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  1. #1
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    New question here. 4 Guys trashing Apex

    Ran into 4 guys yesterday evening trashing Enchanted and Apex by skidding their 2.5" freeride rear tires around every corner and switchback. I ended up passing them heading out of Enchanted on my cross-country bike with 2.0 pythons and NOT skidding everywhere.

    They seemed polite enough, but I was disappointed in the trail damage being done. And yes, I know Apex is already 'trashed' but now I am starting to see huge grooves caused by what I have to figure is intentional locking up of the rear tire coming into corners and switchbacks to swing the back end around MOTO style . Moto technique is fine on maintained trails like Keystone (they spend a ton of time working on trails because the cash from lift access ) but on a heavy use trail like Apex, conservation is in order.

    Thing is, I don't think that these guys knew how to use their front brakes! How do you teach that the front is for speed control?

    Bummer. How do we educate before we lose these trails?

    Concerned,
    IMBA & COMBA member
    Last edited by I_Ride; 06-26-2006 at 12:10 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Ride
    Thing is, I don't think that these guys knew how to use their front brakes! How do you teach that the front is for speed control?

    How do we educate before we lose these trails?
    Very simple, you tell them that skidding down multi-use trails is for half-wit hacks, and that
    they need to learn how to ride or stay away from our trails. Personally, I think that we ("we" being the DH community) need to go out of our way make a point with clowns like these since, to the uninitiated, they appear to be representative of our group.
    Now with more vitriol!

  3. #3
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    so you and they were stopped by each other long enough for you to read the size of their tires? Surely you could have spent the time talking to them rather than just get their tire size, classify them as "freeriders" and stir up yet more sh!t in this forum over the problems with human stupidity at apex?
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  4. #4
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    They spend lots of time working on the trails at Keystone? Which trails? I don't think I've ridden any there that have regular maintenance...
    Be nice if guys like those skidders would read signs at the trailhead, b/c then you could just post it there and not have to worry. But seeing as that's not gonna happen, a little spoken advice is probably the best we can do.
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  5. #5
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    A problem is still a problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    so you and they were stopped by each other long enough for you to read the size of their tires? Surely you could have spent the time talking to them rather than just get their tire size, classify them as "freeriders" and stir up yet more sh!t in this forum over the problems with human stupidity at apex?
    Apex is a problem... How do we solve it. Plugging our virtual ears by not "stirring up yet more sh!t" will not fix it. In response:

    Lets see here... Me, 140lbs guy. Them 160-180lbs each... Last time I stopped to have a civil conversation it just about ended up in me getting the crap beat out of me for simply offering some advice on how to run the corners faster. joy. I guess I could always head UP the trail if things got ugly.

    The reason I know at least one of the guys had a 2.5 on the back is I followed him for a bit before he 'fell over' and I think it was the same Hutchinson Octopus I ride on my other rig). I cannot say wiped out because that would imply that he had some speed.

    Maybe some signage about skidding?

  6. #6
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    Wes, this topic was chewed on pretty well three weeks ago, in the "Downhillers infest apex today" thread, Downhillers infesting Apex today
    If you haven't read it, give it a shot. My guess is many folks don't want to have this same discussion every three weeks for eternity. That is the reason for my sarcastic response.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    so you and they were stopped by each other long enough for you to read the size of their tires? Surely you could have spent the time talking to them rather than just get their tire size, classify them as "freeriders" and stir up yet more sh!t in this forum over the problems with human stupidity at apex?
    I agree, sorry, but this is just another "I hate everyone on Apex that has big tires and I gotta un-unite the MTB community again" thread. So did you follow them through Enchanted the whole way seeing the skids take place to know that they had done all of them?? I have 2.5's but on a rigid bike, that is a big generalization, once again sturring crap up. I get p1$$3d at all the XC guys (yes, I am one too), I mean they have been WAY worse to deal with then the DH guys as far as yielding. I mean seems as if knowone over there understands yield the trail except them (but I don't come on-line and bash them all after I ride there). And if you were by them and they were so nice why don't you use some people skills and try to educate them rather than coming on here and telling everyone how crappy riding at Apex is (THAT IS HOW YOU EDUCATE PEOPLE BTW, TALK TO THEM...make sure they understand they are doing things wrong, find out if it really was them, ect.)?? Have you done any trail work on Apex?? If you are really concerned you could start a trail day there or start a bike clinic. You do belong to IMBA so that is a good (many of us here also belong). Sorry for the rant but just go out there, ride and get over it!! There are problems with horses, hikers, many user groups...but we are all here b1tching about eachother...looks GREAT to the other user groups and our ability to be finite there if we can't come together as a collective group. Once again, sorry for the rant, but the answer is to tackle the problem head-on. You could have talked to them and you chose not to. Then you came on here to ask how to change the outcome and educate people, maybe we as humans need to ask these questions to ourselves first as a check to make sure we don't already have the answer. It is funny how it is ALWAYS Apex, doesn't anyone else find that fact interesting??
    Black Sheep...where it'ss at!!
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Ride
    Apex is a problem... How do we solve it. Plugging our virtual ears by not "stirring up yet more sh!t" will not fix it. In response:

