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  1. #1
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    Bike opinions. CO front range

    I'm sure this was been asked and I did a search but couldn't come up with the answers I want.

    So here goes. I've previously owned several HT bikes for riding in Missouri and now Texas. Pending move to the golden, boulder, Lyons, Louisville, area this spring and will riding a lot of front range, epic rides hopefully with some climbing, of course will enjoy some downhill stuff over passes, etc. i wanna be able to ride the bike in lengthy fireroads and adventure races, trail, climb, singletrack, and flowy trails. I doubt i find myself taking the lifts up and riding a buncha serious downhill jumps. Here are the bikes I'm interested in.

    Tallboy LT alloy
    Stumpjumper FSR 29er comp
    Epic 29 comp
    Rocky Mountain element 29r 770 alloy

    Will I be unhappy with the downhill abilities of either the element or the epic? I'm sure all these bikes climb like billy goats. But I don't want to buy an XC and then be unhappy. Like the brain technology in the epics and in the higher end elite version of the stumpy.

    Probably wont get an opportunity to test ride a RM until February. I have a specialized and a SC dealer right by me... I've already test rode a stumpy and a 12 Tallboy. But would like to ride a tallboyLT soon, as well as an epic.

    Help me out CO people! Thank you!


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  2. #2
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    didn't see a 20" full suspension folding bike in your list - Breaking in the New Guy (Kenosha to Breck)


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    First off, you don't have to jump from a hardtail to a FS 29er but, OK, that's what you're thinking of. Also consider the Kona Satori.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy View Post
    First off, you don't have to jump from a hardtail to a FS 29er but, OK, that's what you're thinking of. Also consider the Kona Satori.
    The HT beat me up pretty good on rocky technical terrain we had in Missouri. But maybe the epic would be a nice in between...


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    You might add the RIP 9 and Pivot 429 to your list.

  6. #6
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    You can set the epic up fairly plush for what it is. It just depends on what you want. The epic is a race bike, it handles quick and requires attention. I personally like that in a bike but if you want something with a lot of suspension and slower handing and suspension that is for just running over stuff get something that has that trait. One thing is for sure, you won't find too many bikes that climb better than the epic.

  7. #7
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    you can learn and get fit enough to climb on most anything
    get a bike that is biased towards going downhill, you wont regret it
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  8. #8
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    Ditto what WKD-RDR said. You'll have more fun descending with confidence.
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    I disagree with my esteemed colleagues...

    I would go with a more climbing-biased bike. You will be spending the majority of your time climbing, unless you go lift-served or shuttle.

    And front range trails just aren't that gnar for the most part to make up for hauling a big bike up the hills. One man's opinion.

    Trade-offs.

    Also, are you sure about the 29 thing? Maybe you should try some of the 650b offerings.

  10. #10
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    salsa spearfish or horsethief would be awesome!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    I disagree with my esteemed colleagues...

    I would go with a more climbing-biased bike. You will be spending the majority of your time climbing, unless you go lift-served or shuttle.

    And front range trails just aren't that gnar for the most part to make up for hauling a big bike up the hills. One man's opinion.

    Trade-offs.

    Also, are you sure about the 29 thing? Maybe you should try some of the 650b offerings.
    I dont disagree - thats why Im asking you guys opinions. Especially those of you who ride alot of front range. I'll be honest I'm leaning towards the Epic at this point!

    As far as the 650B goes - I'd love to ride a few for comparison, they just aren't sitting around my LBS right now. I can tell you I LOVED the 29er wheel size on my fisher. Way more than my previous mtn bikes.

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    It really does come down to personal preferences. I've been riding the whole gamut of front range trails for a long time, and my preferences run strongly toward light bikes and quick handling. I ride a 26" hardtail racing bike, I don't race, and I love it. There are some chernky sections where I would be better off on a different bike, but not enough to make me change.

    One thing you might consider, if you are in-between sizes, is getting a climbing bike with a slightly longer frame than you might normally ride, then put a short stem on it. This changes the handling in interesting ways and will make the bike more easy to handle on descents.

