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  1. #1
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    ATTN: Guys Building in Left hand

    Your poor choice of areas to build a trail is not that great. Building within sight of a high traffic dirt biking/multi-use trail is sure to jeopardize future riding in the area. If you really have the best interests of the MTB and downhill community in mind you would stop building there and if you choose to continue building maybe find a better and more hidden place.

    Singletrack within boulder county is already in jeopardy as it is, so please keep that in mind while you are tearing up our national forest.

    Your license plate number has been given to the forest rangers. Lets hope the trail work party up there this weekend doesnt see your mess and decide to just close the singletrack up there.

    Sorry for the rant!

  2. #2
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    So you're saying I should shuttle Apex instead? Best shoe and pedal combo for shuttling Lefthand?

  3. #3
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    If guys keep building off trail the only left hand left to ride will be the asphalt road.

  4. #4
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    So announcing it on the Internet is supposed to accomplish what?

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    cool I'm gonna go check it out now, and I thought I wasn't going to ride lefthand OHV until winter again.

  6. #6
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    How ruhratrded
    Dont these guys know you can't tear up the forests unless its in the name of profiteering?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow
    So announcing it on the Internet is supposed to accomplish what?
    I am totally for building trails, but to be so retarded that you build it parallel to a trail heavily used by the motorized crew is just asking for trouble. The dirt bikers are just gonna rip up your hard work when it is so easily accessible.

    I figured I would bring it up here to raise some awareness. The people who are anti-biking are going to see this stuff(big jumps and berms not bad looking btw) and next thing you know the forest service is shutting down trails. The careless and selfish acts by these couple people can put a whole riding area at risk. So please, if you decide to build, do so secretly. Especially in an area like lefthand...

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    so if the jumps and berms look good why not just leave it alone.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    so if the jumps and berms look good why not just leave it alone.....
    Oh i left it alone. But just because the stuff looks good, that doesn't justify building off the trail. Do these guys actually know how to build a trail, or have they watched kranked and now they are freeride trail experts?

    If they want to build a trail they should hook up with the IMBA and do it the right way, legally, and with proper planning and techniques. A 250yd trail built by a couple kids on a steep hill is just gonna end up being a 250yd rutted out drainage ditch.

    All of us MTBers fight to ride the trails we currently have, and bad behavior will just lead to less riding. I am kind of surprised with the lack of care you show for the longevity of legal riding on public lands. What do you think the hikers and horse back riders think when they see a couple kids with MTBs and shovels? I can assure you they don't think it is "cool".

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    While on the subject of LHOHV. a lil' bird told me the other day that them Forest Service profiteers closed 287B (new singletrack) due to shooting conflict. Guess people have started shooting near there. Last time I rode it felt like a stray bullet could pierce my helmet at anytime. Figured it as an anomaly, a shooter who went on a big hike to find a spot to practice. Or... was this the first closure as a result of said trailbuilding?

  11. #11
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    Props to evilforlife.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  12. #12
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    does it look like they know how to build a trail? I am so down to ride it if it looks good. Why not. We need front range downhilling...

    and its not as easy as you think to just contact IMBA and ask if you can build a trail. It takes alot of permits and money that most people dont have.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydoug
    While on the subject of LHOHV. a lil' bird told me the other day that them Forest Service profiteers closed 287B (new singletrack) due to shooting conflict. Guess people have started shooting near there. Last time I rode it felt like a stray bullet could pierce my helmet at anytime. Figured it as an anomaly, a shooter who went on a big hike to find a spot to practice. Or... was this the first closure as a result of said trailbuilding?
    This may be true. The future of lefthand is certainly in peril. Growing conflict between users will not help to continue riding in the area, and once a closure happens in one place it is a slippery slope, and other areas start to shut down. I just want people to be aware to the fact that if we want to ride in the future we have to protect what we have now.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    does it look like they know how to build a trail? I am so down to ride it if it looks good. Why not. We need front range downhilling...

    and its not as easy as you think to just contact IMBA and ask if you can build a trail. It takes alot of permits and money that most people dont have.

    If your don't have the resources to properly and correctly accomplish something, is that something you really should be doing?

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    Have you never had the ambition to build something and put sweat, blood and time into it....and look back after it is finished and be proud of your work

    obviously not

    major props to these trail builders. it sounds like it may not be in the best area but who cars. you live and you learn. I do agree that trail building should be more than taking a shovel out and starting to dig. Environmental planning is a huge part of trail building that alot of people overlook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    Have you never had the ambition to build something and put sweat, blood and time into it....and look back after it is finished and be proud of your work

    obviously not

    major props to these trail builders. it sounds like it may not be in the best area but who cars. you live and you learn. I do agree that trail building should be more than taking a shovel out and starting to dig. Environmental planning is a huge part of trail building that alot of people overlook.
    I have built plenty of things and have felt the accomplishment of doing so. As you can read from my earlier replies I am clearly not anti trail building, but being selective on where you build can reduce the negative appearance involved with building an illegal trail. I think the ambition is great too but to jeopardize a whole riding area because you may not know how to build and may have chosen a poor area isn't beneficial for the biking community as a whole. You live and learn and I hope these guys learn the right way to do things, or learn how to be more secretive with their work.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    major props to these trail builders.
    What? These guys are building illegally on a piece of land that could put any mountain bike access in jeopardy and you are applauding them?

