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  1. #1
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    BCPOS Betasson/Benjamin plan

    For those who want to read a LONG (the exec summary is at the beginning) statement about what BCPOS plans to do with the Benjamin property: click here (scroll down to "planning and public involvement")

    For those who don't want to wade through it:

    "A new trail system extending off of the existing Canyon Loop Trail will allow visitors to explore new territory and will provide diverse experiences including a potential future connection to Fourmile Canyon for mountain bikers and others. The new trail system will double the available trail mileage by adding 4.6 miles of additional trails, thus creating a total of 9.3 miles of multiple use trails throughout Betasso Preserve, one of the highest densities of trails on Boulder County open space properties."

    "In addition, if an opportunity arises, BCPOS will investigate the feasibility of a potential new trail in the southeast corner of Betasso Preserve that would provide a new link between Boulder Canyon and the Canyon Loop Trail."

    The meeting to provide comments and meet up with BCPOS (open to the public) is March 24, 2009, from 4:30 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. The meeting will be held in the Houston Room at the Boulder County Clerk & Recorder's office (1750 33rd Street, Boulder).
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  2. #2
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    Not to be a downer, but I wished they'd leave the Benjamin area just how it is.

  3. #3
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    Reasoning

    BCPOS did an extensive survey of the trails onsite when they purchased the property (which saved it from being developed, most likely) and determined that the existing trails were all either:
    A) Environmentally unsustainable
    and/or
    B) Incompatible with the BCPOS passive recreation mandate

    I can't say I disagree with that assessment.

    Long story short, if you want FR/DH/gravity trails, you'll have to go to the resorts. Boulder parks/openspace is not interested in dealing with the problems that having full-face shuttle riders on multi-use trails would cause. To be honest, I do not blame them. Trails in Boulder are simply too crowded for that kind of use, IMO.

    I will also miss the Ark trails, but at least we will get some new trails to ride.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Not to be a downer, but I wished they'd leave the Benjamin area just how it is.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt
    BCPOS did an extensive survey of the trails onsite when they purchased the property (which saved it from being developed, most likely) and determined that the existing trails were all either:
    A) Environmentally unsustainable
    and/or
    B) Incompatible with the BCPOS passive recreation mandate
    Let's be honest.. it's all about "B". Those trails have been there for decades without being "sustainable". The truth is that BCPOS can't stomach the thought of any sanctioned trial with over a 10% grade and a few pebbles on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt
    I will also miss the Ark trails, but at least we will get some new trails to ride.
    You mean some more semi-paved sidewalk wide enough for an El Camino like Betasso loop? Oh, and the addition of mandated trail direction and restricted bike days. yipee!

    I understand the reality and have learned that it's not even worth having the argument. Eventually the current generation of old farts running the establishment will pass on and be replaced by newer generations of riders, the majority of whom prefer a slightly more advanced style of riding. In the mean time, I'll be sad to see the area go, but at least there will be another set of trails for all the rigid SS 29'ers, 36'ers, horseys and off leash dogs.

    PS - FWIW, many often climbed those trails to go down them. Technical and challenging riding does not always equal shuttling.

  5. #5
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    I only had the chance to ride those trails once (fully from the top) on a hardtail, needless to say they scared me enough that I only rode them that one time. Some of those in there would actually be sustainable yet challenging, and probably offer some major drops/hucks on alternate lines, but I know there is no way that would ever happen.

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    Good points.

    I can't disagree with you, but I doubt very much that we'll *ever* see the kind of trail you want, on public land, in Boulder. The new generation of riders you speak of exists, but they are still a tiny fraction of the total mountain bike population, and they'll probably stay that way. Like it or not, there are at least an order of magnitude more rigid 29er riders and families that want to use the trails than freeriders.

    I think there's a good chance we'll end up with something like Picture Rock (ie, narrow, rocky, fun for everyone) and if so, that will be a huge win for the Boulder mountain bike community.

    Also, I have to call BS on climbing up the Ark trails. I'm an XC pro and quite competent tech rider and there's no way I could have climbed any significant amount of any of them. Climb the road, sure. I did it about a thousand times. But not the trails themselves - which brings me to the other point: no legal access points (currently) at the top of the mountain. BCPOS cannot promote trespassing by building trails that dead end into private property. They have promised to explore future connections to Switzerland trail to the west, though, so some bits of existing trail may someday be rebuilt and opened.