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    Moots Mooto X YBB

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    It's good to get opinions from everyone but it really boils down to your riding style. Some of the bikes i see recommended here i would never even bother throwing a leg over but that is just me. Why not wait until you get here and buy a bike? Golden Bikes will let you demo a bunch of bikes and put the rental fee towards the bike so in essence it's free. What seems great where you are at now might not be the ticket once you move here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrock450 View Post
    It's good to get opinions from everyone but it really boils down to your riding style. Some of the bikes i see recommended here i would never even bother throwing a leg over but that is just me. Why not wait until you get here and buy a bike? Golden Bikes will let you demo a bunch of bikes and put the rental fee towards the bike so in essence it's free. What seems great where you are at now might not be the ticket once you move here.
    That's funny as I had almost the exact same response in another thread...unless OP has had a change of mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Sloth View Post
    Hold onto your money for now, yes this can be extremely hard, and wait until you get here. Use your current bike to get acclimated and then go start demo'ing bikes. There are a lot of shops to do this at...usually something like pay $150 for the program with X amount of demos. If you end up buying at that shop, the $150 goes towards the purchase. The demos will be all the way up to high end bikes and really worth it for the money.

    You may also want to rethink the decision to own a roadie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kstateskier View Post
    Probably not going to wait till we move to buy my new steed, I need a new bike soon. My fisher go shipped off before I moved to SA, then I sold the Tarmac a few months ago. Been trail running ever since, dying to get back on a bike. I think a lot of the new models will start hitting the shops here this month, going to go test ride an epic comp, stumpy FSR, and a Tallboy here in town. Maybe get up to Austin and test ride a RM if they've got any in stock. You can bike all thru the winter here in south Texas and I plan on doing so before we get to Colorado in the spring. If I can get my job situation ironed out any faster I might push our move up to January and catch the ski season. I ski too so ill have plenty to do!

    Hopefully I can hook up and ride some with you guys when we get out there. Again I appreciate the info.


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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrock450 View Post
    It's good to get opinions from everyone but it really boils down to your riding style. Some of the bikes i see recommended here i would never even bother throwing a leg over but that is just me. Why not wait until you get here and buy a bike? Golden Bikes will let you demo a bunch of bikes and put the rental fee towards the bike so in essence it's free. What seems great where you are at now might not be the ticket once you move here.
    Not bad advice. If I wait that long my budget will be well into the $5-6k range. Opens up a lot of kick ass bikes at that point. Really looking fwd to getting to CO.


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    I like riding both uphill and downhill - I don't care about riding flat, but in Colorado you don't have to. Using skiing analogy if you can have only one pair of skis what would you choose - some carving hardpack skis or fat powder skis. Sure, powder days are not too many even in Colorado (there were basically none last season), but those are the days when fat skis make you giggle uncontrollably and are the days you remember. The same with mountain biking - to me riding down is the highlight of any MTB outing and I would prefer proper bike for that even if it means less efficient climbing. So in my opinion the least "downhillish" bike for Colorado would be trail bike a-la Specialized Stumpjumper FSR, Yeti 575, Santa Cruz Blur LT etc. You are not in Kansas any more

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kstateskier View Post
    Not bad advice. If I wait that long my budget will be well into the $5-6k range. Opens up a lot of kick ass bikes at that point. Really looking fwd to getting to CO.
    And, at $5-6k you could have two great bikes! n+1 and all...

    Personally, of my pile o' bikes, I think that my Salsa Spearfish is the most well-rounded bike for what I do on the Front Range. That being said, you'll have to figure things out yourself, and I'd suggest waiting 'til you get here to do that...
    baker