    If this was their private land and / or they had gotten permission and worked with the proper authorities I would applaud them to, but doing it this way is bad for all of us.

    Do we need some downhill trails in the area? Absolutely.
    Is this a productive way to get them. Absolutely not.

    About 5 or 6 years ago there were 4 guys that were caught building illegal trails around Boulder. I don't remember the specifics, but I believe they got some really big fines handed down to them and faced some prison time. While I do think that is a bit over the top, it just shows that the organizations around here don't look kindly on illegal building.

  18. #18
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    I agree i agree. but to bash fellow mtn bikers seem really messed up in my book. there are too many of these people in colorado these days and its really annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    I agree i agree. but to bash fellow mtn bikers seem really messed up in my book. there are too many of these people in colorado these days and its really annoying.
    better to hear it from your peers then to get caught in the act, especially since Saturday they are having a work crew up there.

    These guys also pulled a couple tons of rocks from the surrounding area, I wonder how much habitat they displaced? This is just further evidence that they don't know what they are doing.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    to bash fellow mtn bikers seem really messed up in my book.
    What a load of nonsense.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    I agree i agree. but to bash fellow mtn bikers seem really messed up in my book. there are too many of these people in colorado these days and its really annoying.
    Policing and educating within the mountain bike community from inside will only improve how others (government) view us as a whole.
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilforlife
    better to hear it from your peers then to get caught in the act, especially since Saturday they are having a work crew up there.

    These guys also pulled a couple tons of rocks from the surrounding area, I wonder how much habitat they displaced? This is just further evidence that they don't know what they are doing.
    did you ever approach the riders and talk about the situation or is hiding behind a desk, spilling out your opinions on a public forum the way you do things...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    I agree i agree. but to bash fellow mtn bikers seem really messed up in my book. there are too many of these people in colorado these days and its really annoying.
    No, these guys aren't bashing the trail builders but trying to guide them into what would be deemed the most appropriate thing to do. They're not saying trail building is bad, just that you can't build anywhere you want, and there can be huge consequences to many, many people by just a few. We're all mtn bikers and would love to see more trails, but you have to understand there is a way to do things, and a way to not. This is an example of a way to not.
    Biker? I don't even know her.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SylentK
    No, these guys aren't bashing the trail builders but trying to guide them into what would be deemed the most appropriate thing to do. They're not saying trail building is bad, just that you can't build anywhere you want, and there can be huge consequences to many, many people by just a few. We're all mtn bikers and would love to see more trails, but you have to understand there is a way to do things, and a way to not. This is an example of a way to not.

    maybe bash wasnt the correct term...i just wonder if evilforlife approached the riders before starting this thread. I think there are better ways to solve a problem than strirring up the bottom of the pond on the internet. i do agree with all the points you are making about keeping the area environmentally stable and reducing the footprint of the area but the last time I was in that area I was not impressed by the condition of the surroundings. if we are talking about the same place, the shooting range is very close and the area is littered with trash and bullet casings. Trail building should be addressed once the area is cleaned up from the shooting range. I was amazed at how much trash was in the area.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    did you ever approach the riders and talk about the situation or is hiding behind a desk, spilling out your opinions on a public forum the way you do things...
    Yeah, maybe they just don't know any better.
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  26. #26
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    Do you know for a fact that it's illegal in the first place? Maybe those guys own the land, or they know the people who do? (just playing devil's advocate)

  27. #27
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    Yawn

  28. #28
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    This is ridiculous!!! I just moved back from the Bay Area where I had to drive an hour to find a "legal" single track trail to ride. Every trail within a 40 mile radius worth riding had a big sign saying "No Bicycles on Singletrack"...."Bicycles on Fire Road Only". This is part of the reason I moved back to Colorado.

    Crap like this is one of the reasons trails are closed to riding. It gives the hiker and equestrian lobby's more ammunition to make MTB'ers out to be the bad guys IN EVERY CASE. There is NO good defense for building a trail (damaging wildlife in the words of others) in an area not approved for it. The people who take care of these lands in a legal capacity do not give a crap if, "We need front range downhilling...". They will close the trails to riding in a second. I have never seen a hiker carrying a shovel up the mountain and blazing their own trail......... and this is why they have such a strong case. Anytime an illegal trail is built the default choices are it was a mountain biker or a motobiker, either way they close the trail to anything with wheels.

    Please think about your actions and how they can affect the entire mountain biking community.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    maybe bash wasnt the correct term...i just wonder if evilforlife approached the riders before starting this thread. I think there are better ways to solve a problem than strirring up the bottom of the pond on the internet. i do agree with all the points you are making about keeping the area environmentally stable and reducing the footprint of the area but the last time I was in that area I was not impressed by the condition of the surroundings. if we are talking about the same place, the shooting range is very close and the area is littered with trash and bullet casings. Trail building should be addressed once the area is cleaned up from the shooting range. I was amazed at how much trash was in the area.
    I will be the first to admit that I did not approach them as I was on my way in and they were heading out, only saw them from a distance, and you are right this is not the best way to solve a problem. But bringing it up on a high traffic forum may raise awareness and maybe prevent others from doing the same thing. I am failing to understand why you seem so personally offended by my attempt to help raise awareness on an issue that puts our riding at risk.

