Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: packfill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    233

    Battle of the Bear cluster F*ck

    When you enjoy standing around for hours like you've got nothing better to do, except no substitute. I like to support local races as much as the next guy, but i think i'm going to pass next year.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Reporterkyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    472
    I'll admit I didn't hang around for the results, and I even had a spot on the podium. I wouldn't call it a cluster f*4k, though, just kind of par for the course when it comes ot MTB races. Overall, I thought the race was pretty well run -- WAY, WAY, WAY better than it has been run in the past. My only constructive criticism deals with the way they broke up categories. I started with a pack of 80 guys that included something like 3-4 combined age categories. I got a good start and made it to the singletrack in good position, but I know folks behind me had to deal with a lot of traffic because there really wasn't much room to sort things out before the singletrack started. They should have A) broke the starting blocks up into manageable bites or B) done something to give the field more time (A fireroad hill or something) before hitting the singletrack.

  3. #3
    Which way? Uphill.
    Reputation: nepbug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    825
    I felt suckered a bit, they said awards at 3, I went and ate lunch and came back at 2:50 to see they had already done the sport categories, too bad, I had a podium spot too. I stuck around a little bit, won a six-pack of Dale's Pale Ale in the raffle and went back home.

    The results took forever to come out, and I thought chip timing was supposed to streamline it.

    Other than the results, I thought it was pretty well organized, but the course was pretty crowded at times with so many races running at the same time.
    Blog

    Just keep spinning. Just keep running. Just keep paddling.
    Just keep moving forward.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5

    Total Mess

    Organizing and promoting a race is no fun at all and I'm certainly glad there are people out there doing it. It's a thankless job and I really appreciate the time that these people take to organize cycling events. On the same note, we are all aware that mountain bike racing is a sport that has lost the little glory that it had in the mid 90's for a lot of different reasons that we don't need to go into at the moment. I think it's hard enough to get people motivated to ride and race bikes as it is these days and the last thing we want to do is scare the newbies away at a race venue - disorganization, inefficiency, waiting around all day for results and rough experiences with gobs of other people on the race course is something that would make me think twice about ever racing again. The good news is, that it's fixable.

    My feedback on this race below:

    • Registration - they had to postpone both the beginner and Front Range 50 starts because they couldn't organize preregistration and day of registration lines. Instead, there was one very long line that took forever and then you had to jump into another line for a timing chip. It took some of the racers 45 minutes to register!

    • Nobody seemed to know where the starts were for each race because it wasn't marked. Front Range 50 racers started at a different area and it was confusing. Mark the starts please!

    • They started the Sport Men in front of the Expert Women. That means that half of our field had to pass over 40-50 sport guys on single track (this doesn't include the Front Range 50ers). Since the Expert Women's field is so small and most are faster than the bottom half of the Sport Men field, it makes more sense to put us in front of them so their fastest guys only have to pass 15 or so women on the course. Much less of a mess.

    • Awards - the awards were really unorganized. Beginner racers had to wait 5 hours for their results then they went ahead and announced the Front Range 50 race awards at 3:30 before the Pro/Expert and Sport racers who were finished racing by 11:00ish (Front Range 50 racers were still trickling in at at 2:00). I expected faster results and awards with the timing chips...or at least actual split times for each lap. OR, if we have to stand around for 4-5 hours waiting for awards, then at least provide a little more entertainment for hanging out in the hot sun

    • There are never enough bathrooms...no matter where you go it's an issue.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    71
    Racing is a ALL day event, I came from Motocross and you sit on that Tailgate a long time.
    I do hate waiting around at times but thats racing
    How would you like to be an egg?
    You only get laid once.
    You only get eaten once.
    It takes four minutes to get hard.
    Only two minutes to get soft.
    You share your box with 11 other guys
    But worst of all..
    the only chick that ever sat on
    your face was your mother!!!
    So cheer up, Your life ain't that bad!!!!

  6. #6
    <100%
    Reputation: jsj3831's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    600
    I read the title of this thread and thought people we going to vent about the equestrians wandering cluelessly around the race course.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: kylebaxter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    44
    I was at the registraion table at 10:33 to register for an 11:30 start only to be told "sorry, registraition closed 3 minutes ago"

    I was pretty bummed.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    447
    Sounds like the first part of the MSC series last year.

    Mike and his crew are great. But the chip timing was a disaster. They went back to the old school method with a company (CJ's) that knows what they're doing and the problem went away.

