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Thread: Apex Takedown

  1. #1
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    Apex Takedown

    So last night Iím enjoying a ride up Chimney and down Enchanted Forest/Apex. As I begin the initial downhill descent on Apex (immediately after Sluicebox) I hear brakes locking up behind me and the next thing I know Iím on the ground with blood coming out of my knee. As I get up I realize that the back of my calf is also bloodied after being grazed by my big ring during the takedown. As Iím taking inventory to make sure Iím able to ride out I turn around to see where my bike is and who hit me. The rider was all apologies of course and was wearing full knee/shin pads and came out of the accident without a scratch.

    So whatís the point, well accidents will happen, however, in this case the accident was caused by a rider that was flying down Apex without any regard for anyone that might have the misfortune of being in his way. There are two possible mindsets that caused this accident:

    1) The rider did see me, was in control, and without saying a word was going to try and pass me on the outside because he couldnít be bothered to slow down.
    2) The rider was out of control, came around a blind spot in the trail and plowed into another rider.

    Iím leaning toward the latter, but either case is completely unacceptable and this is exactly the kind of selfish and ignorant riding style that is going to result in high traffic areas like Apex being shut down to bikers. If this collision happens between a biker/influential hiker, weíre going to see more than odd day restrictions on sections of trail at Apex.

    As I made my way back down to the parking lot two rangers were there, I reported the rider and provided a description of him. They were both very concerned and we talked about the Apex shuttler that had been discussed in the past few days here on mtbr as well as other recent incidents that they cited including a deaf man being run off of the trail by a downhiller because he didnít hear the rider approach as well as a pregnant woman that was run off of a trail again by a downhiller who was apparently shredding too much front range gnar to be bothered to slow down. Iíve been mountain biking the front range regularly for over 10 years and 99.9% of the people I encounter on the trail are cool and just happy to be out. But dude, WTF, why are you riding out of control on such a busy trail, youíre lucky I wasnít seriously injured. To the other 99.9% of you, carry on and keep riding like little Fonzies out there. And whats Fonzie like? Heís cool and thatís what weíre gonna be. Weíre gonna be cool.

  2. #2
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    Where's the popcorn?

  3. #3
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    At least a 2 pager. This sucks, but at least the rangers know. I have never heard of person being hit from behind. Now that is insane.

    Erik

  4. #4
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    Damn dude, that sucks.

    I think it's good that you reported that, even if the trail gets shut down to bikes. If you would have let it slide then nothing would ever change. The "higher-ups" will take this info and see that they can't stop mountain biking from happening, thus they will have to have more trails, and even dedicated downhill trails.

    I agree with zzsean though, this stuff can happen anywhere, an on any trail though.
    Last edited by Drop the Seat; 06-23-2010 at 02:32 PM.

  5. #5
    Mojo0115
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    Was he wearing a thug half-lid?

    Seriously, blind spots and high speed encounters as a result happen on all sorts of trails. I have had it happen to me on Porcupine. It's a part of riding on trails that other people ride on.

    should the other guy have been more careful? most definitely, was he sorry and apologetic as a result? it sounds like it. Move on and stop crying is my advice.

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    Same risks go for skiing/snowboarding and people have gone to jail/charged with manslaughter, so if you think no one should be held accountable for their actions i got news for you.



    Seriously, blind spots and high speed encounters as a result happen on all sorts of trails. I have had it happen to me on Porcupine. It's a part of riding on trails that other people ride on.

    should the other guy have been more careful? most definitely, was he sorry and apologetic as a result? it sounds like it. Move on and stop crying is my advice.[/QUOTE]

  7. #7
    Mojo0115
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrock450
    Same risks go for skiing/snowboarding and people have gone to jail/charged with manslaughter, so if you think no one should be held accountable for their actions i got news for you.



    Quote Originally Posted by zzsean
    Seriously, blind spots and high speed encounters as a result happen on all sorts of trails. I have had it happen to me on Porcupine. It's a part of riding on trails that other people ride on.

    should the other guy have been more careful? most definitely, was he sorry and apologetic as a result? it sounds like it. Move on and stop crying is my advice.
    I agree, Lawyers are always the best option.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamprince
    So last night Iím enjoying a ride up Chimney and down Enchanted Forest/Apex. As I begin the initial downhill descent on Apex (immediately after Sluicebox) I hear brakes locking up behind me and the next thing I know Iím on the ground with blood coming out of my knee. As I get up I realize that the back of my calf is also bloodied after being grazed by my big ring during the takedown. As Iím taking inventory to make sure Iím able to ride out I turn around to see where my bike is and who hit me. The rider was all apologies of course and was wearing full knee/shin pads and came out of the accident without a scratch.

    So whatís the point, well accidents will happen, however, in this case the accident was caused by a rider that was flying down Apex without any regard for anyone that might have the misfortune of being in his way. There are two possible mindsets that caused this accident:

    1) The rider did see me, was in control, and without saying a word was going to try and pass me on the outside because he couldnít be bothered to slow down.
    2) The rider was out of control, came around a blind spot in the trail and plowed into another rider.

    Iím leaning toward the latter, but either case is completely unacceptable and this is exactly the kind of selfish and ignorant riding style that is going to result in high traffic areas like Apex being shut down to bikers. If this collision happens between a biker/influential hiker, weíre going to see more than odd day restrictions on sections of trail at Apex.

