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  1. #1
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    Apex Flood Damage Photos - Closure to continue well into 2014

    There was a guided tour conducted by JCOS staff this morning, to view the extent and nature of the flood damage at Apex Park.

    The damage has to be seen to be believed. It is expected that repairs and reconstruction will begin next year. The complete assessment and general plan for moving forward will likely be done in the next few months. But it is known that the significant nature of the work which needs to be done, not to mention the sheer volume, will require materials and equipment which is not going to be allowed to weather and degrade under the snow over the winter. Significant work is not expected to begin until spring.

    Patience will be required. This isn't going to get fixed any time soon.

    In addition to the numerous examples of damage one might expect after a significant rain event, there are at least 5 places on Apex trail proper which evoke that "Oh... wow..." reaction. See a couple examples below.

    20 photos can be seen here: Apex Flood Damage Tour - 2013.10.24 - a set on Flickr

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/78846706@N05/10465568984/" title="Apex Flood Damage by Mini crew, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3826/10465568984_8966f8df7c.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Apex Flood Damage"></a>
    Doesn't look like such a big hole ...


    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/78846706@N05/10465567874/" title="Apex Flood Damage by Mini crew, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7324/10465567874_0c89b56b50.jpg" width="500" height="205" alt="Apex Flood Damage"></a>
    ... until you are down in it, looking back up at the trail.


    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/78846706@N05/10465566436/" title="Apex Flood Damage by Mini crew, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/10465566436_dbe2f4d51c.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="Apex Flood Damage"></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/78846706@N05/10465565096/" title="Apex Flood Damage by Mini crew, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7355/10465565096_dbedb5f12b.jpg" width="500" height="248" alt="Apex Flood Damage"></a>

  2. #2
    oot & aboot in Colorado
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    Thanks for sharing your photos; it helps to see the scope of the mess.

    Holes like that are part of what make the 401 trail in CB so much fun!


  3. #3
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    Hole'y hell thats nuts

  4. #4
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    Eh, just bunny hop it
    .




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  5. #5
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    Whoa! That's some serious damage. Didn't realize it was so bad. How bad is Enchanted Forest? Guess I won't be going there anytime soon. Thx for the update.

  6. #6
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    Mother nature is so environmentally unfriendly at times.
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  7. #7
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    A few wood skinnies heading up and some gap jumps coming down - problem solved
    BBZ

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  8. #8
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    I get there is a lot of damage but I don't see why they need to completely close the park. Even if trails are unrideable, they are hikeable. Let people deal with it however they want. It's nature.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I get there is a lot of damage but I don't see why they need to completely close the park. Even if trails are unrideable, they are hikeable. Let people deal with it however they want. It's nature.
    Unfortunately people will start making their own paths to get around the damage rather than hike through it and "crowd sourced" trails aren't necessarily the most sustainable.

  10. #10
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    That's it? seriously. Mini-x a few days of hard work and it's good as new.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71 View Post
    Mother nature is so environmentally unfriendly at times.
    ...or is it the beauty of Mother Nature at work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by liqwid View Post
    Unfortunately people will start making their own paths to get around the damage rather than hike through it and "crowd sourced" trails aren't necessarily the most sustainable.

    I suppose that's sort of a good excuse, kind of.

    I think it's a bit ridiculous to take a year on this though. And to not do any work until spring? Sheesh. There are plenty of workable days during the winter that they could be making progress on it, while there is less demand for the park.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I suppose that's sort of a good excuse, kind of.

    I think it's a bit ridiculous to take a year on this though. And to not do any work until spring? Sheesh. There are plenty of workable days during the winter that they could be making progress on it, while there is less demand for the park.
    Yeah part of me thinks they're happy to have it shut down for a bit thinking they'll deal with less complaints. But thats what my tinfoil hat tells me.

  14. #14
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    i agree, the time those 20 people spent gawking at the hole coulda been spent shoveling and filling in the holes.

    i do respect that you "gotta see it to believe" kind of things. I just can't fathom how that much water formed rushing rivers like that. . . the top of the mountain above is only a few hundred vertical feet above.

    thanks for sharing. i volunteered yesterday to help at lair o' the bear and was not stoked to be told we were redoing the picnic area at the base of the park. "oh, the trail is fine" said the ranger. so i said. . . "what about apex??" they really have limited staff to help manage the projects and are tying to knock out the easy ones first.

  15. #15
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    Impressive amount of Monday morning quarterbacking around here. Think about it this way - JCOS has an impressive amount of damage to deal with in *ADDITION* to the work that they already had.

    Unless, of course, you assume JCOS is sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post

    Unless, of course, you assume JCOS is sitting around twiddling their thumbs.
    Yes I do imagine this.

    I also imagine that there is all kinds of money laying around to contract this work out.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    <snip>
    I also imagine that there is all kinds of money laying around to contract this work out.
    As a JeffCo county taxpayer... I'm pretty sure this is not the case.

  18. #18
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    What about all the flood relief money? Stimulus money? Let's stimulate the economy and fix that park!!!!

  19. #19
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    Build a kicker, lets go!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia View Post
    A few wood skinnies heading up and some gap jumps coming down - problem solved
    If only the world was so with us, it would be a beautiful place. Like your BF quote too.
    Kona Wo for Fat Biking, Ibis HD3 for Trail Shredding, Merckx Road bike for collecting dust

  21. #21
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    Apex Flood Damage Photos - Closure to continue well into 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    What about all the flood relief money? Stimulus money? Let's stimulate the economy and fix that park!!!!
    Must be a fun time in ignorance land. How does the coffee taste there?

    Apex is near the bottom of the list dude. When Jeffco sends you the email for trail work make sure you respond quick because the tools will get picked up quick by the rest of us.
    99% of the problems and questions posted here would be answered if people actually walked into a bicycle shop and asked

  22. #22
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    ...or is it the beauty of Mother Nature at work?
    No, it's a grand conspiracy of anti bike, anti fun people at JeffCo - They manufactured this to keep bikes out.

