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  1. #201
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    I obviously haven't driven the '14 Forester yet but my XV is a pleasure to drive on the open road as long as it isn't too windy. The tall(ish) narrow profile means it gets buffeted pretty badly but nothing I can't deal with. Compared to my father in laws '13 Forester I find it to require considerably less driver input, possibly due to having a slightly quicker steering ratio. It rides great and is very well composed on rough pavement. The worse the weather gets the more confident you feel behind the wheel. I've driven in some pretty horrendous conditions and never felt the need to back off and it tracks great through beat up slush and snow.

    Over 7,000 miles I'm averaging 27.3mpg with a pretty equal mix of urban/suburban and highway driving. Straight city/suburban is about 25 and all highway is 33-35 depending on how hilly and how fast. The car gets the best mpg at about 60 so if you're going to be doing 70+ I'd expect 30-32.

    The power is definitely sufficient but certainly not too little. There are times though where I'd like a bit more torque at the low end and the CVT means you have to TELL the car when to go compared to many cars today where you just ask and you're there.

    Bottom line - I love it so far and know that I made the right choice.

  2. #202
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    One more thought - I think this car handles SO MUCH better than the Forester and is just a lot more fun to drive. It's possible that the new XT will solve that but I have a hard time thinking that the additional height won't be felt on off camber turns and general hard cornering. That and going to the XT will put a hurt on gas mileage.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX View Post
    Absolutely blown out of proportion! People were just looking at the drop of HP from 170 to 148, yet for some reason nobody mentions that the new car is actually slightly faster than the 08-11 Imprezas, or that the 12+ weigh like 150-180 lbs less than the 08-11. It's stupid, every time I see someone whine about that on the internet I bang my head on the desk.

    Now, yeah, it would have been sweet if they kept the 170 hp on the 12+ cars with the less weight and such, but they wanted fuel economy, so to increase fuel economy ** a full 30% while not making the car slower is quite a nice balance, methinks.
    When I was evaluating the XV on paper before test driving it, I compared the hp/weight ratio to the other cars we currently have. It's pretty dumb to look at HP without looking at how much the vehicle weighs.

  4. #204
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    True, but Subaru has been guilty of a little deception over the years using their "look at the numbers rather than the HP" thing. Of course the LGT and WRX would accelerate fast when you dump the clutch at 5000 due to AWD, but it wrecks the clutch/trans and compared to other similar cars they lacked a lot of top end/upper end acceleration due to lower HP AND AWD loss. They were pushing this idea pretty heavily back in the day when they were stagnating against their competitors in the power arena.
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  5. #205
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    Our New XV!!

    Well, i guess since i started this thread i should post up a pick of our new Crosstrek Limited, Dark Gray...

    Subaru XV Crosstrek-crosstrek.jpg

  6. #206
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    Looking to install a roof box on ours and noticed the antenna does not fold down like on previous Imprezas. I swear I saw another Crosstrek w/the antenna folded & a Thule box - aftermarket?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideut View Post
    Looking to install a roof box on ours and noticed the antenna does not fold down like on previous Imprezas. I swear I saw another Crosstrek w/the antenna folded & a Thule box - aftermarket?
    Do you have a navigation-equipped Crosstrek? I'm not at work but I'm pretty sure the navi cars have a fixed FM/XM antenna, the non-navi cars have the floppy antenna. With that said, do you listen to FM often? If not, just remove it, it just screws off, you'll still probably receive the stronger local signals.
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  8. #208
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    Also, look at the torque and where it peaks. I swear my 115hp GTi was faster than a Honda that weighed 300 pounds less and had 20 more HP, just because the GTi's 122 ft/lbs of torque hit at 3200 RPM, with most of the torque available at 2000 RPM. It had an 8 valve crossflow head with super long intake runners, all of that adds up to more low end torqoe at the expense of less top end HP. That thing pulled nicely from a red light up to 60 MPH.

    The Honda's peak torque of 107 ft/lbs hit at mostly over 4500 RPM, meaning the power really didn't kick in unless you wound the engine out. Who wants to redline the engine just to get it to pull?

