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  1. #1
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    Article on why buying USA made goods is more often than not....bad for us.


  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    Please explain why.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y
    Please explain why.

  4. #4
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    A basic principle of economics is people will act rationally and do what's in their best interest. Where we are is a natural outcome of capitalism when world trade is factored in. It's going agains the fundamentals of the free market system to buy something more expensive because it's domestic. Having said that, I would love it if tax structures made it in our best interest to buy domestic, but I'm sure that's not practical in today's global market, and we just don't make enough stuff to support our own population. Sad, but true.

  5. #5
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    Dumb article.
    1. First stupid premise is to explain the disaster of immediately ending all imports. Duh.
    2. Second stupid premise is to explain away low priced imports as more efficient producers. Chinese goods are cheap due to slave labor and government subsidies, not efficiency.

    American manufacturing is good for America, but the best way to support American manufacturing would be through government incentives and intervention, rather than a consumer driven effort to support American companies, although there is nothing wrong with that.
    Isn't it kind of obvious that if we relied less on not so friendly countries for imports, and put people to work here to make the things we need and become more self sufficient, that would be good.
    Germany is doing much better than most of the rest of the EU, thanks to its infrastructure and a non-free market approach (in many cases) by the government to support manufacturing, small business, etc.
    A long and detailed article on Germany:

    The secret of the German system's success is, in large part, a strong national commitment to advanced manufacturing. At last count the industry still made up about 20 percent of Germany's total output, compared with little more than 11 percent in the United States. The pivotal significance of a strong manufacturing sector is understood by virtually all thoughtful Germans even if it is scorned by many of America's most influential economists.

    http://prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...conomic_engine

    Its a complex issue, and we need to compete in a world market, but we need to abandon the "free market at all costs" mentality. A manufacturing base is necessary for economic security and national security in general. the government has the power to manipulate markets, as Germany has done, and should do so for our own best interests.

  6. #6
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    The sky is falling from within

    I read the article and believe the basic premise to be flawed, check out this stat.

    "However, manufacturing as a share of the economy has been plummeting. In 1965, manufacturing accounted for 53 percent of the economy. By 1988 it only accounted for 39 percent, and in 2004, it accounted for just 9 percent."


    With that in mind if we don't start making an effort to become more self reliant there will no choice, inflation will be controlled by external factors, the US will loose any and all leverage for pricing and competition.

    By the way, they use a guy from Palmdale California as a reference, not a place I would ever live again.

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  7. #7
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    What a ridiculous article... we need to stop consuming poorly made, disposable goods regardless of where they're made. Right now, we are taking advantage of manipulated money markets and environmental/labor laws in countries like China and India, who are willing to destroy their environment and treat their workers poorly to sell poorly designed and manufactured goods at cheaper prices.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y
    Please explain why.
    You're supposed to explain yourself on the internet? jeez...that's a new one.

    I typically don't like to initially put my opinion in on something I post that can get very opinionated. I'd rather have other people just get what they think out of it first.

    Anyway...I think it's a flawed piece as well. However...I am no economist....
    so I'm not even touching the global economy stuff.....

    When you spend more on an equivalent product simply because it's made in the U.S., you're wasting your money -- and supporting an inefficient manufacturer that, by rights, should become more efficient or go out of business. Moreover, the additional $9.01 or $200 that Kruskol had spent on an inefficient U.S. producer could have been spent on something else, helping the economy further. Or it could have stayed in his savings account and been funneled by his bank into the financial system, which in theory allocates capital to the most efficient producers.
    This just spews big wig mentality. I do agree that bad companies deserve to go out of business....but they're assuming that if it's more expensive, it's always inefficient. I believe the cost difference in US made is because the US costs more in general...more to live = more to pay workers, etc. On the other hand...we live in a better place than many around the world. It's worth it..and it's worth supporting these people.

    I take it that they are claiming that paying people very little (possibly even exploiting them...Nike anyone?) = efficiency. They obviously would not say this though...and that's bullsh*t.

    I 100% agree with point #1 of smilinsteve's post....the immediate cancellation of imports. It's their way of getting their point across in a totally illogical, sensational type of way. Really...talking about not buying certain fruits because it's not "american made"...just foolish.

