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  1. #1
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    ATTN: Guys Building in Left hand

    Your poor choice of areas to build a trail is not that great. Building within sight of a high traffic dirt biking/multi-use trail is sure to jeopardize future riding in the area. If you really have the best interests of the MTB and downhill community in mind you would stop building there and if you choose to continue building maybe find a better and more hidden place.

    Singletrack within boulder county is already in jeopardy as it is, so please keep that in mind while you are tearing up our national forest.

    Your license plate number has been given to the forest rangers. Lets hope the trail work party up there this weekend doesnt see your mess and decide to just close the singletrack up there.

    Sorry for the rant!

  2. #2
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    So you're saying I should shuttle Apex instead? Best shoe and pedal combo for shuttling Lefthand?

  3. #3
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    If guys keep building off trail the only left hand left to ride will be the asphalt road.

  4. #4
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    So announcing it on the Internet is supposed to accomplish what?

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    cool I'm gonna go check it out now, and I thought I wasn't going to ride lefthand OHV until winter again.

  6. #6
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    How ruhratrded
    Dont these guys know you can't tear up the forests unless its in the name of profiteering?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow
    So announcing it on the Internet is supposed to accomplish what?
    I am totally for building trails, but to be so retarded that you build it parallel to a trail heavily used by the motorized crew is just asking for trouble. The dirt bikers are just gonna rip up your hard work when it is so easily accessible.

    I figured I would bring it up here to raise some awareness. The people who are anti-biking are going to see this stuff(big jumps and berms not bad looking btw) and next thing you know the forest service is shutting down trails. The careless and selfish acts by these couple people can put a whole riding area at risk. So please, if you decide to build, do so secretly. Especially in an area like lefthand...

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    so if the jumps and berms look good why not just leave it alone.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    so if the jumps and berms look good why not just leave it alone.....
    Oh i left it alone. But just because the stuff looks good, that doesn't justify building off the trail. Do these guys actually know how to build a trail, or have they watched kranked and now they are freeride trail experts?

    If they want to build a trail they should hook up with the IMBA and do it the right way, legally, and with proper planning and techniques. A 250yd trail built by a couple kids on a steep hill is just gonna end up being a 250yd rutted out drainage ditch.

    All of us MTBers fight to ride the trails we currently have, and bad behavior will just lead to less riding. I am kind of surprised with the lack of care you show for the longevity of legal riding on public lands. What do you think the hikers and horse back riders think when they see a couple kids with MTBs and shovels? I can assure you they don't think it is "cool".

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    While on the subject of LHOHV. a lil' bird told me the other day that them Forest Service profiteers closed 287B (new singletrack) due to shooting conflict. Guess people have started shooting near there. Last time I rode it felt like a stray bullet could pierce my helmet at anytime. Figured it as an anomaly, a shooter who went on a big hike to find a spot to practice. Or... was this the first closure as a result of said trailbuilding?

  11. #11
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    Props to evilforlife.
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  12. #12
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    does it look like they know how to build a trail? I am so down to ride it if it looks good. Why not. We need front range downhilling...

    and its not as easy as you think to just contact IMBA and ask if you can build a trail. It takes alot of permits and money that most people dont have.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydoug
    While on the subject of LHOHV. a lil' bird told me the other day that them Forest Service profiteers closed 287B (new singletrack) due to shooting conflict. Guess people have started shooting near there. Last time I rode it felt like a stray bullet could pierce my helmet at anytime. Figured it as an anomaly, a shooter who went on a big hike to find a spot to practice. Or... was this the first closure as a result of said trailbuilding?
    This may be true. The future of lefthand is certainly in peril. Growing conflict between users will not help to continue riding in the area, and once a closure happens in one place it is a slippery slope, and other areas start to shut down. I just want people to be aware to the fact that if we want to ride in the future we have to protect what we have now.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    does it look like they know how to build a trail? I am so down to ride it if it looks good. Why not. We need front range downhilling...

    and its not as easy as you think to just contact IMBA and ask if you can build a trail. It takes alot of permits and money that most people dont have.