    Yeah, forget the numbers on paper. Better to drive it for reals.

    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    When I was evaluating the XV on paper before test driving it, I compared the hp/weight ratio to the other cars we currently have. It's pretty dumb to look at HP without looking at how much the vehicle weighs.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 02-20-2013 at 09:43 PM.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Also, look at the torque and where it peaks. I swear my 115hp GTi was faster than a Honda that weighed 300 pounds less and had 20 more HP, just because the GTi's 122 ft/lbs of torque hit at 3200 RPM, with most of the torque available at 2000 RPM. That thing pulled nicely from a red light up to 60 MPH.

    The Honda's peak torque of 107 ft/lbs hit at mostly over 4500 RPM, meaning the power really didn't kick in unless you wound the engine out. Who wants to redline the engine just to get it to pull?

    Yeah, forget the numbers on paper. Better to drive it for reals.
    Honda's been trying to up the torque and engine size due to the "demand" for a "faster" car. Honda engines have never been considered torque-y. Mainly because that's not what they were designed for. Their philosophy from the beginning was efficiency and reliability first before performance. Even their VTEC utilizes gas efficient torqueless performance down low and power up above ~6k RPM. Personally, I like this and hope they continue building cars like this. Some don't like having to rev up to get power, but I think it adds more fun, especially on the track. It's almost like riding gears vs SS--timing, anticipation, momentum all play a key role and make the ride much more interesting. For me.

    But the way it's going, the engines are getting bigger, cars are getting bloated which really dumbs down the car on performance. I had more fun in a 89 Si than the new 2.4L bloated sedan they call a Civic now. The only true Honda in the Honda line up is the Fit, IMO. This goes same for the GTI's. MKI's were sweet. The new ones are still fun to drive, but feels dumbed down.

  10. #210
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    Anybody cross shop the XV with Countryman All4. Curious what your impressions were if you test drove both.
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  11. #211
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    Subaru XV Crosstrek

    Quote Originally Posted by stremf View Post
    Honda's been trying to up the torque and engine size due to the "demand" for a "faster" car. Honda engines have never been considered torque-y. Mainly because that's not what they were designed for. Their philosophy from the beginning was efficiency and reliability first before performance. Even their VTEC utilizes gas efficient torqueless performance down low and power up above ~6k RPM. Personally, I like this and hope they continue building cars like this. Some don't like having to rev up to get power, but I think it adds more fun, especially on the track. It's almost like riding gears vs SS--timing, anticipation, momentum all play a key role and make the ride much more interesting. For me.

    But the way it's going, the engines are getting bigger, cars are getting bloated which really dumbs down the car on performance. I had more fun in a 89 Si than the new 2.4L bloated sedan they call a Civic now. The only true Honda in the Honda line up is the Fit, IMO. This goes same for the GTI's. MKI's were sweet. The new ones are still fun to drive, but feels dumbed down.
    I'd agree that the only real Honda left, at least in the US, is the Fit (so handy and cheap). I'm a former owner of a few Hondas and they just sent me a brochure in the mail and an email (same day even) that "showcased" their new "refinements" and inviting me back. What a bloated lineup! Who ever designed that abomination of an Accord wagon should go to jail - you'd need to be drunk to buy it.

  12. #212
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    That bad? I kinda like wagons. If you mean that Accord crossover thingy, yeah. Mega-Fugly. I miss the Element. I seriously considered one, but fuel consumption was too high as a DD for me, and the wife wouldn't drive it. We ended up with an older A4 Wagon that has been fabulous. It completely sucks for usable hauling space, but at least it's sporty and gets 30mpg.


    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I'd agree that the only real Honda left, at least in the US, is the Fit (so handy and cheap). I'm a former owner of a few Hondas and they just sent me a brochure in the mail and an email (same day even) that "showcased" their new "refinements" and inviting me back. What a bloated lineup! Who ever designed that abomination of an Accord wagon should go to jail - you'd need to be drunk to buy it.

  13. #213
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    Subaru XV Crosstrek

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    That bad? I kinda like wagons. If you mean that Accord crossover thingy, yeah. Mega-Fugly. I miss the Element. I seriously considered one, but fuel consumption was too high as a DD for me, and the wife wouldn't drive it. We ended up with an older A4 Wagon that has been fabulous. It completely sucks for usable hauling space, but at least it's sporty and gets 30mpg.
    IMHO at least at the momment and Toyota is about the same for some modes. The crazy thing is Honda makes and sells great cars for other countries such as the Stream (Fits big bro). I like the styling of Audi much better than most, if I needed a premium car I'd get one over the other guys for sure.

  14. #214
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    No nav, I will just try unscrewing it. We do listen to FM a good amount.

  15. #215
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    What kind of antenna is it? The little rubber ducky antennas just flex over. My antenna hits my roof box, but there is some space in there so it's like like it's gonna break it off.

    Yeah, or just unscrew it. Those things are pretty standard. Maybe you can replace the whip with a shorter or more flexible one. Check the fleabay.

    Quote Originally Posted by rideut View Post
    No nav, I will just try unscrewing it. We do listen to FM a good amount.

  16. #216
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    Our review is here!!!

    Review: Subaru XV Crosstrek – Ideal Mountain Biker Vehicle? | Mountain Bike Review

    <img src="http://reviews.mtbr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/DSC_0042.jpg">

  17. #217
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    XV is on my short list, so I appreciate this forum and Francois' review. Can any XV owners with roof racks comment on MTBR's observation re difficulty/awkwardness of lifting and reaching a roof-mounted bike? Also, I've seen a lot of back-and-forth on this, but is there a definitive "best" when it comes to the hitch receiver (factory installed or UHaul)? Thanks guys.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by trojan08 View Post
    XV is on my short list, so I appreciate this forum and Francois' review. Can any XV owners with roof racks comment on MTBR's observation re difficulty/awkwardness of lifting and reaching a roof-mounted bike? Also, I've seen a lot of back-and-forth on this, but is there a definitive "best" when it comes to the hitch receiver (factory installed or UHaul)? Thanks guys.
    ease of use of a roof rack will depend on your height and your rack. this car is fairly tall, so keep that in mind.

  19. #219
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    Needs a turbo...

  20. #220
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    Subaru XV Crosstrek

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvestri View Post
    Needs a turbo...
    No it doesn't

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by trojan08 View Post
    XV is on my short list, so I appreciate this forum and Francois' review. Can any XV owners with roof racks comment on MTBR's observation re difficulty/awkwardness of lifting and reaching a roof-mounted bike? Also, I've seen a lot of back-and-forth on this, but is there a definitive "best" when it comes to the hitch receiver (factory installed or UHaul)? Thanks guys.
    So the problem is two-fold. First, is it's 9 inches of clearance so you're gonna need a short step ladder or step on the car itself to reach the roof rack.

    The rails are near the rear of the car so you have to step on the smaller rear passenger opening to reach the roof. There's no side step-rails so you're foot space is limited with the door opening. I was using a rack which mounted the bike with the front wheel so I had the full 32 lbs of the bike every time I put the bikes up there. I tweaked my shoulder, banged my elbow, etc. when taking the bikes down by myself. Not the end of the world but it was harder after a big ride on uneven terrain.

    I would definitely do a hitch rack. It turns out Subaru sells a hitch mount. One of those and a 1upusa rack and this thing will be dialed.

    Subaru Drive : Fall12: Genuine Subaru Accessories for 2013 Subaru XV Crosstrek

    I've also had good luck with etrailers.com and hiddenhitch.com.

    This car has a tow rating of 1500 lbs.

    fc

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvestri View Post
    Needs a turbo...
    This car is pretty darn capable and quick around town so it is a good package.

    If you like to drive fast, live in high elevation where engines suck or need to do a lot of passing on country roads, then a turbo option would be nice. Maybe put that Subaru BRZ engine in it.

  23. #223
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    i found a pic of, what i think, the factory subaru hitch looks like on this page:

    Subaru XV Crosstrek Options and Upgrades Photo Page #3

    i have a '12 outback and installed the subaru factory hitch myself.

    it appears that the crosstrek's factory hitch is similar in that you have to trim a portion of the bumper to install the hitch.

    so, be aware of that.

    third party hitches, for the 4th gen outbacks, "hang" under the bumper so no trimming is needed.

    this method will decrease your... going up angle ( i can't remember the term - lol ), as the aftermarket hitch rides lower.

    joel

  24. #224
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    Subaru XV Crosstrek

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    This car is pretty darn capable and quick around town so it is a good package.

    If you like to drive fast, live in high elevation where engines suck or need to do a lot of passing on country roads, then a turbo option would be nice. Maybe put that Subaru BRZ engine in it.
    Nice job Francois from a cycling perspective. Now we need another review beat-running one off road - I mean testing the off road capacities.

  25. #225
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    Thanks for the review francois. This does look like a really good car for mountain bikers. How is the handling on paved roads? Is it noticeably worse than an Impreza due to the increased ground clearance, or not bad? Is it still fun to drive on twisty mountain roads?

    I haven't driven one yet, but I think for now I will have to agree with the needs a turbo comment. Coming from an Audi allroad with a 320hp V8, a 150hp 4 cylinder is not going to feel very inspired, even if it does weigh 1000lbs less. Maybe that will be an option in the future? However the XV is rated at basically double the mpg's I currently get in the allroad, so maybe it's a worthwhile tradeoff. But the Forester XT still gets decent mpg's as well.

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    This car is pretty darn capable and quick around town so it is a good package.

    If you like to drive fast, live in high elevation where engines suck or need to do a lot of passing on country roads, then a turbo option would be nice. Maybe put that Subaru BRZ engine in it.
    Actually, the direct-injection motor from the BRZ would be a wise addition. This would provide even better fuel economy.
    Oh noes. I'm going to drink the Kool-Aid.

  27. #227
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    Subaru XV Crosstrek

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMtnB44 View Post
    Thanks for the review francois. This does look like a really good car for mountain bikers. How is the handling on paved roads? Is it noticeably worse than an Impreza due to the increased ground clearance, or not bad? Is it still fun to drive on twisty mountain roads?

    I haven't driven one yet, but I think for now I will have to agree with the needs a turbo comment. Coming from an Audi allroad with a 320hp V8, a 150hp 4 cylinder is not going to feel very inspired, even if it does weigh 1000lbs less. Maybe that will be an option in the future? However the XV is rated at basically double the mpg's I currently get in the allroad, so maybe it's a worthwhile tradeoff. But the Forester XT still gets decent mpg's as well.
    I'd like a comparison too. I have a Forester and Impreza - the Impreza out handles the taller car no problem. The Forester has zero percent interest right now as an FYI. I happen to like free money a lot!

  28. #228
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    Here's the off road capabilities.
    Driving Sports TV - 2013 Subaru XV Crosstrek Tropical Test and Review - YouTube

    Should be better than most SUVs!!!

    Ride quality on the street is good. Same as any other car. I don't think they increased the travel or firmed up the suspension.

    Handling is awesome. There's a bit of tire squeal at the limit but the car is composed.

  29. #229
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    The handling is shockingly similar to a normal Impreza Sport. I daresay one can notice the Geolandars more than they can notice the suspension changes over a normal Impreza.
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  30. #230
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    Subaru XV Crosstrek

    Subaru has a history of noisy OEM tires for sure, good news about the handling. If my Subarus ever wear out, I may have to check one out.

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    Considering it's the same wheel and tire size as the Forester, I'm curious to see if some General Grabbers would fit. Not that they would be my choice if I had an XV, but they'd probably look pretty *****in'
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  32. #232
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    Aren't they all direct injection these days... like since 2005? I mean, that is a big gas saver and emissions saver.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcaino View Post
    Actually, the direct-injection motor from the BRZ would be a wise addition. This would provide even better fuel economy.

  33. #233
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    Here's a better one... and with a Manual transmission:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/H1ZkZU85sE0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Wow... I gotta say, I'm impressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Here's the off road capabilities.
    Driving Sports TV - 2013 Subaru XV Crosstrek Tropical Test and Review - YouTube

    Should be better than most SUVs!!!

    Ride quality on the street is good. Same as any other car. I don't think they increased the travel or firmed up the suspension.

    Handling is awesome. There's a bit of tire squeal at the limit but the car is composed.

  34. #234
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    Subaru XV Crosstrek

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Here's a better one... and with a Manual transmission:

    &lt;iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/H1ZkZU85sE0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen&gt;&lt;/iframe&gt;

    Wow... I gotta say, I'm impressed.
    Not too bad ... although it could take a lot more. The color would even match one of my bikes.

  35. #235
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    Re: Subaru XV Crosstrek

    Putting a deposit down on an orange limited tomorrow. Dealer said it'll be about 30 days. Pretty stoked. I needed good gas mileage, ground clearance and decent cargo space. I think this'll be a great car.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Putting a deposit down on an orange limited tomorrow. Dealer said it'll be about 30 days. Pretty stoked. I needed good gas mileage, ground clearance and decent cargo space. I think this'll be a great car.
    uhhhh....I wouldn't bank on that 30 day estimate. We ordered ours on Jan 5 and still do not have the call that it's arrived in Seattle.

    unless your dealer is getting you one that's already here and shipping it from another Subaru dealer.

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    uhhhh....I wouldn't bank on that 30 day estimate. We ordered ours on Jan 5 and still do not have the call that it's arrived in Seattle.
    Might depend upon location. Local dealer in Albuquerque NM had 5 of them over the past two weeks. Went into look at the XV as we are considering replacing a SUV with something utilitarian yet fuel efficient.

  38. #238
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    Re: Subaru XV Crosstrek

    Yeah. They are pouring in to Utah. I've already test driven several and I'm getting one that the dealer already had on order. It's not a special order. He seemed to think 30 days was a generous estimate.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Aren't they all direct injection these days... like since 2005? I mean, that is a big gas saver and emissions saver.
    On the one hand, Subaru offers AWD cars and some of their stuff is pretty dead reliable, impressive especially when considering how many moving parts they got and the extra driveshafts/differentials.

    On the other hand, they are often one of the last to entertain new technologys.

    4EAT? Seriously? That should have been gone at least 5 years ago, if not more.

    Tiny TD04 turbo for so long, shoulda been using something a little bigger and giving the WRX a good bump like it finally got in 2009, took way too long to get to that point though. The power issue is one where they seem to fail across multiple fronts. Effectively about 250hp for the LGT models? That's kind of pathetic given today's cars with 300hp V6s, and the Subarus are losing a lot more of their power to parasitic drivetrain losses due to the AWD. Same thing with the WRX and even STi. Sure, you can launch from a standstill faster than nearly everything else, which is hugely bad for your transmission and drivetrain, but if you ever try to hang with something that only has to send 300hp to two wheels you'll be smoked. The handling is good, but they should have been following the natural progression of technology and embracing:

    twin-scroll turbos (available in JDM market)

    Direct Injection

    High compression normally aspirated engines with advanced timing controls.

    Minimum of 6spd auto and manual transmissions for LGT models.

    So while I love the cars and will likely get another one at some point in the future, there are weak points too and subaru could do with better R&D/application of technology. The BRZ is a good example of what they can do if willing. All too often much of the good-stuff never makes it to the US market, but it exists in the JDM.
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  40. #240
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    Subaru XV Crosstrek

    So whats the real world gas mileage from owners in this thread? We're looking to potentially replace our 06 civic.

  41. #241
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    Curious about this as well. Getting the new car bug and this is on my list.
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  42. #242
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    How are the CVT transmissions? I love every aspect of this car except the dreaded CVT transmission that 90% of new cars are getting....

    I know Fords and Nissans with CVT's commonly have problems before 100k and are very costly to fix ($4k-5k according to my neighbor and his ford freestyle).

    Don't really feel like getting the manual and dealing with chicagoland traffic either...
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  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    On the one hand, Subaru offers AWD cars and some of their stuff is pretty dead reliable, impressive especially when considering how many moving parts they got and the extra driveshafts/differentials.