  23. #23
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    This is a neighborhood park, after all. How can that be closed for a year? JCOS should provide legal releases and then allow us in. BTW most of the trails are in great shape. Sure the gulch is damaged but that is only a small fraction of the park. I guess being an old timer when back in the day folks accepted reasonable hazards and and didn't just roll over when the man said to.

    The idea about crowd sourcing the repair is a good idea too. I've participated and I am sure many more would too.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71 View Post
    Mother nature is so environmentally unfriendly at times.
    That occurred to me too. JCOS needs to ban mother nature from these trails in order to preserve them from now on. Or at least have them direction for rain on certain days.
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  25. #25
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    The east trailhead at White Ranch is open again. There were a few obvious spots they fixed, and there's a pretty narrow stretch of Shorthorn, but overall in good shape.
    Golden Bike Park

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  26. #26
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    Thanks for sharing the pics. I have a few questions:

    1) Who was invited on this guided tour? I'm just curious because I've asked folks at JCOS specifically if they would do a tour for neighborhood folks.

    2) Did you guys go anywhere but up the gut/ Apex proper? From the aspect of things, every picture you posted appears to be up the main trail/ drainage (Apex Trail). One of my biggest questions has been whether or not there is significant damage elsewhere. If there is only minor damage on Argos/ Pick n Sledge/ Grubstake, that's a significant portion of trail that could be opened much sooner than sometime in 2014. Folks at JCOS have sent me some pictures, but like yours, they all appear to be up the gut. I'm sure there is some damage on the frontside trails, but I would imagine it's not nearly as bad as the damage up the main trail. I'd love to see/ hear a more comprehensive answer to this question.

    Thanks!
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  27. #27
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    the major damage is up the gut in the drainage. there were some minor erosions on some of the switchbacks - but nothing that couldnt be fixed and shored up with a few hrs and a few people... so - everything BUT the gut could be used, but you know what happens - there's always someone and more than one thats gonna run the closed parts... id personally be happy with a 3/4 solution until the rest is fixed.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamper11 View Post
    the major damage is up the gut in the drainage. there were some minor erosions on some of the switchbacks - but nothing that couldnt be fixed and shored up with a few hrs and a few people... so - everything BUT the gut could be used, but you know what happens - there's always someone and more than one thats gonna run the closed parts... id personally be happy with a 3/4 solution until the rest is fixed.
    Kamper- did you get to go up? Or do some exploration before the gates went up?
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  29. #29
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    As I live across the street I went up just after the deluge but before the closure. I was hiking, not biking. The damage is mostly confined to Apex Gulch. Any damage (trail washout) on other trails is minor. Anyway why aren't these trails open to hikers and runners? That's my point. Closure can readily be made as needed where machinery is being used.

    This is a neighborhood park and should not closed without an absolute necessity and then only with broad-based community input.

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    like goldengeezer - was there the day after the mayhem - and hiked up the front side and came back thru the gut

    we were pretty blown away by the carnage up the gut - but the rest was easily repairable and IMO could be opened

  31. #31
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    That's what I've heard from everyone- and thanks for chipping in with the info.

    I've been exchanging some polite e-mails with Tim at JCOS and he said they were still considering the possibility of being able to open the frontside- or a better way to put it is that they haven't given a hard "no"- but that last e-mail was from two weeks ago, before they've had two teams of folks up there to check it out. I sent a follow-up e-mail today and hope to hear back from him sometime- he's been cordial and responsive so far to my inquiries.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  32. #32
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    Apex Flood Damage Photos - Closure to continue well into 2014

    Tuesday, November 19th- JCOS is going to be having a meeting to address Apex and other park plans, etc. There should be more details coming soonish, but put it on your calendar now if you can make it.



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  33. #33
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    Latest from my inbox:

    Thank you for your interest in updates regarding Apex Park. As we work through the repair process to address the flood damage in the park, we will keep you updated on the progress.

    If you were unable to attend our public information meeting on the 19th, we have made the content from the meeting available on our website:

    · Flood Recovery Presentation – The presentation from the public meeting which covers all of our flood-damaged parks, the work completed, the work yet to be done, and FEMA involvement

    · Apex Park Flood Damage Assessment Map – shows damage on trails rated as minor, moderate, and heavy

    · Apex Park FAQ’s

    The content above can be found on the Apex Park page.

    In addition, two new videos were shown at the meeting and can be viewed here:
    Video: Jeffco Open Space Flood Recovery

    Video: Apex Park Flood Damage: A Walking Tour (no sound)

    We have started volunteer days at Apex Park. The first two days will take place the week of Nov. 25th, and were filled by volunteers at the public information meeting. Additional volunteer efforts will become available as weather, staff resources and trail logistics for hauling materials allow.

    Thank you for your patience as we work to address the Apex Park closure. We appreciate your cooperation and respect of the closure for your safety.

  34. #34
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    The map with colors showing trail damage is complete garbage. The orange sections indicating moderate damage have absolutely no damage. Who walked these anyway?
    What criteria did they apply to judge damage? The map is useless as it is entirely inaccurate.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    The map with colors showing trail damage is complete garbage. The orange sections indicating moderate damage have absolutely no damage. Who walked these anyway?
    What criteria did they apply to judge damage? The map is useless as it is entirely inaccurate.
    Those are questions you should send to the people at JCOS. Though, tone down the accusations if you do contact them.

    edit: Read the Apex Park FAQs

  37. #37
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    Whoa! Wait a minute! This is a public park. JCOS isn't Google, WalMart or some other private entity. These people are public employees and work for us, the taxpaying citizens of Jefferson County. I am and will be respectful but demand transparency foremost. Regardless of what JCOS decides to do they should retract the inaccurate map. Apex is a heavily used asset owned by we citizens and now we don't have use of our park for an extended time. Are you satisfied with that?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    Whoa! Wait a minute! This is a public park. JCOS isn't Google, WalMart or some other private entity. These people are public employees and work for us, the taxpaying citizens of Jefferson County. I am and will be respectful but demand transparency foremost. Regardless of what JCOS decides to do they should retract the inaccurate map. Apex is a heavily used asset owned by we citizens and now we don't have use of our park for an extended time. Are you satisfied with that?

    You have to be joking or just trolling.....your posts can't be for real.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGeezer View Post
    Whoa! Wait a minute! This is a public park. JCOS isn't Google, WalMart or some other private entity. These people are public employees and work for us, the taxpaying citizens of Jefferson County. I am and will be respectful but demand transparency foremost. Regardless of what JCOS decides to do they should retract the inaccurate map. Apex is a heavily used asset owned by we citizens and now we don't have use of our park for an extended time. Are you satisfied with that?
    Your viewpoint is myopic and your sense of entitlement is obvious. Stop reading so much between the lines that you miss the point. Yes, the press release is a little lacking in details. However, that does not mean JCOS is obfuscating anything.

    The amount of damage is substantial and requires time to repair, and forethought to prevent such damage in the future.

    Have a little patience. It pays off, I promise.

    In the mean time, go ride somewhere else and use that as a mechanism to get over this closure.

    "There's nothing like a ride to help you reflect and work through your problems, but the fact is that as you do this you don't always like what you find... Some days you're dancing up that climb because things are going your way, and other days you're trudging up it because you're dragging a metaphorical trailer full of hardship, and I'm of the belief that you should embrace all of it." -BSNYC

  40. #40
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    Apex Flood Damage Photos - Closure to continue well into 2014

    If JCOS would accept IMBA help things could probably move faster. But that horse was beaten long ago.

    I agree with others that it's a public-owned entity and while partial closure is acceptable and understandable (such as mustang at WR right now), blanket closure of the entire park is poor management considering the percentage of trails that are unaffected.
    My most brilliant achievement was my ability to pursuade my wife to marry me. - Churchill

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GL1 View Post
    I agree with others that it's a public-owned entity and while partial closure is acceptable and understandable (such as mustang at WR right now), blanket closure of the entire park is poor management considering the percentage of trails that are unaffected.
    The reasoning behind closing the entire park is clearly stated by JCOS. Apex Gulch is the major connector and has the most damage. More importantly, there is major damage at both the east and west trailheads. Because of the damage at the trailheads and the connectivity of other trails to the damaged Apex Gulch trail JCOS decided the potential for users entering damaged areas is too high. Thus, the closure.

    On the list of priorities, trail user safety is higher than trail use. Sure, it sucks, but it does no good to blame people who are doing their jobs; nor to demand anything because of perceived entitlement.

    A rough estimate from the damage map lists ~6 miles of trail with minor and moderate damage and another ~1 mile of major damage. That's ~74% of the total milage with some sort of damage. (JCOS list the criteria for damage assessment in the FAQs.) That leaves ~26% of the trails undamaged.

    So, if ~3/4 of the park needs trail work, it makes sense to close the entire park until a comprehensive and longterm solution is determined.

  42. #42
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    ^^ I am just happy that we're going to start moving forward sooner than later. The real answer is that JCOS is a bureaucracy, and a government entity and both of those things mean that they have to come up with some rules and abide by those rules and lean towards safety even in times when it seems clearly ridiculous. The Major damage is the only reason to close any part of the trail. The "minor to moderate" damage, if you go by actual user reports and not the map that basically has every inch of trail classified as damaged, is mostly nonsense. They can close the gut, Sluicebox and I even understand Hardscrabble to upper Apex/ Enchanted since the top entrance is so messed up, but they most certainly could have had the east/ lower entrance repaired and Pick n Sledge/ Grubstake already opened if they had decided that it was just as much "low hanging fruit" as similar damage at other parks. It would be very easy to put significant barriers up on the sections you want closed (this is a single track trail system, after all), and keep people out of the areas you don't want open. As for managing the crowds, etc, I also think that's BS. If the trail gets too crowded, people won't ride/ run/ hike there, and people aren't quite as likely to drive from Denver or elsewhere to ride a stunted jaunt up PnS when they would have so many other open parks to choose from where they could get more miles/ better access/ less crowds for the same drive. Which means it would primarily benefit locals... you know, JCOS taxpayers (not sure why we shouldn't have some perceived entitlement). I've given up hope that anything is going to move any faster than they are, but I still definitely reserve some frustration at the process, especially when the "reasons" sound so much more like thinly veiled excuses.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  43. #43
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    The FAQ covers every issue you have with the closure.

    The phased plan is already in progress, with the first two volunteer days putting up closure signs along Apex Gulch. The next step is to work on the trails in the NE part of the park (the most with minor to moderate damage); then work on the west part of the park and EF; with the final, and most, work done on Apex Gulch.

    As for the alternating days for hikers/equestrians and bikers, it is a good way to ameliorate any potential user conflicts. It's not like the hikers/equines. are getting a better deal.

    The "reasons" for the closure only appear as "thinly veiled excuses" because you're seeing the problem from your perspective: the user.

    For locals, this closure ins't a big deal. As you said, there are other places for people to go: MW/DR is less than 2 miles (and linkable to GM); CG is just over 2 miles; WR and NTM are just a bit further at ~7 miles and ~5 miles.

  44. #44
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    Yes- The "phased plan" is already in progress (you know, since it was only announced one week ago, that's pretty impressive), but the trails could have been opened already (and the plan could have been released sooner- we didn't need them spending time making neat videos about how awesome JCOS is). I'm just saying that it didn't need to move so slowly and the whole park doesn't need to still be closed. They put off dealing with Apex (as they said at the meeting) because there were other, easier fixes to deal with first, and it was easier to just close the entire park and figure it out later.

    The FAQ covers every issue, but I'm just saying that I think some of the answers in the FAQ aren't that satisfactory to me (THE user- yes, it's true, the non-users likely don't give a sh*t). Possible late 2014/ 2015 to build some bridges over 5-6 gaps? Seriously? 3/4 of the park with trail damage? Please.

    We're talking about instituting alternating days to ameliorate potential conflict? Why do we assume there's going to be conflict? Seriously, how many equestrians are going to park at Apex to go up PnS? I would guess not many. Still, alternating days? fine.

    Oh- and I'm a local. And it's a BIG deal (I'm joking here, but please don't speak for me or many of the other locals who live nearby the trails and are frustrated by the snail's pace approach). In fact, I'm so local that I typically walk or ride or run to the park, so getting in a car to load up my dogs for a run to go to a more congested trail does kinda suck.

    Honestly, like I said, I am happy we're moving forward. I was actually quite thrilled with the news at the meeting and am excited about any progress that can be made. I've offered to help run mini-crews with trained volunteers so that we might get the park opened sooner, but those offers have been ignored. Either way, I'm psyched, just a bit disappointed by the slog of bureaucracy.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  45. #45
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    the trail is riding well
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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    Enjoy the riding "W" but please don't get caught. Those JCOS folks are bulldogs! Meanwhile, most of the responses to my "call for involvement" were answered, it seems to me, by sheep and the park remains closed...

  47. #47
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    GoldenGeezer- not sure what you "call to involvement" was, but I missed it.

    I had a meeting with three folks from JCOS two weeks ago. There was some new news and most of it wasn't great. They are planning on some major trail re-routing of Pick N Sledge, which they didn't really talk about in the meeting they had for the public. I urged them to consider opening PnS/ Grubstake (what they're calling "phase 1") sooner (Tim Sandsmark had said at the meeting that he didn't see any reason why it couldn't be open by January-- and he's right, there's no real damage up that way). Then, they could put their efforts into Phase 2 (upper Apex/ Hardscrabble/ Enchanted) and Phase 3 (main Gut/ Sluicebox where the worst washouts are), and circle back and THEN do the re-routing on PnS. I urged, I pleaded. I was basically told "no" and that Phase 1 wouldn't likely be open until May. The excuse (not reason, excuse) was that it was too hard to manage the front side of the trail only. I pointed out (and so did one of the other JCOS people) that their whole plan for Phase 1 to manage just that section of trail, only later in the spring. That didn't go anywhere.

    The point of the meeting was to try to organize and train some folks from the community who could lead "mini-crews" independent of the organized volunteer days and chip away at the work that needs to be done in order to speed things up a little and better involve the community. They were receptive to this idea, and in the next couple of weeks, we should hear about some opportunities to get trained in some trail maintenance and rebuilding and there will be a call to identify folks who would be willing to be leaders of these "mini-crews." There was a lot of back and forth, but the thing that was most obvious was that this is a bureaucratic, government entity and it moves at a snail's pace, and with their own goals. I couldn't agree more about the transparency piece and I have subsequently communicated that the major frustrations in the community could largely be resolved if they could do a better job communicating- via Facebook, meetings, website, etc.

    Some good news is that they are definitely planning on putting in a skills area at the base of Apex. So... there's that.

    I'm looking forward to hearing what they put together in the next couple of weeks to communicate their plans with the public and to try to garner support from volunteers to get things moving. There ARE people in JCOS (Tim being one) who also think that the frontside could and should be opened sooner, but they're not ultimately in charge and the decisions are being made somewhat unilaterally, it seems.

    I've heard several reports like WKD's- including that the entire frontside, including Apex up to the wall, all of PnS, all of Argos, and all of Grubstake is totally rideable. Keeping it closed because it would be "difficult to manage" during the slowest usage season of the year is BS. We do know that they are working with FEMA and trying to get extra monies to do more trail work (like what they're considering for PnS), but if that's the case, then just tell us.

    I'll keep y'all posted as I hear more in the coming weeks (much of the senior staff at JCOS was on break the last week or so). My hope is that we will have a "call to involvement" that could actually move things forward. If not, I'm hoping there are more folks who will rally to try to let them know that it's BS.

    Oh- and as for the bulldogs- the most they can do is give you a $50 ticket.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  48. #48
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    Thanks Al. I have been pretty critical of JCOS in the past, but on this one, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Keep me in the loop for the mini-crews! Everyone just needs some patience. Go ride a different park for now.

  49. #49
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    Great update, thanks for taking the time to meet with them and inform us!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmalling View Post
    Great update, thanks for taking the time to meet with them and inform us!
    x3. Thanks Al! Much appreciated.

  51. #51
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    JeffCo has released its plan and a timeline:

    - Jefferson County, Colorado
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  52. #52
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    Cool, thanks for the heads up WKD-RDR.

    Was trying to figure out the trail named Poco Calle. Looks like it is a neighborhood access to Enchanted Forest? Was not on their previous map.

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  53. #53
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    Though it's 7 months after the storms, March 31st sounds pretty good. When we met a few weeks ago, they were dropping "sometime in May" a lot.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  54. #54
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    Not sure if folks got this- If you click on the eventbrite link for next Wednesday's meeting, it says it's sold out, but maybe if enough of us put our names on the wait list, they'll open it up to a bigger audience? Letter from JCOS:

    Thank you for indicating your willingness to help Jeffco Open Space repair and reopen trails damaged from September’s flooding. A unique series of events is now available to you. Jeffco Open Space will be providing Trails Training Projects for small groups of volunteers. Trails Training Projects will give volunteers a solid skill set to help Jeffco Open Space crews reopen trails that remain closed following last September’s severe flooding, including Apex Park. Open to volunteers of all skill levels, these sessions will focus on various aspects of trail maintenance and construction as well as hands-on practice. After attending a Trails Training Project, volunteers will be better prepared to hit the ground ready to work, when participating in typical Volunteer Trail events hosted by Jeffco Open Space.

    On January 22, a kickoff event will be hosted at the Jeffco Open Space offices from 6:00 – 7:30PM. This kickoff will cover the basics of trail construction processes and design considerations in a classroom setting. This kickoff is not a prerequisite to the Trail Training Projects series, but will benefit volunteers that want to understand how trails are designed and built within natural landscapes.

    Beginning January 28 through the month of February, Trail Training Projects will occur weekdays from 9AM to 3PM on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. Space is limited to 10 volunteers per event. All events will be subject to weather/site conditions and will take place in the field at either Apex Park, White Ranch Park or North Table Mountain Park. Due to logistical concerns, participants are required to register through Eventbrite Trails Training Project Kickoff Meeting Tickets, Golden - Eventbrite. If participation and interest demonstrate need, additional training projects may be scheduled.

    Happy Trails!
    Dave


    Dave Davenport
    Trails Services Lead
    Jeffco Open Space
    303-271-5924 direct
    303-886-3988 mobile
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    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  55. #55
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    More from JCOS:

    Alex,
    I’m encouraging people to sign up for the wait list so we can make a determination on a course of action after we see the total response. Our current limitation is room size. We may need to have an additional meeting or I might be able to get you into Wednesday night, I should know more by tomorrow. In the meantime, feel free to sign up for the individual training days as well.

    Jefferson County Open Space on Eventbrite
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  56. #56
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    Went to meeting last night, and it appears they will be flattening a few sections of trails. they look to centennial cone as the perfect trail. this is sadly unfortunate. it also appears they will be using the motivated volunteers to capitalize on the chance to significantly reduce the slope of pick and sledge. the challenging switchbacks will be gone for good...

    at this time the could not confirm if they will "flatten" any other trails, as they have not had a chance to spend time yet to determine this. but we can only assume, as they stated the grade was unsustainable multiple times...

    Apex Flood Damage Photos - Closure to continue well into 2014-img_1947.jpg

    Hopefully you can see the picture.

    "Keep Apex Black"
    "Don't Centennial Cone Apex"

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    Kim (JCOS trail designer) has stated that 15% shall be the maximum grade for sustainibility and the safety and enjoyment of most users. I think this is "set in stone" (pun intended).

  58. #58
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    Keep in mind that the average grade on Whistler's famous A-line is about 6 percent.

    More here: grade percentage - Aline, dirt merchant, ect

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    Geezer: 15% is untrue. Jeffco goal for their definition of trail grade sustainability is 7 to 8% grade. Directly from Kimbo last night. Pick & sledge switchback is 15%, thus this section will be bypasses for "flatter" grade.

  60. #60
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    "Keep in mind that the average grade on Whistler's famous A-line is about 6 percent.

    More here: grade percentage - Aline, dirt merchant, ect"

    A-line is a jump trail, when is Jeffco putting in a jump trail at Apex?? Not saying the trail won't be fun but I mountain bike for more than jumps, sometimes scary rock switchbacks are fun too. Oh, well it will save me a drive.
    Feels like an Arby's night.

  61. #61
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    My point is that many people equate sustainable grades with boring riding. That's not necessarily the case -- I don't know many people that would call A-line or Dirt Merchant boring. I thought it would be worth pointing out that the trail gradient isn't a good way to judge the nature of the riding. For instance, the doubletrack section on the east side of Walker Ranch is super steep, but not much fun to ride.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikebum View Post
    Geezer: 15% is untrue. Jeffco goal for their definition of trail grade sustainability is 7 to 8% grade. Directly from Kimbo last night. Pick & sledge switchback is 15%, thus this section will be bypasses for "flatter" grade.
    15% is the MAX grade, avg grade is 7-8%. Some use 10% avg grade.
    So you can have short sections at 15%.

    1/2 rule. 30% side slope you can still run 15% and the water will sheet off.

  63. #63
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    The majority of the meeting was relatively frustrating for me. It lacked in productivity and I felt like we were being talked down to like we were 12. “Who likes to hike, m’kay?” I’m not joking. He regularly said, “m’kay." At one point, he dramatically pulled down 5 or 6 pieces of chart paper and asked for 10 volunteers to come up front. He had the 10 volunteers stand on the 5-6 pieces of paper so they were kinda tight together. Then he said that, according to studies that they’ve done for the past two years, 4 of these people would be mountain bikers, 5-6 would be pedestrians and 1 (or less than 1) would be an equestrian. Then the people sat down and the paper was thrown away. Every single person there, save one teenage daughter there with her mom, was easily over 30 and I’m sure very well capable of understanding percentages without the demo. But that’s how the first hour or so went- Kim giving “instruction” and explanation for trail terminology and such. But instead of just saying “when marking for new trails, JeffCo always flags the hinge-point (the inside edge of the trail), he told us about how 4-5 other agencies also do it, and asked people to participate and answer “why do you think it’s important to be on the same page when flagging a trail?” Seriously? Just tell us how you want it done. 10 seconds. Move on.

    Anyway, after an hour plus of relatively useless information that could’ve been covered in 10 minutes, we got into some more interesting information.

    Dave and Eric are both “Trail Services Team Leads” and are two of the head trail builders for JeffCo. They’re the guys out there blowing up rocks when needed and running the trail crews, etc. Dave was a HUGE breath of fresh air. I had a chance to speak with him for a while during the break (funny, but he knew who I was even though we’ve never met). When I asked him why PnS and Grubstake can’t be open now and why it hasn’t been open, he basically said he was frustrated by it to, but the decision was “above [his] pay grade.”

    So, on to the salient points:
    Starting next week, they are going to be doing weekly “Trail Trainings” for the next two months. These will be field-based, limited to 6 participants (unless they can get more staff) and will be sign-ups through Eventbrite: Jefferson County Open Space on Eventbrite.

    The Trail Trainings are different from regular project days in that they are designed to help people learn and get better at specific trail building skills and aspects. Their goal is to grow the “mini-crew” concept and be able to lean on volunteers who do some Trail Trainings to eventually lead Mini-Crews and/or be more self-directed during regular project days (“Bill, why don’t you take these 6 people and go work on the rock reinforcement on the new switchback after Argos”). They intend to also get quite a bit of work done on these days, but not as much as would get done on a regular project day. Again, the hope is that people will gain enough skills and training to be more self-directed in the future- possibly leading ad-hoc mini-crews.