    Chip timing ought to be great, but the guys running it can't seem to figure it out for MTB. Not sure why. The concept seems simple enough, but so far they just haven't got it right.

    You guys think your race was bad. Snowmass (yes the state championship) didn't get results for MONTHS. Even now, no one really trust the finalized results.

    Redrocks timing did the MSC, not sure who did the Bear.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Reporterkyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    472
    Quote Originally Posted by RickyD
    Sounds like the first part of the MSC series last year.

    To be fair, MSC had nothing to do with this race. It is not an MSC race (though it used to be several years ago) and has no connection whatsoever to the MSC series. I don't think there's much sense in bringing them into this. The only connection, though slight, is that Warriors does put on Eldora Escape, which is a MSC race. I have to say, Warriors always does a great job at Eldora.

  10. #10
    feel the Force
    Reputation: mtbjedi1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    546
    Yep, it was a Warriors' Cycling production. Poorly run, and mismanaged, just like all of their productions.. It happens when the promoter races his events, and doesn't actually make sure they run smoothly.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,074

    was going to do the 50...

    but talked into a long road ride with the buddies on the P to P highway, Ward, Lyons, etc. I guess I made a good call. I was wondering how many people they were going to jam into that 10 mile loop. Maybe next year.

  12. #12
    Cycling, FTW!!
    Reputation: MarkoInTheBoat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    478
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbjedi1
    Yep, it was a Warriors' Cycling production. Poorly run, and mismanaged, just like all of their productions..
    All of their productions, eh? Maybe I missed something in the past, mind filling me in?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbjedi1
    It happens when the promoter races his events, and doesn't actually make sure they run smoothly.
    Jealous about getting beat? Yeah, I'd be crying too.


    So what if one of the promoters was out racing... Do you think things would have gone more smoothly if the promoter had been around? I would like examples, mtbjedi.

    I have only raced at this crappy venue once, back in the MSC days. Things were a mess then too. I always thought it was just too many people to pack onto a XC course. Kinda makes sense to me when you put a MTB race venue in a metropolitan area.
    "When you pay $340 to do a 24 hour race you'll only have enough money to eat mustard sandwiches the rest of the year." -TD

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    447
    Quote Originally Posted by Reporterkyle
    To be fair, MSC had nothing to do with this race. It is not an MSC race (though it used to be several years ago) and has no connection whatsoever to the MSC series. I don't think there's much sense in bringing them into this. The only connection, though slight, is that Warriors does put on Eldora Escape, which is a MSC race. I have to say, Warriors always does a great job at Eldora.

    Sorry if you misunderstood me. I in no way implied that MSC had anything to do with this race. Nor was I bashing MSC. They were trying to improve the system and unfortunately it didn't work out. They made the best of it and went back to the proven system when it didn't work out.

    My point was that the problems of delays and inaccurate results were predominately due to the CHIP TIMING. When they went back to CJ's timing, the problem went away.

    I personally think the MSC crew is awesome and truly care about what they do. Chip timing is a great idea, what they need is a company that can make it work for our type of racing.

    What I can't figure out is why the chip timing is such a problem. As long as the chips are matched to racers, it ought to work. Chip sets off timer at the start and again at the end. Seems like it should work without hitch. But so far it hasn't.

  14. #14
    Your retarded
    Reputation: Nickle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,085
    I's be pissed off too if I rode for 50 miles thinking it'd be fun.
    A trail that’s too difficult wouldn’t exist because it’d never be used. But, trails can exist that’re too difficult for you.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sbsbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,495
    My main beef with the race was from the participants;
    1. which of you cannot put used gel wrappers back into your pockets, littering in MY state park is uncalled for. Just because you are in an event doesn't allow you to toss trash all over the park. If you are such a suck a$$ rider that you cannot eat a gel, and then put the rapper back into you pocket, quit racing, and go practice some bike handeling skills. I hate seeing used wrappers all over a race course. Grow up people, race promoters are not putting on races to clean up you litter. Shame on all of us for trashing a state park.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    571
    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker
    My main beef with the race was from the participants;
    1. which of you cannot put used gel wrappers back into your pockets, littering in MY state park is uncalled for. Just because you are in an event doesn't allow you to toss trash all over the park. If you are such a suck a$$ rider that you cannot eat a gel, and then put the rapper back into you pocket, quit racing, and go practice some bike handeling skills. I hate seeing used wrappers all over a race course. Grow up people, race promoters are not putting on races to clean up you litter. Shame on all of us for trashing a state park.
    That's something I haven't quite been able to comprehend but there is an incredibly easy (partial) solution... ...gel flasks. They're easier to access, re-usable/no trash unless you drop it and gel is cheaper in bulk. Of course eventually you'll go otb and end up with 5 servings of Hammer Gel running down your shorts leaving your chamois smelling like espresso.