  19. #19
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    When its all said and done, hard tail 29 is the fastest and most versatile bike where ever you ride!
    Flame, Flame, BS, **** talk, run your mouth away!!! Yeah!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    And front range trails just aren't that gnar for the most part to make up for hauling a big bike up the hills. One man's opinion.
    A descending biased bike doesn't have to be a big bike - see Stumpy EVO, Blur TRC, TBLT, 5 Spot...
    Last edited by dbabuser; 10-14-2012 at 09:32 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Turner Spot. Yes, 26" it's true.
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  22. #22
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    OP: couple of thoughts...
    First, how's your DH skills? I ask because it sounds like the areas you've ridden are a lot mellower than the rock-strewn chundery mess the CO/Front Range. Yeah, there are smoother trails, but if you land in Golden, the (arguably funner) trails you can ride to are rocky! Also, Front Range (and I'd say most of CO) riding is big ups followed by big downs...well, relative to say TX...? So, you can get a climb-biased bike with stiff suspension and race bike steering which will make the ups more pleasant, but scare the b'Jesus out of you on the downs! Or you can get a downhill-biased bike that, if you tweak the gearing, can crawl up a wall. You won't win any Strava KOMs, but who cares! The downs are where its at for CO/FR rides...and I'd say the most fun is in the techy downs.
    Second thought, how big are you? If you pick up a really nice light race bike and you don't race, how long do you expect your parts to last in the intended terrain...here? Riding here chews through parts. If you're heavy and you buy silly-light race bike/parts, you'll either be spending a lot of money to get light and durable parts, or spending a lot of money in replacements/repairs. Dunno about you, but me, I hate to repair/replace spendy bits and suffering down time due to mech issues. I build my bikes for low maintenance and slightly on the burlier side to avoid this.

    /ravings.

    BTW, what a cool problem to have!

    Edit: forget the long cockpit w/ stubby stems. Try a more upright seated position w/ stubby stem...so you can be all over the bike. Yeah, I'm a Santa Cruz fanboy, if it gives you a clue on the bike I'd recommend. I ride the plastic canary version of the bike you named, and also its little brother (Blur LTc, and all reports say you can 650b this bike very nicely)
    Last edited by Pau11y; 10-15-2012 at 08:31 AM.
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  23. #23
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    I'm currently loving my Tallboy LT Carbon but that's probably slightly north of your budget but if you are cosidering the aluminum version then that is probably a good bike as well. As Paul1e stated we have some serious terrain here. The TBLT may certainly not be a climber's dream machine but it certain does climb. What is truly awesome is the way the bike descends. I really think there isn't anything that this bike can't handle.

    With that said, if I was to buy again, I would be seriously considering the Intense Tracer 275 with a set of carbon hoops. Again probably not a serious climber but certainly playful on the technical descents.

    At the end of the day you can ride anythng with anything around here. On Redstone Cyclery's Big Fall Ride I was getting smoked by hardtail singlespeeds on the climbs, but then I would get my revenge on the downhills Choose you passion, then your weapon of choice.
    Last edited by TheNormsk; 10-15-2012 at 08:38 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    you can learn and get fit enough to climb on most anything
    get a bike that is biased towards going downhill, you wont regret it

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    Blur LT allllllll day long.

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    Ibis Mojo HD. Best bike ive ever ridden...

  27. #27
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    Oh, as others have stated, CO Front Range doesn't really have flat trails. It's either up or down. I managed to grab a quick ride yesterday and it was 2100 of climbing and descending over a piddly 12 miles.

    I echo the sentiments of others. Keep your current bike and start riding it once you get here. I rode my mid 90s XC FS (with 2.5 inches of suspension) for a year and a half before I changed my bike. Sure I'm quicker now, but I still had huge fun on my old bike.

    Figure out what you really like in the FR trails before buying. That could save a very expensive mistake.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Bike opinions. CO front range-walker-ranch.jpg  


