of) to begin with, and then the forest service decided that if there wasn't a problem, they'd better come up with a travel management plan. Nobody wants to see West Mag turn into Lefthand (vice-versa would be cool, though!) - but it wasn't on its way to that anyway. Second, what motorcycles do (loud, obnoxious, tear up the trail) mountain bikes ALSO do, just to a somewhat smaller extent (ask a hiker). Is there a slippery slope problem here? I'd say so, since Boulder county is pretty hostile to mountain bikes in the first place. If they can ban motos for noise/erosion, they can and will continue to ban mountain bikes. Why not work together? Moto riders certainly aren't looking for access to, say, Hall ranch. Most of them are quite pleased with being able to ride the few trails that are open. They're great natural allies for mountain bikers, in my opinion. The problem is that trail access in Boulder is decided by people who just plain hate recreation - of all kinds. Fighting them is going to take more cooperation than I've seen so far.

    -Walt

  55. #55
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    National Trails Day At Hall Ranch: Volunteer sign up

    The National Trails Day event at Hall Ranch will be limited to 50 volunteers. This is being done to make sure the crew leader to volunteer ratio is manageable.

    Volunteers must register; contact Mary Wiener at 303-441-1647 or e-mail mwiener@co.boulder.co.us to grab your spot.

    This is our trail, let's ensure the outcome makes everyone happy. I know we can get there.
    mtbmike
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  56. #56
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    Easy there Walt, I have no desire to threaten anyone, even by proxy. I just wanted to make a point that some folks feel very strongly about the issue, strongly enough in fact to do something petty like call the feds. The USFS has only one LEO for the entire district, so they do rely on and follow up on tips from other users. I wish you no harm, I only intended my comments as a warning not to admit to such actions on a public forum such as this - someone is bound to drop the dime at some point.

    I've been riding up there for years too, and I call it like I see it. I'm not afraid of rocks or technical trails - I own and use a downhill bike at the resorts as well as trail riding. The more tech the better for me. But excessive disruption of the trail caused by irresponsible moto-action is clearly evident up there. Given the fact that these trails don't have the best drainage in some parts, the potential for excessive erosion is there with or without motorcycles. Churning up embedded rocks and dirt sure ain't gonna help. I'm not saying it's you doing it, but someone is a little throttle-happy if you ask me.

    I must also point out that motorized use on USFS land is prohibited unless posted, and MTB use is permitted unless posted otherwise. "No signs" is not an excuse in my opinion.

    Chit man, I wish I could afford a trail-moto in addition to my bikes. I love riding 'em, just not where it's illegal. I'm not perfect, I sometimes do stuff that's not legal, we all have our values.

    You posted a thread, and I gave a response. No need to get defensive - I apologize that I came across in a way that invoked such a response. Sometimes words without voice can be misinterpreted.

    So I'll ruin the last paragraph with one last thought. I don't think MTB advocacy should align itself with the Motorized Rec group. We struggle to convince land managers that we are much different, and should not be handed the same restrictions. There is no scientific studies to date that demonstrate mountain bikes cause any more damage to trails than hiking (check IMBAs website for the summary and studies proving this), but the same is not true for OHV use.

    Just some food for thought, I'm not out to change your mind. Peace.

  57. #57
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    PDFs don't work and some other stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike1
    None of those URL links seem to work also boa-mtb.org is not registered in DNS correctly.
    Got Beer?

  58. #58
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    Yo, might want to check your DNS server, maybe it's got some issues. I just checked and I could get pdfs fine and all seemed well with the site.
    The more out of shape you are, the steeper the hill looks.

  59. #59
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    works for me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sin
    None of those URL links seem to work also boa-mtb.org is not registered in DNS correctly.
    I'm not having the same problems you are.... everything seems to be working....

    pls try again...
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  60. #60
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    Hey Hey

    Quote Originally Posted by ibmkidIII
    Yo, might want to check your DNS server, maybe it's got some issues. I just checked and I could get pdfs fine and all seemed well with the site.
    I went to the URL itself and was able to get the PDF seemed the links posted on the forum didnt work for me anyway. As for DNS its the URL itself in other words you have to put www."mywebpage.com instead of "mywebpage.com" Just an FYI no big deal good web page good info
    Got Beer?

  61. #61
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    AFAIK, what you're talking about is a function of your web browser NOT DNS. You must have a fully qualified domain nomain to get a valid IP returned. Most modern browsers will add a "www" to the front of canonical name if the initial lookup fails.

    Might wanna try a different browser if it doesn't work.
    The more out of shape you are, the steeper the hill looks.

  62. #62
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    Smile BOA West Mag Social Ride (pics ref)

    Hi All:

    I joined in my first BOA social camping trip up at West Mag Friday Night and
    Saturday (6/11-12).

    Here's a link to a few pictures I took.