    One might actually argue that we should put the onus for changing this on the manufacturers to change their packaging and/or further encourage the use of flasks... ...???

  17. #17
    Awesomist™
    Reputation: Full Trucker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    2,523
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoInTheBoat
    All of their productions, eh? Maybe I missed something in the past, mind filling me in?

    Jealous about getting beat? Yeah, I'd be crying too.

    So what if one of the promoters was out racing... Do you think things would have gone more smoothly if the promoter had been around? I would like examples, mtbjedi.

    I have only raced at this crappy venue once, back in the MSC days. Things were a mess then too. I always thought it was just too many people to pack onto a XC course. Kinda makes sense to me when you put a MTB race venue in a metropolitan area.
    Warriors Cycling has a history of botched events, and for some reason it always seems like little things could have made it gone much more smoothly. Like the time there was NO WATER on a 100 degree day at SolVista - no water for XCers, DHers, anyone. That's just one example, I am sure there are many. Warriors used to promote several events around the state, several of them in the MSC as well. Eldora is the last hold out there, Crested Butte has taken over the management of that race from Warriors, and Keystone turned over the management of their event to Cycle Cyndicate (now Bigfoot Productions) years ago. Losing venues and being shuffled out of a larger series might be indicative there is a problem with the organization and management of the events, don't you think?

    In regards to the event going more smoothly if the promoter had not been out racing, I say YES. The promoter should run the darn race, and if that person is not around to take care of what needs to take care of, then ultimately the responsibility for poor management of the venue falls on THAT PERSON. Many of the Warriors Cycling events that I have been to seemed to have a lackluster attitude coming from the promoter - it was almost like that person did the bare minimum to put the race in motion, and then let it run it's course, so to speak.

    Yes, Bear Creek State Park has it's fair share of problems with regards to putting on a successful mtb race, but with a solid plan and crew I don't believe they couldn't be overcome. Creating a manageable schedule of race wave start times, streamlining registration, and dialing in timing and scoring would go a LONG way in making that a GREAT race, and a nice venue close to the Denver area.

    There are other promoters and races in this state, and they have had their fair share of problems as well - I'm not implying ANY promoter is perfect. But what the OTHER promoters seem to be doing that Warriors is NOT - is learning from their mistakes and doing their best to provide a QUALITY PRODUCT to their customers.

    At the end of the day, Warriors does not do this simple thing. Thank GAWD they don't have any gravity events these days, and I don't have to attend any of their races.
    The older I get, the faster I was.





    Punch it, Chewie.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: nitro1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    192
    Quote Originally Posted by Full Trucker
    Warriors Cycling has a history of botched events, and for some reason it always seems like little things could have made it gone much more smoothly. Like the time there was NO WATER on a 100 degree day at SolVista - no water for XCers, DHers, anyone. That's just one example, I am sure there are many. Warriors used to promote several events around the state, several of them in the MSC as well. Eldora is the last hold out there, Crested Butte has taken over the management of that race from Warriors, and Keystone turned over the management of their event to Cycle Cyndicate (now Bigfoot Productions) years ago. Losing venues and being shuffled out of a larger series might be indicative there is a problem with the organization and management of the events, don't you think?

    In regards to the event going more smoothly if the promoter had not been out racing, I say YES. The promoter should run the darn race, and if that person is not around to take care of what needs to take care of, then ultimately the responsibility for poor management of the venue falls on THAT PERSON. Many of the Warriors Cycling events that I have been to seemed to have a lackluster attitude coming from the promoter - it was almost like that person did the bare minimum to put the race in motion, and then let it run it's course, so to speak.

    Yes, Bear Creek State Park has it's fair share of problems with regards to putting on a successful mtb race, but with a solid plan and crew I don't believe they couldn't be overcome. Creating a manageable schedule of race wave start times, streamlining registration, and dialing in timing and scoring would go a LONG way in making that a GREAT race, and a nice venue close to the Denver area.