    If your don't have the resources to properly and correctly accomplish something, is that something you really should be doing?

  15. #15
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    Have you never had the ambition to build something and put sweat, blood and time into it....and look back after it is finished and be proud of your work

    obviously not

    major props to these trail builders. it sounds like it may not be in the best area but who cars. you live and you learn. I do agree that trail building should be more than taking a shovel out and starting to dig. Environmental planning is a huge part of trail building that alot of people overlook.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    Have you never had the ambition to build something and put sweat, blood and time into it....and look back after it is finished and be proud of your work

    obviously not

    major props to these trail builders. it sounds like it may not be in the best area but who cars. you live and you learn. I do agree that trail building should be more than taking a shovel out and starting to dig. Environmental planning is a huge part of trail building that alot of people overlook.
    I have built plenty of things and have felt the accomplishment of doing so. As you can read from my earlier replies I am clearly not anti trail building, but being selective on where you build can reduce the negative appearance involved with building an illegal trail. I think the ambition is great too but to jeopardize a whole riding area because you may not know how to build and may have chosen a poor area isn't beneficial for the biking community as a whole. You live and learn and I hope these guys learn the right way to do things, or learn how to be more secretive with their work.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    major props to these trail builders.
    What? These guys are building illegally on a piece of land that could put any mountain bike access in jeopardy and you are applauding them?

    If this was their private land and / or they had gotten permission and worked with the proper authorities I would applaud them to, but doing it this way is bad for all of us.

    Do we need some downhill trails in the area? Absolutely.
    Is this a productive way to get them. Absolutely not.

    About 5 or 6 years ago there were 4 guys that were caught building illegal trails around Boulder. I don't remember the specifics, but I believe they got some really big fines handed down to them and faced some prison time. While I do think that is a bit over the top, it just shows that the organizations around here don't look kindly on illegal building.

  18. #18
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    I agree i agree. but to bash fellow mtn bikers seem really messed up in my book. there are too many of these people in colorado these days and its really annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    I agree i agree. but to bash fellow mtn bikers seem really messed up in my book. there are too many of these people in colorado these days and its really annoying.
    better to hear it from your peers then to get caught in the act, especially since Saturday they are having a work crew up there.

    These guys also pulled a couple tons of rocks from the surrounding area, I wonder how much habitat they displaced? This is just further evidence that they don't know what they are doing.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    to bash fellow mtn bikers seem really messed up in my book.
    What a load of nonsense.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    I agree i agree. but to bash fellow mtn bikers seem really messed up in my book. there are too many of these people in colorado these days and its really annoying.
    Policing and educating within the mountain bike community from inside will only improve how others (government) view us as a whole.
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilforlife
    better to hear it from your peers then to get caught in the act, especially since Saturday they are having a work crew up there.

    These guys also pulled a couple tons of rocks from the surrounding area, I wonder how much habitat they displaced? This is just further evidence that they don't know what they are doing.
    did you ever approach the riders and talk about the situation or is hiding behind a desk, spilling out your opinions on a public forum the way you do things...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    I agree i agree. but to bash fellow mtn bikers seem really messed up in my book. there are too many of these people in colorado these days and its really annoying.
    No, these guys aren't bashing the trail builders but trying to guide them into what would be deemed the most appropriate thing to do. They're not saying trail building is bad, just that you can't build anywhere you want, and there can be huge consequences to many, many people by just a few. We're all mtn bikers and would love to see more trails, but you have to understand there is a way to do things, and a way to not. This is an example of a way to not.
    Biker? I don't even know her.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SylentK
    No, these guys aren't bashing the trail builders but trying to guide them into what would be deemed the most appropriate thing to do. They're not saying trail building is bad, just that you can't build anywhere you want, and there can be huge consequences to many, many people by just a few. We're all mtn bikers and would love to see more trails, but you have to understand there is a way to do things, and a way to not. This is an example of a way to not.