    Despite the recent work at NTM, they assured everyone that their first priority is Apex and, secondly, White Ranch.

    Apex specific:
    Same schedule as before: Phase 1 (PnS/ Grubstake) by March 31st, Phase 2 (upper Sluicebox/ Hardscrabble/ Upper Apex [to create through traffic to Lookout Mtn Rd]) by June 30th, Phase 3 (Apex proper and Enchanted) by September 30th.

    Why has it not been opened yet? Because of some ********. People being overwhelmed, easy to shut it down while getting "low-hanging fruit” in other areas, vacations over x-mas break, etc- plenty of excuses, none of them good reasons. But, all in the past, so not shit to do about it.

    Why can’t it be opened now? They just got the conceptual drawing from the engineers/ planners/ designers in it’s final form (pic posted above) on Tuesday. They take it to the board/ county/ city on Monday to present it for a permit. Permit can be 8-10 days at the fastest, but can be drawn out for various reasons (just like any kind of building permit). They are hoping for the 8-10 day thing and feel the board is eager to get this going as well. But, even without permitting, they are planning on beginning to back-fill the existing trail starting in about a week (by Feb 1st) if weather cooperates. They can begin that work without a permit.

    Yes- it will be more like Hardscrabble and Centennial Cone, and will not be the PnS we have all come to love (and hate) (and love) (and love). The 10-15% grade thing is interesting. In the map above, everywhere there is a yellow highlighted area, the trail is 15% or more. Even though much of that trail has been able to stay somewhat stable over the many years, after the 1000 year flood, they are saying the entire hydraulic profile of the entire mountain has changed- places that used to have minor washout concerns used to have a lot of trees and brush and layers and layers of debris and soil and other things that helped naturally filter and dilute runoff in a normal rain shower. Those same areas are now drainages that are exposed bedrock above and below the trail and even a minor rain storm is going to cause significantly more damage and erosion than ever before. This made some sense to me. Even though the trail seems fine, the mountain around it has changed. Not happy about it, but, like I said, it made some sense.

    While only Phase 1 is open, they are considering alternating days or other schedules for management reasons- plan to be released by end of February.

    I didn't get the impression that they're going to make any changes to Enchanted or the Apex Gut other than the necessary repairs- but when asked about it, the response was something like, "No. Not yet."

    Other tidbits: IMBA/ COMBA are working with JCOS to build a mountain bike only trail system at Mt. Glen (I don’t know where that is).

    There is more work from Flood Recovery than can be done in one year at their normal staffing levels. They are putting in for 3 FT “Term” staff (1 year contract) to help with the Flood Relief efforts. They are hopeful they will get the funding to support this in the next couple of weeks. They are also hoping to increase volunteer efforts by more than 25%. With both of those factors, they hope to finish flood relief efforts this year.

    The next project that was slotted to be completed this year, but is now set back until flood recovery is done, is a 6 mile connector between White Ranch and Golden Gate.

    I think that’s it.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  64. #64
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    I understand your point, but the section going to be bypassed is an excellent tech section into a steep technical switchback. this will be replaced with a trail similar to centennial cone & NTM, in which it appears JCOS couldn't be prouder of (however they still state that NTM is still too steep). i appreciate trails in which a FS bike is required, with natural technical features, that present a challenge. Jeffco has yet to produce a sustainable grade with exciting riding.

  65. #65
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    First off thanks to all those who have spent time attending meetings and exchanging emails with the land managers.

    It's sad, but not unexpected to see the sustainability and grade issues coming into play for Apex and even worse for White Ranch. I pretty much wrote Apex off once the alternating day rule for EF was implemented and they put in the corral so I don't have a horse in the race really.

    My opinion after seeing the post damage "trail work" done to Walker Ranch and other front range areas: Anyone expecting anything else other than a generic flat boring turning switchback mess is fooling themselves.

  66. #66
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    Yep. Losing PnS is going to suck. Those features have served as a constant challenge and, thankfully, accomplishment to my riding. The new trail will be a good challenge for my 4 year old. Maybe.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  67. #67
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    RIP pick & sledge... you will be missed.

    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Yep. Losing PnS is going to suck. Those features have served as a constant challenge and, thankfully, accomplishment to my riding. The new trail will be a good challenge for my 4 year old. Maybe.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    The next project that was slotted to be completed this year, but is now set back until flood recovery is done, is a 6 mile connector between White Ranch and Golden Gate.
    Glad that's somewhat official

  69. #69
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    "however they still state that NTM is still too steep"

    Where the hell on this trail is anything too steep? Maybe the 25 yard above the washed out water fall section, but hardly TOO steep.

    What are they going for here? Trails that never need maintenance? Switchbacks that don't need water bars that make them a challenge? What will trails crew do if not repair trails after 2-3 storms per year? We don't need smooth-ass NTM trails everywhere with boring wide switchbacks mixed in. I love NTM as I live at the base and ride it often. But it gets boring, fast. Apex and white ranch provide a change in pace that this county needs to keep bikers happy and prevent the eventual poaching of tougher lines up and down the trail. I realize they'll never make everyone happy, but are there any mtn bikers out there who are happy to hear Apex will become less challenging? Would it kill jeffco to put in a few log bridges or skinnies to keep it interesting?

  70. #70
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    oops
    Last edited by bad_andy; 01-23-2014 at 06:33 PM. Reason: fubar'd
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Other tidbits: IMBA/ COMBA are working with JCOS to build a mountain bike only trail system at Mt. Glen (I don’t know where that is).
    Mt Glennon, perhaps?
    Do a google map search - it's the hogback - surrounded by - HW74/Morrison Rd (N), HW 8 (W), HW 285 (S), C470 (E)
    Old Codger

  72. #72
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    Yes. Glennon.

    rmalling- please contact folks at JCOS to share your (our) frustrations if you haven't already. I am hopeful that the gut, enchanted, and sluice box will remain technically challenging. There are few trails on the front range that have what Apex/ PnS have had in terms of technical riding and I couldn't agree more, but I've put a bit of effort into this with the end result feeling like our input doesn't really matter and they are going to make the trails more "sustainable" whether we like it or not.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  73. #73
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    They were referring specifically to the waterfall trail that blew out (shocking), and is still closed. That is the only trail they said was "too steep" on NTM.