    As I made my way back down to the parking lot two rangers were there, I reported the rider and provided a description of him. They were both very concerned and we talked about the Apex shuttler that had been discussed in the past few days here on mtbr as well as other recent incidents that they cited including a deaf man being run off of the trail by a downhiller because he didnít hear the rider approach as well as a pregnant woman that was run off of a trail again by a downhiller who was apparently shredding too much front range gnar to be bothered to slow down. Iíve been mountain biking the front range regularly for over 10 years and 99.9% of the people I encounter on the trail are cool and just happy to be out. But dude, WTF, why are you riding out of control on such a busy trail, youíre lucky I wasnít seriously injured. To the other 99.9% of you, carry on and keep riding like little Fonzies out there. And whats Fonzie like? Heís cool and thatís what weíre gonna be. Weíre gonna be cool.
    I remember this from last night. We waited around for the rider, but he/she never came back down. We were thinking he/she might have stopped at the upper lot. You did the right thing by reporting it. I swear there are more biker/biker altercations than other users. It kind of proved my theory last night.

    Both of the Rangers last night ride mountain bikes. They understand the issues.

  9. #9
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    Another reason why I love the Springs. Way less user conflict.

    Last night I passed two hikers the whole 2hr ride..

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    There's never gonna be a good excuse by someone who came up on another rider at speed and caused them to crash. Never. The guy might have been all apologies but they were coming from a complete idiot. "Hey, sorry man" for them is the same as breathing. F..kn idiots.
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  11. #11
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    That is one trail I do not like to ride anymore. The good thing is there is one less rider to get mowed down.

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    I knew there was a reason I stopped riding Apex.

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    I think the best solution would be to simply designate a few bike-only trails and close those to bikes that encourage this type of riding/conflict, ie anyone in need of a shuttle is probably not doing the same type of riding/use conducive to the trails original design intention. It's pretty simple and I dont ride DH.

    I can think of a number of reasonable ways to accomodate everyone. I don't see why JCOS cant figure it out.

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    What kind of tires was he running?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitek79
    What kind of tires was he running?
    too awesome

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    So much for all the changes at Apex... next thing you know they'll try and ban both body armor and tires larger than 2.15.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter
    So much for all the changes at Apex... next thing you know they'll try and ban both body armor and tires larger than 2.15.
    I think some of you are being a bit too negative. Things are going very well at Apex. There are much fewer complaints and riders are not feeling disenfranchised. Actually, it's quite opposite. Riders are happy that on even days they feel a little more relaxed that they might forget and do the wrong thing.

    If you look back at previous Apex posts, I was very negative about changes. Remember, I felt (and still do to some extent) that any restrictions are bad restrictions. However, given the crowded nature of the trails (especially Apex), The "management plan" is actually working.

    As for biker on biker conflicts, that rests on our shoulders to fix. When there are conflicts within the same user group, the problems lie much deeper and most of the time it is lack of education on etiquette. It's time for us to step up to the plate.

  18. #18
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    I'm wishing this would make the news. Intra-species conflict! It'd do the other user groups some good to know that there are just some really lame people on bikes but a lot of others who are following the rules and just as pissed off at these few bad apples.


    BTW: You think there is a description of the guy from the last post down at the police station? I'm trying to picture how the sketch artist captured said piss pot helmet.
    Last edited by Guyechka; 06-24-2010 at 01:29 AM.

  19. #19
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    You should tell your Mommy and Daddy. I bet your Dad can take his.

    Just accept an apology and move on. Accidents happen.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    Riders are happy that on even days they feel a little more relaxed that they might forget and do the wrong thing.
    What?!? That has got to be one of the most Orwellian statements I've ever read.

    Arbeit Macht Frei?

    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaydude
    Another reason why I love the Springs. Way less user conflict.

    Last night I passed two hikers the whole 2hr ride..
    SSSSSHhhhhhhh! Don't encourage people to visit the springs....

    Anyways, crap like that happens here too. I nearly crashed into another biker, or he nearly crashed into me as we both went around a blind curve, downhill into a flat section for both of us. I stopped and he ended up in the bushes. I was going my normal pace, which is crazy slow, he was going slightly faster, but I wouldn't call it out of control. He just needed more than 5 feet to slow down.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    What?!? That has got to be one of the most Orwellian statements I've ever read.

    Arbeit Macht Frei?

    I think my grammar / sentence formation was a little wrong.

    The comments were that on the even days they don't have to contend with as many hikers and that most of the hikers know to stay off the faster trails. They are also more aware that bikers will greatly outnumber them It's still not an excuse to blow by them, but it does reduce the possibility of a problem.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dose
    You should tell your Mommy and Daddy. I bet your Dad can take his.

    Just accept an apology and move on. Accidents happen.
    Yes, accidents happen.

    Stupidity, on the other hand, must be actively created. Riding so fast that you can not stop if you come upon [another rider/hiker/animal] is stupid. It's VERY stupid on a trail that you know is busy and has lots of said riders/hikers/animals on it and you still think you're the center of the world.

    It's also stupid to condone and/or justify the stupid behavior by belittling those who are concerned about it.

    What's the difference between rear ending someone on your bike or in your car? Think you'd just move on or would you call the cops, get their insurance info and perhaps even call an attorney?

  24. #24
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    The guy was "All Apologies" according to the OP. It is a little judgemental to think I condone or justify the accident. It seems that there are a lot of angry Front Rangers puffing up their chests these days who need to let things go a little.

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    You never here the other side to these types of stories, I wonder where they post ?

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    I'm sure the kid learned his lesson if he felt guilty enough to be that apologetic. I'm sure this incident will slow him down a little and make him more cautious. It's the ones that don't give a damn you should worry about.

  27. #27
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    I get the "accidents happen, move on" argument, but being run into from behind? Seems like an odd circumstance to me ... one I've never heard of anyway. Not knowing the specifics, I agree that it's hard to judge ... despite the advantage of internet-Monday-morning-QB-omnipotent-supreme being mojo and all that

    While Apex has received the lion's share of attention, it seems to represent what's happening on all of our over-crowded front range trails - There are too many people enjoying our trails to let common sense and common courtesy be replaced by totalitarian rules and bureaucracy.