    This article really just makes me think it was written to make these companies feel better about themselves, and try to manipulate others into thinking everything is good the direction it's currently heading. Look who the publisher is (microsoft)...and who the experts are (Investors). They are the ones that win if people listen to this article.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    You're supposed to explain yourself on the internet? jeez...that's a new one.

    I typically don't like to initially put my opinion in on something I post that can get very opinionated. I'd rather have other people just get what they think out of it first.

    Anyway...I think it's a flawed piece as well. However...I am no economist....
    so I'm not even touching the global economy stuff.....



    This just spews big wig mentality. I do agree that bad companies deserve to go out of business....but they're assuming that if it's more expensive, it's always inefficient. I believe the cost difference in US made is because the US costs more in general...more to live = more to pay workers, etc. On the other hand...we live in a better place than many around the world. It's worth it..and it's worth supporting these people.

    I take it that they are claiming that paying people very little (possibly even exploiting them...Nike anyone?) = efficiency. They obviously would not say this though...and that's bullsh*t.

    I 100% agree with point #1 of smilinsteve's post....the immediate cancellation of imports. It's their way of getting their point across in a totally illogical, sensational type of way. Really...talking about not buying certain fruits because it's not "american made"...just foolish.

    This article really just makes me think it was written to make these companies feel better about themselves, and try to manipulate others into thinking everything is good the direction it's currently heading. Look who the publisher is (microsoft)...and who the experts are (Investors). They are the ones that win if people listen to this article.
    You don't need to justify your post. I was just curious of the perspective you're coming from to cause you such grief. If I was going to tear you a new one, I just like to know up front how I can shred your opinion (j/k)
    Seriously tho, I've seen some gems buried amongst SS's steamin' piles so I figure others must be capable of doing better
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  10. #10
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    There's some serious flaws in their thinking in that article... I mean, people don't really put pieces of slimy yellow banana on their cereal do they??


    I'd love to know the motivation behind the writing of this. It's a strange premise to have & uses an overly simplistic idea as it's basis without factoring MANY factors that people look at.


    Disappointing to see something like this, I'm no rabid "patriot" that will automatically buy USA, but there are things that are worth paying for in some industries.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  11. #11
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    So basically the US should stick to what we're good at and let the rest of the world manufacture everything. It's a good thing that the Chinese like genetically modified corn and soy beans because at the rate we're going that will be the only thing we produce domestically.

    Our economy is like a fire. The US arguably still has the best intellectual capital in the world (the match and tinder), but if there aren't any people trained to actually make the ideas or machines to produce the ideas on (the wood), it's going to be hard to keep the fire going.

    Our economy has stayed afloat for the past decade based on the fact that we could buy cheap stuff abroad with a relatively strong dollar. In the future, as the dollar value crumbles and the price of everything goes up for us, it's going to be a painful problem.


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine

    This kind of infuriates me...
    That's usually what happens to me too when I try to listen to people with 2 last names. You should know better.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    There's some serious flaws in their thinking in that article... I mean, people don't really put pieces of slimy yellow banana on their cereal do they??

    .
    Damn straight I do! Every morning for 30 years.

    IMHO shopping/buying "only American made" frames and hanging made in Taiwan forks and components is just plain dumb.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973
    Damn straight I do! Every morning for 30 years.

    IMHO shopping/buying "only American made" frames and hanging made in Taiwan forks and components is just plain dumb.

    well for one... that's just nasty. (bananas? really? ugh!)

    but as to imports... speaking in overwhelming generalizations like "ONLY American made" or ONLY import... are never the solution. Reality is somewhere in the middle. There are things both offer that the other won't & that changes from company to company & biz ethics that go along with that. You'll never see the Taiwan bike maker helping fund trails in CO for example... the point is that it's not simply black & white.

    I'm almost never the low bid in what I do, yet I keep getting work, it's because we've got an ethic of working in a way & producing a product that apparently others don't. That's not inefficiency, it's a choice in how to do business. The same goes for company to company here in the usa, or compared to a company across the pond. There are just more factors than price.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  15. #15
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    I completely agree with the article. My beef, is the news is nothing new or surprising.

    This is economics 101. If everyone was rational they would buy the cheapest, buy generic products, optimize the car they own, not buy perfume or hip clothes, not eat out or go to Starbucks.

    Want some exciting economics, look at the cutting edge stuff that shows irrational behavior. Stuff like economic bubbles, lotteries, and my favorite, penny auctions (e.g. swoopo).
    Last edited by lidarman; 05-24-2011 at 08:36 PM.

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    Shouldn't this be in the politics...etc. forum? Anyone know of a good campground near Ft. Collins?

    Anyways, the article is just making the case that we all benefit from trade. I'm shocked at the comments that can't grasp that. How many of you built your own bikes from the raw earth? This is what you are arguing for. Scratch specialization of labor and trade, bring on the tariffs, become more self sufficient... I'm not arguing that you MUST buy the cheapest foreign good you can find or that the right choice for you isn't a handcrafted locally made frame, but these calls for economic protectionism and vilifying imports is complete insanity.

    Here is some free reading that will teach you more about economics than a 4 year degree in it will: http://www.hacer.org/pdf/Hazlitt00.pdf

  17. #17
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    My one comment would be that while production should go to the most efficient producer of goods which increases wealth for everyone, a country should not set up a tax code that makes competing countries more efficient (ie cheaper). Thereby artificially moving jobs and wealth out of their own country that is equally efficient if not for the tax code.

    That would be just plain dumb. but who would do something like that
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    I completely agree with the article. My beef, is the news is nothing new or surprising.

    This is economics 101. If everyone was rational they would buy the cheapest, buy generic products, optimize the car they own, not buy perfume or hip clothes, not eat out or go to Starbucks.

    Want some exciting economics, look at the cutting edge stuff that shows irrational behavior. Stuff like economic bubbles, lotteries, and my favorite, penny auctions (e.g. swoopo).
    Don't even get me started with the morons who do those horrid new auctions... pay $100 to buy something for $.50... what a deal?

    As for the first comment though, you completely miss the idea that the cheapest isn't ALWAYS the most cost effective. When you buy a poorly made product that doesn't last as long you're costing yourself money. DO you buy your bikes from walmart? they ARE cheaper, so there is NO rational reason to sped more... RIGHT???

    Like I said above... speaking in generalizations serves no purpose. it's not black & white.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by westeast
    Shouldn't this be in the politics...etc. forum? Anyone know of a good campground near Ft. Collins?
    I posted it here because it seems there are less dingbats in the local forums, and was kinda hoping for it to stem into support local CO business at the same time. (No, I don't own a business) Wasn't looking to get views from people that just talk and don't think. Also wasn't looking for the thread to become 50 million views and responses.

    AND...the poli/socio/eco/religion forum has been closed to new posts for a long time.

    There is no question that we all benefit from trade, that's probably the only reason this world isn't a big crater by now.

    But how much are we actually exporting compared to what we used to? It seems we're importing nearly everything but intellectual property.

    I'm hoping that "US made" can become that special sound, just like many of us think when it's "swedish made", "german made", "italian made", etc.

    I will read that link you posted though....just need some more time. However, after skimming through it...it cites no references and/or studies. The scan may have cut that part out, however words are nearly worthless unless you have something to back it up with...unless of course you're talking about thoughts or opinion. It sounds like you're stating economics as cut and dry fact based on that reading. I will still try to take the time to read it.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    As for the first comment though, you completely miss the idea that the cheapest isn't ALWAYS the most cost effective. When you buy a poorly made product that doesn't last as long you're costing yourself money. DO you buy your bikes from walmart? they ARE cheaper, so there is NO rational reason to sped more... RIGHT???
    Hilarious. Did you read what you wrote?

    Yep, I'm a moron too and missed it......oops.

    Thanks for clearing that up and edumacating my lame mind.

    Your only true statement is that it's not black and white. I never said "ALWAYS." Besides, focusing on one point in a debate to argue has a clinical name, but my lame mind can't think of it at the moment.
    Last edited by lidarman; 05-24-2011 at 10:16 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    I completely agree with the article.

    This is economics 101. If everyone was rational they would buy the cheapest

    These seem pretty black & white to me bud. You make a statement that is very clear (despite missing the word "always") & then want to be prick to me because I call you on it??? wtf? It's a discussion... discuss.


    btw... I made no comment about your lame mind, or calling you names... I simply disagreed with what you said.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    These seem pretty black & white to me bud. You make a statement that is very clear (despite missing the word "always") & then want to be prick to me because I call you on it??? wtf? It's a discussion... discuss.


    btw... I made no comment about your lame mind, or calling you names... I simply disagreed with what you said.
    Get some rest.

  23. #23
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    Great discussion...

    I thought that this article was interesting

    http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/...red-prosperity

    I think that a global economy only benefits global company CEO's...

    BTW BC, I think that you and LM aren't too different as far as perspective goes... just sayin'...
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  24. #24
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    It's a stupid article because it follows that: "buy everything from one country" logic...of course that's impractical. In the real world, I make choices, and one bit of data I use is country of origin.
    whatever...

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    I buy American whenever possible. I'm always looking at where stuff is made. Buy imported products and they fall apart. It takes away jobs from us and are kids. Also, we'd be in a hell of a lot better shape economically if we didn't buy imports. That article is just more corporate propaganda brainwashing people into thinking that it's ok to buy imports. Back before nafta was passed (Clinton sellout) we weren't nearly as dependent on foreign countries and this country was thriving, now there's excess unemployment, the dollar doesn't buy nearly as much as it used to. The politicians for the most part have been selling us out for decades to big corporations and banks. Whoever believes in that article's an idiot. nafta screwed alot of people. Manufacturing is pretty much extinct in this country now. It provided corporations with a legal loophole to manufacture stuff overseas for pennies on the dollar, and guess what, I can bet they didn't pass any of that savings onto us. They just found a more efficient way to screw the consumer, lets here it for big business. Oh, and lets not forget about the politicians that helped them out............

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    Sorry for the rant, but, that kinda s**t really gets on my nerves.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbbs View Post
    Sorry for the rant, but, that kinda s**t really gets on my nerves.
    As poorly thought out propaganda should.

    If more thought was put into many things in life, we would all be better off.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  28. #28
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    Buy what is best for your needs and budget... everything else will sort itself out (assuming no government intervention of course).

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter View Post
    Buy what is best for your needs and budget... everything else will sort itself out (assuming no government intervention of course).
    Sure it will, as long as you are ok with speaking Chinese and working for 3 rice cakes per day. The free market will always "sort itself out", without regard to suffering, hunger, destruction, economic upheaval, war etc. Frankly, I'd rather not let the market be totally "free", and choose intervention to maintain stability and steady growth.

    And think about this as well: Free markets tend to drift toward not being free. Big companies buy small, become too big to fail, create monopolies etc, and bam, no more free market. That's a natural consequence of a free market, and a classic example of why government intervention works, and is good.

  30. #30
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    I try to "ABC" when I can (alwaysbuycolorado). Now I'm going to read the article.
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    Sure it will, as long as you are ok with speaking Chinese and working for 3 rice cakes per day. The free market will always "sort itself out", without regard to suffering, hunger, destruction, economic upheaval, war etc. Frankly, I'd rather not let the market be totally "free", and choose intervention to maintain stability and steady growth.

    And think about this as well: Free markets tend to drift toward not being free. Big companies buy small, become too big to fail, create monopolies etc, and bam, no more free market. That's a natural consequence of a free market, and a classic example of why government intervention works, and is good.
    Well said.

    The market is already doing exactly what you mention. The labor market has taken jobs that were good paying 15 years ago & in 15 years they have dropped WAY down in wage. Whether it be due to Chinese imports, or illegal labor, or many other factors like unions being attacked at every possible chance by big biz... the "free market" is becoming significantly less free every day.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    Sure it will, as long as you are ok with speaking Chinese and working for 3 rice cakes per day
    Have you ever spend any time in a factory in China? I have, about 12 factories a year, without any evidence of 'slave labor'. The minimum wage has increased 10x in the last ten years, and the current labor force makes about 4x - 10x what their parents currently make. Given that this is the third generation of the One Child Policy, it's getting harder to find enough workers, which increases wage competition. It's not unknown for a worker just to pack up their belongings and walk across the road to a new job for more money, any time they want to. Workers dress in modern Western style clothing, have their meals provided (meat, vegetables and rice) and nearly all have a cell phone.

    That said, I wouldn't want to work in a Chinese factory for twelve hour shifts with mandatory overtime on weekends because in college on summer break I worked in an American factory 12 hours a day with mandatory overtime on weekends.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn D. View Post
    Have you ever spend any time in a factory in China? I have, about 12 factories a year, without any evidence of 'slave labor'. The minimum wage has increased 10x in the last ten years, and the current labor force makes about 4x - 10x what their parents currently make. Given that this is the third generation of the One Child Policy, it's getting harder to find enough workers, which increases wage competition. It's not unknown for a worker just to pack up their belongings and walk across the road to a new job for more money, any time they want to. Workers dress in modern Western style clothing, have their meals provided (meat, vegetables and rice) and nearly all have a cell phone.

    That said, I wouldn't want to work in a Chinese factory for twelve hour shifts with mandatory overtime on weekends because in college on summer break I worked in an American factory 12 hours a day with mandatory overtime on weekends.
    I've never been in a Chinese factory but I've been in plenty of American and Mexican ones. Regardless of how much things have improved in the third world, we have the best standard of living, and those other countries are improving theirs by learning our technology and profiting in our markets. That means we have some control, so we can let the "free market" drive us toward unemployment and loss of power over our own manufacturing, or we can use logic instead of ideology to intervene in markets to our own advantage.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I've never been in a Chinese factory but I've been in plenty of American and Mexican ones. Regardless of how much things have improved in the third world, we have the best standard of living, and those other countries are improving theirs by learning our technology and profiting in our markets. That means we have some control, so we can let the "free market" drive us toward unemployment and loss of power over our own manufacturing, or we can use logic instead of ideology to intervene in markets to our own advantage.
    Without going into how well government intervention in the market works out, to get to your idealized state you'd have to change the way the consumer views inexpensive versus more expensive goods, and perhaps more difficult, get the corporations to change their views on what is an "advantage". Given that corporations are legally bound by US regulations to prioritize increasing shareholder value over social issues, I think we'd see companies investing their limited capital into expanding into other regions rather than trying to grow or even maintain an American market. BRIC mean anything to you?

    Another point. Examine the demographics of the US workforce, especially those unemployed, who would likely be those to fill repatriated manufacturing jobs. Do we have enough people who would take those jobs? I'm sure that we'd want those jobs to go to US citizens, of course, not to any guest workers, legal or not, correct? Now count how many Chinese manufacturing jobs there are supplying this country. Of course, we'd wouldn't need so many, because as the cost of goods go up due to higher US wages and overhead, the lower demand for those goods would mean fewer would need to be made for sale.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn D. View Post
    Without going into how well government intervention in the market works out, to get to your idealized state you'd have to change the way the consumer views inexpensive versus more expensive goods, and perhaps more difficult, get the corporations to change their views on what is an "advantage". Given that corporations are legally bound by US regulations to prioritize increasing shareholder value over social issues, I think we'd see companies investing their limited capital into expanding into other regions rather than trying to grow or even maintain an American market. BRIC mean anything to you?

    Another point. Examine the demographics of the US workforce, especially those unemployed, who would likely be those to fill repatriated manufacturing jobs. Do we have enough people who would take those jobs? I'm sure that we'd want those jobs to go to US citizens, of course, not to any guest workers, legal or not, correct? Now count how many Chinese manufacturing jobs there are supplying this country. Of course, we'd wouldn't need so many, because as the cost of goods go up due to higher US wages and overhead, the lower demand for those goods would mean fewer would need to be made for sale.
    This is obviously a theoretical discussion, as there is no way that we will ever get all the mfg back, nor do we really want to return to that proportion of mfg in our economy imo. Keeping SOME, or more than we currently have though, would be ideal.

    As for government intervention, it's a constant in our economy, the markets are HUGELY manipulated by the gov, from electronics to soybeans & corn... it's what we've got. I don't think that most of it is ideal, but some of it seems needed. If you leave things SOLELY to the whims of the market, we get huge negatives there as well though, so there is a balance that needs to be struck.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  36. #36
    I think I can.
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    You complain about China

    What you have not discussed is what is gonna happen when China no longer is a 3rd world.

    Look at these stats
    http://www.wikinvest.com/concept/Ris...s_Middle_Class

    Think for a moment about global oil prices, steel, basic food supplies and so on, and what about China's infastructure like roads, power and housing. Cost of goods will rise no matter what.

    My question is what is happening in the US right now to stabalize our future,

    oh yeah we are borrowing money

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  37. #37
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    As someone who works for one of the large "evil" corporations (with manufacturing in China) in Strategic Development/Finance, keeping true assembly line manufacturing in the U.S. is not even a consideration, the margins on most manufactured goods are razor thin (10-20%). These costs have to support considerable R&D costs/capital expenditures, and overall G&A expenses. While the U.S. is the largest consumer market in the world, our market share is shrinking as other parts of the world develop.

    Companies make decisions in-order to compete globally. The biggest impediment to the US economy is too much government regulation, and corporate taxation. We currently pay 39.5% total income taxes (fed/state) in the US, in other markets we pay as little as 13%, this drives sales and investment outside of the US, not because we aren't patriotic and we want to offshore resources, but because we can't stay competitive in the global market when we are so largely penalized domestically.

    No amount of domestic protectionism will make us competitive with other countries that are committed to growing their economies. History has show over and over again that free market policies are best, we do need some regulations to limit monopolization of industries and environmental abuse, but other than that government intervention has too many unintended consequences.

    For example, the current administration has mandated higher fuel efficiency regulations for auto sales, and subsidized the production of ethanol (a highly inefficient energy source), the intent of these regulations are to reduce fossil fuel consumption. While this may have value, the unintended consequences of these regulations are huge. A large portion of US agriculture has converted to ethanol corn production, due to higher margins for subsidized ethanol. This has reduced other grain production in the US, within the past few years the US has switched from a net grain exporter, to a net grain importer. This has caused huge price increase for food globally, not just grain but all food that is grain dependent (such as live stock).

    Government regulations always cause inefficiency, it is econ 101 the examples are endless. The only way we can compete globally is to get government out of the way and produce innovative products and services.

  38. #38
    Oh, So Interesting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn D. View Post
    Have you ever spend any time in a factory in China? I have, about 12 factories a year, without any evidence of 'slave labor'. The minimum wage has increased 10x in the last ten years, and the current labor force makes about 4x - 10x what their parents currently make. Given that this is the third generation of the One Child Policy, it's getting harder to find enough workers, which increases wage competition. It's not unknown for a worker just to pack up their belongings and walk across the road to a new job for more money, any time they want to. Workers dress in modern Western style clothing, have their meals provided (meat, vegetables and rice) and nearly all have a cell phone.

    That said, I wouldn't want to work in a Chinese factory for twelve hour shifts with mandatory overtime on weekends because in college on summer break I worked in an American factory 12 hours a day with mandatory overtime on weekends.
    Whatever... I worked for a company with production in China and worker safety and environmental concerns are last on the list of priorities. Life in China isn't given too much concern, and if a worker gets injured, he gets the boot, next in line please.

    While conditions are improving, the motivation behind going to China had EVERYTHING to do with cheap labor and weak or nonexistent environmental laws.

    The picture you paint of the Chinese worker is one sided and overly rosy, IMO. Many Chinese deal with work conditions that are unsafe and unhealthy to the degree that they are often risking their welfare because of risk of injury or risking their health due to inadequate protection from chemical or environmental hazards.

  39. #39
    I think I can.
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    davemk

    You nailed it IMHO.

    It could be as simple as telling the EPA and Gov't to streamline project approval and our growth issues could be a conversation of the past.

    Can't remember who said it but those in power seek more power then power will corrupt completely, or something like that

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemk View Post
    The biggest impediment to the US economy is too much government regulation, and corporate taxation.
    Quote Originally Posted by davemk View Post
    Government regulations always cause inefficiency, it is econ 101 the examples are endless. The only way we can compete globally is to get government out of the way and produce innovative products and services.
    I do not believe these statements are entirely true, although I understand where you are coming from (similar background). I believe the biggest inefficiency is PEOPLE, corrupt people. The reason there are rules, laws and regulations for the most part are because a person used the free market system and tried to manipulate something for their own advancement in a way that is deemed unethical or immoral by our society. Obviously you can look at Enron, Goldman, many Wall Street firms, etc as recent examples. Unfortunately the role of our government over the past 200+ years is to create regulations, laws, etc. to (try to) protect our economy which gives investors confidence to invest in our economy. Has this resulted in many unintentional inefficiency's, yes. Is there a realistic simple solution, no.
    Does globalization hurt our economy short term? Yes. Is there a strong correlation between counties with strong economies and who are “friendly” to the U.S.? I think there is. Does this help us long-term? I believe it does. A lot of my opinions on this have been shaped by my upbringing and my ex-marine, Vietnam vet father (who played golf on Monday).