    There are other promoters and races in this state, and they have had their fair share of problems as well - I'm not implying ANY promoter is perfect. But what the OTHER promoters seem to be doing that Warriors is NOT - is learning from their mistakes and doing their best to provide a QUALITY PRODUCT to their customers.

    At the end of the day, Warriors does not do this simple thing. Thank GAWD they don't have any gravity events these days, and I don't have to attend any of their races.
    Full Trucker and I know the issues with Warriors events all too well. With that said, I am not going to dive into the past.

    I will comment, however, on the issues of chip timing. Chip timing does not work well for cycling events because no matter how well the technology comes along, there is never a guarantee that the "mats" pick up the signal from the chip. For instance, if the chip is in the bottom of your shoe, and you are sprinting for the finish (maybe your shoe is angled such that the chip in the bottom of your shoe does not run flat...then the mat may not pick up the signal). Another issue. You are sprinting for the finish line against someone, you ride over a set of mats. You beat the other rider in a sprint. However, the mat picks him up at the first crossing of the mat and picks you up at the end. Results showed you lost.

    In both of these scenarios it is back to the NORBA Officials hand written finishes which can take hours to sort out. Thanks to Big Foot for bringing back CJ timing to do this stuff right the first time. We are excited to have them for Blast the Mass.

    There are other scenarios as well that can cause a missed time. Either way, I have never seen a successful use of the chip system of timing a cycling event. It is a cool feature for splits, location and other recon and analysis, but is still an unproven system for official timing.

  19. #19
    t.i.t.s.ceo/FR amoeba rep
    Reputation: PBR me!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    4,735
    That is why I am a firm believer of the flask

    surly.jpg


    Don't litter it aint cool
    I'm a cowboy on a steel horse i ride!

    the blog

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: packfill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    233
    All race promoters should head up to Winter Park and experience what a really well organized race feels like. Those guys do an outstanding job.

    nice flask.

  21. #21
    feel the Force
    Reputation: mtbjedi1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    546
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoInTheBoat
    All of their productions, eh? Maybe I missed something in the past, mind filling me in?

    Jealous about getting beat? Yeah, I'd be crying too.


    So what if one of the promoters was out racing... Do you think things would have gone more smoothly if the promoter had been around? I would like examples, mtbjedi.

    I have only raced at this crappy venue once, back in the MSC days. Things were a mess then too. I always thought it was just too many people to pack onto a XC course. Kinda makes sense to me when you put a MTB race venue in a metropolitan area.
    Actually, I think Full Trucker did a fine job explaning this, Marko. To add: Short track at Eldora consists of a square around the parking lot. and that's for $50 entry! That's why Wednesday nights get a better turn out then that race. Most promoters are interested in putting on a quality event that will grow in attendance. All of these events are stagnant, or failing. This promoter has a history of not paying his bills. Many people have been burned by his promises of payment, or eventual underpayment of services rendered. Yes, I think he could have prevented the mess with registration, had he been around and made some smart decisions. Seeing the line, the promoter should have been the first one to step up and help checking people in. I agree that it's a tough venue, especially to run 2 different events at the same time, but it could have gone much smoother.

    And lastly, no I'm not jealous about getting beat, because I beat Thane, and you, pretty much every time I pin on a number.

  22. #22
    Cycling, FTW!!
    Reputation: MarkoInTheBoat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    478
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbjedi1
    And lastly, no I'm not jealous about getting beat, because I beat Thane, and you, pretty much every time I pin on a number.
    Sounds like a friendly challenge to me, I'd love to prove you wrong some day.

    I haven't pinned on very many numbers lately so I'm sure its not too hard to beat me.
    But IIRC, last time I raced a NORBA event was in '06 and I ended up with the RUM 19-29 overall series title.

    Thank you and Full Tracker for filling me in. I wasn't aware that so many problems existed with the events that Warrior puts on, and the $ problems that go beyond race weekend.

    The only experience I have at a WC event is the B100, and maybe Battle the Bear a few years ago too. My only complaint with the B100 is the fairly high registration fee, but between the swag and the MASSIVE buffet during the race, I didn't feel like I was getting ripped off.

    Since I obviously don't know the whole story behind WC, I'm just going to shut up now.
    I will say that Thane is an awesome guy, other than yelling at me to "Come on! Keep up with me" during races. Good times.
    "When you pay $340 to do a 24 hour race you'll only have enough money to eat mustard sandwiches the rest of the year." -TD

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •