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  1. #1
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    Agressive Driver Warning

    OK... while not mountain bike related, my rant is about biking in the FR and nearly being plowed into by a total A-hole who had a MT bike in his pickup and was driving to Hall Ranch, Antelope Trail head.

    Here's the situation:

    I am riding along with 2 other dudes on Apple Valley road headed out of Lyons and there is no traffic, like most days at 12:15PM. The three of us are on roadbikes, 2 in front, 1 behind in a tight grouping that is NOT taking up too much road.

    A dude in a HUGE old (70's era something, bluish/rust coloroed) dualie pickup buzzes us about 1 foot away; clearly he's not a fan of roadies. at the last second, he cuts it even closer forcing the dude in the left front position to swerve into the dude in the right front position, who road (momentarily) off the road. Luckily, we all have good bike handling skills and no one went down.

    Now, I've been buzzed by loads of cars and accept this as part of the bargin, but there are a few things that really bother me about this incident:

    1. Apple valley road has NO traffic mid-day, mid week
    2. We are with in the law being 2-abreast
    3. He had plenty of room to pass us
    4. HE HAD A FVCKING BIKE IN HIS TRUCK!!!!!!
    5. He made no indication that he even saw us or cared, so this was intentional

    So, watch out for this dude. Here's the best description I can give you:
    -70's or 80s dualie long bed pick up, blue with rusty patches
    -Rides a silver/champagne colored Motobicane mountain bike (on an upright bed rack)
    -Rides at Hall Ranch, Antelope Trail.
    -Probably a total A-Hole in regular life as well

    I didn't get the plate as I was too busy trying not to crash into my riding buddies.

    Thanks a lot dude, you're a real winner!

  2. #2
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    Just curious, if you knew where he was going to and you were close by...

    Why did you go the internet sandy vag route instead of making a stop @ the TH to say "hello" to said driver?

  3. #3
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    I thought about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by WKD-RDR
    Just curious, if you knew where he was going to and you were close by...

    Why did you go the internet sandy vag route instead of making a stop @ the TH to say "hello" to said driver?
    I "assume" he went to the Antelope Trail head, but maybe he didn't go there... it wasn't really possible to catch up to him. I debated doing that (and a few other modifications to said truck), but in the end just needed (for time's sake) to get back to work.

    I thought posting here might serve as a warning to other cyclist in the Lyons area.

    PS - I don't really know what "sandy vag" means, but I'm sure it's not flattering.

  4. #4
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    Well that sucks

    I can relate and don't understand drivers who show no respect for a fellow rider.

    Just cuz I am a curious kind of guy, were you riding 2x1 in a designated bike lane or were you left of the white line?

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOEMTBR COLORADO
    I can relate and don't understand drivers who show no respect for a fellow rider.

    Just cuz I am a curious kind of guy, were you riding 2x1 in a designated bike lane or were you left of the white line?
    Apple Valley road has no bike lane. No doubt that single file would be better, but there was PLENTY of room and 2x is legal. Also, there is just about nothing right of the white line except a 3" drop off into the bushes and dirt.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOEMTBR COLORADO
    I can relate and don't understand drivers who show no respect for a fellow rider.

    Just cuz I am a curious kind of guy, were you riding 2x1 in a designated bike lane or were you left of the white line?
    Not sure this question has any bearing since by law motorists are required to give 3 feet to cyclists when passing...

    This kind of situation sucks, and, unfortunately because society is for the most part, intolerant of anyone who is not like them. Sucks. Like it's THAT hard to respect fellow cyclists, much less fellow humans.
    R

  8. #8
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    "5. He made no indication that he even saw us or cared, so this was intentional"

    Okay...

  9. #9
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    hm ok a minor correction

    Quote Originally Posted by BigSteve in CO
    "5. He made no indication that he even saw us or cared, so this was intentional"

    Okay...
    was intentional --> seemed intentional

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogidave
    was intentional --> seemed intentional
    Doesn't matter. Negligence is no excuse, and death/injuries are permanent.

  11. #11
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    I'm assuming you all had a single, red reflector facing rearwards, if not, you broke the law as well. You can't have it both ways, if you pick and chose which laws to follow, why cant he?


    You stop at every stop sign and always use had signals, right?

    Learn to share the road, buddy.


    I assume riders who aren't following the law wont care if I don't either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qatarbhoy
    I have to ask for them to do a "Number two" on my head

  12. #12
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    Reflector....No

    Quote Originally Posted by karpiel666
    I'm assuming you all had a single, red reflector facing rearwards, if not, you broke the law as well. You can't have it both ways, if you pick and chose which laws to follow, why cant he?


    You stop at every stop sign and always use had signals, right?

    Learn to share the road, buddy.


    I assume riders who aren't following the law wont care if I don't either.
    Stop @ signs? ... yes
    Hand signals ?... yes.

    I don't enjoy pissing off motorists and do share the road.

    In fact, I've been known to get really annoyed at road cyclist that don't share the road, but I don't try to hit them, yell at them or engage them with my vehicle. I just go around them.

    So are you saying that a 5,000# truck has more right of way than a 185# ride (bike + person) and that a reflector is the arbitrator of right vs wrong? Like it or not, there is a hierarchy of right of way.

    Hmmm.... that sounds a little, crazy.

  13. #13
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    I'm not justifying this guy's behavior, but why do you feel you are "with in the law being 2-abreast"?

    I think if you're 2-abreast and on the left of the white line, you need to get in single-file when traffic is approaching.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggs
    I'm not justifying this guy's behavior, but why do you feel you are "with in the law being 2-abreast"?

    I think if you're 2-abreast and on the left of the white line, you need to get in single-file when traffic is approaching.
    Splitting hairs, no? So they were 2 abreast at a particular point in the road, so that gives this a$$clown the ok to do buzz them with his monster truck? Again, it goes back to respect. There's precious little of it to go around. Like it's THAT hard to step on a brake a little, then when it's all clear, give the cyclists a wide berth, and be 5 seconds late to wherever he was going. Laziness-pure and simple. Would he have REALLY made his point if he had knocked 1 or 2 of them over, or god forbid-seriously injured one of them?

    R

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    Splitting hairs, no? So they were 2 abreast at a particular point in the road, so that gives this a$$clown the ok to do buzz them with his monster truck? Again, it goes back to respect. There's precious little of it to go around. Like it's THAT hard to step on a brake a little, then when it's all clear, give the cyclists a wide berth, and be 5 seconds late to wherever he was going. Laziness-pure and simple. Would he have REALLY made his point if he had knocked 1 or 2 of them over, or god forbid-seriously injured one of them?

    R

    Uhhh, I did note that I wasn't justifying the drivers behavior...

    Read the comments on any article in 9News or the Post about cycling and you'll see a bunch of disgruntled drivers. One of the things they ALWAYS complain about is roadies riding two or more abreast.

    So, my point is that YogiDave may not have been following the law in this case, and giving drivers something to rightfully complain about.

  16. #16
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    If you can get the license #, probably the best thing is the *CSP aggressive driver number. It gets the guy in the "system". Makes his defense tougher should a future similar incident end poorly... In fact, there was a case where reports of aggressive driving were used to get a conviction for first degree murder against a guy who repeatedly did stuff like this.

    Here's the link regarding the murder case and other information: http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=63729.

    The Colorado State Patrol's Star CSP (*277) aggressive driver program was implemented on July 1, 1998. The CSP partnered with several cellular companies to provide a phone number, free of charge, to be used by motorists to report "real time" aggressive driving behavior. The phone number is Star CSP (*277). Since the program was started, the CSP has received more than 230,000 reports of aggressive drivers.

    Some examples of aggressive driving behaviors are moving violations that put other motorists at risk, such as improper lane changes, following too closely, weaving, passing on the shoulder, and speeding.

    When observing an aggressive driver that is putting other motorists at risk, the aggressive driver should be avoided by getting out of the way, not making eye contact or giving any indication of disapproval of their driving behavior. Contact the CSP as soon as is safely possible and be prepared to provide the following information: vehicle description, license plate number, location and direction of travel, driver description, and the aggressive driving behavior being demonstrated.

    The information provided is entered into an aggressive driver database. After three complaints are received against a vehicle, the registered owner is sent a warning letter advising them of the complaints and encouraging them to take the necessary steps to correct the aggressive driving behavior. If additional complaints are received against the vehicle, a uniformed CSP member makes personal contact

  17. #17
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    yogi,
    That sucks. While on my road bike I've been buzzed, yelled at and even bumped off the road (while riding to the right of the white line, single file). I know how you feel.
    But Wiggs is right, sort of. Unfortunately the language of the law is rather ambiguous and interpretation subjective.

    "Colorado Statutes : TITLE 42 VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC : REGULATION OF VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC : ARTICLE 4 REGULATION OF VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC : PART 14 OTHER OFFENSES : 42-4-1412. Operation of bicycles and other human-powered vehicles.
    (6) (a) PERSONS RIDING BICYCLES UPON A ROADWAY SHALL NOT RIDE MORE THAN TWO ABREAST EXCEPT ON PATHS OR PARTS OF ROADWAYS SET ASIDE FOR THE EXCLUSIVE USE OF BICYCLES.
    (b) PERSONS RIDING BICYCLES TWO ABREAST SHALL NOT IMPEDE THE NORMAL AND REASONABLE MOVEMENT OF TRAFFIC AND, ON A LANED ROADWAY, SHALL RIDE WITHIN A SINGLE LANE."

    What is "... NORMAL and REASONABLE..."?

    IMHO. On a narrow road with blind corners, like Apple Valley, there's not really enough time for cyclists riding two abreast to react to traffic coming up from behind and go single file without traffic having to cross into the oncoming lane before overtaking and giving three feet.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajdonner
    yogi,
    What is "... NORMAL and REASONABLE..."?
    IMHO. On a narrow road with blind corners, like Apple Valley, there's not really enough time for cyclists riding two abreast to react to traffic coming up from behind and go single file without traffic having to cross into the oncoming lane before overtaking and giving three feet.
    We went through this a few weeks back.

    The law also clearly states that it is up to the bike rider to determine when he needs extra space, not the driver of a vehicle.

    "Section 5.1. If the right-hand lane then available for traffic is wide enough to be safely shared with overtaking vehicles, a bicyclist shall ride far enough to the right as judged safe by the bicyclist to facilitate the movement of such overtaking vehicles unless other conditions make it unsafe to do so"

    Try as hard as you want. There is absolutely no circumstance in which a driver should be able to use their vehicle as a battering ram to try and "push" someone riding a bike out of their way. If you believe you have the right as a motorist to intimidate people on bikes using a weapon(vehicle), then someone needs to take your car keys and drivers license away.

    Give yogi a break, he just wanted to vent a little.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggs
    I'm not justifying this guy's behavior, but why do you feel you are "with in the law being 2-abreast"?

    I think if you're 2-abreast and on the left of the white line, you need to get in single-file when traffic is approaching.
    single file is required only if riding two abreast impedes traffic. If there is no oncoming traffic at all, or if it is still possible to pass safely with only a minimal delay, then you're not impeding traffic. The law does not say that you have to ride single file so that a driver can pass without any delay or slowing until safe to pass whatsoever.

  20. #20
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    Prudent and Safe

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail
    Try as hard as you want. There is absolutely no circumstance in which a driver should be able to use their vehicle as a battering ram to try and "push" someone riding a bike out of their way. If you believe you have the right as a motorist to intimidate people on bikes using a weapon(vehicle), then someone needs to take your car keys and drivers license away.

    Give yogi a break, he just wanted to vent a little.
    UT your correct, the only intention of my question was that after reading the OP's original comment he felt he was in the right, right or wrong Truck>Bike any day. As for me, riding road or mountain on a dirt road our group always folds into single file when traffic is around or the road narrows with blind corners. A narrow two lane road is no place to ride 2 abreast, IMHO
    Be aware of your surrounding at all times, don't wear head phones on the road and ride defensively, we don't need to read about another fellow rider being run down by stupidity

    Be safe brother.

    Dam,
    Bikes are FUN

  21. #21
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    Personally I don't like to push my luck with cars..
    if I'm on a road with no shoulder and I hear a car back my friends and I single up. Law or no law 2 wide on a road with no shoulder is not too smart. There are just way too many people txting, chatting, not paying attention, and there also the ones who think roadies just flat out suk so they crowd or run you off the road.

    Just my useless opinion an one that has kept me alive so far.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudge
    single file is required only if riding two abreast impedes traffic. If there is no oncoming traffic at all, or if it is still possible to pass safely with only a minimal delay, then you're not impeding traffic. The law does not say that you have to ride single file so that a driver can pass without any delay or slowing until safe to pass whatsoever.
    Quote Originally Posted by ajdonner
    yogi,
    That sucks. While on my road bike I've been buzzed, yelled at and even bumped off the road (while riding to the right of the white line, single file). I know how you feel.
    But Wiggs is right, sort of. Unfortunately the language of the law is rather ambiguous and interpretation subjective.

    "Colorado Statutes : TITLE 42 VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC : REGULATION OF VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC : ARTICLE 4 REGULATION OF VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC : PART 14 OTHER OFFENSES : 42-4-1412. Operation of bicycles and other human-powered vehicles.
    (6) (a) PERSONS RIDING BICYCLES UPON A ROADWAY SHALL NOT RIDE MORE THAN TWO ABREAST EXCEPT ON PATHS OR PARTS OF ROADWAYS SET ASIDE FOR THE EXCLUSIVE USE OF BICYCLES.
    (b) PERSONS RIDING BICYCLES TWO ABREAST SHALL NOT IMPEDE THE NORMAL AND REASONABLE MOVEMENT OF TRAFFIC AND, ON A LANED ROADWAY, SHALL RIDE WITHIN A SINGLE LANE."
    What is "... NORMAL and REASONABLE..."?

    IMHO. On a narrow road with blind corners, like Apple Valley, there's not really enough time for cyclists riding two abreast to react to traffic coming up from behind and go single file without traffic having to cross into the oncoming lane before overtaking and giving three feet.
    Ride Single File!

    Normal and reasonable are not the issue on that road. It is a laned roadway, so you are supposed to ride single file. [Laned roadway: A roadway which is divided into two (2) or more clearly marked lanes for vehicular traffic.]

    I see it all the time here up north. It seems that a lot of roadies (and half-assed, weekend warrior roadies) seem to think the 3' law entitles them to ride however the h3ll they like. This includes riding 2 abreast, and riding outside existing bike lanes. This only infuriates the people who don't want us on the road anyway, and worse, gives them the feeling that they are entitled to bi-tch at us, buzz us, and run us off the road.

    Let's face it, we are at a massive disadvantage to as-sclowns in trucks so maybe we ought to ride within the law and not with a sense of entitlement.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudge
    single file is required only if riding two abreast impedes traffic. If there is no oncoming traffic at all, or if it is still possible to pass safely with only a minimal delay, then you're not impeding traffic. The law does not say that you have to ride single file so that a driver can pass without any delay or slowing until safe to pass whatsoever.
    There are very few places on that road where you have enough visibility to pass 2 cyclists riding abreast. I don't know if that qualifies as "impeding traffic." That said the road is primarily used by cyclists (road and mtn.) and the locals and as such is pretty mellow. This guy obviously has a problem and decided to take it out on you. It probably would have been worthwhile to roll up to the Antelope TH and say something.

    I can't believe there are people saying that it's ok to run someone off the road. That is just ridiculous.

  24. #24
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    UncleTrail,
    Since you quoted me, let me respond. At no point in my most did I support the idea that motorists have the right to intimidate people on bikes. In fact, I empathized with yogidave since I have been on the receiving end of motorists aggression while riding my bike. My intent was to provide reference to the CO law Wiggs mentioned, to point out that it does not necessarily give cyclists carte blanche to ride side by side, and that the vague wording can, unfortunately, lead to different real-world interpretations. Lastly, I stated I would choose to ride single file up Apple Valley as it is my opinion that riding two abreast, on that road, might impede the "normal and reasonable movement of traffic" [Edit to add] and seems unsafe.

  25. #25
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    Oddly enough, I've NEVER been buzzed, bothered, intimidated or any of the like by a vehicle while riding ON TRAILS!!

    I'll never understand the desire of people to ride a bike on a road filled with jackasses. People are scary enough when you're in a car, why in the hell would you ride next to them on purpose on a bike????

    Sorry, I'll just never understand road biking. Still, in the future, take checkred's advice, and call the guy in. If someone attempts to injure you, DO SOMETHING (like, aside from whining about it on the intreweb) that may keep it from happening to other riders.

    Btw, road geeks that ride 2 abreast when cars are around are a pain in the ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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    Meh.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    Ride Single File!

    Normal and reasonable are not the issue on that road. It is a laned roadway, so you are supposed to ride single file. [Laned roadway: A roadway which is divided into two (2) or more clearly marked lanes for vehicular traffic.]

    I see it all the time here up north. It seems that a lot of roadies (and half-assed, weekend warrior roadies) seem to think the 3' law entitles them to ride however the h3ll they like. This includes riding 2 abreast, and riding outside existing bike lanes. This only infuriates the people who don't want us on the road anyway, and worse, gives them the feeling that they are entitled to bi-tch at us, buzz us, and run us off the road.

    Let's face it, we are at a massive disadvantage to as-sclowns in trucks so maybe we ought to ride within the law and not with a sense of entitlement.

    You clearly don't understand the law. It says you may not ride more than two abreast, and shall not ride two abreast when impeding traffic. Impeding traffic does not mean that a driver has to slow until safe to pass, or that they have to cross the center line to avoid striking the cyclists. Impeding traffic means that you've essentially brought traffic to a stop because the conditions just flat don't allow passing.

  28. #28
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    No one dead. No one injured. No one hit. No equipment damaged. No big deal; welcome to road riding.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    Oddly enough, I've NEVER been buzzed, bothered, intimidated or any of the like by a vehicle while riding ON TRAILS!!

    I'll never understand the desire of people to ride a bike on a road filled with jackasses. People are scary enough when you're in a car, why in the hell would you ride next to them on purpose on a bike????

    Sorry, I'll just never understand road biking. Still, in the future, take checkred's advice, and call the guy in. If someone attempts to injure you, DO SOMETHING (like, aside from whining about it on the intreweb) that may keep it from happening to other riders.

    Btw, road geeks that ride 2 abreast when cars are around are a pain in the ass.
    He's not whining about it. He's giving fair warning to his fellow cyclists.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by concretejungle
    I can't believe there are people saying that it's ok to run someone off the road. That is just ridiculous.
    As my Dad always said, "Son, you know how stupid the average person is? Well half of them are dumber than that."
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudge
    You clearly don't understand the law. It says you may not ride more than two abreast, and shall not ride two abreast when impeding traffic. Impeding traffic does not mean that a driver has to slow until safe to pass, or that they have to cross the center line to avoid striking the cyclists. Impeding traffic means that you've essentially brought traffic to a stop because the conditions just flat don't allow passing.
    So, you think it's ok to slow traffic from 55-65 down to the speed that you're riding...

    Not to say that I agree with the guy that the op mentioned... but I can understand how you end up disliking road geek to the point of WANTING to run them off the road... when they think like this guy.
    Don't try to come up here & try to prove your point about what's legal, there's a lot of those rednecks in big trucks that would be happy to disagree with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  32. #32
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    We didn't know he was there

    Or we would have gone single file.... He didn't give us the chance to go single. That's our lunch ride guideline.... we all have no wish to tangle with big bertha the dualie.....

    That said, we where NOT impeding traffic in any way shape or form at where going about 80% of the speed limit.

    As as to the comment about the law calling for a reflector.... WTF good would that have done? If it was at night, he might have seen it, but I'm going out on a limb here to say that in mid-day, the mere presence of a reflector would not have made him drive any differently.

    Flame away. OP out!

  33. #33
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    Regardless if it's legal or not use some common sense. That road's pretty narrow.

  34. #34
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    Next time dial *CSP with the plate number, if he learns his lesson, you might be saving another cyclist's life.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jchull
    Next time dial *CSP with the plate number, if he learns his lesson, you might be saving another cyclist's life.
    Maybe someone else had had a better experience reporting aggressive drivers? I would love to know.

    Here was my experience.

    "Hello, CSP"

    "Hello, I was riding my bike down a street in downtown C/S and a guy in a pickup coming down a side street and ran his stop sign while looking right at me, almost hitting me on purpose. I had to skid to avoid crashing into the side of his truck. When I caught up to him and asked him why he ran the stop sign, he threatened me. I have his license plate number and vehicle description for you."

    "Sorry sir. You'll need to call your local PD. There's nothing we can do about that."

    "Isn't this the hot line to report aggressive drivers?"

    "Yes sir. But you were on a bicycle and you'll need to contact your local PD. There's nothing we can do."

    Give it a try sometime. Maybe you'll have better luck than I did?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    As my Dad always said, "Son, you know how stupid the average person is? Well half of them are dumber than that."
    ROFL

    You should add, "and drunk or stoned."


    My bet is the OP's driver was throwing back an ice cold 12oz Bud Light. The bike was for gettin' to the fishin' hole.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail

    "Sorry sir. You'll need to call your local PD. There's nothing we can do about that."

    Wow. I guess not all of those stupid people are out on the road... some of them answer phones for CSP. What the hell is the difference if a jerk runs a car off the road compared to running a bike off the road??? Oh yeah, you're much more likely to be injured on the bike compared to the car.

    That's a real shame.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  38. #38
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    I should know better than to think they would do something, but I was tricked
    http://bicyclecolo.org/page.cfm?pageId=731

    Perhaps if enough people share their experience with the hotline with Bicycle Colorado? Wishful thinking, I know.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    So, you think it's ok to slow traffic from 55-65 down to the speed that you're riding...

    Not to say that I agree with the guy that the op mentioned... but I can understand how you end up disliking road geek to the point of WANTING to run them off the road... when they think like this guy.
    Don't try to come up here & try to prove your point about what's legal, there's a lot of those rednecks in big trucks that would be happy to disagree with you.
    Ever get behind a piece of heavy equipment on the road? Farm tractor? Combine? Grandma in a motorhome? Person walking on the side of the road way? What difference does it make? You don't pass until it's safe to do so. That's the driver's responsibility, not the passee's.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by concretejungle
    I can't believe there are people saying that it's ok to run someone off the road. That is just ridiculous.

    A sad state of affairs.

    It doesn't matter if cyclists are riding 10 abreast, that doesn't give the driver the right to try and kill them.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    So, you think it's ok to slow traffic from 55-65 down to the speed that you're riding...

    Not to say that I agree with the guy that the op mentioned... but I can understand how you end up disliking road geek to the point of WANTING to run them off the road... when they think like this guy.
    Don't try to come up here & try to prove your point about what's legal, there's a lot of those rednecks in big trucks that would be happy to disagree with you.
    I don't particularly give a happy rat fart as to what those rednecks want to disagree about. I'm not suggesting that it's smart to ride in traffic in such a way as to slow traffic from 55-65 down to whatever. I was making a factual point about what the law states.

    As for people who think like me, you should know that I've been riding the roads for over 25 years and get buzzed by drivers so rarely that I can't remember the last time it happened. I ride defensively and predictably. I don't run red lights or stop signs, I use hand signals when there are cars present, and I don't ride any further to the left than I really need to, but I do NOT hug the curb. If you follow the laws, ride sensibly, and behave like you have a right to be there, it's really pretty simple to co-exist w/ drivers.
    Last edited by mudge; 07-08-2010 at 10:51 PM.

  42. #42
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    So...

    You were on Apple Valley at lunch...if you were riding Hall Ranch, I doubt that you would've had a problem (no duellies allowed).

    Wait...is this RoadBikeReview?
    MY dog can lick YOUR dog!

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudge
    You clearly don't understand the law. It says you may not ride more than two abreast, and shall not ride two abreast when impeding traffic. Impeding traffic does not mean that a driver has to slow until safe to pass, or that they have to cross the center line to avoid striking the cyclists. Impeding traffic means that you've essentially brought traffic to a stop because the conditions just flat don't allow passing.
    You need to read the law in its entirety.

    The section that supercedes the "2 abreast" portion states;

    (5) (a) ANY PERSON OPERATING A BICYCLE UPON A ROADWAY AT LESS THAN THE NORMAL SPEED OF TRAFFIC SHALL RIDE IN THE RIGHT-HAND LANE, SUBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS:


    (I) IF THE RIGHT-HAND LANE THEN AVAILABLE FOR TRAFFIC IS WIDE ENOUGH TO BE SAFELY SHARED WITH OVERTAKING VEHICLES, A BICYCLIST SHALL RIDE FAR ENOUGH TO THE RIGHT AS JUDGED SAFE BY THE BICYCLIST TO FACILITATE THE MOVEMENT OF SUCH OVERTAKING VEHICLES UNLESS OTHER CONDITIONS MAKE IT UNSAFE TO DO SO.

    A) There is no way riding 2 abreast allows the road to be safely shared with overtaking vehicles.

    B) If cyclists choose to push this issue, we are asking for the next anti-cycling politician to put hard and fast defintions to "impeding the normal and reasonable movement of traffic".

    & C) Bicycle Colorado suggests the SIDE-BY-SIDE RULE: Ride no more than two abreast; move to single-file if riding two abreast impedes the flow of motorized traffic. On curving canyon roads without bike lanes or shoulders, play it safe and ride single file


    They also suggest following the 3-2-1 Code..

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    The driver sounds like a real a**hole but...

    If I remember correctly--and I may not--there is a sign on Apple Valley road that says something to the effect of "Bikes ride single file"

    ...which could possibly explain his vindictive a**rage, though not necessarily justify it.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail

    "Isn't this the hot line to report aggressive drivers?"

    "Yes sir. But you were on a bicycle and you'll need to contact your local PD. There's nothing we can do."

    Give it a try sometime. Maybe you'll have better luck than I did?
    Outstanding
    Sadly this is not supprising ... and likely not too far off from the response you may have received after contacting the PD ... bummer.
    “Me fail english? Thats unpossible.” - Matt Groening

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    You need to read the law in its entirety.

    The section that supercedes the "2 abreast" portion states;

    (5) (a) ANY PERSON OPERATING A BICYCLE UPON A ROADWAY AT LESS THAN THE NORMAL SPEED OF TRAFFIC SHALL RIDE IN THE RIGHT-HAND LANE, SUBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS:


    (I) IF THE RIGHT-HAND LANE THEN AVAILABLE FOR TRAFFIC IS WIDE ENOUGH TO BE SAFELY SHARED WITH OVERTAKING VEHICLES, A BICYCLIST SHALL RIDE FAR ENOUGH TO THE RIGHT AS JUDGED SAFE BY THE BICYCLIST TO FACILITATE THE MOVEMENT OF SUCH OVERTAKING VEHICLES UNLESS OTHER CONDITIONS MAKE IT UNSAFE TO DO SO.

    A) There is no way riding 2 abreast allows the road to be safely shared with overtaking vehicles.

    B) If cyclists choose to push this issue, we are asking for the next anti-cycling politician to put hard and fast defintions to "impeding the normal and reasonable movement of traffic".

    & C) Bicycle Colorado suggests the SIDE-BY-SIDE RULE: Ride no more than two abreast; move to single-file if riding two abreast impedes the flow of motorized traffic. On curving canyon roads without bike lanes or shoulders, play it safe and ride single file


    They also suggest following the 3-2-1 Code..
    Geez, I sure hope you're not an attorney.

    So, exactly what about those parts you've highlighted prevent, or even suggest, that riding two abreast isn't allowed? As I look at your item A), it appears to me that you believe that safely passing means that the car has the full 3 ft required w/out crossing the center line while passing. What the red highlighted section means is that if the lane is NOT wide enough for you to ride to the right while allowing a car room to pass with the required 3 ft in a fashion that you the rider deem safe, you are not obligated to try and make it safe by riding too far to the right (a common misconception of drivers, and apparently roadie-hating mountainbikers).

    There is absolutely nothing in the law that requires a cyclist to ride so far to the right as to be a hazard to themselves, and nothing that says you must ride so far to the right that a car can pass w/out crossing the center line to do so. Are you suggesting that riding two abreast can not be done without extending all the way into the left lane (the only way that riding two abreast can be done while allowing safe passing). Cars have, and should exercise, the option to move as far into the left lane as necessary to insure the 3 ft buffer while passing. They do it all the time when passing other cars, you know, and there's no reason that a driver should ever try to squeeze by a cyclist w/out at least crossing the center line, at least in part if not fully, while passing a cyclist. What your red highlighted portion states is that IF the cyclist feels that the lane is wide enough that he can safely ride far enough to the right that a car can pass w/ out crossing the center line, he should do so. That does not in any way put an obligation on the cyclist to ride in the gutter just so as to not inconvenience a driver in any way, such as requiring them to slow until it is safe to pass. The courts have never found that 'impeding' traffic includes a momentary slowing of a vehicle while waiting for a safe passing opportunity.

    As the law is written, it is the obligation of the driver to wait behind the cyclist until it is safe to pass, yet it does not state nor imply that if it is not possible to pass w/out crossing the center line and still have the required 3 ft, then forget the 3 ft and just squeeze by. As for practical application, if you are one of those riders who tries to make it easy on drivers to pass by squeezing over as far as possible, all you're doing is putting yourself at greater risk and encouraging drivers to pass you in an unsafe manner. You have a right to the safe usage of the lane which does not include being forced to grovel in the gutter. Take a reasonable portion of the lane and ride like you a right to be there ('cause you do).

    As for your statement that we as cyclists shouldn't push the issue(s) for fear of a backlash from the driving public, well... that's just nuts. With proper education everyone involved can come to understand the law and accept it for what it's intended, that being a way that everyone can exercise their rights w/out unduly affecting others.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    Ever get behind a piece of heavy equipment on the road? Farm tractor? Combine? Grandma in a motorhome? Person walking on the side of the road way? What difference does it make? You don't pass until it's safe to do so. That's the driver's responsibility, not the passee's.
    Agreed completely. I'm not saying it's right to run people off the road, what I am saying is that if road geeks want to ride in the self righteous fashion of trying to show how important they are & that they "have a right" to be a f***ing nuisance, things like this will happen.

    If you want to take common sense out of the equation, sure, it's legal to ride two abreast on a narrow winding road, but the reality is, it's stupid & irresponsible.

    Mudge, obviously you don't ride in the manner you suggest is allowed by law if you have no problems co-existing with vehicular traffic. Obviously you ride with more common sense than the argument you're making suggests.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  48. #48
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    CSP is Colorado State Patrol for DUI and agressive drives on state and federal highways. Not much they can do about a jerk on nevada. Im sure the call would have different if you called from your car on I-25. It did not have anything to do with what you were riding it was more of the placement of your call. Not putting a dog in the fight just pointing things out so that the local or state people trying to help are not under attack next in internet flame wars.

    Also remeber that bikers are guest on the roads, roads were built for cars. Ride like a guest unless your the guy that go to friends house and walks in and grabs a beer and slaps your buddys wife on the ass and sits down and changes the channel on the tv cause its your right to watch what you want and do what you want cause doing all these things in not technicaly against the law * just stupidcause you are a guest and pretty sure you will make the owner of the house and remote mad.


    *(well expect slapping wife, but you can choose which laws to follow as long as it suits your needs)

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    Agreed completely. I'm not saying it's right to run people off the road, what I am saying is that if road geeks want to ride in the self righteous fashion of trying to show how important they are & that they "have a right" to be a f***ing nuisance, things like this will happen.

    If you want to take common sense out of the equation, sure, it's legal to ride two abreast on a narrow winding road, but the reality is, it's stupid & irresponsible.

    Mudge, obviously you don't ride in the manner you suggest is allowed by law if you have no problems co-existing with vehicular traffic. Obviously you ride with more common sense than the argument you're making suggests.
    Sorry, but no... I don't have problems with traffic and I do in fact ride within my rights as outlined in the law. It's not mutually exclusive. The key is to not push it. Yeah, the law says you have the right to the entire lane if safety conditions warrant it, but it rarely happens that way. So, unless I'm descending somewhere where I can clearly maintain the speed limit (not just a normal speed) or if it's a street with a really low speed limit where I can keep up w/ the reasonable flow of traffic, I don't ride too far into the lane. But, I ride far enough into the lane that a driver must cross the center line. Maybe not fully into the left lane, but at least across it. Riding so far to the right as to encourage a driver to try to pass w/out crossing the center line puts you at significantly greater risk. I just won't do it. Of course, I recognize that while in a practical sense it doesn't matter if I'm 3 ft from the gutter or smack dab in the center of the lane, if you do ride further into the lane than necessary all it does is piss people off. So, I don't.

    I've learned some tricks over the years, too. For example, when you have a car that has slowed behind you to wait till it's safe to pass, give 'em a polite wave with the left hand as they start to pass (you can tell from the engine noise when they're accelerating). It's a way of saying 'thanks for not running over me'. You'd be surprised how many drivers wave back. At a minimum you've created a tiny bit of good will.

    Speaking of tricks, want to know how to prevent the sort of hateful stares and sometimes rude or aggressive remarks you get while riding on bike paths and having to pass people out walking their dogs? Pay a compliment to their dog. In over a decade of doing that, not once has the dog owner failed to smile back at me or even say something nice in return. Instead of them resenting me, they smile and move over.

    Funny how civility can really go far in making things better.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    Agreed completely. I'm not saying it's right to run people off the road, what I am saying is that if road geeks want to ride in the self righteous fashion of trying to show how important they are & that they "have a right" to be a f***ing nuisance, things like this will happen.

    If you want to take common sense out of the equation, sure, it's legal to ride two abreast on a narrow winding road, but the reality is, it's stupid & irresponsible.

    Mudge, obviously you don't ride in the manner you suggest is allowed by law if you have no problems co-existing with vehicular traffic. Obviously you ride with more common sense than the argument you're making suggests.
    What's telling is how folks characterize road cyclists and how it reflects their bias. Cyclists are always portrayed by these types as self righteous geeks, fags, fairies, whatever (keeping in mind that these folks constantly state how dangerous it is to ride the road and how they're too scared to do it).

    So it comes down to this: a fellow cyclists gets brushed back by a motorist and you blame the cyclist and you defend the actions of the motorist because he's been inconvenienced by said cyclist. Hell, we all know that if you're inconvenienced while driving, that's just cause to endanger the life of some *** roadie. Come on, that's crazy right? It's like saying the woman got raped because she was asking for it by the clothes she wore.

    Cyclists have a legal right to safely travel on roads. They are not guests, second class citizens, or targets. They're cyclists, just like you.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    What's telling is how folks characterize road cyclists and how it reflects their bias. Cyclists are always portrayed by these types as self righteous geeks, fags, fairies, whatever (keeping in mind that these folks constantly state how dangerous it is to ride the road and how they're too scared to do it).

    So it comes down to this: a fellow cyclists gets brushed back by a motorist and you blame the cyclist and you defend the actions of the motorist because he's been inconvenienced by said cyclist. Hell, we all know that if you're inconvenienced while driving, that's just cause to endanger the life of some *** roadie. Come on, that's crazy right? It's like saying the woman got raped because she was asking for it by the clothes she wore.

    Cyclists have a legal right to safely travel on roads. They are not guests, second class citizens, or targets. They're cyclists, just like you.
    ^This^

  52. #52
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    What if

    I just ride my Mountain bike on the road? I'm sure that will inoculate me against road rage. I'm sure it was the road bike and lycra that caused it.

    Man, but now I'm totally confused. What I was riding my cyclocross bike? Shoot, what category would I then be in? Not quite a roadie-***-target, but not quite a self-righteous mountain-bike-only-roadie-hater.

    How about if I ride my cross bike (with a reflector, of course) and split it down the middle... wearing baggies of course (but a road lycra jersey so I don't get too uppity and think I'm not a roadie ***)? Would I also need a helmet with a visor? Would I have to seek written permission from both the State of Colorado and the municipality of Lyons to be a guest on the roads in the County which I live and pay taxes in?

    I'm so confused.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    What's telling is how folks characterize road cyclists and how it reflects their bias. Cyclists are always portrayed by these types as self righteous geeks, fags, fairies, whatever (keeping in mind that these folks constantly state how dangerous it is to ride the road and how they're too scared to do it).

    So it comes down to this: a fellow cyclists gets brushed back by a motorist and you blame the cyclist and you defend the actions of the motorist because he's been inconvenienced by said cyclist. Hell, we all know that if you're inconvenienced while driving, that's just cause to endanger the life of some *** roadie. Come on, that's crazy right? It's like saying the woman got raped because she was asking for it by the clothes she wore.

    Cyclists have a legal right to safely travel on roads. They are not guests, second class citizens, or targets. They're cyclists, just like you.
    Road geeks are road geeks... how ever you look at it... C'mon, look at the outfits!!! (sorry, I used to race alpine & also made fun of our geeky outfits, it didn't mean we deserved to be hit by someone!) I joke about roadies, some I have no issue with, but the ones that can't think in the ways that mudge mentioned & are a nuisance, are exactly that. This DOES NOT mean they deserve to be run over, by ANY means... But if you want to make a point about how you deserve to be a nuisance, bad things will eventually happen, whether by a jackass like this guy or unintentionally by someone who is incapable of driving in the lane even when it's empty. My point isn't that it excuses the driver's behavior, my point is that if you can't ride with common sense, (in any situation) and you expect some rule to keep you safe, life isn't going to go well for you.

    IF you're safe & intelligent, you're going about your legal right to travel on the road... the same as cars, unfortunately I often see completely asinine riding habits from the roadies that feel they're entitled to make a hazard of themselves relatively often.

    Btw mudge, those things you mentioned... the little tips, they work well for ALL of us, it never hurts to make a point of being friendly! (I snowmobile, but have no desire to hate or be hated by the other people out there, and little things like you mention go a long way in that situation as well)

    I drive about 650 miles a week, rarely dipping below 8k. I see a lot of stupid stuff, and it frustrates me that people are incapable of thinking about the reality of the situation & the danger they place themselves in.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  54. #54
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    Apple Valley road is a winding residential asphalt road. It is center striped with no shoulder markings (too narrow) and it's marked at 25mph. If 2 cyclists are legally riding 2 abreast and a car is approaching at 25mph, it's a very much not hazardous situation. Problem is, it's rare that I ever see motor vehicles traveling as slow as 25mph.

    Sorry to hear of your incident, yogidave. I'll keep my eyes peeled for a redneck blue duallie with a bike in the back.

    Here's a challenge to all you Antelope trailhead parkers. Check your speed on Apple Valley Rd. It might be yogidave you run off the road or it might be my wife with a jog stroller or my retired neighbors walking down the road or kids playing in the road or... You get it. This isn't a highway we're talking about. It's a rural residential road and there's no reason to get your panties in a bunch about riding 2 abreast on Apple Valley.

    ps. I sold all of my road bikes
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    It might be yogidave you run off the road or it might be my wife with a jog stroller or my retired neighbors walking down the road or kids playing in the road or...
    Which is why Yogi shoulda said something to the perp. Let this guy know there are HUMAN BEINGS on this road. That element is often lost in vehicles, and I'd bet he'd act a bit different outside of his 6-wheeler (like 99% of drivers, self-included).

  56. #56
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    With all respect to the OP, I still don't get the mentality of riding two abreast in the roadway. Yes, you may have the legal right (although I would call temporarily slowing down the flow of traffic "impeding") and yes, the driver of that truck is a total ass, but seriously, you know there are a lot of a-holes out there with an ax to grind and just as many folks that are simply bad drivers. When you do eventually get hit by one of these vehicles is it really going to do you any good to be RIGHT when you're dead or disabled?

    As a previous poster said, bike defensively. They teach kids in Driver's Ed to expect that the other person will do something wrong. Asserting your right to ride 2 abreast on a road with no shoulders is about as bright as blindly rolling through a busy intersection without looking at the cars. The little WALK light isn't going to stop a seven thousand pound truck from rolling over your mangled body.

    Laws of physics > laws of man.

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    Not the way it's supposed to work...

    http://bicyclecolo.org/page.cfm?pageId=731

    Sad but true, but not everyone knows everything about their jobs... so, the rest of the communication could have been:

    "Thanks, but can you please tell me your name and please transfer me to your supervisor..."

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail
    Maybe someone else had had a better experience reporting aggressive drivers? I would love to know.

    Here was my experience.

    "Hello, CSP"

    "Hello, I was riding my bike down a street in downtown C/S and a guy in a pickup coming down a side street and ran his stop sign while looking right at me, almost hitting me on purpose. I had to skid to avoid crashing into the side of his truck. When I caught up to him and asked him why he ran the stop sign, he threatened me. I have his license plate number and vehicle description for you."

    "Sorry sir. You'll need to call your local PD. There's nothing we can do about that."

    "Isn't this the hot line to report aggressive drivers?"

    "Yes sir. But you were on a bicycle and you'll need to contact your local PD. There's nothing we can do."

    Give it a try sometime. Maybe you'll have better luck than I did?

  58. #58
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    Point taken...

    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    With all respect to the OP, I still don't get the mentality of riding two abreast in the roadway. Yes, you may have the legal right (although I would call temporarily slowing down the flow of traffic "impeding") and yes, the driver of that truck is a total ass, but seriously, you know there are a lot of a-holes out there with an ax to grind and just as many folks that are simply bad drivers. When you do eventually get hit by one of these vehicles is it really going to do you any good to be RIGHT when you're dead or disabled?

    As a previous poster said, bike defensively. They teach kids in Driver's Ed to expect that the other person will do something wrong. Asserting your right to ride 2 abreast on a road with no shoulders is about as bright as blindly rolling through a busy intersection without looking at the cars. The little WALK light isn't going to stop a seven thousand pound truck from rolling over your mangled body.

    Laws of physics > laws of man.
    about riding 2-abreast. Realistically, the space between the 2 dudes in front was no more than a foot and probably less. The Guy on the right was on the white line and we where not on a blind curve, though there are several on Apple Valley. Still on that road, 2-abreast might not be the best idea.

    We would have gotten out of the way if he gave us the chance. This wasn't one of those "I'm goona stand my ground!" kinda things.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    With all respect to the OP, I still don't get the mentality of riding two abreast in the roadway. Yes, you may have the legal right (although I would call temporarily slowing down the flow of traffic "impeding") and yes, the driver of that truck is a total ass, but seriously, you know there are a lot of a-holes out there with an ax to grind and just as many folks that are simply bad drivers. When you do eventually get hit by one of these vehicles is it really going to do you any good to be RIGHT when you're dead or disabled?

    As a previous poster said, bike defensively. They teach kids in Driver's Ed to expect that the other person will do something wrong. Asserting your right to ride 2 abreast on a road with no shoulders is about as bright as blindly rolling through a busy intersection without looking at the cars. The little WALK light isn't going to stop a seven thousand pound truck from rolling over your mangled body.

    Laws of physics > laws of man.
    Because road riding on back roads can be social just like MTBing. If you hear a car approaching, it's "car back!" and everyone gets in line. It's simple courtesy. Obviously not everyone does this and I've been snuck up on by cars lots of times myself if my attention wanders or it's windy. Bottom line it's no big deal and the inconvenience to the driver is minimal. The drivers who have a problem are the same one's who are a problem everywhere, you know, the ones already talking/texting on his cell, applying mascara, eating a donut, radio blasting, and swigging down a rock star all at the same time.

    In my experience, the US is the only place this anti-cyclist road rage BS happens. Every other country I been to the drivers are considerate, give you room, pass when it's safe as long as you hold your line. I think it's because drivers there see the bike for what it is, transportation. Here, they see you as an inconvenience that cost them that valuable 5-seconds on their way to the couch so they might as well try to kill you for it.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    Because road riding on back roads can be social just like MTBing. If you hear a car approaching, it's "car back!" and everyone gets in line. It's simple courtesy.
    I don't disagree, but unfortunately I think a lot of road bikers still don't get that "share the road" goes both ways. This doesn't sound like the OP's case, but bikers that intentionally slow down traffic, whether they have the right to or not, are what spark hatred for bikes in so many drivers.

    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    The drivers who have a problem are the same one's who are a problem everywhere, you know, the ones already talking/texting on his cell, applying mascara, eating a donut, radio blasting, and swigging down a rock star all at the same time.
    This is my point.. if you know that these people are out there, everywhere, why would you ride two abreast in the middle of the road and entrust your life to them reacting appropriately? When you get mowed over by a stoned 16 year old it'll be wrong, but not unexpected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    With all respect to the OP, I still don't get the mentality of riding two abreast in the roadway. Yes, you may have the legal right (although I would call temporarily slowing down the flow of traffic "impeding") and yes, the driver of that truck is a total ass, but seriously, you know there are a lot of a-holes out there with an ax to grind and just as many folks that are simply bad drivers. When you do eventually get hit by one of these vehicles is it really going to do you any good to be RIGHT when you're dead or disabled?

    As a previous poster said, bike defensively. They teach kids in Driver's Ed to expect that the other person will do something wrong. Asserting your right to ride 2 abreast on a road with no shoulders is about as bright as blindly rolling through a busy intersection without looking at the cars. The little WALK light isn't going to stop a seven thousand pound truck from rolling over your mangled body.

    Laws of physics > laws of man.
    As crazy as this may seem to you, you are safer when riding two abreast most of the time. You are easier to see and drivers know immediately that they must cross the center line to pass you. Most drivers, the VAST majority in fact, will give an incredible amount of room as they pass once their left tires cross the center line. It's only when you ride so far to the right that they think they can squeeze by without crossing the line at all, that they try to squeeze by. Make 'em cross the line, and everybody is safer.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudge
    As crazy as this may seem to you, you are safer when riding two abreast most of the time. You are easier to see and drivers know immediately that they must cross the center line to pass you. Most drivers, the VAST majority in fact, will give an incredible amount of room as they pass once their left tires cross the center line. It's only when you ride so far to the right that they think they can squeeze by without crossing the line at all, that they try to squeeze by. Make 'em cross the line, and everybody is safer.
    I have got to disagree again.

    You may be easier to see, but I would bet anything you would like to bet that a VAST majority of motorists do not know that a solid line can be legally crossed to pass a bicyclist. I would also bet that even though they are aware of the addition of the 3' to pass law, they have no idea that the "must ride single file" wording was removed from the books at the same time.

    So basically, you are banking your life on the ignorance and agression of some random clown on the road. The whole situation is frustrating, but the fact is, we remain the victim when something goes wrong.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    I have got to disagree again.

    You may be easier to see, but I would bet anything you would like to bet that a VAST majority of motorists do not know that a solid line can be legally crossed to pass a bicyclist. I would also bet that even though they are aware of the addition of the 3' to pass law, they have no idea that the "must ride single file" wording was removed from the books at the same time.

    So basically, you are banking your life on the ignorance and agression of some random clown on the road. The whole situation is frustrating, but the fact is, we remain the victim when something goes wrong.
    So, you think that just 'cause the typical driver isn't aware of the changes in the law they'll just run over you?? I've been road riding for over 25 years, many of those years racking up over 10k miles a year, and from my real world experience I'll tell you that in many situations you're safer riding two abreast. I'll also state definitively that if you ride responsibly and behave like you're a legal vehicle instead of an intruder on the rights of drivers, you'll be better off. You don't have to believe it, I'm just giving you my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mudge
    I'll also state definitively that if you ride responsibly and behave like you're a legal vehicle instead of an intruder on the rights of drivers, you'll be better off.
    Meh.. like the guy going down the middle of the lane doing 35mph with a line of a dozen cars behind him because he's *almost* doing the speed limit? He may be within his "rights", and yes, people shouldn't speed - but the reality is there are now 20 people thinking "get the fvck out of the way" and building up a frustration that will likely manifest itself as a general dislike for all bikers. Screw common sense.. you got a right to hold up traffic dammit!

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    I don't disagree, but unfortunately I think a lot of road bikers still don't get that "share the road" goes both ways. This doesn't sound like the OP's case, but bikers that intentionally slow down traffic, whether they have the right to or not, are what spark hatred for bikes in so many drivers.


    This is my point.. if you know that these people are out there, everywhere, why would you ride two abreast in the middle of the road and entrust your life to them reacting appropriately? When you get mowed over by a stoned 16 year old it'll be wrong, but not unexpected.
    Come on, Thump. That stoned 16 year old could mow you over crossing the street. Or your kid. Or you in your car. You guys are making mountains out of molehills. I've ridden thousands and thousands of miles on the road, I used to compete in events like the Denver to Aspen Classic, I've cycle toured all over. I've never been hit, but I ride defensively and I will take the lane if I have/need to. I'm not going to quit riding my bike on the road just because the boogie man might run me over any more than I'm going to quit riding my MTB because I'm afraid of being the next Tara Llanes or going into the back country because I'm afraid of mountain lions.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    It's like saying the woman got raped because she was asking for it by the clothes she wore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by karpiel666
    I'm assuming you all had a single, red reflector facing rearwards, if not, you broke the law as well. You can't have it both ways, if you pick and chose which laws to follow, why cant he?


    You stop at every stop sign and always use had signals, right?

    Learn to share the road, buddy.


    I assume riders who aren't following the law wont care if I don't either.
    Yeah, 'cause death threats, assault and attempted murder are the same as going through a stop-sign...
    C'mon, think.
    Nobody follows the rules of the road be they drivers or cyclists.
    - It's rare when someone drives the speed limit, it will actually piss off the people behind you.
    - It's rare to see a car come to a full stop at any stop sign where there's a good view of traffic on the cross street.
    - It's not uncommon to see drivers change lanes without indicating.
    - It's not uncommon to see people passing on the right on the highway, especially if the person in the left lane is *gasp* driving the speed limit.
    etc. etc. etc...

    All of these things are illegal but in the real world, done by an alert driver, they probably aren't all that dangerous, certainly no less so than a cyclist going through a stop sign when they judge it safe to do so.

    By your argument it's okay for me to threaten, assault or attempt to murder any driver who breaks the law (read: any driver full-stop or at least 99.9% of them).
    Get off your high horse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    Come on, Thump....
    My point wasn't about avoiding the inherent dangers of road riding, it was about increased risks of riding two abreast in the middle of the lane. Anyhow.. this horse is long dead. Ride on.

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    If you really feel like you were in the right why didn't you go approach the guy? I'm not saying to go fight the guy but hell, I'd damn sure roll up and a.) get a plate number and b.) ask what's up, MF'r?


    -actually I'd leave the MF'r out, but add it to my story later to sound tough!
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  70. #70
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    The real problem with roadies is they are all likely legally retarded. Why else would you drive, to bike, recreationally, on a highway with a 55mph limit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qatarbhoy
    I have to ask for them to do a "Number two" on my head

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by karpiel666
    The real problem with roadies is they are all likely legally retarded. Why else would you drive, to bike, recreationally, on a highway with a 55mph limit.
    You drive to ride on a road? You're a moran.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by karpiel666
    The real problem with roadies is they are all likely legally retarded. Why else would you drive, to bike, recreationally, on a highway with a 55mph limit.
    Bingo.

    The triple bypass was coming through the county this morning, blocking my ability to get out of my road... As we sat there watching them all go by I explained to a couple of them that there were mountain bike trails nearly & they didn't HAVE to ride one the road. Oddly enough none of them took me up on the offer to find said trails... Go figure huh??
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudge
    So, you think that just 'cause the typical driver isn't aware of the changes in the law they'll just run over you?? I've been road riding for over 25 years, many of those years racking up over 10k miles a year, and from my real world experience I'll tell you that in many situations you're safer riding two abreast. I'll also state definitively that if you ride responsibly and behave like you're a legal vehicle instead of an intruder on the rights of drivers, you'll be better off. You don't have to believe it, I'm just giving you my experience.
    I wasn't saying that because motorists don't know the laws, they will run you down. I was saying that it's because they don't know them, that they are more likely to try to make close and dangerous passes at best.

    I have just as much real world road riding experience as you do, and I will continue to disagree with you.

    I have always ridden responsibly and as a legal vehicle, but have many times been the victim of verbal harrassments, and twice, projectiles. I was even hit by a car making an illegal turn, for which I received a concussion, a destroyed bike, and a ticket from some old POS Ft Collins cop who seemed to think that because there was a bike involved, the driver of the car could not have been at fault.

    My experience is that an @sshole is an @sshole no matter what the law says, and we cylclists are at their mercy. You can't count on anyone else for your safety. Just look at the posts from our "fellow cyclists" in this thread.

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    No good

    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    Bingo.

    The triple bypass was coming through the county this morning, blocking my ability to get out of my road... As we sat there watching them all go by I explained to a couple of them that there were mountain bike trails nearly & they didn't HAVE to ride one the road. Oddly enough none of them took me up on the offer to find said trails... Go figure huh??
    Brilliant, suggesting people ride road bikes on mountain bike trails. Wish it was me that you encountered.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmTee
    If I remember correctly--and I may not--there is a sign on Apple Valley road that says something to the effect of "Bikes ride single file"
    My bad, they've taken them down, I just drove there today. You can still see the blurry evidence of them in Google Street View.