  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    OP: couple of thoughts...
    First, how's your DH skills? I ask because it sounds like the areas you've ridden are a lot mellower than the rock-strewn chundery mess the CO/Front Range. Yeah, there are smoother trails, but if you land in Golden, the (arguably funner) trails you can ride to are rocky! Also, Front Range (and I'd say most of CO) riding is big ups followed by big downs...well, relative to say TX...? So, you can get a climb-biased bike with stiff suspension and race bike steering which will make the ups more pleasant, but scare the b'Jesus out of you on the downs! Or you can get a downhill-biased bike that, if you tweak the gearing, can crawl up a wall. You won't win any Strava KOMs, but who cares! The downs are where its at for CO/FR rides...and I'd say the most fun is in the techy downs.
    Second thought, how big are you? If you pick up a really nice light race bike and you don't race, how long do you expect your parts to last in the intended terrain...here? Riding here chews through parts. If you're heavy and you buy silly-light race bike/parts, you'll either be spending a lot of money to get light and durable parts, or spending a lot of money in replacements/repairs. Dunno about you, but me, I hate to repair/replace spendy bits and suffering down time due to mech issues. I build my bikes for low maintenance and slightly on the burlier side to avoid this.

    /ravings.

    BTW, what a cool problem to have!

    Edit: forget the long cockpit w/ stubby stems. Try a more upright seated position w/ stubby stem...so you can be all over the bike. Yeah, I'm a Santa Cruz fanboy, if it gives you a clue on the bike I'd recommend. I ride the plastic canary version of the bike you named, and also its little brother (Blur LTc, and all reports say you can 650b this bike very nicely)

    I would suspect my DH skills are lacking since I've grown up in Kansas and only in the past few years seriously mountain biked only rolling hills/albeit rocky and technical in the ozarks and now Texas. Texas is flat and pretty blah. I'm looking forward to the climbing and descending in colorado! Not to mention the scenery! Not sure I mentioned this but I'm a road convert, spent the last few years chasing a group of racers around the ozark mountains and sometimes getting dropped, sometimes hangin in.

    To answer your other questions I'm 33, 160lbs dripping wet so I don't anticipate being to awfully hard on equipment. Long time athlete, runner, cyclist, skier and cycling fits my fitness goals... Like I said I don't have to have xo or complete xtr but I want a bike and components that aren't going to be a pita and are going to perform well. I don't need the lightest bike in the world or the most travel, I just want something that I can spend 4,5,6 hours on through a variety of the Colorado terrain! I wanna go up, I wanna go down, I wanna cross that gigantic openness and enjoy the scenery, I wanna rip that single track that I climbed a fire road or trail for 2 hours to get to the top of!

    Very interested in the SC TBLT... And the fsrs that specialized has to offer. Just wish there was a shop around me that had one I could ride.

    Again I appreciate your guys comments And opinions.


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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerryn View Post
    Oh, as others have stated, CO Front Range doesn't really have flat trails. It's either up or down. I managed to grab a quick ride yesterday and it was 2100 of climbing and descending over a piddly 12 miles.

    I echo the sentiments of others. Keep your current bike and start riding it once you get here. I rode my mid 90s XC FS (with 2.5 inches of suspension) for a year and a half before I changed my bike. Sure I'm quicker now, but I still had huge fun on my old bike.

    Figure out what you really like in the FR trails before buying. That could save a very expensive mistake.
    This would be a good plan if I had at current bike. Sold my fisher ht to pay for my Tarmac. Sold my Tarmac not long after I got to Texas because I hated the roads and it was an awful lot of $$$ to just sit in my garage collecting dust.


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  30. #30
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    "I wish my bike had less suspension"

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kstateskier View Post
    This would be a good plan if I had at current bike. Sold my fisher ht to pay for my Tarmac. Sold my Tarmac not long after I got to Texas because I hated the roads and it was an awful lot of $$$ to just sit in my garage collecting dust.


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    If you don't do your own work on your bike and depend on LBS, wait til you get here to buy to develop a rapport w/ a shop. I'm not sure about your bargaining power if you show up w/ greenbacks, but it does wonders on places like Criagslist. OH, and there's there's the up-coming VeloSwap if you can make it. If you do do your own work, I still think you wait till you know more about the trails around the Front Range before pulling the trigger. Just trail-run a place like Chimney Gulch/Apex (your home trail if you live in Golden) to get an idea.
    It sounds like you also ride road...? You can pick up a used AM class bike and a roadie w/ your $5-6k budget...
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    If you don't do your own work on your bike and depend on LBS, wait til you get here to buy to develop a rapport w/ a shop. I'm not sure about your bargaining power if you show up w/ greenbacks, but it does wonders on places like Criagslist. OH, and there's there's the up-coming VeloSwap if you can make it. If you do do your own work, I still think you wait till you know more about the trails around the Front Range before pulling the trigger. Just trail-run a place like Chimney Gulch/Apex (your home trail if you live in Golden) to get an idea.
    It sounds like you also ride road...? You can pick up a used AM class bike and a roadie w/ your $5-6k budget...
    You guys all offer good suggestions. I think to get me thru winter here in Texas I'm going to nab a slightly used hard tail something off CL (lots of good quality stuff for sale in austin and san antonio) and then bring that with me to CO, and then figure out what i want to do. I DO like supporting LBS...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kstateskier View Post
    You guys all offer good suggestions. I think to get me thru winter here in Texas I'm going to nab a slightly used hard tail something off CL (lots of good quality stuff for sale in austin and san antonio) and then bring that with me to CO, and then figure out what i want to do. I DO like supporting LBS...
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    Sounds like a good choice.

    If you end up near Louisville then you can still run the hard-tail for the South Boulder trails (Marshall Mesa etc or the myriad of multi-use trails) and then pick up a hardcore trail/AM class bike for the "big terrain" trails.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kstateskier View Post
    Very interested in the SC TBLT... And the fsrs that specialized has to offer. Just wish there was a shop around me that had one I could ride.
    Not trying to sell you on a Tallboy of any flavor, but you may want to check this thread:
    Tallboy LT and LTc Owners Thread

    Edit: I'd start from the last page and go backwards...thread is a bit bloated.
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    That sounds like a great plan. This way, even when you get here, you will benefit from starting with a hardtail (suggest 29er). You'll become a better rider faster and you'll give yourself a chance to figure out what bike you really want for our front range terrain.

    I will add that I am riding the Epic 29er and absolutely love it. I've ridden the front range on many different bikes over the years and was back to riding a 26" hardtail and loving it before I test rode the Epic two years ago. In my opinion, the Epic is a really good all-around bike for Colorado riding and I love the firm platform the brain gives.

    But I also know there are other many other good bikes out there. You're on the right track starting with the hardtail and then figuring out what might best suit you.

    Ride ON!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by COMtnBoy View Post
    That sounds like a great plan. This way, even when you get here, you will benefit from starting with a hardtail (suggest 29er). You'll become a better rider faster and you'll give yourself a chance to figure out what bike you really want for our front range terrain.
    AND, you can put a rigid fork on the 29er HT and go buzz around the CX tracks when the trails have snow. There's one in Golden that I really want to go buzz around on w/ my TB
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kstateskier View Post
    Not bad advice. If I wait that long my budget will be well into the $5-6k range. Opens up a lot of kick ass bikes at that point. Really looking fwd to getting to CO.


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    I fully support this opinion. Golden Bike Shop is fantastic, and I feel like it is super important to demo bikes on the specific conditions you'll be riding them. Not only do you learn your bike preferences better this way, but you also get to have useful conversations with the locals about tire choices and suspension setups, which are critical to the equation. Their service and demo program was instrumental in leading my husband and I to our recent Niner purchase (Jet 9 RDO). They are blowing out their demo fleet right now, in fact - so it's a perfect opportunity to snap up something cool.

    IMO unless you're talking lift served, most trails worth riding in Colorado involve a long fairly steep climb on loose sandy jeep road / washout to gain access to the "payoff". Descents can be tricky if you're not used to dealing with sand, pea gravel and fist-sized loose rocks on every available surface. When I first moved out here, I felt like everything I rode was covered in marbles and ball bearings. Once my skills improved and I gave up on my 26" hardtails, it went much better.

    I think a lightweight, fully suspended 29er is your most versatile choice for the trails out here assuming you want one do-it-all bike. Which bike (or bikes) you settle on will ultimately depend on your preference, your pocketbook and your demo options. I think all of the bikes you listed are potentially awesome depending on the setup, tires, and your personal preference.

    The reason I vote 29er is that you don't find the super tight wooded singletrack that you have on the East Coast, and you'll like how the big wheels roll in the chunk, waterbars, jeep roads and open meadows / thinned pine forests that do typify our trails. Unless you're really into pedalling 6" of travel uphill or want to buy lift tickets, you don't really need it on 90% of the local/regional open space trails, barring a few very specific instances.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    "I wish my bike had less suspension"

    said no one, ever
    I don't know... I see a lot of which HT or what fork to make my bike a rigid threads!

  39. #39
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    This thread really needs Funrover to put some perspective on it.

    Lunch Loops!

    Run what you got and don't forget to smile, change it up if you feel like it
    Kona Wo for Fat Biking, Ibis HD3 for Trail Shredding, Merckx Road bike for collecting dust in garage

  40. #40
    Old, Slow and now FAT! :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonefrontranger View Post
    but you also get to have useful conversations with the locals about tire choices and suspension setups, which are critical to the equation.
    Where's the fun in that? We could always do with one more "What tire for the Front Range?" thread..

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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    "I wish my bike had less suspension"

    said no one, ever
    Henrik Djernis, right after he started racing for Pro-Flex.

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    I would rather ride a '93 rigid fork bike than a slack-angle speed descender on any Front Range loop or out-and-back that I can think of. Diff'rent strokes, Willis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    I would rather ride a '93 rigid fork bike than a slack-angle speed descender on any Front Range loop or out-and-back that I can think of. Diff'rent strokes, Willis.

    I pedal my Sunday up hills sometimes, just for the lulz. I dont think riding a rigid on some chunk would bring me as many lulz, however.

    I spose that's why the thread is titled "bike opinions"

    I will echo what babuser stated, some bikes can climb pretty darn good (close to or as good as a racer boi bike), and be fantastically superior on the descents.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    A descending biased bike doesn't have to be a big bike - see Stumpy EVO, Blur TRC, TBLT, 5 Spot...
    I think this is along the lines of what the OP is looking for, based on his postings...
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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    MMMMMMMmmmmm Camber Carbon Evo 29er! Just had a chat with this beauty at another LBS!

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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    I will echo what babuser stated, some bikes can climb pretty darn good (close to or as good as a racer boi bike), and be fantastically superior on the descents. .
    This kind of description makes me think of my recently acquired Heckler, which has me deviating from my endurance racer boi background... That bike brings the big smiles.

    baker

  46. #46
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    The best all arounder bike for doing a little of everything, IMO, would have neither a climbing bias nor would it have a descending bias. Skills will get you a long way. Ride your bike for a bit after you get here and go from there. The go to bike around here seems to be in the 5-6" travel range for a 26er and a little less for a fs 29er. Ride a few bikes in CO terrain and make up your mind after you see what floats your boat. Me? I've got a 150mm 26er, a 29er geared ht, and a 29er SS. Although I have my preferences on what to ride where, none of them seem to really kill my mojo anywhere. I never think, "that ride sucked, I wish I was on my xxx."
    Redstone Cyclery
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    Lyons, CO

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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    I pedal my Sunday up hills sometimes, just for the lulz. I dont think riding a rigid on some chunk would bring me as many lulz, however....
    It might though. Riding rigid forks on chernky trails is very fun -- up to a point. Some moves are actually easier with a rigid fork.

    There isn't an inch of Front Range chunk that wasn't under this beauty's tires at least a few times.

    That bike is fun to ride on technical stuff, and climbs much easier even than my super light race bike (which is at least 3 pound lighter even with sus. fork). It's about the hand position.

    But NO it does not want to go down rough trails fast.

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    Don't ignore the used market, there are deals to be had:
    Last edited by xcguy; 12-02-2012 at 10:01 AM.
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy View Post
    Don't ignore the used market, there are deals to be had:
    Your '88 walmart special? Lemme guess, you're trying to get $550 for it?
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
    ╭∩╮( º.º )╭∩╮

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Your '88 walmart special? Lemme guess, you're trying to get $550 for it?
    For you, Pau11y, tree fiddy.
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

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