    Lets see here... Me, 140lbs guy. Them 160-180lbs each... Last time I stopped to have a civil conversation it just about ended up in me getting the crap beat out of me for simply offering some advice on how to run the corners faster. joy. I guess I could always head UP the trail if things got ugly.

    The reason I know at least one of the guys had a 2.5 on the back is I followed him for a bit before he 'fell over' and I think it was the same Hutchinson Octopus I ride on my other rig). I cannot say wiped out because that would imply that he had some speed.

    Maybe some signage about skidding?
    TALK TO THEM...Yes you're 140...I'm less. Talk to them in a more polite manner?? And the comment about speed and falling over...Okay so now we have established they may be beginner and not know what they are doing is bad (you are bashing them again...publically...so what should you do to solve this, TALK TO THEM...don't keep bringing this crap here if it is avoidable!!). So now you are not sure about the rear tire?? Nice generalization then.
    Black Sheep...where it'ss at!!
    "I'm not known for my patience. Patience is a polite quality and often appropriate, but it rarely gets things done. Impatience, however, is the hunger for results and intolerance for excuses and delays." LA

  9. #9
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    B I N G O

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    Wes, this topic was chewed on pretty well three weeks ago, in the "Downhillers infest apex today" thread, Downhillers infesting Apex today
    If you haven't read it, give it a shot. My guess is many folks don't want to have this same discussion every three weeks for eternity. That is the reason for my sarcastic response.
    We have B I N G O!!!!
    Black Sheep...where it'ss at!!
    "I'm not known for my patience. Patience is a polite quality and often appropriate, but it rarely gets things done. Impatience, however, is the hunger for results and intolerance for excuses and delays." LA

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Ride
    Last time I stopped to have a civil conversation it just about ended up in me getting the crap beat out of me for simply offering some advice on how to run the corners faster.
    if that is the result when you try to have a civil conversation, then I can just imagine the results of one where you go in looking for a fight...

    If you had the opportunity to speak with them AT THE TIME, then that is when you could have expected the best results from action. Starting yet another apex thread here is going to have the same effect. Perhaps you need to work on your approach a little. If that doesn't work, do what I do. I carry a small aerosol can of pepper spray in the easy to reach side pocket of my camelback. Works well on dogs, rednecks, unruly downhillers, lycra-clad 22 pound bike riding xc guys [just joking to point out the unfairness of sterotyping]. I'm not kiding about the pepper spray though. Good 15 buck investment.
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  11. #11
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    Remember: "Skids are for kids."

    This message was brought to you by the number 8 and the letter K. ;-)
    Biker? I don't even know her.

  12. #12
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    miSSionary - I guess it came off as a "I hate .... Apex ... un-unite" thread. Maybe I could have named it differently like; "How do we educate the guys trashing Apex"

    "So did you follow them through Enchanted the whole way seeing the skids take place to know that they had done all of them??"
    I followed them down the last downhill section after the mini-bridge gully. I noticed a dust cloud as I came down the hill and came upon a guy sliding it around the corner (that's why I caught him)... He and the guy right in front of him were skidding around all the corners. I passed both of them at the exit to Apex where I then caught the other two guys that were riding in a similar style. My guess is that they all came from the same 'school' and the guy 'teaching' (the lead guy) would get pissy if I said anything... And YES; that is just a guess based on previous encounters with like riders. In their book, I or anyone else NOT in a Open Space or Forest Service uniform has no right to comment on riding style.