    maybe bash wasnt the correct term...i just wonder if evilforlife approached the riders before starting this thread. I think there are better ways to solve a problem than strirring up the bottom of the pond on the internet. i do agree with all the points you are making about keeping the area environmentally stable and reducing the footprint of the area but the last time I was in that area I was not impressed by the condition of the surroundings. if we are talking about the same place, the shooting range is very close and the area is littered with trash and bullet casings. Trail building should be addressed once the area is cleaned up from the shooting range. I was amazed at how much trash was in the area.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    did you ever approach the riders and talk about the situation or is hiding behind a desk, spilling out your opinions on a public forum the way you do things...
    Yeah, maybe they just don't know any better.
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  26. #26
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    Do you know for a fact that it's illegal in the first place? Maybe those guys own the land, or they know the people who do? (just playing devil's advocate)

  27. #27
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    Yawn

  28. #28
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    This is ridiculous!!! I just moved back from the Bay Area where I had to drive an hour to find a "legal" single track trail to ride. Every trail within a 40 mile radius worth riding had a big sign saying "No Bicycles on Singletrack"...."Bicycles on Fire Road Only". This is part of the reason I moved back to Colorado.

    Crap like this is one of the reasons trails are closed to riding. It gives the hiker and equestrian lobby's more ammunition to make MTB'ers out to be the bad guys IN EVERY CASE. There is NO good defense for building a trail (damaging wildlife in the words of others) in an area not approved for it. The people who take care of these lands in a legal capacity do not give a crap if, "We need front range downhilling...". They will close the trails to riding in a second. I have never seen a hiker carrying a shovel up the mountain and blazing their own trail......... and this is why they have such a strong case. Anytime an illegal trail is built the default choices are it was a mountain biker or a motobiker, either way they close the trail to anything with wheels.

    Please think about your actions and how they can affect the entire mountain biking community.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    maybe bash wasnt the correct term...i just wonder if evilforlife approached the riders before starting this thread. I think there are better ways to solve a problem than strirring up the bottom of the pond on the internet. i do agree with all the points you are making about keeping the area environmentally stable and reducing the footprint of the area but the last time I was in that area I was not impressed by the condition of the surroundings. if we are talking about the same place, the shooting range is very close and the area is littered with trash and bullet casings. Trail building should be addressed once the area is cleaned up from the shooting range. I was amazed at how much trash was in the area.
    I will be the first to admit that I did not approach them as I was on my way in and they were heading out, only saw them from a distance, and you are right this is not the best way to solve a problem. But bringing it up on a high traffic forum may raise awareness and maybe prevent others from doing the same thing. I am failing to understand why you seem so personally offended by my attempt to help raise awareness on an issue that puts our riding at risk.

  30. #30
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    Hey evilforlife, when you say that the future of Left Hand OHV is in peril, do you know this to be true for fact? I don't know one way or another but I kinda doubt it. I agree with you that building a freeride trail next to an existing trail or road isn't smart (I haven't seen it). There's LOTS of more discreet locations at LHCOHV to build

    Given the history of that area, and the fact that even the USFS built trails there are completely non sustainable and rutted (and fun), bikes are pretty far down on the totem pole there. I mean, if this was illegal trail building in somewhere like, oh I don't know, West Mag, then the forest service would really do something...

    Just playing devils advocate here. The Boulder Ranger district is understaffed, underbudgeted, and currently under the gun for other things happening at LHC OHV. At least we're fortunate enough that this instance is a location where the forest service is probably going to worry about it less than you and I.