    -Walt


    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Let's be honest.. it's all about "B". Those trails have been there for decades without being "sustainable". The truth is that BCPOS can't stomach the thought of any sanctioned trial with over a 10% grade and a few pebbles on it.

    You mean some more semi-paved sidewalk wide enough for an El Camino like Betasso loop? Oh, and the addition of mandated trail direction and restricted bike days. yipee!

    I understand the reality and have learned that it's not even worth having the argument. Eventually the current generation of old farts running the establishment will pass on and be replaced by newer generations of riders, the majority of whom prefer a slightly more advanced style of riding. In the mean time, I'll be sad to see the area go, but at least there will be another set of trails for all the rigid SS 29'ers, 36'ers, horseys and off leash dogs.

    PS - FWIW, many often climbed those trails to go down them. Technical and challenging riding does not always equal shuttling.
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  7. #7
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    I respectfully disagree with a few of your points.. but it's all moot now considering everything has been closed off since last summer.

    Whatever happens, it's still better than a new housing track.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    ...but at least there will be another set of trails for all the rigid SS 29'ers, 36'ers, horseys and off leash dogs.
    Tsk, tsk. So now SS, rigid 29'ers are being lumped in with horseys and off leash dogs

    Whatever.

    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    Tsk, tsk. So now SS, rigid 29'ers are being lumped in with horseys and off leash dogs

    Whatever.

    Ed
    To the extent that any trail designed to be rideable on a rigid 29ers is going to be easily feasible for dogs and horseys - yes. The former trails.. not so much.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    To the extent that any trail designed to be rideable on a rigid 29ers is going to be easily feasible for dogs and horseys - yes. The former trails.. not so much.



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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs


    ..pic of lame roller..
    Addicted a bit to those rolleyes? Nice baby steep there.

    For clarity, my point wasn't to argue the traction limits for dogs.. but I think you know that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Addicted a bit to those rolleyes? Nice baby steep there.

    For clarity, my point wasn't to argue the traction limits for dogs.. but I think you know that.
    For some reason I have no sympathy for your loss. Enjoy the new trails.

    Ed

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    Hey, I rolled that. It was steep, but not the steepest ever. Definitely doable by dog.
    A trail thatís too difficult wouldnít exist because itíd never be used. But, trails can exist thatíre too difficult for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    To the extent that any trail designed to be rideable on a rigid 29ers is going to be easily feasible for dogs and horseys - yes. The former trails.. not so much.
    I want big-bike trails within riding distance from town, too, but your comment smacks of superiority and shortsightedness, as does "... newer generations of riders ... prefer a slightly more advanced style of riding." If you want to be contentious with a group not like yours, the last thing you should do as a mountain biker is to alienate another subset of mountain biking, especially when the participants so often crossover to your genre, and could be aligned with your cause even if they don't.

    Also, those old trails are rideable on rigid 29ers, so there.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    Hey, I rolled that. It was steep, but not the steepest ever. Definitely doable by dog.
    Dork

    And I didn't because I'm a chickensh*t

    Ed

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    For some reason I have no sympathy for your loss. Enjoy the new trails.
    Somehow I never expected you would. All trails should be the same, technical diversity is bad.

    In fact, I believe BCPOS should also close all climbing routes over a Class 2. We wouldn't want anything challenging where someone could get a booboo.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    All trails should be the same, technical diversity is bad.
    I absolutely disagree with that statement.

    In fact, I do think it is a bummer that the trails will now be "off limits". However my sympathy for YOUR loss is nil.

    However, it's generally well known that interwebs misunderstandings abound and are easy to perpetuate, so perhaps one day a post ride beer may clear things up.

    Ed

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    Dork
    Rigid 29er freak

    ^ The insult of insults. :P

    For the record, I've chased Ed down South St. Vrain (I think) with him on his 29er SS with a rigid carbon fork and me on my late Preston FR and if I recall correctly, he won that chase. Impressive is an understatement. Homeboy knows how to ride a bike and completely revamped any previous associations I have had between bike and rider.