  30. #30
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    Hey evilforlife, when you say that the future of Left Hand OHV is in peril, do you know this to be true for fact? I don't know one way or another but I kinda doubt it. I agree with you that building a freeride trail next to an existing trail or road isn't smart (I haven't seen it). There's LOTS of more discreet locations at LHCOHV to build

    Given the history of that area, and the fact that even the USFS built trails there are completely non sustainable and rutted (and fun), bikes are pretty far down on the totem pole there. I mean, if this was illegal trail building in somewhere like, oh I don't know, West Mag, then the forest service would really do something...

    Just playing devils advocate here. The Boulder Ranger district is understaffed, underbudgeted, and currently under the gun for other things happening at LHC OHV. At least we're fortunate enough that this instance is a location where the forest service is probably going to worry about it less than you and I.

    Not defending them, but here's another viewpoint. The rec planner for the Boulder Ranger district manages use for use that he knows is happening. About 7 or 8 years ago, there were several managament meetings at the district office for use of LHC OHV. We lobbied hard for sustainable bicycle/multi use singletrack and got nowhere. We were pretty much ignored. USFS ended up closing carnage canyon to rock crawlers and made the bottom of 843 "singletrack" and created the 843b "singletrack" for moto and trials guys. The USFS will manage a property for the use it gets. If all sorts of social bike trails start popping up at LHC, perhaps the forest service will notice and start incorporating us into their management plans. I know for a fact that several residents in the area would prefer to see more non motorized use happening at LHC. LHC OHV is in a "zone" that the USFS has deemed high traffic, high use motorized and non motorized recreation. If this illegal trail building was going on in a flora/fauna or wildlife "zone" it would be treated differently. Sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Perhaps the ranger district will recognize this and throw us a bone at Left Hand.
    Last edited by ignazjr; 06-18-2010 at 09:03 AM.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by smmokan
    Do you know for a fact that it's illegal in the first place? Maybe those guys own the land, or they know the people who do? (just playing devil's advocate)
    it's national forest so technically it is taxpayer owned.

  32. #32
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    I think it would be hilarious to see mountain bikers get kicked out of Lefthand. Somehow I doubt it. The irresponsible shooters haven't been kicked out yet and neither have the 4 wheelers.

    Lefthand is just a junk show. A fun yet chaotic junk show.

  33. #33
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    If they wanna build jumps and berms, go to Gunbarrel where it's legal and welcomed.

  34. #34
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    I know this'll probably ruffle some feathers, but...

    Putting it another way, if clandestine trail builders were to construct a well built sustainable bike singletrack at Left Hand, there's actually pretty good odds that we could lobby to keep it open when and if it gets found. That's how all the moto trails got there, even the new one. Well, 80% of the new one anyway.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    I know this'll probably ruffle some feathers, but...

    Putting it another way, if clandestine trail builders were to construct a well built sustainable bike singletrack at Left Hand, there's actually pretty good odds that we could lobby to keep it open when and if it gets found. That's how all the moto trails got there, even the new one. Well, 80% of the new one anyway.

    +1 buddy!! who wants to have a build weekend this upcoming weekend??!!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    I know this'll probably ruffle some feathers, but...

    Putting it another way, if clandestine trail builders were to construct a well built sustainable bike singletrack at Left Hand, there's actually pretty good odds that we could lobby to keep it open when and if it gets found. That's how all the moto trails got there, even the new one. Well, 80% of the new one anyway.
    Keywords here: sustainable, well built, and clandestine. I definetly agree with you here!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    I know this'll probably ruffle some feathers, but...

    Putting it another way, if clandestine trail builders were to construct a well built sustainable bike singletrack at Left Hand, there's actually pretty good odds that we could lobby to keep it open when and if it gets found. That's how all the moto trails got there, even the new one. Well, 80% of the new one anyway.
    Keywords here: When and if it gets found

  38. #38
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    Heh heh. You guys would've loved LHC 10 or 15 years ago. Next time you're there, look up past the cable fence and see all of the old ruts going up and down the hillsides. Those were ALL trails at one time or another.

    The real bummer about it all is that building trail on USFS property is a federal offense. Not awesome.
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    Left hand, environmentally as a whole is FUBAR... the whole place is littered with trash and bullet casings... the existing trails are completely rutted out from moto use and dirt is washing down the mountain constantly as a result.
    I think some things need to be fixed before others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    Heh heh. You guys would've loved LHC 10 or 15 years ago. Next time you're there, look up past the cable fence and see all of the old ruts going up and down the hillsides. Those were ALL trails at one time or another.

    The real bummer about it all is that building trail on USFS property is a federal offense. Not awesome.
    anybody wanna by some land in the front range. we can install one of these........ATTN: Guys Building in Left hand-poma-lift.jpg

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    I'd gladly donate GIS/design/mapping expertise to would-be independent and organized trail builders along the front range, but no one seems to want to talk about real planning.

    If you have a project shoot me a message.