    Unfortunately, stopping and 'educating' is no longer an option for me. Too many times it has turned confrontational for me to attempt having a discussion any more.

    As far as trail maintenance, Yes I have done a bit and still donate a bit of cash to IMBA every year.

    "It is funny how it is ALWAYS Apex, doesn't anyone else find that fact interesting??"
    And yes it usually is Apex as it is the only shuttle available ride other than Falcon and that shuttle really sux.

  13. #13
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    Skids are 4 kids

    Quote Originally Posted by SylentK
    Remember: "Skids are for kids."

    This message was brought to you by the number 8 and the letter K. ;-)
    That's what I am talking about! How about some signs around Enchanted... "Skids are for kids"

  14. #14
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    Roughed up here too...

    I guess there is no sense it attempting to find a solution. As expected, it doesn't matter if you are on the trail or on a forum. You get roughed up for attempting to fix something.

    Figures.

    Nice posts miSSionary.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Ride
    Unfortunately, stopping and 'educating' is no longer an option for me. Too many times it has turned confrontational for me to attempt having a discussion any more.

    As far as trail maintenance, Yes I have done a bit and still donate a bit of cash to IMBA every year.

    "It is funny how it is ALWAYS Apex, doesn't anyone else find that fact interesting??"
    And yes it usually is Apex as it is the only shuttle available ride other than Falcon and that shuttle really sux.
    I_Ride,
    Thanks for responding, not trying to be mean but I guess you and I can agree to disagree. I am sorry but I feel if stopping and education is no longer an option then why are you on this board asking for advice on educating people?? If you are here just to rand that won't bring a good conclusion, this happens to always be a heated discusion.
    Nice about IMBA, we all need to do more of that for sure.
    Not true, you can shuttle Chimney, there are others.
    Anywhoo, seems as these guys may have been new to the sport, pointers may have been nice.
    Black Sheep...where it'ss at!!
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Ride
    I guess there is no sense it attempting to find a solution. As expected, it doesn't matter if you are on the trail or on a forum. You get roughed up for attempting to fix something.

    Figures.

    Nice posts miSSionary.
    No, here you are, bad aproach. Why am I singled out?? It's all my fault for discussing this with you huh?? Seriously, if you won't stop or try and educate why are you here asking for solutions...come on this is valid as a question??
    Black Sheep...where it'ss at!!
    "I'm not known for my patience. Patience is a polite quality and often appropriate, but it rarely gets things done. Impatience, however, is the hunger for results and intolerance for excuses and delays." LA

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Ride
    I guess there is no sense it attempting to find a solution. As expected, it doesn't matter if you are on the trail or on a forum. You get roughed up for attempting to fix something.

    Figures.

    Nice posts miSSionary.
    Judging from this post and what you said above; "Unfortunately, stopping and 'educating' is no longer an option for me. Too many times it has turned confrontational for me to attempt having a discussion any more.", it sounds like most of your interactions are confrontational, regardless of what the interaction is. You have not offered to fix anything here, from what I can read is you've just come here to vent, which in itself is okay, but perhaps you should intermingle the two. If you can't discuss this civily on or off the trail, then perhaps YOU have some things to work on. Fix yourself instead of trying to fix the world in order for it to work for you.
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  18. #18
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    fix myself...

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    Judging from this post and what you said above; "Unfortunately, stopping and 'educating' is no longer an option for me. Too many times it has turned confrontational for me to attempt having a discussion any more.", it sounds like most of your interactions are confrontational, regardless of what the interaction is. You have not offered to fix anything here, from what I can read is you've just come here to vent, which in itself is okay, but perhaps you should intermingle the two. If you can't discuss this civily on or off the trail, then perhaps YOU have some things to work on. Fix yourself instead of trying to fix the world in order for it to work for you.
    I was looking for a non-confrontational way of educating... Flyers, signs, etc.

    I think the reason that it tends to get confrontational with me is that I am a small guy. (As a note, my wife has had DH guys as Green Mountain threaten her when she attempted to educate them on the "uphill has the right-of-way" rule.) 4 larger guys will ALWAYS make things confrontational when it is with ONE smaller guy. It is just the way it is.