    Not defending them, but here's another viewpoint. The rec planner for the Boulder Ranger district manages use for use that he knows is happening. About 7 or 8 years ago, there were several managament meetings at the district office for use of LHC OHV. We lobbied hard for sustainable bicycle/multi use singletrack and got nowhere. We were pretty much ignored. USFS ended up closing carnage canyon to rock crawlers and made the bottom of 843 "singletrack" and created the 843b "singletrack" for moto and trials guys. The USFS will manage a property for the use it gets. If all sorts of social bike trails start popping up at LHC, perhaps the forest service will notice and start incorporating us into their management plans. I know for a fact that several residents in the area would prefer to see more non motorized use happening at LHC. LHC OHV is in a "zone" that the USFS has deemed high traffic, high use motorized and non motorized recreation. If this illegal trail building was going on in a flora/fauna or wildlife "zone" it would be treated differently. Sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Perhaps the ranger district will recognize this and throw us a bone at Left Hand.
    Last edited by ignazjr; 06-18-2010 at 09:03 AM.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by smmokan
    Do you know for a fact that it's illegal in the first place? Maybe those guys own the land, or they know the people who do? (just playing devil's advocate)
    it's national forest so technically it is taxpayer owned.

  32. #32
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    I think it would be hilarious to see mountain bikers get kicked out of Lefthand. Somehow I doubt it. The irresponsible shooters haven't been kicked out yet and neither have the 4 wheelers.

    Lefthand is just a junk show. A fun yet chaotic junk show.

  33. #33
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    If they wanna build jumps and berms, go to Gunbarrel where it's legal and welcomed.

  34. #34
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    I know this'll probably ruffle some feathers, but...

    Putting it another way, if clandestine trail builders were to construct a well built sustainable bike singletrack at Left Hand, there's actually pretty good odds that we could lobby to keep it open when and if it gets found. That's how all the moto trails got there, even the new one. Well, 80% of the new one anyway.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    I know this'll probably ruffle some feathers, but...

    Putting it another way, if clandestine trail builders were to construct a well built sustainable bike singletrack at Left Hand, there's actually pretty good odds that we could lobby to keep it open when and if it gets found. That's how all the moto trails got there, even the new one. Well, 80% of the new one anyway.

    +1 buddy!! who wants to have a build weekend this upcoming weekend??!!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    I know this'll probably ruffle some feathers, but...

    Putting it another way, if clandestine trail builders were to construct a well built sustainable bike singletrack at Left Hand, there's actually pretty good odds that we could lobby to keep it open when and if it gets found. That's how all the moto trails got there, even the new one. Well, 80% of the new one anyway.
    Keywords here: sustainable, well built, and clandestine. I definetly agree with you here!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    I know this'll probably ruffle some feathers, but...

    Putting it another way, if clandestine trail builders were to construct a well built sustainable bike singletrack at Left Hand, there's actually pretty good odds that we could lobby to keep it open when and if it gets found. That's how all the moto trails got there, even the new one. Well, 80% of the new one anyway.
    Keywords here: When and if it gets found

  38. #38
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    Heh heh. You guys would've loved LHC 10 or 15 years ago. Next time you're there, look up past the cable fence and see all of the old ruts going up and down the hillsides. Those were ALL trails at one time or another.

    The real bummer about it all is that building trail on USFS property is a federal offense. Not awesome.
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    Left hand, environmentally as a whole is FUBAR... the whole place is littered with trash and bullet casings... the existing trails are completely rutted out from moto use and dirt is washing down the mountain constantly as a result.
    I think some things need to be fixed before others.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    Heh heh. You guys would've loved LHC 10 or 15 years ago. Next time you're there, look up past the cable fence and see all of the old ruts going up and down the hillsides. Those were ALL trails at one time or another.

    The real bummer about it all is that building trail on USFS property is a federal offense. Not awesome.
    anybody wanna by some land in the front range. we can install one of these........ATTN: Guys Building in Left hand-poma-lift.jpg

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    I'd gladly donate GIS/design/mapping expertise to would-be independent and organized trail builders along the front range, but no one seems to want to talk about real planning.