    On the other hand, they are often one of the last to entertain new technologys.

    4EAT? Seriously? That should have been gone at least 5 years ago, if not more.

    Tiny TD04 turbo for so long, shoulda been using something a little bigger and giving the WRX a good bump like it finally got in 2009, took way too long to get to that point though. The power issue is one where they seem to fail across multiple fronts. Effectively about 250hp for the LGT models? That's kind of pathetic given today's cars with 300hp V6s, and the Subarus are losing a lot more of their power to parasitic drivetrain losses due to the AWD. Same thing with the WRX and even STi. Sure, you can launch from a standstill faster than nearly everything else, which is hugely bad for your transmission and drivetrain, but if you ever try to hang with something that only has to send 300hp to two wheels you'll be smoked. The handling is good, but they should have been following the natural progression of technology and embracing:

    twin-scroll turbos (available in JDM market)

    Direct Injection

    High compression normally aspirated engines with advanced timing controls.

    Minimum of 6spd auto and manual transmissions for LGT models.

    So while I love the cars and will likely get another one at some point in the future, there are weak points too and subaru could do with better R&D/application of technology. The BRZ is a good example of what they can do if willing. All too often much of the good-stuff never makes it to the US market, but it exists in the JDM.
    There is that much drag for the AWD? They're pretty much doing the same thing as Audi/VW, layout-wise. On the VAG B chassis cars (Passat, A4, A5, Q5, Quantum, Audi 80/90, Skoda Octavia) and they only get 1mpg hit for the AWD versions (EPA estimates) over the FWD versions of their cars. It only adds 150 pounds to the whole system. Then again, they are using low drag roller bearings on everything inside the gearbox, and using roller bearing style CV Joints everywhere outside except the propeller shaft (which is only there to allow some chassis flex), and maybe Subaru isn't doing that.

    The A chassis cars use a viscous coupling on the older cars (pre 1998), or a Haldex clutch on the newer cars.

    I can't imagine Subaru is doing anything much different.

    Point is, I think the AWD is a very minimal efficiency suck. Of course, you can't compare it to anything. The only 2WD Subaru in recent memory is the BRZ.

    With the impressive efficiency numbers on the 2.0 Subaru VX engine, I would be surprised if they weren't using direct injection. Geez, even Nissan has direct injection on their $12k Versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by HondaMotocross View Post
    How are the CVT transmissions? I love every aspect of this car except the dreaded CVT transmission that 90% of new cars are getting....

    I know Fords and Nissans with CVT's commonly have problems before 100k and are very costly to fix ($4k-5k according to my neighbor and his ford freestyle).

    Don't really feel like getting the manual and dealing with chicagoland traffic either...
    The CVT Audi A4/B6 on the FWD cars (2002-2005) was a disaster. Those things failed at 80k like clockwork. They run them on the Prius and Highlander, and they seem to be holding up just fine. I personally have two friends with 120k+ mile Priuses (Prii?) with no issues.

    It's probably too soon to tell for Subaru, but they are usually pretty durable in the drivetrain department... unless you're a 20 year old driving a WRX trying to impress your friends with AWD burnout clutch dumps.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 02-27-2013 at 09:04 PM.

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    Yes, there is absolutely that much drag for an AWD system like subaru that is fully engaged. Have you ever tried to run with something like a bmw 328 on the highway? They'll smoke a "230hp" WRX because they are putting much more power to the drive wheels. Those WRXs were lucky to dyno 170hp to the wheels, sometimes less. That's a huge loss and typical. STIs dynoed around 230 or so stock, again, to the wheels. That's the real difference right there.