    I can't speak for thump, but I think I can understand his reaction. Many of us technical trail junkies are watching out precious gems get sanitized or disappear in the interests of appealing to a crowd with a much different agenda. Yes, our group is small, but I'm confident it is growing... unfortunately the same cannot be said for trails of technical nature, so its natural we get protective of what's left.
    A trail thatís too difficult wouldnít exist because itíd never be used. But, trails can exist thatíre too difficult for you.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickle
    I can't speak for thump, but I think I can understand his reaction. Many of us technical trail junkies are watching out precious gems get sanitized or disappear in the interests of appealing to a crowd with a much different agenda. Yes, our group is small, but I'm confident it is growing... unfortunately the same cannot be said for trails of technical nature, so its natural we get protective of what's left.
    I think I just got off on the wrong foot with thump on this thread and I apologize for that and the distraction.

    I also understand the reaction to such a loss. It's definitely a bummer.

    Ed

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    I absolutely disagree with that statement.

    In fact, I do think it is a bummer that the trails will now be "off limits". However my sympathy for YOUR loss is nil.

    However, it's generally well known that interwebs misunderstandings abound and are easy to perpetuate, so perhaps one day a post ride beer may clear things up.

    Ed
    Ed.. I don't have a personal "loss" here, just a disagreement the BCPOS's Borg approach to all trail building. I apologize for cracking on the 29ers (well kinda). It was a cheap shot and from what I hear you'd probably whip me down a hill even on my DH bike. I was simply trying to infer that we already have quite a bit of non-technical trail around Boulder, it's sad to see some of the few remaining technical spots succumb to the same. I'll be happy to buy you a beer and crack on the 29ers in person if we get the chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by perioeci
    I want big-bike trails within riding distance from town, too, but your comment smacks of superiority and shortsightedness, as does "... newer generations of riders ... prefer a slightly more advanced style of riding." If you want to be contentious with a group not like yours, the last thing you should do as a mountain biker is to alienate another subset of mountain biking, especially when the participants so often crossover to your genre, and could be aligned with your cause even if they don't.

    Also, those old trails are rideable on rigid 29ers, so there.
    Errr... get defensive often? No, "my" riding style is not superior. In fact, with West Mag out my back door I typically log more XC miles that DH most weeks. As I mentioned above, my issue is that BCPOS only caters to one style of riding these days. Leaving .01% of the technical trails untouched wouldn't be a bad thing.

    Anyway, like I said. It's all better than a housing track.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Ed.. I don't have a personal "loss" here, just a disagreement the BCPOS's Borg approach to all trail building. I apologize for cracking on the 29ers (well kinda). It was a cheap shot and from what I hear you'd probably whip me down a hill even on my DH bike. I was simply trying to infer that we already have quite a bit of non-technical trail around Boulder, it's sad to see some of the few remaining technical spots succumb to the same. I'll be happy to buy you a beer and crack on the 29ers in person if we get the chance..
    I hear ya. May the stars one day align such that ALL trail users are grinning from ear to ear after knocking themselves out on what is to them, an awesome, endless set of trails.

    I was being stupid about the 29'er comment BUT being lumped in with horses and unleashed dogs!!! Come on

    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Errr... get defensive often? No, "my" riding style is not superior. In fact, with West Mag out my back door I typically log more XC miles that DH most weeks.
    You are free to read into it however you want. My comments stand, as do yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    As I mentioned above, my issue is that BCPOS only caters to one style of riding these days. Leaving .01% of the technical trails untouched wouldn't be a bad thing.
    At least they are now catering to some kind of style of riding. I'm sure we can agree that's a good thing, and could lead to the creation of [legal] trails catering to other styles of riding, trails that I would also welcome, to reiterate. And that was partially my point, inciting segregation won't help that.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    I hear ya. May the stars one day align such that ALL trail users are grinning from ear to ear after knocking themselves out on what is to them, an awesome, endless set of trails.
    Quote Originally Posted by perioeci
    At least they are now catering to some kind of style of riding.
    Amen.

    [SIZE="1"](note to self - do not crack on 29ers in the FR forum. tough crowd)[/SIZE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    [SIZE=1](note to self - do not crack on 29ers in the FR forum. tough crowd)[/SIZE]
    I'm on the record as stating that I don't possess a sense of humor.

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    No DH riding in BoCo! Who would have thunk it!

    thumper rule: If you can't say anything nice (about other riders) then don't say anything at all.

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