    Nonetheless, driving 2 abreast on Apply Valley Road is still stupid (at least at the south end). A driver is apt to nearly hit someone getting their mail on that road, much less you two. Nearly every turn is blind and there is no shoulder on either side (again, at the south end).

    ...You'd almost be better off taking up the whole lane and trying to keep near the 25 speed limit. They'd likely wait til after turns to try and pass you.

    ...but then again I've seen people biking up 119 to Nederlund... some roads just aren't great for road biking, yet people still have to exercise their god given right to be wherever the hell they please.

    Try to remember that roads are infrastructure, a majority (more than half) of the traffic on them is taking people or goods to somewhere it needs to be. You're just trying to get a workout in. If you banned road bikes from roads, you'd have a spandex riot. If you banned vehicles from roads, you'd have economic failure. Sure the law says you're totally equal, but many drivers, especially ones with no passion for cycling, are never going to see it that way.

    You can try to fight the good fight, but in the end, a motorway, especially one not designed for it, is ill-suited for pedal-powered machinery. Interstates and toll roads ban stuff smaller than 250cc for a reason.

    You should choose your rides where it'll be convenient for both you and the drivers, or perhaps move out to rural Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, Missouri....you get the idea.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by tysonxj
    Brilliant, suggesting people ride road bikes on mountain bike trails. Wish it was me that you encountered.

    Yeah spanky, I figured they'd come ride pavilion pt on an S1...

    Are you by chance sarcasm deficient? (it's an unfortunate affliction that affects millions every year...) The point of the post was, who in their right mind has a desire to hang out on the road on purpose?

    I just figured that all those people got lost & couldn't find a place that was actually FUN to ride!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  77. #77
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    Apple Valley used to be a quiet, serene road 'til they opened up that trailhead. Just sayin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ignazjr
    Apple Valley used to be a quiet, serene road 'til they opened up that trailhead. Just sayin.
    People actually fight for a parking spot up there? Just ride from town.

    I guess those Red Gulch folks were right all along.

  79. #79
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    Go USA!

    Quote Originally Posted by concretejungle
    You drive to ride on a road? You're a moran.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qatarbhoy
    I have to ask for them to do a "Number two" on my head

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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    Yeah spanky, I figured they'd come ride pavilion pt on an S1...

    Are you by chance sarcasm deficient? (it's an unfortunate affliction that affects millions every year...) The point of the post was, who in their right mind has a desire to hang out on the road on purpose?

    I just figured that all those people got lost & couldn't find a place that was actually FUN to ride!!!
    You have made your opinion sufficiently clear...you don't have the guts to ride the road...fine. Why must you insist everyone share your opinion?

    Why do some insist that cyclists only ride roads for their own personal selfish workouts? Some people actually use bikes as their primary transport...I realize that here in Colorado, those people are called socialists, but in many other parts of the country they are actually viewed as human beings, citizens, and worthy of the right to travel safely, by any means they choose. For such a beautiful state, with a great interest in cycling, Colorado has proven itself to be less than accepting of cyclists, and unfortunately, lacking in respect for their fellow citizens.

    If mankind's history were full of people who gave up because "common sense" told them their actions were dangerous, I don't believe we'd have come as far as a species as we have. I've never really backed down from bullies and intimidation. I have ridden thousands of miles on roads, and some posters are correct...I have a right to be there, and if I do it correctly, affirming my right to the road, I increase my personal safety.

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    Commuters rarely ride 2 abreast.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by plaidvillain
    Some people actually use bikes as their primary transport...I realize that here in Colorado, those people are called socialists, but in many other parts of the country they are actually viewed as human beings, citizens, and worthy of the right to travel safely, by any means they choose.
    What in the world makes someone biking to work a socialist??? I'd LOVE to be able to bike to work (I'm too big a panzy to do it though where I live & work!!). I used to ride my road bike 48 miles a day to work, on backroads, single file (umm, it was just me so yeah...) but I didn't wear spandex, so it was ok!!
    I did have a car, so it was by choice... so I guess you could call it recreating to an extent, but I just see riding to work in an intelligent manner a bit different than riding two or more abreast recreating on roads that are ill fit for the sport.

    Not having to drive a car to work...
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    What in the world makes someone biking to work a socialist??? I'd LOVE to be able to bike to work (I'm too big a panzy to do it though where I live & work!!). I used to ride my road bike 48 miles a day to work, on backroads, single file (umm, it was just me so yeah...) but I didn't wear spandex, so it was ok!!
    I rode my AM bike for about 4 hours yesterday and I wore spandex. I wonder what that makes me...

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    I rode my AM bike for about 4 hours yesterday and I wore spandex. I wonder what that makes me...
    Trailwrecker at large

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    I rode my AM bike for about 4 hours yesterday and I wore spandex. I wonder what that makes me...
    Full of it.. We all know you don't have enough time between interweb postings to actually ride.


  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump
    Full of it.. We all know you don't have enough time between interweb postings to actually ride.

    Poppycock! I'm going to ride again tonight. And tomorrow morning.

  87. #87
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    To the OP. Weather you are legal or not why try to
    Prove a point. Never helps if one of ya get hit/killed. Eh?
    What does Marsellus Wallace look like, A BIT*H?

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottay5150
    To the OP. Weather you are legal or not why try to
    Prove a point. Never helps if one of ya get hit/killed. Eh?
    OP has mentioned that he got surprised, doesn't sound like he was trying to prove anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by plaidvillain

    Why do some insist that cyclists only ride roads for their own personal selfish workouts? Some people actually use bikes as their primary transport...I realize that here in Colorado, those people are called socialists, but in many other parts of the country they are actually viewed as human beings, citizens, and worthy of the right to travel safely, by any means they choose. For such a beautiful state, with a great interest in cycling, Colorado has proven itself to be less than accepting of cyclists, and unfortunately, lacking in respect for their fellow citizens.

    If mankind's history were full of people who gave up because "common sense" told them their actions were dangerous, I don't believe we'd have come as far as a species as we have. I've never really backed down from bullies and intimidation. I have ridden thousands of miles on roads, and some posters are correct...I have a right to be there, and if I do it correctly, affirming my right to the road, I increase my personal safety.
    Wow, Atlas... how's your back?
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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by backcountryislife
    OP has mentioned that he got surprised, doesn't sound like he was trying to prove anything.
    Which means he was somehow unaware of the other vehicles on the road, not the best start.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qatarbhoy
    I have to ask for them to do a "Number two" on my head

  91. #91
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    Misinterpretation

    Quote Originally Posted by karpiel666
    Which means he was somehow unaware of the other vehicles on the road, not the best start.
    Of the word "surprise".....

    Meaning don't have eyes in the back of my head (and no, I don't have a helmet mirror either, my bad) and did not have knowledge of the truck's position until it was next to me and so close that I could *almost* touch it with my elbow w/o taking hands off the bars. There was no where to go on the road, except off of it.

    That is what is meant by surprise.

    Are you suggesting that I should have been able to hear the position of the truck?

    How should I be more "aware"?

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogidave

    Are you suggesting that I should have been able to hear the position of the truck?
    By definition, as we don't have eyes in the back of our heads, that is exactly how you know a big old truck is coming up behind you. If you weren't pulling a jeffco moron move & listening to your Ipod at full blast (since you were next to a buddy I doubt that was the case), if you didn't hear him, what else could you have done? (aside from just not being 2 abreast on a road that's less than fitting for it)

    Of the many thousands of miles I've put on the road, I can't say a big truck has ever gotten to where I could touch them without me knowing they were coming. You should really be more careful...
    Quote Originally Posted by thump View Post
    How about we take the "let it burn approach" with the rotting cesspool of the Denver metro?

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