    I think you were quoting those figures a few years back and the entire audi car is on the heavy side, WRXs are around 3200lbs or so, anything crosstrek, impreza or forester wise isn't going to be far from that range. Some cars are geared differently too, some are shorter for more acceleration, some are longer to allow for lower RPMs when cruising, and so on. There's unlikely to be excessive magic going on here, but the point was that subaru doesn't embrace technology all that well. 6spd transmissions should be standard for just about everything they have, and 7spds in the LGT auto models. They kind of get by with their 5000rpm clutch drops for the 0-60 figures though, so at lower speeds they can be quick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Yes, there is absolutely that much drag for an AWD system like subaru that is fully engaged. Have you ever tried to run with something like a bmw 328 on the highway? They'll smoke a "230hp" WRX because they are putting much more power to the drive wheels. Those WRXs were lucky to dyno 170hp to the wheels, sometimes less. That's a huge loss and typical. STIs dynoed around 230 or so stock, again, to the wheels. That's the real difference right there.

    I think you were quoting those figures a few years back and the entire audi car is on the heavy side, WRXs are around 3200lbs or so, anything crosstrek, impreza or forester wise isn't going to be far from that range. Some cars are geared differently too, some are shorter for more acceleration, some are longer to allow for lower RPMs when cruising, and so on. There's unlikely to be excessive magic going on here, but the point was that subaru doesn't embrace technology all that well. 6spd transmissions should be standard for just about everything they have, and 7spds in the LGT auto models. They kind of get by with their 5000rpm clutch drops for the 0-60 figures though, so at lower speeds they can be quick.
    My B6 Audi A4 quattro 5speed manual sedan weighs in at 3400 pounds. My wife's B5 A4 Avant 5 speed manual (all Avants have Quattro) is 3300 pounds, so it's right on par with the WRX. FWIU, the automatic adds 100 pounds, adn the V6 version another 100 pounds.

    The A4 Quattro system is fully engaged all the time (on the B5-B7 with a Torsen center diff, on B8 and later cars with a variable open diff with a clutch lock-up), not that it really makes a difference in drag. The clutch based systems (like on the A3) are always turning too. The rear wheels will turn the driveshafts, rear diff, and propeller shaft whether or not the center clutch (to engage the AWD) is closed or open. So, as long as the car is moving, the motor is still turning the rear driveline... it's just connected by road and tires instead of directly, so it is still using the same energy.

    Heh... somehow, I thought WRXs were lighter. They're quite a bit smaller, but I know they make those bodies super stiff and very crash worthy. There's a lot of 14ga steel in those things. I read somewhere that Subaru actually sends special instructions out to first responders to show them how to cut through the car bodies to cut people out in a bad crash.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 02-28-2013 at 12:48 AM.

  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Yes, there is absolutely that much drag for an AWD system like subaru that is fully engaged. Have you ever tried to run with something like a bmw 328 on the highway? They'll smoke a "230hp" WRX because they are putting much more power to the drive wheels. Those WRXs were lucky to dyno 170hp to the wheels, sometimes less. That's a huge loss and typical. STIs dynoed around 230 or so stock, again, to the wheels. That's the real difference right there.

    I think you were quoting those figures a few years back and the entire audi car is on the heavy side, WRXs are around 3200lbs or so, anything crosstrek, impreza or forester wise isn't going to be far from that range. Some cars are geared differently too, some are shorter for more acceleration, some are longer to allow for lower RPMs when cruising, and so on. There's unlikely to be excessive magic going on here, but the point was that subaru doesn't embrace technology all that well. 6spd transmissions should be standard for just about everything they have, and 7spds in the LGT auto models. They kind of get by with their 5000rpm clutch drops for the 0-60 figures though, so at lower speeds they can be quick.
    I bet I can give the BMW a run for the money on dirt, otherwise known as the Subaru's preferred terrain. I also bet the BMW could not handle the beatings I give my cars in the national forest.

  47. #247
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    Wrx's are quick for their hp levels....I don't know what this dude is talking about. The 227hp models run low 14's. show me another car with that much weight and that little hp running that. The new ones are mid 13 cars.

