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  1. #1
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    Article on why buying USA made goods is more often than not....bad for us.


  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    Please explain why.
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y
    Please explain why.

  4. #4
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    A basic principle of economics is people will act rationally and do what's in their best interest. Where we are is a natural outcome of capitalism when world trade is factored in. It's going agains the fundamentals of the free market system to buy something more expensive because it's domestic. Having said that, I would love it if tax structures made it in our best interest to buy domestic, but I'm sure that's not practical in today's global market, and we just don't make enough stuff to support our own population. Sad, but true.

  5. #5
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    Dumb article.
    1. First stupid premise is to explain the disaster of immediately ending all imports. Duh.
    2. Second stupid premise is to explain away low priced imports as more efficient producers. Chinese goods are cheap due to slave labor and government subsidies, not efficiency.

    American manufacturing is good for America, but the best way to support American manufacturing would be through government incentives and intervention, rather than a consumer driven effort to support American companies, although there is nothing wrong with that.
    Isn't it kind of obvious that if we relied less on not so friendly countries for imports, and put people to work here to make the things we need and become more self sufficient, that would be good.
    Germany is doing much better than most of the rest of the EU, thanks to its infrastructure and a non-free market approach (in many cases) by the government to support manufacturing, small business, etc.
    A long and detailed article on Germany:

    The secret of the German system's success is, in large part, a strong national commitment to advanced manufacturing. At last count the industry still made up about 20 percent of Germany's total output, compared with little more than 11 percent in the United States. The pivotal significance of a strong manufacturing sector is understood by virtually all thoughtful Germans even if it is scorned by many of America's most influential economists.

    http://prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...conomic_engine

    Its a complex issue, and we need to compete in a world market, but we need to abandon the "free market at all costs" mentality. A manufacturing base is necessary for economic security and national security in general. the government has the power to manipulate markets, as Germany has done, and should do so for our own best interests.

  6. #6
    I think I can.
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    The sky is falling from within

    I read the article and believe the basic premise to be flawed, check out this stat.

    "However, manufacturing as a share of the economy has been plummeting. In 1965, manufacturing accounted for 53 percent of the economy. By 1988 it only accounted for 39 percent, and in 2004, it accounted for just 9 percent."


    With that in mind if we don't start making an effort to become more self reliant there will no choice, inflation will be controlled by external factors, the US will loose any and all leverage for pricing and competition.

    By the way, they use a guy from Palmdale California as a reference, not a place I would ever live again.

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  7. #7
    Oh, So Interesting!
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    What a ridiculous article... we need to stop consuming poorly made, disposable goods regardless of where they're made. Right now, we are taking advantage of manipulated money markets and environmental/labor laws in countries like China and India, who are willing to destroy their environment and treat their workers poorly to sell poorly designed and manufactured goods at cheaper prices.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y
    Please explain why.
    You're supposed to explain yourself on the internet? jeez...that's a new one.

    I typically don't like to initially put my opinion in on something I post that can get very opinionated. I'd rather have other people just get what they think out of it first.

    Anyway...I think it's a flawed piece as well. However...I am no economist....
    so I'm not even touching the global economy stuff.....

    When you spend more on an equivalent product simply because it's made in the U.S., you're wasting your money -- and supporting an inefficient manufacturer that, by rights, should become more efficient or go out of business. Moreover, the additional $9.01 or $200 that Kruskol had spent on an inefficient U.S. producer could have been spent on something else, helping the economy further. Or it could have stayed in his savings account and been funneled by his bank into the financial system, which in theory allocates capital to the most efficient producers.
    This just spews big wig mentality. I do agree that bad companies deserve to go out of business....but they're assuming that if it's more expensive, it's always inefficient. I believe the cost difference in US made is because the US costs more in general...more to live = more to pay workers, etc. On the other hand...we live in a better place than many around the world. It's worth it..and it's worth supporting these people.

    I take it that they are claiming that paying people very little (possibly even exploiting them...Nike anyone?) = efficiency. They obviously would not say this though...and that's bullsh*t.

    I 100% agree with point #1 of smilinsteve's post....the immediate cancellation of imports. It's their way of getting their point across in a totally illogical, sensational type of way. Really...talking about not buying certain fruits because it's not "american made"...just foolish.

    This article really just makes me think it was written to make these companies feel better about themselves, and try to manipulate others into thinking everything is good the direction it's currently heading. Look who the publisher is (microsoft)...and who the experts are (Investors). They are the ones that win if people listen to this article.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    You're supposed to explain yourself on the internet? jeez...that's a new one.

    I typically don't like to initially put my opinion in on something I post that can get very opinionated. I'd rather have other people just get what they think out of it first.

    Anyway...I think it's a flawed piece as well. However...I am no economist....
    so I'm not even touching the global economy stuff.....



    This just spews big wig mentality. I do agree that bad companies deserve to go out of business....but they're assuming that if it's more expensive, it's always inefficient. I believe the cost difference in US made is because the US costs more in general...more to live = more to pay workers, etc. On the other hand...we live in a better place than many around the world. It's worth it..and it's worth supporting these people.

    I take it that they are claiming that paying people very little (possibly even exploiting them...Nike anyone?) = efficiency. They obviously would not say this though...and that's bullsh*t.

    I 100% agree with point #1 of smilinsteve's post....the immediate cancellation of imports. It's their way of getting their point across in a totally illogical, sensational type of way. Really...talking about not buying certain fruits because it's not "american made"...just foolish.

    This article really just makes me think it was written to make these companies feel better about themselves, and try to manipulate others into thinking everything is good the direction it's currently heading. Look who the publisher is (microsoft)...and who the experts are (Investors). They are the ones that win if people listen to this article.
    You don't need to justify your post. I was just curious of the perspective you're coming from to cause you such grief. If I was going to tear you a new one, I just like to know up front how I can shred your opinion (j/k)
    Seriously tho, I've seen some gems buried amongst SS's steamin' piles so I figure others must be capable of doing better
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  10. #10
    killin clear creek
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    There's some serious flaws in their thinking in that article... I mean, people don't really put pieces of slimy yellow banana on their cereal do they??


    I'd love to know the motivation behind the writing of this. It's a strange premise to have & uses an overly simplistic idea as it's basis without factoring MANY factors that people look at.


    Disappointing to see something like this, I'm no rabid "patriot" that will automatically buy USA, but there are things that are worth paying for in some industries.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  11. #11
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    So basically the US should stick to what we're good at and let the rest of the world manufacture everything. It's a good thing that the Chinese like genetically modified corn and soy beans because at the rate we're going that will be the only thing we produce domestically.

    Our economy is like a fire. The US arguably still has the best intellectual capital in the world (the match and tinder), but if there aren't any people trained to actually make the ideas or machines to produce the ideas on (the wood), it's going to be hard to keep the fire going.

    Our economy has stayed afloat for the past decade based on the fact that we could buy cheap stuff abroad with a relatively strong dollar. In the future, as the dollar value crumbles and the price of everything goes up for us, it's going to be a painful problem.


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine

    This kind of infuriates me...
    That's usually what happens to me too when I try to listen to people with 2 last names. You should know better.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    There's some serious flaws in their thinking in that article... I mean, people don't really put pieces of slimy yellow banana on their cereal do they??

    .
    Damn straight I do! Every morning for 30 years.

    IMHO shopping/buying "only American made" frames and hanging made in Taiwan forks and components is just plain dumb.

  14. #14
    killin clear creek
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973
    Damn straight I do! Every morning for 30 years.

    IMHO shopping/buying "only American made" frames and hanging made in Taiwan forks and components is just plain dumb.

    well for one... that's just nasty. (bananas? really? ugh!)

    but as to imports... speaking in overwhelming generalizations like "ONLY American made" or ONLY import... are never the solution. Reality is somewhere in the middle. There are things both offer that the other won't & that changes from company to company & biz ethics that go along with that. You'll never see the Taiwan bike maker helping fund trails in CO for example... the point is that it's not simply black & white.

    I'm almost never the low bid in what I do, yet I keep getting work, it's because we've got an ethic of working in a way & producing a product that apparently others don't. That's not inefficiency, it's a choice in how to do business. The same goes for company to company here in the usa, or compared to a company across the pond. There are just more factors than price.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  15. #15
    Rolling
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    I completely agree with the article. My beef, is the news is nothing new or surprising.

    This is economics 101. If everyone was rational they would buy the cheapest, buy generic products, optimize the car they own, not buy perfume or hip clothes, not eat out or go to Starbucks.

    Want some exciting economics, look at the cutting edge stuff that shows irrational behavior. Stuff like economic bubbles, lotteries, and my favorite, penny auctions (e.g. swoopo).
    Last edited by lidarman; 05-24-2011 at 07:36 PM.

  16. #16
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    Shouldn't this be in the politics...etc. forum? Anyone know of a good campground near Ft. Collins?

    Anyways, the article is just making the case that we all benefit from trade. I'm shocked at the comments that can't grasp that. How many of you built your own bikes from the raw earth? This is what you are arguing for. Scratch specialization of labor and trade, bring on the tariffs, become more self sufficient... I'm not arguing that you MUST buy the cheapest foreign good you can find or that the right choice for you isn't a handcrafted locally made frame, but these calls for economic protectionism and vilifying imports is complete insanity.

    Here is some free reading that will teach you more about economics than a 4 year degree in it will: http://www.hacer.org/pdf/Hazlitt00.pdf

  17. #17
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    My one comment would be that while production should go to the most efficient producer of goods which increases wealth for everyone, a country should not set up a tax code that makes competing countries more efficient (ie cheaper). Thereby artificially moving jobs and wealth out of their own country that is equally efficient if not for the tax code.

    That would be just plain dumb. but who would do something like that
    Helping folks shred in Boulder & Colorado since 1982 www.fullcyclebikes.com

  18. #18
    killin clear creek
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    I completely agree with the article. My beef, is the news is nothing new or surprising.

    This is economics 101. If everyone was rational they would buy the cheapest, buy generic products, optimize the car they own, not buy perfume or hip clothes, not eat out or go to Starbucks.

    Want some exciting economics, look at the cutting edge stuff that shows irrational behavior. Stuff like economic bubbles, lotteries, and my favorite, penny auctions (e.g. swoopo).
    Don't even get me started with the morons who do those horrid new auctions... pay $100 to buy something for $.50... what a deal?

    As for the first comment though, you completely miss the idea that the cheapest isn't ALWAYS the most cost effective. When you buy a poorly made product that doesn't last as long you're costing yourself money. DO you buy your bikes from walmart? they ARE cheaper, so there is NO rational reason to sped more... RIGHT???

    Like I said above... speaking in generalizations serves no purpose. it's not black & white.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by westeast
    Shouldn't this be in the politics...etc. forum? Anyone know of a good campground near Ft. Collins?
    I posted it here because it seems there are less dingbats in the local forums, and was kinda hoping for it to stem into support local CO business at the same time. (No, I don't own a business) Wasn't looking to get views from people that just talk and don't think. Also wasn't looking for the thread to become 50 million views and responses.

    AND...the poli/socio/eco/religion forum has been closed to new posts for a long time.

    There is no question that we all benefit from trade, that's probably the only reason this world isn't a big crater by now.

    But how much are we actually exporting compared to what we used to? It seems we're importing nearly everything but intellectual property.

    I'm hoping that "US made" can become that special sound, just like many of us think when it's "swedish made", "german made", "italian made", etc.

    I will read that link you posted though....just need some more time. However, after skimming through it...it cites no references and/or studies. The scan may have cut that part out, however words are nearly worthless unless you have something to back it up with...unless of course you're talking about thoughts or opinion. It sounds like you're stating economics as cut and dry fact based on that reading. I will still try to take the time to read it.

  20. #20
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    As for the first comment though, you completely miss the idea that the cheapest isn't ALWAYS the most cost effective. When you buy a poorly made product that doesn't last as long you're costing yourself money. DO you buy your bikes from walmart? they ARE cheaper, so there is NO rational reason to sped more... RIGHT???
    Hilarious. Did you read what you wrote?

    Yep, I'm a moron too and missed it......oops.

    Thanks for clearing that up and edumacating my lame mind.

    Your only true statement is that it's not black and white. I never said "ALWAYS." Besides, focusing on one point in a debate to argue has a clinical name, but my lame mind can't think of it at the moment.
    Last edited by lidarman; 05-24-2011 at 09:16 PM.

  21. #21
    killin clear creek
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    I completely agree with the article.

    This is economics 101. If everyone was rational they would buy the cheapest

    These seem pretty black & white to me bud. You make a statement that is very clear (despite missing the word "always") & then want to be prick to me because I call you on it??? wtf? It's a discussion... discuss.


    btw... I made no comment about your lame mind, or calling you names... I simply disagreed with what you said.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  22. #22
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    These seem pretty black & white to me bud. You make a statement that is very clear (despite missing the word "always") & then want to be prick to me because I call you on it??? wtf? It's a discussion... discuss.


    btw... I made no comment about your lame mind, or calling you names... I simply disagreed with what you said.
    Get some rest.

  23. #23
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    Great discussion...

    I thought that this article was interesting

    http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/...red-prosperity

    I think that a global economy only benefits global company CEO's...

    BTW BC, I think that you and LM aren't too different as far as perspective goes... just sayin'...
    MY dog can lick YOUR dog!

  24. #24
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    It's a stupid article because it follows that: "buy everything from one country" logic...of course that's impractical. In the real world, I make choices, and one bit of data I use is country of origin.
    whatever...

  25. #25
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    I buy American whenever possible. I'm always looking at where stuff is made. Buy imported products and they fall apart. It takes away jobs from us and are kids. Also, we'd be in a hell of a lot better shape economically if we didn't buy imports. That article is just more corporate propaganda brainwashing people into thinking that it's ok to buy imports. Back before nafta was passed (Clinton sellout) we weren't nearly as dependent on foreign countries and this country was thriving, now there's excess unemployment, the dollar doesn't buy nearly as much as it used to. The politicians for the most part have been selling us out for decades to big corporations and banks. Whoever believes in that article's an idiot. nafta screwed alot of people. Manufacturing is pretty much extinct in this country now. It provided corporations with a legal loophole to manufacture stuff overseas for pennies on the dollar, and guess what, I can bet they didn't pass any of that savings onto us. They just found a more efficient way to screw the consumer, lets here it for big business. Oh, and lets not forget about the politicians that helped them out............

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