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    evillife has good intentions and no good deed goes unpunished. Who was good in this case? Merits to both sides of the coin. Junk shop summarizes the area most excellently 69er.
    I've always been more outraged by the lack of moto singletrack in the boulder ranger district. Here's the map... see how few dot-dot-dots there are especially for an OHV area. http://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCU...rdb5165768.pdf
    said it before it would be really nice if mtb and moto dudes could get some organized trailbuilding. This area is often open to cure those snow and mud season blues. BMA priority please? ( i'd personally improve 836 to 837 down and up Spruce Gulch I don't mind hike a bike but wouldn't mind riding a wee bit more)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydoug
    I've always been more outraged by the lack of moto singletrack in the boulder ranger district. Here's the map... see how few dot-dot-dots there are especially for an OHV area. http://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCU...rdb5165768.pdf
    said it before it would be really nice if mtb and moto dudes could get some organized trailbuilding. This area is often open to cure those snow and mud season blues. BMA priority please? ( i'd personally improve 836 to 837 down and up Spruce Gulch I don't mind hike a bike but wouldn't mind riding a wee bit more)
    The last thing on earth mountain bikers should do is aligned themselves with moto users.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    The last thing on earth mountain bikers should do is aligned themselves with moto users.

    especially hick moto users

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    especially hick moto users
    or XTREME moto guys.
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    Pabs maybe in terms of the overall mtb lobbying strategy but for an area that is designated as an OHV use by the forest service I think it is appropriate. I don't mind ridin moto trails and I know motos don't mind sharing the trails. I surmise you don't like motos and that's fine each to their own. Most mtbers do not like riding Lefthand so I see a limited pool of resources to support any expansion effort. We'll be sharing these trails regardless and even more reason to align with the motos.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    The last thing on earth mountain bikers should do is aligned themselves with moto users.

    I'm aligned with moto users because I am one. **** lots of your favorite mountain bikers are. Weins, JHK, Kelli Emmit, Ross Schnell, Nat Ross, and it goes on and on. I'm not going to start on the difficulty of choosing sides in landuse arguments but it is just politics most of the time. As others have said, sustainable trails are where it is at. Lefthand has a trail work party this weekend.

    When: Saturday June 19th, 9AM

    Where: Lefthand Canyon OHV area main entrance.

  48. #48
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    Is that a legit deal 69erSycip? Dang - if I'd have known about it earlier I may have been able to rally a crew. What will you guys be working on?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydoug
    Pabs maybe in terms of the overall mtb lobbying strategy but for an area that is designated as an OHV use by the forest service I think it is appropriate. I don't mind ridin moto trails and I know motos don't mind sharing the trails. I surmise you don't like motos and that's fine each to their own. Most mtbers do not like riding Lefthand so I see a limited pool of resources to support any expansion effort. We'll be sharing these trails regardless and even more reason to align with the motos.
    No. Mountain bikers need to keep up the distinction between themselves and moto users in every and all areas and contexts. Suggesting to land managers that mountain bikes are like motos in one context will lead to a similar conclusion in other contexts.

    I hate riding moto trails, as do lots of mountain bikers because they become rutted out and erroded, and turn into gullies and washed-out-you-can-only-ride-downhill-maybe-crap. Moto trails are also ridden by motocycles, which are loud and, in some instances, not very safe to ride with due to their speed and weight. Of course motos don't mind sharing the trail because their machines can ride over anything. LHORV is a perfect example of why moto use should be limited. Another example is the areas north of I-70 in eastern end of the Grand Valley. Why don't mountain bikers ride there? Because there are motos.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

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    This is an example of how to get it done. One-way DH trail on Forest Service land. Its legit and possible. It happened in the Tetons, it can happen here.
    http://www.tetonfreedomrider.org/

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69erSycip
    I'm aligned with moto users because I am one. **** lots of your favorite mountain bikers are. Weins, JHK, Kelli Emmit, Ross Schnell, Nat Ross, and it goes on and on. I'm not going to start on the difficulty of choosing sides in landuse arguments but it is just politics most of the time.
    I could not care less who rides moto bikes, the negative effects on the land are the same. Politically, in essentially every context, I think it's a stupid position for mountain bikers to align themselves with moto users.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

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    Pabs have you ever ridden lefthand? I've ridden it for 10 years (on mtb and moto) and have noticed the most significant erosion factor is mother nature due to the trail design.
    I think we enjoy different types of riding I don't mind that stuff in Grand Valley. There should be trails for all types of users and relieve some of the pressure off of the politically contentious boulder area trails.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    Is that a legit deal 69erSycip? Dang - if I'd have known about it earlier I may have been able to rally a crew. What will you guys be working on?

    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589921

    I swear this thread is a deja vu. Like I've read it all before. I'm getting out before I get spooked.

    BTW, I LOVE riding trails that were originally built by motos. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE. They only rut and erode if they aren't sustained after originally laid out.

    We, moto users, just created some new trails down in Angel Fire last weekend. Next year it will be incredible new singletrack for mountain bike use.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydoug
    Pabs have you ever ridden lefthand? I've ridden it for 10 years (on mtb and moto) and have noticed the most significant erosion factor is mother nature due to the trail design.
    Perhaps I didn't explain. Motos loosen more dirt than bikes due to the bigger tires and horsepower. Looser dirt gets erroded more eaily by wind and water. It's a disengenuous argument to claim that "mother nature" is causing the erosion and not the tail users.
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69erSycip
    [url]BTW, I LOVE riding trails that were originally built by motos. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE. They only rut and erode if they aren't sustained after originally laid out.
    There's a difference between trails that may have been originally created in part with motos are trails open to motorized use.

    How many riders would rather ride LHORV area versus Picture Rock?
    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

  56. #56
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    8 times out of 10, I would rather ride LHC OHV than Picture Rock, but I'm going to assume that I'm in the minority here. In fact, I think I probably rode LHC more times that Heil last year. You know what, though? One of the beauties of Picture Rock is that I can leave Lyons, ride thru Heil to LHC OHV, do a lap on the moto stuff then back via Heil. It's a beautiful thing. More trails = more good. I'll share with anyone.