    If you have a project shoot me a message.

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    evillife has good intentions and no good deed goes unpunished. Who was good in this case? Merits to both sides of the coin. Junk shop summarizes the area most excellently 69er.
    I've always been more outraged by the lack of moto singletrack in the boulder ranger district. Here's the map... see how few dot-dot-dots there are especially for an OHV area. http://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCU...rdb5165768.pdf
    said it before it would be really nice if mtb and moto dudes could get some organized trailbuilding. This area is often open to cure those snow and mud season blues. BMA priority please? ( i'd personally improve 836 to 837 down and up Spruce Gulch I don't mind hike a bike but wouldn't mind riding a wee bit more)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydoug
    I've always been more outraged by the lack of moto singletrack in the boulder ranger district. Here's the map... see how few dot-dot-dots there are especially for an OHV area. http://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCU...rdb5165768.pdf
    said it before it would be really nice if mtb and moto dudes could get some organized trailbuilding. This area is often open to cure those snow and mud season blues. BMA priority please? ( i'd personally improve 836 to 837 down and up Spruce Gulch I don't mind hike a bike but wouldn't mind riding a wee bit more)
    The last thing on earth mountain bikers should do is aligned themselves with moto users.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    The last thing on earth mountain bikers should do is aligned themselves with moto users.

    especially hick moto users

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    especially hick moto users
    or XTREME moto guys.
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    Pabs maybe in terms of the overall mtb lobbying strategy but for an area that is designated as an OHV use by the forest service I think it is appropriate. I don't mind ridin moto trails and I know motos don't mind sharing the trails. I surmise you don't like motos and that's fine each to their own. Most mtbers do not like riding Lefthand so I see a limited pool of resources to support any expansion effort. We'll be sharing these trails regardless and even more reason to align with the motos.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    The last thing on earth mountain bikers should do is aligned themselves with moto users.

    I'm aligned with moto users because I am one. **** lots of your favorite mountain bikers are. Weins, JHK, Kelli Emmit, Ross Schnell, Nat Ross, and it goes on and on. I'm not going to start on the difficulty of choosing sides in landuse arguments but it is just politics most of the time. As others have said, sustainable trails are where it is at. Lefthand has a trail work party this weekend.

    When: Saturday June 19th, 9AM

    Where: Lefthand Canyon OHV area main entrance.

  48. #48
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    Is that a legit deal 69erSycip? Dang - if I'd have known about it earlier I may have been able to rally a crew. What will you guys be working on?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydoug
    Pabs maybe in terms of the overall mtb lobbying strategy but for an area that is designated as an OHV use by the forest service I think it is appropriate. I don't mind ridin moto trails and I know motos don't mind sharing the trails. I surmise you don't like motos and that's fine each to their own. Most mtbers do not like riding Lefthand so I see a limited pool of resources to support any expansion effort. We'll be sharing these trails regardless and even more reason to align with the motos.
    No. Mountain bikers need to keep up the distinction between themselves and moto users in every and all areas and contexts. Suggesting to land managers that mountain bikes are like motos in one context will lead to a similar conclusion in other contexts.

    I hate riding moto trails, as do lots of mountain bikers because they become rutted out and erroded, and turn into gullies and washed-out-you-can-only-ride-downhill-maybe-crap. Moto trails are also ridden by motocycles, which are loud and, in some instances, not very safe to ride with due to their speed and weight. Of course motos don't mind sharing the trail because their machines can ride over anything. LHORV is a perfect example of why moto use should be limited. Another example is the areas north of I-70 in eastern end of the Grand Valley. Why don't mountain bikers ride there? Because there are motos.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  50. #50
    High Plains Drifter
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    49
    This is an example of how to get it done. One-way DH trail on Forest Service land. Its legit and possible. It happened in the Tetons, it can happen here.
    http://www.tetonfreedomrider.org/

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