    I had the opportunity to take 3 9-year-old's riding at Elk Meadow yesterday (trying to build on our next generation of MTB'ers )
    We started the ride with coach's "2 minute safety talk" (i coach them in basketball too) which focussed mainly on proper yeilding/keep single track single/respect the trail/HAVE FUN. For a Tuesday, we encountered an expected amount of traffic and, on more than one occasion, we had hikers/runners offer to let us go ahead. As we insisted that they proceed and let them know that "I'm training some young mountainbikers in proper trail etiquette", every one of the hikers/runners were extremely friendly and complimentary.
    My point: "Take the high road", "be the better person", "turn the other cheek" ... pick your cliche'...
    there seems to be a large number of threads focussed on trail user conflict and how angry people are getting over it. My thinking is, if you're still carrying that stuff around with you after an otherwise enjoyable ride ... enough so that you feel compelled to post about it to a group of like-minded enthusiasts, you just might be missing the " big picture" of why we choose to ride in the first place ...
    Disclaimer: I'm a pacifist by nature and at 6'7"/250 lbs, I avoid confrontation based on my physical appearance alone
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  28. #28
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    Yep, idiots all over. Great idea to post so we know what is going on. Your chi will be fine even carrying it around inside till posted.

  29. #29
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    This could have been prevented. The OP needed to have a bashguard and his leg would have been fine. Obviously you didn't have the right type of bike to ride apex if you had a big ring on your bike and a front derailleur. Get it right next time and you'll come out of the situation with better results.

  30. #30
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    Anybody else think that some of these single poster usernames starting threads about Chimney Gulch and Apex could be trolls?

    They're probably big gov PR at work....

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drop the Seat
    Anybody else think that some of these single poster usernames starting threads about Chimney Gulch and Apex could be trolls?

    They're probably big gov PR at work....
    Why would you think that? I was working the NCOs trailer when the op reported the incident. It was him and three of his friends.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    I think my grammar / sentence formation was a little wrong.

    The comments were that on the even days they don't have to contend with as many hikers and that most of the hikers know to stay off the faster trails. They are also more aware that bikers will greatly outnumber them It's still not an excuse to blow by them, but it does reduce the possibility of a problem.
    I agree with this and the new trails aren't even finished yet....I think once the new trails are completed the park is going to have a much better flow to it. Also there will be more options to avoid the main gut of the lower Apex trail which I personally think is pretty beat and too crowded. For me the changes aren't a big deal since I enter Apex from Chimney Gulch and pretty much always climb up Sluicebox anyway. Last night I only saw a handful of people in Apex....pretty nice.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamprince
    So last night I’m enjoying a ride up Chimney and down Enchanted Forest/Apex. As I begin the initial downhill descent on Apex (immediately after Sluicebox) I hear brakes locking up behind me and the next thing I know I’m on the ground with blood coming out of my knee. As I get up I realize that the back of my calf is also bloodied after being grazed by my big ring during the takedown. As I’m taking inventory to make sure I’m able to ride out I turn around to see where my bike is and who hit me. The rider was all apologies of course and was wearing full knee/shin pads and came out of the accident without a scratch.

    So what’s the point, well accidents will happen, however, in this case the accident was caused by a rider that was flying down Apex without any regard for anyone that might have the misfortune of being in his way. There are two possible mindsets that caused this accident:

    1) The rider did see me, was in control, and without saying a word was going to try and pass me on the outside because he couldn’t be bothered to slow down.
    2) The rider was out of control, came around a blind spot in the trail and plowed into another rider.

    I’m leaning toward the latter, but either case is completely unacceptable and this is exactly the kind of selfish and ignorant riding style that is going to result in high traffic areas like Apex being shut down to bikers. If this collision happens between a biker/influential hiker, we’re going to see more than odd day restrictions on sections of trail at Apex.

    As I made my way back down to the parking lot two rangers were there, I reported the rider and provided a description of him. They were both very concerned and we talked about the Apex shuttler that had been discussed in the past few days here on mtbr as well as other recent incidents that they cited including a deaf man being run off of the trail by a downhiller because he didn’t hear the rider approach as well as a pregnant woman that was run off of a trail again by a downhiller who was apparently shredding too much front range gnar to be bothered to slow down. I’ve been mountain biking the front range regularly for over 10 years and 99.9% of the people I encounter on the trail are cool and just happy to be out. But dude, WTF, why are you riding out of control on such a busy trail, you’re lucky I wasn’t seriously injured. To the other 99.9% of you, carry on and keep riding like little Fonzies out there. And whats Fonzie like? He’s cool and that’s what we’re gonna be. We’re gonna be cool.

    So it sounds like you just started on the trail, did you look up trail before pushing onto the main trail, or did you just start pedaling out, essentially pulling out in front of the guy?

    He did apologize, and made sure you were okay. Lots of stones getting cast. There are people who simply descend faster than others, that does not make them downhillers/shuttlers/etc. using your favorite "XC" trail. It seems to me that some folks believe XC only includes climbing. Fortunately, that is not the case. In fact, I seem to remember an article by a prominant rider (think Tomac) that stated that a lot of cross country races are actually won on descents by riders that are able to relax more and therefore recover better. The parallel assumption was that most racers can climb abd ride flats at the same pace.

    In any event, accept the apology if it was sincere, if not, you should have confronted the guy there and explained to him your issues.

    I wonder if the guy that saw me go OTB on apex with my seatpost dropped thought (good, that DHer got what he deserved since I was riding a Giant Reign X (A simple Giro hex helmet and no pads (unless you count my camelback which saved my back)...never mind that I climbed up on my bike and simply lowered my seat for a more fun and safe (guess it didn't work) descent. He certainly didn't stop to make sure I was alright even though I was bloody as hell and could hardly walk and he had dismounted to walk the previous section. Probably should of turned him in for lack of concern for his fellow rider, based on some of the threads I see...

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCR1
    So it sounds like you just started on the trail, did you look up trail before pushing onto the main trail, or did you just start pedaling out, essentially pulling out in front of the guy?
    I didnt pull out in front of the guy. Me and my riding buddy sat at the Apex/Sluicebox junction and debated whether to go up Sluicebox or down Apex for awhile and had a quick conversation with the mtn bike patrol volunteer that rode up past us. We decided take Apex because that meant we could enjoy a frosty post ride beverage a little sooner and get home before it got too late. Point is, we were actually stopped and knew who was coming up and down the trail behind us...it was wide open when we headed down Apex.

    Anyway, I'm sure he is truly sorry, it would have made me feel horrible to hit someone else regardless of who was at fault. I'm riding next chance I can get, so no (permanent) harm no foul.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnauzers
    I think some of you are being a bit too negative. Things are going very well at Apex. There are much fewer complaints and riders are not feeling disenfranchised. Actually, it's quite opposite. Riders are happy that on even days they feel a little more relaxed that they might forget and do the wrong thing.

    If you look back at previous Apex posts, I was very negative about changes. Remember, I felt (and still do to some extent) that any restrictions are bad restrictions. However, given the crowded nature of the trails (especially Apex), The "management plan" is actually working.

    As for biker on biker conflicts, that rests on our shoulders to fix. When there are conflicts within the same user group, the problems lie much deeper and most of the time it is lack of education on etiquette. It's time for us to step up to the plate.
    I still ride Apex fairly frequently, still have very few conflicts there when I ride. I am always happy to be on my bike, so I'm friendly towards the people I encounter, no matter what user group they belong to that day.

    And I definitely feel disenfranchised.
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  36. #36
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    Any mountain biker that causes a crash should be required to wear the official Orange Dunce Half-lid™ for a period not less than one week.

  37. #37
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    Sorry to hear you were run over. I sounds like it was an accident and the guy was sorry, but I don't really care to judge. I'm just glad he didn't run over a hiker. We don't really need any bad press...especially at Apex.

    Personally, I realize mountain biking can be dangerous, and choose to accept that accidents can happen. I also understand your frustration, but at the same time think if the guy was truly sorry, and you in fact feel it was an accident, then it probably isn't completely necessary to post that you were run over. This stuff apparently gets people a little worked up. Who know's, maybe I'd be posting if it happened to me?

    I'm already on the lookout for a "punk" rider on Chimney, and now I'm on the lookout for this full geared DHer. I don't really want to see a post next week about how I kung foo'd the wrong guy who fit one of these descriptions because I read a couple of posts the previous week and other posters said I would be a pu$$y if I didn't man up....yadda, yadda, yadda. What to do?

    Anyone want to ride tonight? Thinking maybe the cone after work. The good news it's not really shuttle worthy, the bad news is it is full of blind corners and multidirectional. I've had a few run ins where I wasn't sure if I was the victim, or the perp. Who wants to risk it?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter
    Any mountain biker that causes a crash should be required to wear the official Orange Dunce Half-lidô for a period not less than one week.
    Agreed! Wait, so who caused the crash? I want to hear the other guys story.

    Would someone just admit you crashed with this guy and tell your side. The mob is turning a bit, so now is your chance.

  39. #39
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    time for rear-view mirrors

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebry74
    I'm already on the lookout for a "punk" rider on Chimney, and now I'm on the lookout for this full geared DHer.
    umm... to be fair, all the guy mentioned was shin pads, he mentioned no body armor, full face, or even the usual menacing look, definitely not a full on DH rider.

    Plus, real DH riders wouldn't apologize for running over the weak!
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    umm... to be fair, all the guy mentioned was shin pads, he mentioned no body armor, full face, or even the usual menacing look, definitely not a full on DH rider.

    He was probably just riding home after soccer practice

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    umm... to be fair, all the guy mentioned was shin pads, he mentioned no body armor, full face, or even the usual menacing look, definitely not a full on DH rider.

    Plus, real DH riders wouldn't apologize for running over the weak!
    I just assumed since the guy was wearing shin guards going too fast and out of control and having just run this guy over he must be a DHer. I didn't realize someone was going to be fair.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    Plus, real DH riders wouldn't apologize for running over the weak!
    And apologizing shows weakness. Definitely not DH. The guy was probably one of those pansy "all mountain" riders you keep hearing about.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

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    Plus, real DH riders wouldn't apologize for running over the weak!=COMEDY GOLD
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  45. #45
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    Ditto

    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    I still ride Apex fairly frequently, still have very few conflicts there when I ride. I am always happy to be on my bike, so I'm friendly towards the people I encounter, no matter what user group they belong to that day.

    And I definitely feel disenfranchised.
    Ditto.

  46. #46
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    That really sucks. Often times, you just can't fix stupid. You, me, JCOS, COMBA, IMBA and everyone else can try - and can have some success and influence on many, many people - but sometimes it just can't be done.

    I would have had to do all in my power not to kick this guy's a$$ and leave him for the mountain lions. Great job being civil. Props on your controlling yourself and not giving mountainbikers an even worse reputation. Karma will come back on this tool.

    Violence is not the answer - but sometimes it just feels good.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamprince
    So last night Iím enjoying a ride up Chimney and down Enchanted Forest/Apex. As I begin the initial downhill descent on Apex (immediately after Sluicebox) I hear brakes locking up behind me and the next thing I know Iím on the ground with blood coming out of my knee. As I get up I realize that the back of my calf is also bloodied after being grazed by my big ring during the takedown. As Iím taking inventory to make sure Iím able to ride out I turn around to see where my bike is and who hit me. The rider was all apologies of course and was wearing full knee/shin pads and came out of the accident without a scratch.
    Yep, Jeffco is completely ignorant with the fact that they will create MORE conflicts by squeezing our access.

    Sorry about he accident.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by enduroslrider
    That really sucks. Often times, you just can't fix stupid. You, me, JCOS, COMBA, IMBA and everyone else can try - and can have some success and influence on many, many people - but sometimes it just can't be done.

    I would have had to do all in my power not to kick this guy's a$$ and leave him for the mountain lions. Great job being civil. Props on your controlling yourself and not giving mountainbikers an even worse reputation. Karma will come back on this tool.

    Violence is not the answer - but sometimes it just feels good.
    Yeah, I'm usually really quick to kick a guys butt after he offers numerous sincere apologes myself.

    It was an accident. Apologies were offered and I read that no serious injuries occurred.
    Some real ambiguity in this thread. OP came on wound up because he had an accident with another biker, says he felt the apologies were sincere, but still sought out a ranger to turn the guy in for something (riding his bike faster than maybe he should of...great, now they will impose speed limits and start ticketing), then says "Anyway, I'm sure he is truly sorry, it would have made me feel horrible to hit someone else regardless of who was at fault. I'm riding next chance I can get, so no (permanent) harm no foul."

    Now there are people wanting to beat every other descending rider up because they don't like the level of protection they choose to wear.

    If we want to see the risk to losing the trail systems we have...the mirror looks like a great place to start. I have been away from the bicycle scene for a while, but it definately hasn't progressed in this respect.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    And apologizing shows weakness. Definitely not DH. The guy was probably one of those pansy "all mountain" riders you keep hearing about.
    I'm pretty sure that was him!!!

    I saw one of those all mountain guys wearing shin pads once... I'm gonna kick his ass next time I see him.


    Man, lots of internet ass kicking going on in the last couple weeks... the front range is a violent place!! Thank goodness I live in peaceful Dumont, hopefully I'm safe up here cause I'll be tossing on some shin guards this afternoon & I'd hate to get clotheslined or fishhooked for my choices in fashion!!
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    I'm pretty sure that was him!!!

    I saw one of those all mountain guys wearing shin pads once... I'm gonna kick his ass next time I see him.


    Man, lots of internet ass kicking going on in the last couple weeks... the front range is a violent place!! Thank goodness I live in peaceful Dumont, hopefully I'm safe up here cause I'll be tossing on some shin guards this afternoon & I'd hate to get clotheslined or fishhooked for my choices in fashion!!
    You live in Dumont and you're worried about a bunch of bikers? I'm surprised you're not hardened all the way up just getting out of the trailer park each morning!

    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    You live in Dumont and you're worried about a bunch of bikers? I'm surprised you're not hardened all the way up just getting out of the trailer park each morning!

    Hey man, mine is the nicest trailer in the row!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  52. #52
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    Wow, I actually spent time reading another Apex sob thread. Seriously? Stop riding APEX or get used to hostile encounters. Why does it continue to surprise people when this stuff happens on that narrow, blind and overcrowded trail? I too enjoy riding Apex but I understand the war zone I'm going into when I do ride it.

  53. #53
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    Sry to hear so many incidents taking place on APEX. It's probably going to make it more crappy. Either way, I had my first ride this season on APEX on Sunday morning between 7-9am and it went excellent. Saw all the new signs "signs-signs,everywhere.-_-," and went about my way. It was an ODD day so I couldn't go down Enchanted so I road up it for the first time. Not the greatest ride up but the trees help keep things cool. I noticed they destroyed that cool little jump on the right side of enchanted that was formed off a stump after the small berm. Kinda sucks but go figure. I'm just happy I can still go down Enchanted on Even days.. Correct?? Hope it stays conflict free for me. Except for the snake that I had to bunny hop no issues and still an excellent/close FR trail!

    In the meantime it's hard to believe that APEX remains infamous for DH/shuttlers.

  54. #54
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    I haven't been on Apex for years. It's now actually required to go UP Enchanted Forest on certain days? I had more fun going up than down. I think of that as a positive!
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  55. #55
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    its funny that i read this after my yearly NW trip.. While it sucks and sorry it happened, the reality is that mtn biking has evolved and the trails in the Denver area have not.. Look at the stuff in Jackson, WY on PUBLIC land, its directional and there are big features and small features and you can go around the features..

    Our state is so far behind the times it kills me.. I don't even want to ride a bike anymore on our over-used, unprogressive, lame trails.. (thats just the beer talking)

    (and by the way, I do pedal, lots, and I am old)
    BBZ

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  56. #56
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    Well at least you have trails to ride on.

    F**k Boulder County Parks and Open Space!

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip:30
    Well at least you have trails to ride on.

    F**k Boulder County Parks and Open Space!
    Clueless comment of the day!

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider
    Clueless comment of the day!
    Why's that?

    I hate almost every trail that is on BCOPS. Been here for a decade. Open space "trails" here are wide, flat, and smooth, they feel like a road ride to me, and are just another example of excessive control within Boulder County.

    Not saying there's not good riding in the county, but just not on city or county open space. And pretty much jack sh*t you can ride to from town after work now that my old stand by was just destroyed by the county after they purchased the land. I can practically drive my car on the new trail they're building to "replace" it. BASTARDS!
    Last edited by Rip:30; 06-30-2010 at 02:14 PM.

  59. #59
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    Picture rock is wide? Walker ranch is flat? Hall ranch is smooth?
    Work done at Heil in the past year has made it narrower and twistier.

    The Benjamin property could have been sold to a private owner and shut down to you entirely. Would you prefer that?

    Anyways, if you want to try to drive your car down this be my guest.
    <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/5BUT_jJXyBwtLwKIhrH5fw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_exYKWiGi4ds/TA5uDO8akXI/AAAAAAAABjI/94DG3zuAb2Y/s800/100_1545.JPG" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/BrianRFW/NTD652010?feat=embedwebsite">NTD 6-5-2010</a></td></tr></table>

  60. #60
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    I'll bet Rip wears a "thug" helmet.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider
    Picture rock is wide? Walker ranch is flat? Hall ranch is smooth?
    Work done at Heil in the past year has made it narrower and twistier.

    The Benjamin property could have been sold to a private owner and shut down to you entirely. Would you prefer that?

    Anyways, if you want to try to drive your car down this be my guest.
    <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/5BUT_jJXyBwtLwKIhrH5fw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_exYKWiGi4ds/TA5uDO8akXI/AAAAAAAABjI/94DG3zuAb2Y/s800/100_1545.JPG" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/BrianRFW/NTD652010?feat=embedwebsite">NTD 6-5-2010</a></td></tr></table>
    Picture rock is flat and not that great (yes, I volunteered on it though). Walker and Hall are ok, but were built long ago. No new trails will ever resemble them under the current policies. Look at the pic you posted, every rock has been removed and they took their mini-road grader through there. Lame sauce--a waste of money and makes for crappy riding. Save the money and keep the trail real.

    Is there anywhere I mentioned not agreeing with land conservation? Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm very glad Boulder County is not more developed then it is. Both open spaces seem to exist primarily for the conservation of land as wildlife habitat. I don't think the Benjamin property purchase had much to do with mtn biking or any type of recreation for that matter?

    My point is that they could allow riding on all/most the existing open space trails like JeffCo. Make 'em multi-use, f-all the elitist "hikers" in town--learn how to share guys. Also when they build new trails they don't need to be less then 5% in grade (where is the evidence that this really prevents erosion?) and they don't need to take out every rock on the trail.
    Last edited by Rip:30; 06-30-2010 at 02:16 PM.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    I'll bet Rip wears a "thug" helmet.
    haha, i don't even know what that is?

    i'll take it as a compliment of sorts. maybe?

    ya, i'm feeling a little salty b/c i can't ride on my so called vacay, so excuse any excess bluster. but seriously, there's some major pent up frustration with b.c. trails. the contrast to jeffco is striking, i wish i had a pic of mustang or longhorn @ white ranch to compare to the new stuff being built in boco.
    Last edited by Rip:30; 06-30-2010 at 02:16 PM.

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    A real trail, courtesy of JeffCo Open Space.

    Ok so the car thing is a little overstated, but could and will ride my cross bike on that new Benjamin trail.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip:30
    haha, i don't even know what that is?

    i'll take it as a compliment of sorts. maybe?

    ya, i'm feeling a little salty b/c i can't ride on my so called vacay, so excuse any excess bluster. but seriously, there's some major pent up frustration with b.c. trials. the contrast to jeffco is striking, i wish i had a pic of mustang or longhorn @ white ranch to compare to the new stuff being built in boco.
    Well, then I reckin you best just ride Jeffco more. Either that or get a bike with less suspension. A ridged SS can make any trail exciting.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip:30
    Open space "trials" here are wide, flat, and smooth, they feel like a road ride to me, and are just another example of excessive control within Boulder County.
    I haven't ridden all that much in Boulder, and appreciate any trail that's open to bikes, but gotta admit I've seen what you're talking about. The weirdest though imo has to be the elaborate retraining rock walls on the bottom sections of Heil. It looks like a landscaper designed the trail and feels like you're riding in a fancypants subdivision.

    Odd. To me, anyway.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Well, then I reckin you best just ride Jeffco more. Either that or get a bike with less suspension. A ridged SS can make any trail exciting.
    A lot of Boulder folk do go down to JeffCo to ride, which only adds to the issues that the OP presented--sorry to hear that mate BTW, mtn biking seems inherently conflict prone due to the wide variance in speeds at which people use trails. I really enjoy going fast down onetrack, but I would never run anyone over. Adjust speed for the amount of space you see you have to slow down. Basic tenet of mtn biking.

    That boulder open space policies encourage people to burn gas to go ride in other counties or build erosion prone social trails is pretty ironic considering their hardcore conservation/sustainability stances. I love also how they drive a cadre of giant trucks to go do their trail "manicuring" and then park them all over the vegetation b/c they are too lazy to walk or ride from the parking lot. More Boulder hypocrisy.
    Last edited by Rip:30; 06-30-2010 at 02:16 PM.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    I haven't ridden all that much in Boulder, and appreciate any trail that's open to bikes, but gotta admit I've seen what you're talking about. The weirdest though imo has to be the elaborate retraining rock walls on the bottom sections of Heil. It looks like a landscaper designed the trail and feels like you're riding in a fancypants subdivision.

    Odd. To me, anyway.
    Exactly, that's the aesthetic element I dislike. You see it in the parking lots, but continues though the entire ride/hike (on some trails). O.S. calls much of the trail system the "back-country", but McMansion subdivision is more like it.

    I guess debt control austerity measures have not yet swept though Boulder.

    You may not remember, but they also dug out thousands of rocks from the original Heil trail. Pointless.
    Last edited by Rip:30; 06-30-2010 at 02:15 PM.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip:30
    You may not remember, but they also dug out thousands of rocks from the original Heil trail. Pointless.
    Perhaps I'm misguided in this comment, but it seems to me that this would just increase the incidents of user conflict as well, by speeding up the mtn bike traffic. I would think a slow technical trail would be less likely to have problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    I would think a slow technical trail would be less likely to have problems.
    For some reason, OS managers in many counties seem to have serious trouble grasping that concept...

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    For some reason, OS managers in many counties seem to have serious trouble grasping that concept...
    Well... it's pretty complex. I can understand the difficulty.in comprehension.

    I would assume the idea is to get ALL the gapers on the trail with their Kmart bikes, we wouldn't want to exclude people now would we...?
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip:30

    A real trail, courtesy of JeffCo Open Space.


    I just regurged my last sip of tea on that one

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    I was going to write a lengthy response but why bother arguing with people that just make stuff up.
    Please be my guest and don't ride Boulder county trails. Drive south and enjoy the epic majesty of Jeffco trails such as White ranch.



    Edit: I searched for pictures of Mustang that you wanted but I could only find shots of some wooden ramps. Obviously not what you were talking about.
    Last edited by Moustache rider; 06-30-2010 at 09:14 AM.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider
    I was going to write a lengthy response but why bother arguing with people that just make stuff up.
    Please be my guest and don't ride Boulder county trails. Drive south and enjoy the epic majesty of Jeffco trails such as White ranch.
    What did I make up? Nice argument BTW: "I'm so knowledgeable, I can't even talk to you. But I can still tell you you're wrong." Weak.

    In general JeffCo trails are steeper and narrower compared to BoCo trails, which is my preference. There are also more miles of trails in JeffCo. Disagree? Not saying they're perfect, but it's better than BoCo.

    Also, that pic you posted is obviously a really wide part at WR, but it leads to some pretty schweet ripping stuff once you go back up and down again... Longhorn is an awesome descent by any standards IMHO, if it's not your cup of tea no worries, but I'm not making anything up.
    Last edited by Rip:30; 06-30-2010 at 09:31 AM.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR


    I just regurged my last sip of tea on that one
    Standards aren't very high when you live near Marshall Mesa.


  75. #75
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    Things Rip:30 has made up:

    "Picture rock is flat"
    1000 ft of elevation gain from one end to the other.

    "Look at the pic you posted...they took their mini-road grader through there."
    100% built by hand.

    "I don't think the Benjamin property purchase had much to do with mtn biking or any type of recreation for that matter?"
    So why are they using it to double the amount of trail at Betasso?

    "My point is that they could allow riding on all/most the existing open space trials like JeffCo"
    84.7% of Boco trails by mileage are open to bikes.

    "That boulder open space policies encourage people to burn gas to go ride in other counties or build erosion prone social trials"
    Oh boy.

    "they also dug out thousands of rocks from the original Heil trail. Pointless."
    Portions of Heil were rebuilt to be single track again rather than the 4x4 rd it was starting to resemble.

    "steeper and narrower compared to BoCo trails"
    Steeper maybe. Narrower, don't think so.

    "trials"

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip:30
    ... Look at the pic you posted, every rock has been removed and they took their mini-road grader through there. Lame sauce--a waste of money and makes for crappy riding. Save the money and keep the trail real...
    I just want to make a quick comment on this trail photo. It's obvious the trail is brand new. That is as groomed as it will be, and with use and weathering, it won't be that smooth.

    As far as "saving money" to use your words, it tends to be much quicker and more efficient to machine cut trails than to hand dig them.

    HC

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    Things Rip:30 has made up:

    "Picture rock is flat"
    1000 ft of elevation gain from one end to the other.

    --Exaggeration on my part. It switchbacks too much, not steep enough. Why not just have it go down the fall line more?

    "Look at the pic you posted...they took their mini-road grader through there."
    100% built by hand.

    --Wrong, I saw the gas powered flattener machine back there.

    "I don't think the Benjamin property purchase had much to do with mtn biking or any type of recreation for that matter?"

    So why are they using it to double the amount of trail at Betasso?

    --Secondary priority. They bought it b/c it was for sale.

    "My point is that they could allow riding on all/most the existing open space trails like JeffCo"
    84.7% of Boco trails by mileage are open to bikes.

    --Most are walking paths. Extremely misleading figure. How much of Boulder City Open Space Mountain Parks west of Broadway is open (where all the vert is)?

    "That boulder open space policies encourage people to burn gas to go ride in other counties or build erosion prone social trails"

    Oh boy.

    --Ya that's right. Just pointing it out.

    "they also dug out thousands of rocks from the original Heil trail. Pointless."
    Portions of Heil were rebuilt to be single track again rather than the 4x4 rd it was starting to resemble.

    --Well I haven't been up there this year, I'll check it out.

    "steeper and narrower compared to BoCo trails"

    Steeper maybe. Narrower, don't think so.

    --? Well, I respectfully disagree.
    Last edited by Rip:30; 06-30-2010 at 02:19 PM.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip:30

    --Wrong, I saw the gas powered flattener machine back there.
    Bwa ha ha. You should really stop while you are ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider
    Bwa ha ha. You should really stop while you are ahead.
    ^^ I was referring to the tamper thing you guys push around. There's nothing wrong with it, the point is the trail is lame, although perhaps it will improve with time. Less labor would have made a better trail IMO.

    Also how was the top section of cactus ridge "restored" by hand? There's been some major disturbance up there. I assume a bobcat was up there for that amount of destruction. If you guys did it by hand then I stand corrected.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip:30
    Also, that pic you posted is obviously a really wide part at WR
    The reason that part of the trail is so wide is that it's pretty technical (for newbies and rec riders), and they all ride around it rather than walking it if it's too difficult. Making it wider and wider every year.
    That is part of the reason why O.S. (in Jeffco and Boulder Co) tend to make trails so buff. (IMHO - of course).
    Old Codger

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    The Canycom. Essentially a powered wheelbarrow. It doesn't dig and doesn't tamp.


    Closure of the old trails was done by a different organization. Take a look at the pictures. I only see hand tools.
    http://wlrv.net/colorado/index.cfm?f...ry&eventid=428
    If it looks like "destruction" to you it's probably because the project is not completed.

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    JeffCo "manicures" the trails too.. just finished riding DR/MW only to find a new section of trail that had most of its rocks removed.. great.. just makes you go faster doesn't it??

    you can argue over the Jeffco/Boulder thing all you want but the reality is that neither are up with the times on trailbuilding and the state of mtn biking in general.
    BBZ

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  83. #83
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    How slow are you to get hit from behind?
    Keep the Country country.

  84. #84
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    ^ this

  85. #85
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    Hey Rip, go get some permethrin and ride Lion Gulch. Sounds like your cup of tea.

    And yes, waaa waaa, burn that gas. If you're worried about capt. planet squirting colgate in your eyes, then make some friends, and then get them to carpool with you.