    Sorry -- no pictures of us riding. Our first ride was at night, and the second one
    up to Tennessee Mountain (I think). Both times, I was having too much fun to
    take pictures.

    http://homepage.mac.com/theleeman69s/PhotoAlbum15.html
    The Lee-Man

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  63. #63
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    No good

    How does Mike (mtbmike1) even ride a bike? Or does he? The only thing bigger than his A$$ is his MOUTH. If he actually had a clue about any of the crap he spews I wouldn't be so harsh. It's hard to give much credit to a guy who thinks he knows it all about cycling advocacy when it appears that he can't even turn the pedals.

    Mike is the #1 reason neither I nor any of my friends will EVER join BOA. Not to mention the fact that they really don't do much outside of a few lame trail projects and the Bike Patrol - which is really cool. BOA, as a political organization, is a complete joke in my opinion. It would serve the organization well to dump the chump and learn to play the game they consistently lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeMan
    Hi All:

    I joined in my first BOA social camping trip up at West Mag Friday Night and
    Saturday (6/11-12).

    Here's a link to a few pictures I took.

    Sorry -- no pictures of us riding. Our first ride was at night, and the second one
    up to Tennessee Mountain (I think). Both times, I was having too much fun to
    take pictures.

    http://homepage.mac.com/theleeman69s/PhotoAlbum15.html

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    Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by 36Cycleplane
    How does Mike (mtbmike1) even ride a bike? Or does he? The only thing bigger than his A$$ is his MOUTH. If he actually had a clue about any of the crap he spews I wouldn't be so harsh. It's hard to give much credit to a guy who thinks he knows it all about cycling advocacy when it appears that he can't even turn the pedals.

    Mike is the #1 reason neither I nor any of my friends will EVER join BOA. Not to mention the fact that they really don't do much outside of a few lame trail projects and the Bike Patrol - which is really cool. BOA, as a political organization, is a complete joke in my opinion. It would serve the organization well to dump the chump and learn to play the game they consistently lose.
    Hi 36:

    Man, did you get up on the wrong side of the Universe, or what!? I hope I never
    get on your bad side.

    I don't know what you have against Mike, and I guess that should be between you
    and Mike, except that you posted it here, so I feel compelled to reply in some
    way (maybe a bad idea, but here goes).

    It seems strange to me that you'd attach Mike's size. Seems like hitting below
    the belt to me, but since you brought it up ... he never complains once on the trail,
    and he puts in some epic rides. I've ridden with him several times now, and I don't
    know many other riders as positive and as fun to ride with. But that's (of course)
    just my opinion.

    As far as his work for BOA, he's put in years and years of hours and hours to
    help BOA. Even if you don't agree with him (or even like him), it seems to me you
    have to give him props for that. (And I personally happen to agree with much of
    what he says and does, but again that's just me.) For example, he spent months
    organizing the Hall Ranch work day, and it came out pretty good (for Boulder
    County) if you ask me (and I know -- you didn't ask me).

    Let me end with this: if you want things done in Boulder County, and BOA isn't doing
    them, it seems to me like you have several choices:
    * join BOA and help them do what you want
    * start your own trail group and do what you want
    * do nothing, but respect BOA for what they do (even though you don't agree), or
    * do nothing, and just complain

    I know the last option is appealing (I use it all the time), just so you know it never
    changes anything for the better.
    The Lee-Man

    A witty saying proves nothing. -- Voltaire

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    excellent work 36cycleplane

    mike barrow spends quite a bit of time name calling on this here message board. everyone living above 7000 feet is a NIMBY or extreme environmentalist. speculative remarks on his part. but you can't argue with the size of his stomach nor the volume his mouth is set to. bravo.
    Free the NIMBY

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    Let me guess what your view is ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenvironmentalistnimby
    mike barrow spends quite a bit of time name calling on this here message board. everyone living above 7000 feet is a NIMBY or extreme environmentalist. speculative remarks on his part. but you can't argue with the size of his stomach nor the volume his mouth is set to. bravo.
    Okay, you've made it clear that you feel that folks that don't want stuff in their
    back yards are not evil. But neither are they very sharing, wouldn't you say.

    It's always a trade-off. Nobody wants a dump next to them, for example, but they
    have to be some place. (Substitute your favorite thing to hate for "dump" if you
    wish.)

    Many folks do not like trails or public areas next to them. I have seen this battle fought
    time and again. In Colorado Springs, it took years to finish the connector trail from
    town to the Sante Fe trail because folks didn't want the trail going right behind their
    house. And now that the trail is in, how many have moved away? None the last
    time I heard, and many like the trail being there.

    Maybe this is as simple as our natural instinct to fear anything new or different?
    (Or maybe that's so simplistic it doesn't help.)

    I can understand, in the case of Ward, how many folks would like the land to be
    open to locals only, but is that really fair? How'd you like to only be able to go
    to the parks you live near? Should Boulder County parks be closed to Larimer
    County residents?

    It certainly seems as if Mike has pushed your buttons, but that isn't really the main
    issue in Boulder County. And this thread isn't about Mike, it's about keeping the
    trails open to Bikes in Boulder County.
    The Lee-Man

    A witty saying proves nothing. -- Voltaire

  67. #67
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    Childish and lacking of any content. Wonderful post. Next time try something a little more constructive and without the name calling.

    Thanks for playing.

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