    Most of last night's presentation and dialogue was dull and dry, but still informative. A lot of people were there to help, and unfortunately, some to grind an ax. It wasn't meant to be public input hour, that time has passed. They're going to do what they're going to do. And to an extent I think people are making a bigger deal out of this than it really is. Just search in this forum from about 5 years ago when they implemented the alternate day plan on Apex. It was like the world was coming unglued. As it turned out, it wasn't so bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by rmalling View Post
    "however they still state that NTM is still too steep"

    Where the hell on this trail is anything too steep? Maybe the 25 yard above the washed out water fall section, but hardly TOO steep.

    What are they going for here? Trails that never need maintenance? Switchbacks that don't need water bars that make them a challenge? What will trails crew do if not repair trails after 2-3 storms per year? We don't need smooth-ass NTM trails everywhere with boring wide switchbacks mixed in. I love NTM as I live at the base and ride it often. But it gets boring, fast. Apex and white ranch provide a change in pace that this county needs to keep bikers happy and prevent the eventual poaching of tougher lines up and down the trail. I realize they'll never make everyone happy, but are there any mtn bikers out there who are happy to hear Apex will become less challenging? Would it kill jeffco to put in a few log bridges or skinnies to keep it interesting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmalling View Post
    "however they still state that NTM is still too steep"

    Where the hell on this trail is anything too steep? Maybe the 25 yard above the washed out water fall section, but hardly TOO steep.
    The service roads.
    Duh.
    Old Codger

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    As it turned out, it wasn't so bad.
    The new trail sections aren't so bad. New rules that only negatively affect mtbrs suck.
    Golden Bike Park

    Golden Connector Trails need your support!

  76. #76
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    Apex Flood Damage Photos - Closure to continue well into 2014

    The new sections are great. I love the extra trail and variations that hardscrabble brought to the park, but they didn't replace existing trail and everything that makes apex so unique and awesome remained. Pick n sledge is going to be completely replaced and if they did similar redesign of the whole park, it would suck a lot. And the world would most definitely come unglued.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    The new trail sections aren't so bad. New rules that only negatively affect mtbrs suck.
    The alternate day affected hikers too. It was put in place to reduce conflict, and it worked.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    The alternate day affected hikers too. It was put in place to reduce conflict, and it worked.
    At Centenntial Cone yes, but at Apex it only restricts bikers. Not sure how much that decision has reduced conflict, but it certainly seems to have reduced bike traffic pretty effectively.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15 View Post
    but it certainly seems to have reduced bike traffic in the park.
    Which, frankly, I didn't mind.

    I think it would be really cool if they left PnS how it is AND put in the new trail- that would reduce conflict even more by spreading more people out. More beginner cyclists and hikers would be likely to take the new trail, and more advanced cyclists (and more fit hikers/ trail runners) would take the existing trail.

    But that's not going to happen.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15 View Post
    ...but it certainly seems to have reduced bike traffic pretty effectively.
    And how is that a bad thing?

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    I think it would be really cool if they left PnS how it is AND put in the new trail- that would reduce conflict even more by spreading more people out. More beginner cyclists and hikers would be likely to take the new trail, and more advanced cyclists (and more fit hikers/ trail runners) would take the existing trail.
    I couldn't agree more!

    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    But that's not going to happen.
    ... and I can't understand this less.

    Thanks for all your work on this Al. Much appreciated.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    And how is that a bad thing?
    having restrictions on (just) bikes is a slippery slope, R
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    having restrictions on (just) bikes is a slippery slope, R
    I'm not sure I see it as a restriction. But when do restrictions (like park closures) stand in your way?

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    I'm not sure I see it as a restriction.
    hmmm, not sure I see your point.




    if they would make Enchanted bike only on Even days, I'd be more accepting of the restrictions, or whatever you wanna call 'em.


    we should go for a ride Sunday, supposed to be really nice
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  85. #85
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    Ooops never mind.

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    I'm not sure I believe in slippery slopes so much and I don't think the restrictions are that unreasonable- I don't like them, but we got a bunch of new trail and the park is more interesting than it used to be. To me. However, I do believe in collaboration and communication- especially from a small, local government entity that, ostensibly, works for me, my fellow community members and the interests of its "Stakeholders."

    They have given many reasons, but none of them have been acceptable to me. Again- to me. I understand that it's acceptable to you and maybe much of the public, but they started out by flat-out lying to us. We were told that some ridiculous percentage of Pick and Sledge was washed out- unstable- unsafe. Early on there were reports from people who went up before the gates did and the park was closed- they said that PnS was fine. A couple of small changes, some small rutting, and a few rocks in the trail here and there, but nothing a couple of people couldn't fix in a day. After months of frustration of hearing similar stories, I went up to check it out myself. I can tell you, without exaggeration, that PnS is completely fine as it stands. It is 100% rideable (and super fun on a fatbike as there are drifts in the normal shady spots). What's worse is that they've actually done some work on it in the past few weeks- work that made the trail better and cleaner and completely usable (basically fixing the small list above).

    Oh- and another unacceptable answer for why it hasn't been open and isn't open now- Kim told me in December that the whole plan for Phase 1 is to open Argos, Pick and Sledge, Grubstake, Bonanza. When I asked why it couldn't be open now, he said because it would be too hard to manage. But they plan on managing it, somehow, some way, between opening Phase 1 and Phase 2- for three months. Right now is easily the lowest use time of the entire year. Even on sunny, warm, winter days when it's not a mudfest, you might have a dozen or two dozen people who use the trail in a day. This wouldn't cause major user conflict, even in the smaller area. For much of the winter, when there is fresh snow on the trail, you might see 1-2, maybe 5 people who use the trail in a day. This would not be difficult to manage. Much less than it's going to be in April, May and June.