    We don't necessarily need to have a political alignment with motos at LHC or anywhere else, but it doesn't hurt either group of users to lobby for more responsible, shared use, sustainable singletrack.
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    Pabs you didn't answer my question have you honestly ever ridden there? Yes motos do cause greater wear and tear and I won't debate that fact, the other fact is it's an OHV area and intended to be recreated upon. If you saw the lines on some of the trails I think you would understand that running water forces create more damage than the motos. Working together to create more sustainable trail would be a good thing. Wish there was more visibility to trailwork this weekend cause I'm already committed but things could change.

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    I am not familiar with the politics of the Boulder Ranger District of the USFS although I do ride up there a lot. But maybe the issue is the philosophy of land management agencies like the Boulder Ranger District and their unwillingness to acknowledge certain uses that are completely legitimate and available on USFS in other parts of the country.

    If the Boulder County Ranger District is anything like JeffCo Open Space what are the odds that they would ever be supportive of building a trail with jumps, berms, tables, drops, etc...My guess is not very likely. So I say build on...in certain places it seems like the only way that trails of this kind will be built.

    And Lefthand is such a junk show that if I am the USFS I think the last concern I would have is people building some trails.
    Yield to downhill

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilforlife
    Your license plate number has been given to the forest rangers.
    Sorry for the rant!
    Get a life

  60. #60
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    op you deserve to be knocked the****out. mind your own business.

  61. #61
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    New question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by adjunkie
    op you deserve to be knocked the****out. mind your own business.
    Whoa.
    I think maybe you should skip the next round of "Ultimate Fighter".
    It would seem the OP is minding his own business, as his concerns are for the bigger trail access picture.
    The land in question is the OPs business. As it is mine. And yours. It's public land. And as public land the clandestine builders have no more right to build trails on it than you or I would have to build a house in a city park.
    I'm all for more trails. I'm all for sweet downhill trails close to town. But people should get called out for being dumb. I can tell you without even ever seeig this trail that it isn't sustainable. It's not sustainable because it's easily visible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evilforlife
    I will be the first to admit that I did not approach them as I was on my way in and they were heading out, only saw them from a distance, and you are right this is not the best way to solve a problem. But bringing it up on a high traffic forum may raise awareness and maybe prevent others from doing the same thing. I am failing to understand why you seem so personally offended by my attempt to help raise awareness on an issue that puts our riding at risk.
    Ok, raising awareness i can understand. Trail access is a major problem on the front range and illegal trails certainly do not help our position towards one day finally getting legal downhill trails. However, with that said, who are you to take this matter into your own hands?

    Lefthand is a war-zone (literally) and a bunch of diggers are the least of the problems that place has. I do not see what you can possibly accomplish by "attacking" these builders online, or for that matter reporting their licenses plate to the authorities. I mean what do you think the park rangers are going to do? track em down with a police database..uhhhh no. Besides how do u even know the people u saw leaving lefthand as you approached are even the culprits theres tons of downhillers that ride lefthand, are all of them guilty?

    You need to take a step back and think. The only way those builders will be caught is in the act, who knows they might even be up there tomorrow when that trail crew rolls through.

    Im hoping that what ignazjr said about trails in lefthand is true, hopefully that trail is sustainable and theyll keep it around because we really do need some legit downhill trails on the front range soon!

  63. #63
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    How about we just get it over with......

    ......and post GPS coordinates to trail head.

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    Don't we have the moto guys to thank for making Moab what it is today? I'd have to say most of the Moto guys I have met on the trail in Moab have been pretty cool and respectful.

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    Dam I love Colorado

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    As a dher, builder, and trail rider here in Boulder, and knowing who has built that trail, I absolutely believe they are in the wrong. Since seeing this thread, I have sent the two (the two I know who are involved) an email letting them know their actions have caused a stir. I LOVE LHC, I ride my Covert up there all the time. I only dig at LEGAL spots here in and around Boulder (Gunbarrel....). We have quite a few. Now I know they are not DH type of stuff, but you can certainly get your jump on. Left hand allows people to hike and ride there DH bikes.

    Boulder will soon have a bike park, the lifts are open and you can even DH at lefthand if you hike, but leave well enough alone, dont build unsustainable jumps that are likely to cause conflict. It is typically the actions of a few that ruin it for the masses, look at the whole Apex thing as result of some dhers. We do not need more places being closed down to mtb, be it gravity or all mountain

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    cool nice job

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by subliminalshiver
    Whoa.
    I think maybe you should skip the next round of "Ultimate Fighter".

    you're right. skip ultimate fighter

    Last edited by adjunkie; 06-19-2010 at 07:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simcik
    As a dher, builder, and trail rider here in Boulder, and knowing who has built that trail, I absolutely believe they are in the wrong. Since seeing this thread, I have sent the two (the two I know who are involved) an email letting them know their actions have caused a stir. I LOVE LHC, I ride my Covert up there all the time. I only dig at LEGAL spots here in and around Boulder (Gunbarrel....). We have quite a few. Now I know they are not DH type of stuff, but you can certainly get your jump on. Left hand allows people to hike and ride there DH bikes.