  86. #86
    I think I can.
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    OK, wheres the trail

    The picture is a great example of what not to do. Are you trying to say riding over the log or other obstacles is ideal situation, I could drive my subaru down that trail, wheres the single track .



    Maybe you should start by getting the water off the trail and using rocks instead of wood, just an idea

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider
    Closure of the old trails was done by a different organization.
    I'd be interested to know who they hire to do this and what it cost us taxpayers? It seems like a lot of effort to keep me from having some good clean fun up there. Admittedly there was some erosion issues and of course O.S. couldn't sanction a trail that starts on private property (yes I have permission from owners to pass through). But it was an emotional loss for some of us who have been riding the Arkansas Mountain trails for almost a decade now.

    Ok ending my rant now.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt
    How slow are you to get hit from behind?
    We could suggest a rear view mirror that attaches to his helmet, but he probably already has one.

  89. #89
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    I'm really confused with this thread. Is this a scam to increase Rip:30's thread count?

    Don't get me wrong, I like scams. weeds out the weak
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  90. #90
    imaorobbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider
    The Canycom. Essentially a powered wheelbarrow. It doesn't dig and doesn't tamp.


    Closure of the old trails was done by a different organization. Take a look at the pictures. I only see hand tools.
    http://wlrv.net/colorado/index.cfm?f...ry&eventid=428
    If it looks like "destruction" to you it's probably because the project is not completed.
    This thing has a payload of 1000# and weighs nearly that much. I fail to see how it doesn't tamp the ground? I've seen dirt jumps that are tamped with rolling a bike over the jump repeatedly making a nearly lithified surface. In fact, walking tamps the ground. The laws of physics are absolute.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOEMTBR COLORADO
    The picture is a great example of what not to do. Are you trying to say riding over the log or other obstacles is ideal situation, I could drive my subaru down that trail, wheres the single track .



    Maybe you should start by getting the water off the trail and using rocks instead of wood, just an idea
    "They" didn't do this. Riders did this. The logs are both for shunting water and riders. Hopefully noobs who can't handle riding down/up the steps (off to the left in this photo) would find the logs even more disagreeable. If you can't hack it, just walk it. They'd need some pretty big rocks and fresh grass to keep me from thinking it was the alternate "technical" route. What I see there conveys perfectly, at least to me, "hey, we intentionally put this here so maybe you wouldn't ride over here"

    Why am I the only one who gets and reads the memos?

  92. #92
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    RIP please stop saying trial, it hurts my head to read it.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by imaorobbie
    This thing has a payload of 1000# and weighs nearly that much. I fail to see how it doesn't tamp the ground? I've seen dirt jumps that are tamped with rolling a bike over the jump repeatedly making a nearly lithified surface. In fact, walking tamps the ground. The laws of physics are absolute.
    Jesusfukinchrist. A fruit fly tamps the ground if you want to get all "laws of physics" on my sorry black ass. Someone called it a "gas powered flattener machine" which it clearly is not.
    With the large surface area of the tracks it surely has a lower psi than your fat ass. Yes, I can tell you have a fat ass from your typing. Pulling assumptions from your sphincter seems to be the trend of the day so I'm doing it too.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt
    How slow are you to get hit from behind?
    I'd phrase the question this way: "how fast and out of control do you need ride in order to hit someone from behind."

  95. #95
    imaorobbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moustache rider
    Jesusfukinchrist. A fruit fly tamps the ground if you want to get all "laws of physics" on my sorry black ass. Someone called it a "gas powered flattener machine" which it clearly is not.
    With the large surface area of the tracks it surely has a lower psi than your fat ass. Yes, I can tell you have a fat ass from your typing. Pulling assumptions from your sphincter seems to be the trend of the day so I'm doing it too.
    I'm sorry I offended you by pointing out the errors in your logic. Let's go ride bikes? Or did you want to turn that into a dick-wagging contest, too?

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip:30
    I'd be interested to know who they hire to do this and what it cost us taxpayers? It seems like a lot of effort to keep me from having some good clean fun up there. Admittedly there was some erosion issues and of course O.S. couldn't sanction a trail that starts on private property (yes I have permission from owners to pass through). But it was an emotional loss for some of us who have been riding the Arkansas Mountain trails for almost a decade now.

    Ok ending my rant now.
    Dude those trails were no good anyways. They were one giant skidfest all the way down through a bunch of cactus fields. Whatever we end up with over there will be an improvement for sure.

  97. #97
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    Your Right

    I don't have the skills to ride any of that supper highway but if you think that is perfect trail then I would have to agree with the land manager in that are and say that trail needs to be closed.
    Yes I am messin with ya, just pointing out that that trail is not being managed properly, have fun on that single track

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokothemonkey
    Dude those trails were no good anyways. They were one giant skidfest all the way down through a bunch of cactus fields.
    let off your brakes

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokothemonkey
    Dude those trails were no good anyways. They were one giant skidfest all the way down through a bunch of cactus fields. Whatever we end up with over there will be an improvement for sure.
    Don't blame the trail when it's your hand that's grabbing too much brake. Just joshin ya. Sorry about my lysdexia too, that's pretty pathetic on my part.

    Yep, it was pretty steep up there. That's what I loved about it. And rocks, shoots, and roots. And no hikers. And one way riding traffic. And I could ride from my house and be back in 2.5 hours. Oh well can't live in the past. Plenty of other good stuff to ride whether you like groomers, the sickness, or anything in-between. Thank god for national forest in BoCo. Have fun out there fools.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamprince
    I'd phrase the question this way: "how fast and out of control do you need to ride in order to hit someone from behind."
    That depends on how fast the rider in front is going of course. It sounds like he was nearly stopped on a downhill. If it was around a blind turn and the surface was loose the answer to your question is, medium fast and up.
    Keep the Country country.

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