    At the meeting, when talking about managing Phase 1, they talked about alternating days, or other such methods. They said they will have a decision by the end of February. Seriously? Is this really that complicated? I don't care if we have alternating days when the park opens- hell, give me alternating days NOW. I just want my park open or a viable reason for why not.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  87. #87
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    And you wonder why an OS official knew who you are without meeting you.

    You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

    It seems like the reroute is due to unstable slopes above/below PnS and may have less to do with the actual trail tread.

    Continue making wild speculations, or ride your damn bike and get over it.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    And you wonder why an OS official knew who you are without meeting you.

    You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

    It seems like the reroute is due to unstable slopes above/below PnS and may have less to do with the actual trail tread.

    Continue making wild speculations, or ride your damn bike and get over it.

    Not sure where he is being terribly inflammatory, or making wild speculations. Can you point these out? Please be specific.
    The irony of your post is that you yourself are making speculations. I put that in bold so its easy to find.

    And I believe he mentioned that he was indeed riding his damned bike.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  89. #89
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  90. #90
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    Just tell them the trails need to be built for Enduro.
    Biker? I don't even know her.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    Not sure where he is being terribly inflammatory, or making wild speculations. Can you point these out?
    Making fun of a persons speech: "'Who likes to hike, m’kay?' I’m not joking. He regularly said, 'm’kay.'"

    Failure of perspective: "Why has it not been opened yet? Because of some ********."

    Critiquing something he knows nothing about: "Kim giving 'instruction'...Seriously?"

    Demanding the world bend to his demands: "They have given many reasons, but none of them have been acceptable to me."

    Impatience: "Oh- and another unacceptable answer for why it hasn't been open and isn't open now-"

    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR View Post
    And I believe he mentioned that he was indeed riding his damned bike.
    Yep. Illegally, good for him! Stick it to the man.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    The alternate day affected hikers too.
    Negatively affected hikers?
    Golden Bike Park

    Golden Connector Trails need your support!

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser View Post
    Negatively affected hikers?
    How, exactly, have bikers (aside from the shuttlers, who largely were the reason behind the alternate day plan) been negatively affected by the alternate day plan?

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    How, exactly, have bikers (aside from the shuttlers, who largely were the reason behind the alternate day plan) been negatively affected by the alternate day plan?
    You can't be serious, Russ. Apex, alone, ridden on odd days blows. It flows fine doing it as Chipex, but people don't always have time to do Chimpex.

    If there hasn't been a negative effect on bikers, why would bike traffic have decreased?

    I think the general concerns some in here are expressing (with which I agree) is JCOS's taking actions, or not taking actions, and not being forthright in their reasons for doing so -- also their making big productions to ask for input they continually ignore without understandable or even credible reasons at times. People have a right to be unhappy with that, and even say so. It's about as productive as howling at the moon, but they do have every right and reason to do it.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    How, exactly, have bikers (aside from the shuttlers, who largely were the reason behind the alternate day plan) been negatively affected by the alternate day plan?
    Ummmm... if it isn't obvious, I'm not sure pointing things out is going to make sense.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    Yep.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    Ummmm... if it isn't obvious, I'm not sure pointing things out is going to make sense.
    Right. Yes. Clearly it's discrimination. *yawn*. Really a first world problem, aint' it. Just because you can't get gnarly in Enchanted Forest any time you want is a civil right's violation, and you of course now better.

    Clearly everyone here who thinks Apex is closed due to nefarious JCOS reasons knows better than the entity who is tasked with managing it. Right.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15 View Post
    You can't be serious, Russ. Apex, alone, ridden on odd days blows. It flows fine doing it as Chipex, but people don't always have time to do Chimpex.

    If there hasn't been a negative effect on bikers, why would bike traffic have decreased?

    I think the general concerns some in here are expressing (with which I agree) is JCOS's taking actions, or not taking actions, and not being forthright in their reasons for doing so -- also their making big productions to ask for input they continually ignore without understandable or even credible reasons at times. People have a right to be unhappy with that, and even say so. It's about as productive as howling at the moon, but they do have every right and reason to do it.
    Yeah, I'm serious. There's plenty to do up there to keep me busy whenever I go up there. Ever tried hiking up Enchanted Forest on an even day? It's taking your life into your own hands. That problem was brought on by ourselves. Because mtb'ers as a whole couldn't have enough discipline to use common sense, we get what we got. Alternate days. Coulda been worse, coulda lost access to the whole thing.

    I'm sure it's a huge conspiracy by JCOS to keep people off of Apex for some reason. Couldn't possibly be related to assuming all kinds of legal risk by opening the park when it could be deemed as dangerous or anything. Couldn't also be that there were other parks damaged that are now fixed because they chose to fix many parks before fixing one...no, you guys know better I'm sure.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    Yeah, I'm serious. There's plenty to do up there to keep me busy whenever I go up there. Ever tried hiking up Enchanted Forest on an even day? It's taking your life into your own hands. That problem was brought on by ourselves. Because mtb'ers as a whole couldn't have enough discipline to use common sense, we get what we got. Alternate days. Coulda been worse, coulda lost access to the whole thing.

    I'm sure it's a huge conspiracy by JCOS to keep people off of Apex for some reason. Couldn't possibly be related to assuming all kinds of legal risk by opening the park when it could be deemed as dangerous or anything. Couldn't also be that there were other parks damaged that are now fixed because they chose to fix many parks before fixing one...no, you guys know better I'm sure.
    Many moons, lots of howling.

    By the way, you missed a great game.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    Ever tried hiking up Enchanted Forest on an even day? It's taking your life into your own hands.
    that's because, with restrictions, you force a user group into a smaller area, and you get.... moar user conflict in that area


    Quote Originally Posted by russman View Post
    I'm sure it's a huge conspiracy by JCOS to keep people off of Apex for some reason.
    not a conspiracy, or any nefarious reason (good use of the word, btw). Just gross incompetence. I feel like I'm playing for the Cleveland Browns here.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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