    Boulder will soon have a bike park, the lifts are open and you can even DH at lefthand if you hike, but leave well enough alone, dont build unsustainable jumps that are likely to cause conflict. It is typically the actions of a few that ruin it for the masses, look at the whole Apex thing as result of some dhers. We do not need more places being closed down to mtb, be it gravity or all mountain
    wells said, thanks Simcik!

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    Quote Originally Posted by adjunkie
    op you deserve to be knocked the****out. mind your own business.
    as a taxpayer the national forest is my business, and your business. If a bunch of moto dudes were ripping up your trails wouldn't you do something? Even if it is just a public discussion. Your mentality and threats are what closes trails and riding, a few bad apples can ruin the whole bunch.

    Glad to know where you stand when it comes to the future of your sport.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryhead
    Get a life
    Riding and continuing to do so is my life.

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    Has it even been determined that this was "illegal" trail building yet? How do we even know if these people were doing a rouge trail digging they might have been authorized to do what they are doing.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilforlife
    as a taxpayer the national forest is my business, and your business. If a bunch of moto dudes were ripping up your trails wouldn't you do something? Even if it is just a public discussion. Your mentality and threats are what closes trails and riding, a few bad apples can ruin the whole bunch.

    Glad to know where you stand when it comes to the future of your sport.

    wait?! i thought we were talking about bikers....lets stay on the same subject here

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    So there was a trail crew there yesterday right? Did anybody here join or have any insight on how it went?.. maybe we get to keep this trail and then Ill have a new freeriding spot

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    ... and if we just ... ...

    we can only hope thats the case... sounds like a pretty sick trail wouldnt mind riding it in the future

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pabs
    I hate riding moto trails, as do lots of mountain bikers because they become rutted out and erroded, and turn into gullies and washed-out-you-can-only-ride-downhill-maybe-crap.


    Speak for yourself bro, I'm sitting here right now trying to figure out if I should go ride some over the top moto trails that really challenge you or some handmade trail with a hundred endless switch backs that get me no where other than dizzy.

    I don't want to get on a high horse but I'm gonna, way way way back when I started riding mountain bikes it wasn't in some open space or park. It was on moto and off road trails made by motorized users of some sort. Thats the bottom line. If anyone claims that motorized users are new to the land, that's a lie. They were here long before mountain bikes. The problem now is there are alot more moto users and alot more mtb users.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilforlife
    as a taxpayer the national forest is my business, and your business. If a bunch of moto dudes were ripping up your trails wouldn't you do something? Even if it is just a public discussion. Your mentality and threats are what closes trails and riding, a few bad apples can ruin the whole bunch.

    Glad to know where you stand when it comes to the future of your sport.
    i am the bad apple.

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    At least you can admit it.

  79. #79
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    Fyi... those of you that don't want to "align" with the moto users (I'm not one) look at the mtb clubs positions on the hidden gems. Do you think there's a reason why it makes sense to be one the same side?
    The wilderness/ land closure people could give a CRAP less about you however you think you want to "align" yourself. Those people hate you as much as they hate a guy on a 2 stroke dirt ripping quad, and even if they don't... IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE CLOSED LAND IS CLOSED LAND. Why bikers don't get it is SO beyond me. So many of you live in the lala land of "we SHOULD be allowed in wilderness"... how's that been working out for you over the last 30+ years??
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  80. #80
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    Damned moto users! We'd be much better off without Moab and Salida (to name two)!

    C'mon, moto users are not the enemy, and, in fact, they provide us with a lot of trails. On top of that, there really are not that many of them, not like bikers.

    I'm not that sure that a new FR trail is going to necessarily be an automatic shut down of the area to bikes. Seems much more likely that the powers that be will tell everyone to stay off the trail and then, eventually, get around to tearing down. This seems like a hell of a lot of anger for something so trivial that happens all the time.

  81. #81
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    OH, and don't build illegal trails, it's bad.
    http://www.freedom riders

    Never ends well...

    Any of you ever ridden there? One statement from that movie that i just hear over & over in my head, by one of the USFS people... once a trail is in use...it's very hard to get rid of.


    Don't build illegal trails, someone said not to.


    The ONLY good trails... are illegal trails!!

    (sorry, I'm just a local agitator)
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    Fyi... those of you that don't want to "align" with the moto users (I'm not one) look at the mtb clubs positions on the hidden gems. Do you think there's a reason why it makes sense to be one the same side?
    The wilderness/ land closure people could give a CRAP less about you however you think you want to "align" yourself. Those people hate you as much as they hate a guy on a 2 stroke dirt ripping quad, and even if they don't... IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE CLOSED LAND IS CLOSED LAND. Why bikers don't get it is SO beyond me. So many of you live in the lala land of "we SHOULD be allowed in wilderness"... how's that been working out for you over the last 30+ years??

    yup, wilderness designation sux. Parts of Montana are disappearing, its upsetting.
    But maybe you have seen some of the non-motorized, non-wilderness sections of the state?

    Or, are you locked in @ CCC there, Mr Grylls?

  83. #83
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    How many riders would rather ride LHORV area versus Picture Rock?

    I would. I prob ride LHC OHV twice a week. There are lots of trails there. A poor choice for a location on a new one isn't the smartest, but not likely very high on the USFS priority list at that circus.

    As has been said before- most trails at lefthand started as "social trails." The real problem with the USFS finding a nicely built MTB trail is it would be signed, and therefore more noticeable, to motos. I have no problem with motos, but they certainly can wreck stunts/features. Downhill trails- they aren't so bad, just make it more rough.