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyinCO View Post
    The reason there are rules, laws and regulations for the most part are because a person used the free market system and tried to manipulate something for their own advancement in a way that is deemed unethical or immoral by our society. Obviously you can look at Enron, Goldman, many Wall Street firms, etc as recent examples. Unfortunately the role of our government over the past 200+ years is to create regulations, laws, etc. to (try to) protect our economy which gives investors confidence to invest in our economy.
    I understand your perspective, IMO financial/audit compliance is not a hindrance to economic growth (although Sarbanes-Oxley is very burdensome for many small to mid sized public corps). SEC reporting generally encourages growth due to the openness that investors enjoy in the US, (I certainly feel the added risk when I evaluate financials from companies based in developing countires). The inefficiencies are driven by other government bureaucracies that have overgrown original mandates and drive unnecessary expenses/delays. For instance we are currently waiting on the FCC to approve a major merger that has no monopolistic impact, but because we are under their jurisdiction we need approval. This has driven nearly $1M in added legal/consulting expenses and delay in the closure of the deal which adds incremental interest income on the bonds.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemk View Post
    Companies make decisions in-order to compete globally. The biggest impediment to the US economy is too much government regulation, and corporate taxation. We currently pay 39.5% total income taxes (fed/state) in the US, in other markets we pay as little as 13%, this drives sales and investment outside of the US, not because we aren't patriotic and we want to offshore resources, but because we can't stay competitive in the global market when we are so largely penalized domestically.
    If you're paying the full statuatory tax rate of 39.5%, you need to fire your tax attorneys and accountants. Effective tax rates show a more realistic picture, as do corporate taxes as a percent of GDP. That said, one way corporations reduce that effective tax rate is by taking profits offshore, among other loopholes. That's not a big help for the US economy for sure.

    Then there's this:

    http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2011...s_avoidin.html

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn D. View Post
    If you're paying the full statuatory tax rate of 39.5%, you need to fire your tax attorneys and accountants.
    Obviously we take all of the legal deductions for interest, depreciation, etc, investment/profits in foreign countries also allow similar deductions so generally the tax rate comparison is apples to apples.

  44. #44
    killin clear creek
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    If a company like GM can pay nothing in taxes in the usa... I fail to see how apples to apples matters. Zero is a tough number to beat.

    I agree about a lot of regulation, but much (not all) has a very sound purpose, the problem is in implementation... and I believe nearly every government is going to be relatively poor at that. The reactionary way in which we deal with legislation in this country is pretty conducive to a cycle of abuse, poor oversight, then event, then horrid overreaction that causes things eventually to go too far the other way.

    Either way, we will NEVER buy 100% usa made goods, but I sure hope there are some items that remain being made in country.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  45. #45
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    Not that it matters because I don't think people on MTBR are particularly concerned with the tax code, but the reason GM is not paying taxes is because they have net loss carry forward credits from previous years. They are following the tax code like everyone else. It is apples to apples because the same thing can happen in other countries.

    I hope that we retain manufacturing in the US as well, IMO we have to provide innovative products that need expertise to manufacture for that to happen.

  46. #46
    I think I can.
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    OK I will say it

    FLAT TAX!!!!!


    Fair taxation is what we were promised, with the manipulation of the tax code by the people who wrote the regulatory process its legislated to fail by design.

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  47. #47
    killin clear creek
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemk View Post
    the reason GM is not paying taxes is because they have net loss carry forward credits from previous years.
    Ha! I'm a dumbazz... I mean GE!!! (and NOT EVEN CLOSE to a net loss there)
    sorry, typos seem to be a constant for me lately.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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