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    perhaps you should carry TWO of these then:

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Ride
    I was looking for a non-confrontational way of educating... Flyers, signs, etc.

    I think the reason that it tends to get confrontational with me is that I am a small guy. (As a note, my wife has had DH guys as Green Mountain threaten her when she attempted to educate them on the "uphill has the right-of-way" rule.) 4 larger guys will ALWAYS make things confrontational when it is with ONE smaller guy. It is just the way it is.
    I_Ride,
    You are confrontational. You said they were downhillers, then you said they had big tires but couldn't stay up (meaning you think you are a better rider or they are beginers). I gave you advice, you didn't like it. I said we could agree to disagree and you thanked me for my posts...though I have a feeling you were not sincere as the little guy banging his head into the wall. You keep blaming it on you being small (I am still your size or smaller). You believe because there is one of you and four of them that something aweful may happen if you even say a word (glad I don't live with that kind of fear in life, seriously, that's not healthy). You came here to ask how to handle something you don't want to get your hands dirty handling. Well put your big girl panties on and go ride your bike, then when you want to B1TCH about everyone remember...YOU ARE FORTUNATE TO BE ABLE TO DO THESE THINGS IN SUCH A BEAUTIFUL PLACE...and since you won't confront them anymore, remember what a great ride you had and have a beer...life is too short man, or maybe it's you!!
    Black Sheep...where it'ss at!!
    "I'm not known for my patience. Patience is a polite quality and often appropriate, but it rarely gets things done. Impatience, however, is the hunger for results and intolerance for excuses and delays." LA

  21. #21
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    Words to Action...

    Quote Originally Posted by miSSionary
    I_Ride,
    You are confrontational. You said they were downhillers, then you said they had big tires but couldn't stay up (meaning you think you are a better rider or they are beginers). I gave you advice, you didn't like it. I said we could agree to disagree and you thanked me for my posts...though I have a feeling you were not sincere as the little guy banging his head into the wall. You keep blaming it on you being small (I am still your size or smaller). You believe because there is one of you and four of them that something aweful may happen if you even say a word (glad I don't live with that kind of fear in life, seriously, that's not healthy). You came here to ask how to handle something you don't want to get your hands dirty handling. Well put your big girl panties on and go ride your bike, then when you want to B1TCH about everyone remember...YOU ARE FORTUNATE TO BE ABLE TO DO THESE THINGS IN SUCH A BEAUTIFUL PLACE...and since you won't confront them anymore, remember what a great ride you had and have a beer...life is too short man, or maybe it's you!!
    I am glad you are such a man and don't fear irrational people. Come hang out with me at Apex one day and let's have a talk with these guys. I would be curious to see how you handle things better. Put your words into action... I am just trying to save one of the riding places that you are talking about.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Ride
    I am glad you are such a man and don't fear irrational people. Come hang out with me at Apex one day and let's have a talk with these guys. I would be curious to see how you handle things better. Put your words into action... I am just trying to save one of the riding places that you are talking about.
    Tuesday, 6pm??
    Black Sheep...where it'ss at!!
    "I'm not known for my patience. Patience is a polite quality and often appropriate, but it rarely gets things done. Impatience, however, is the hunger for results and intolerance for excuses and delays." LA

  23. #23
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    I am 6'3", 185 pounds and a pro downhill racer, I used to get beat up all the time by a kid who was about 6" shorter than me (and skinnier) what does size have to do with anything. I have noticed that some "downhill" riders, xc riders, single speeders, cruiser riders, snowboarders, skiers, doctors, lawyers, garbage persons, waiters, waitresses, business owners, homeless people are a-holes and don't have respect for others. Fortunately most people in the above categories do respect others and behave that way. Why do we have to label each other? I have nearly been run over by single speeders, kids trying to learn to downhill, xc racers doing intervals, and recreational riders. The problem is uneducated or inconsiderate people, not a certain "kind" of rider. Sometimes they are actually educated, considerate people who make mistakes.

    Next time ask, “how can we get riders to stop skidding” and you will get a much more positive response.
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  24. #24
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    Where do you want to meet? I ride in from Golden.

  25. #25
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    True. In hindsite, even putting the word "Apex" in a thread title is a bad idea. The better thread would have been... "How to get riders to stop skidding?"

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