    ...and for those of you concerned, I've talked to the rangers about the closure of 825. It's NOT closed to mountain bikes. In fact, bikes are allowed anywhere, there are no closures (except for carnage/restoration closures) which apply to mountain bikes, as it's non-motorized. 825 won't be open to dirt bikes till at least next year, due to the shooting thing. I've had close calls on that trail (bullet type, idiots shooting in the canyons on the exit trail), but you can hear them before you see them, so with discretion it isn't so bad.

  84. #84
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    Ah, double post- sorry.


    But for whoever suggested modifying the Spruce Gulch trails- those are great! Shouldn't be touched. Classic steep/tech.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    yup, wilderness designation sux. Parts of Montana are disappearing, its upsetting.
    But maybe you have seen some of the non-motorized, non-wilderness sections of the state?

    Or, are you locked in @ CCC there, Mr Grylls?

    Hehe, I'm ALL for non moto but bike friendly areas, great idea. Unfortunately, it's a hard thing to get it seems (am I off on that?).

    Considering the amount of Scummit they're trying to close off to ALL OF US... I get a bit sickened by the people who think that the pie in the sky, we'll fix the wilderness designation later, way of thinking will work because they don't want to be seen as pro moto. The areas/types of designations that you mention are a GREAT idea but won't help the fact that we're losing land to wilderness NOW.

    (btw, the designation you mention is very similar to the N. basin of Jones pass just up from my house (I'm scared to leave CCC ), pic of new fence below from when they closed off the basin to summer motorized traffic)



    had a great hike without getting run over by a SINGLE motorized user the other day!
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianbuma
    But for whoever suggested modifying the Spruce Gulch trails- those are great! Shouldn't be touched. Classic steep/tech.
    What they really need to do there is make a climbable trail from the bottom of Spruce Gulch up to the saddle by the 841/842 intersection. Apparently, that used to be a legit "escape route" for trials bikes but it has been swallowed up over time and no longer exists. Probably wouldn't take too much to get it going again, I spect. Going down into Spruce is fun, but the hike out sucks, even for me.
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    [sarc]Boy, am I disappointed[/sarc]

    Here I thought this was about new trails, not a couple of DJ's in the middle of BoCo moto redneck heaven, if such a thing is not an oxymoron.

    Why is it that only DH riders dig/build trails ?

    Just as my favorite form of backpacking/hiking is "off trail aka xc" there is no reason you can't do it on a bike. Get off the trails and just ride through the middle of no-where

    Unlimited lines means more "Gnar" than anything you can build.

    Then again you wouldn't be able to claim a speed record or "No Dabs" for a "trail" that doesn't even exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    OH, and don't build illegal trails, it's bad.
    http://www.freedom riders

    Never ends well...

    Any of you ever ridden there?
    (sorry, I'm just a local agitator)
    I rode off the top of Teton pass last summer and it was some of the best riding ever!

    Like they said, once a trail is built it's hard to get rid of... to Freedomriders.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    What they really need to do there is make a climbable trail from the bottom of Spruce Gulch up to the saddle by the 841/842 intersection. Apparently, that used to be a legit "escape route" for trials bikes but it has been swallowed up over time and no longer exists. Probably wouldn't take too much to get it going again, I spect. Going down into Spruce is fun, but the hike out sucks, even for me.
    Yes, I "imagine" the trail is even still there. But, it crosses private property for about 100 yards. The lady that owns the property is quite nice regarding access, but has apparently had bad experiences with motos cutting down from Spruce Gulch to the highway and wants no part in a trail, motorized or otherwise. So it's technically trespassing to take that route. A trail could be constructed up on the hillside to avoid the private prop, but it'd take some construction...

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    Here's why this makes me mad:

    I believe the illegal trail builders are doing the right thing and furthering our sport.

    I believe OP is doing the wrong thing and helping to get trails shut down.

    Here is my rationale:

    I've noticed the general attitude on here goes something like: follow the rules, do what "they" say, and maybe if we're lucky they'll let us ride on our trails that our tax dollars pay for.

    What if everyone built their own trail? How could "they" possibly stop all of them?

    What if everyone rode any trail they wanted, any how they wanted, any time they wanted?
    How could "they" possibly control all of us?

    Didn't the majority of you grow up in the era where citizens of the USA stood up to the government and stopped a war?? How did that happen? By being politically correct and doing what "they" said is right? I don't think so.

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    Does anyone have an real facts instead of speculation about these "illegal" trails? Sounds to me like no one has actually talked to the people building and are assuming they are "illegal"

  92. #92
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    for what it's worth, I have seen the management planfor LHC and it does not call for more singletrack. I believe the guy you want to talk to at the Boulder ranger district is named Brian. He is overseeing the LHC management plan.
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    When I first saw this post I just thought this was the slopestyle whooped out section on the very top of 286 near fire closure and eventual way to castle gulch. Haven't been able to check out yet. More info would be good to end the speculation, although it is fun.

    ignaz they just had the comment period for management plan in late 2009 that I remember you telling me about. I guess one could always comment. I found some info on how "new singletrack" got built as part of 2006 plan.
    "The 2006 Lefthand OHV Area Travel Management Plan authorized the inclusion of a single track trail that follows a ridge and creates a loop from Forest Road 287.1B down to Forest Road 286.1B. Currently part of this route is an old closed wagon road, part of the route is a user created singletrack, and part of the route there is no trail and it needs to be constructed. Boulder Ranger District has scheduled a trail crew to do the trail construction in September/October 2009. This August project for the volunteers will consist of installing post and cable barriers to create a “trail head” to stop full sized vehicles and ATVs from driving on the new single track trail. The new trail will not open until October." Source COHVCO Stay the Trail website
    Based upon history with old route up from Spruce Gulch there might be the precedence to get something going here- just avoid the private property. Other winner would be private property owner- reason why motos end up cutting thru and to highway is once they get down there is self realization they ain't making it back up.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by adjunkie
    Here's why this makes me mad:

    I believe the illegal trail builders are doing the right thing and furthering our sport.

    I believe OP is doing the wrong thing and helping to get trails shut down.

    Here is my rationale:

    I've noticed the general attitude on here goes something like: follow the rules, do what "they" say, and maybe if we're lucky they'll let us ride on our trails that our tax dollars pay for.

    What if everyone built their own trail? How could "they" possibly stop all of them?

    What if everyone rode any trail they wanted, any how they wanted, any time they wanted?
    How could "they" possibly control all of us?

    Didn't the majority of you grow up in the era where citizens of the USA stood up to the government and stopped a war?? How did that happen? By being politically correct and doing what "they" said is right? I don't think so.
    Are you talking about the hippies that disrespected the young men who went off to fight a war when they returned? The ones who did not allow those same men to have the resources they needed to do the job they were sent to do and thus caused longer involvement and higher casualty counts? Those men who spent sleepless nights in an awful place, while they were at home gettting high? I certainly can't think of another time in US history that I can think of anything so ghastly as that happening. Always a way to spin things, but that makes me sick (and I wasn't born then, just read quite a bit about the era and the conflict). I can understand the whole rebellion against the governemt thing, but you are really reaching.

    Sorry for the digression.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCR1
    Are you talking about the hippies that disrespected the young men who went off to fight a war when they returned? The ones who did not allow those same men to have the resources they needed to do the job they were sent to do and thus caused longer involvement and higher casualty counts? Those men who spent sleepless nights in an awful place, while they were at home gettting high? I certainly can't think of another time in US history that I can think of anything so ghastly as that happening. Always a way to spin things, but that makes me sick (and I wasn't born then, just read quite a bit about the era and the conflict). I can understand the whole rebellion against the governemt thing, but you are really reaching.

    Sorry for the digression.
    Yes you can spin things in different ways. As you did to my post. Obviously, I was not talking about disrespecting soldiers. They deserve the utmost respect. The point was that citizens did not like what the government was doing, so they organized and put an end to it.

  96. #96
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    97% of Moto riders are ignorant hicks and 93% Downhillers are pvssy wannabe thugs.

    Does this need to be discussed?

  97. #97
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    Ummm, chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by adjunkie
    Here's why this makes me mad:

    I believe the illegal trail builders are doing the right thing and furthering our sport.

    I believe OP is doing the wrong thing and helping to get trails shut down.

    Here is my rationale:

    I've noticed the general attitude on here goes something like: follow the rules, do what "they" say, and maybe if we're lucky they'll let us ride on our trails that our tax dollars pay for.

    What if everyone built their own trail? How could "they" possibly stop all of them?

    What if everyone rode any trail they wanted, any how they wanted, any time they wanted?
    How could "they" possibly control all of us?

    Didn't the majority of you grow up in the era where citizens of the USA stood up to the government and stopped a war?? How did that happen? By being politically correct and doing what "they" said is right? I don't think so.
    Then you'd have chaos. The fact of the matter is that when there are large populations near a trail system, it gets a lot of use. The land (by law) is managed not just for recreation, but other purposes too, including environmental protection. So when the recreational use poses some threat to other purposes the government has to manage it. Do they always do a good job? Hell no. Neither would you.

    I think we should limit civil disobedience to the most egregious violations of our rights. Not allowing you to build trails anywhere you want on public land, or not allowing you to ride your bike anywhere you want on public land doesn't quite rise to that level. Talk to me when you're in prison for no reason.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by llama
    Then you'd have chaos. The fact of the matter is that when there are large populations near a trail system, it gets a lot of use. The land (by law) is managed not just for recreation, but other purposes too, including environmental protection. So when the recreational use poses some threat to other purposes the government has to manage it. Do they always do a good job? Hell no. Neither would you.

    I think we should limit civil disobedience to the most egregious violations of our rights. Not allowing you to build trails anywhere you want on public land, or not allowing you to ride your bike anywhere you want on public land doesn't quite rise to that level. Talk to me when you're in prison for no reason.

    oh yeah environmental protection my a**!! the so called "law" doesnt do so well with managing this land for environmental protection reasons....the area is littered with everything from beer bottles to broken glass to ammo casings to clay birds to trash all within the Lefthand canyon watershed.

    this problem should be taken care of first in my opinion

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhltfour
    oh yeah environmental protection my a**!! the so called "law" doesnt do so well with managing this land for environmental protection reasons....the area is littered with everything from beer bottles to broken glass to ammo casings to clay birds to trash all within the Lefthand canyon watershed.

    this problem should be taken care of first in my opinion
    True enough, but I don't see how building an illegal trail will help with any of that.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by llama
    True enough, but I don't see how building an illegal trail will help with any of that.

    Also don't see it hurting that either.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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