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    Go look at the passing times and compare to other cars, that really tells the tale. The WRX is fun and fast at low speeds, but the drag and lack of hp really affects them at high speed, to really see this, look up the 0-60 time from a roll, very telling. I think these cars are practically fast, vs some others that can go 200mph and there's nowhere to drive that illegally, but again, the WRX and Subaru times are due to awd and clutch drops or brake+gas for the auto models. I know, I owned a "227hp" model for 5 years, modded for 280-300hp. At low speed I could easily outrun a 300hp v8 mustang gt (previous generation), as speeds got past legal limits they'd start pulling ahead. Much more hp going to the rear wheels.

    http://www.modularfords.com/threads/174421-2011-Mustang-V6-Slower-than-2011-WRX

    This is the 265hp WRX no less.

    There's also a good article on a V6 Camry vs the WRX, showing the Camry is just as fast, if not faster. Do the searches and you'll see.

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Go look at the passing times and compare to other cars, that really tells the tale. The WRX is fun and fast at low speeds, but the drag and lack of hp really affects them at high speed, to really see this, look up the 0-60 time from a roll, very telling. I think these cars are practically fast, vs some others that can go 200mph and there's nowhere to drive that illegally, but again, the WRX and Subaru times are due to awd and clutch drops or brake+gas for the auto models. I know, I owned a "227hp" model for 5 years, modded for 280-300hp. At low speed I could easily outrun a 300hp v8 mustang gt (previous generation), as speeds got past legal limits they'd start pulling ahead. Much more hp going to the rear wheels.http://www.modularfords.com/threads/...-than-2011-WRX

    This is the 265hp WRX no less.

    There's also a good article on a V6 Camry vs the WRX, showing the Camry is just as fast, if not faster. Do the searches and you'll see.
    What happens when you go around a corner? Does that 1950s rear end hinder the Ford?

  50. #250
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    This should probably all be in the subaru general thread instead of the xv thread

  51. #251
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    I've tried dozens of cars in the last year and there has been a new generation of CVT transmissions. They actually work now and are more efficient.

    I drove a 2013 Altima that was very responsive and getting over 35 mpg!

    This CVT on the Subaru XV is really good. It squeezes the most power and torque out of the motor. Also it is more efficient than the manual at 33 mpg vs. 30 mpg for the manual. It has really low drag and seems to coast forever.

    CVTs are generally noisy under high loads. This one is too but not too bad.

    I'm a manual transmission type of guy but just like Volkswagen TDI engines that need a lot of shifting, this car is better as an auto.

    fc
    Quote Originally Posted by HondaMotocross View Post
    How are the CVT transmissions? I love every aspect of this car except the dreaded CVT transmission that 90% of new cars are getting....

    I know Fords and Nissans with CVT's commonly have problems before 100k and are very costly to fix ($4k-5k according to my neighbor and his ford freestyle).

    Don't really feel like getting the manual and dealing with chicagoland traffic either...

  52. #252
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    I owned a 2004 WRX for about 5 years. I absolutely loved that car and it had plenty of power to have some fun. Just for kicks, here is a video of a "race" at Miller Motorsports Park in Utah. It was a "snowcross" race meaning you raced on whatever surface was on the track that day. This particular day it was nice and dry, and yes, I know I blew the launch. I still took 2nd place for my class after the entire series of 4 races was over. Oh, and they put out cones to kill the best lines and to make you really work for it.
    MMP "SnowX" - YouTube

    I am at a point in my life now where I just want a good car with great gas mileage and the ability to get me where I need to go. The XV fits that bill nicely.
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  53. #253
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    I don't know, but the GT, Boss and GT500 models have pretty stiff suspension in an attempt to tame the solid rear end, I don't have those problems with my active rear end Camaro(with stiffer aftermarket sways and strut braces), but it too goes around a track faster than an Sti due to the power, brakes, and suspension. If the Sti was sending the same power to the wheels with the same brake capability, I'd most likely be faster on a track. That takes some significant mods starting from 230awhp.

  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I've tried dozens of cars in the last year and there has been a new generation of CVT transmissions. They actually work now and are more efficient.

    I drove a 2013 Altima that was very responsive and getting over 35 mpg!

    This CVT on the Subaru XV is really good. It squeezes the most power and torque out of the motor. Also it is more efficient than the manual at 33 mpg vs. 30 mpg for the manual. It has really low drag and seems to coast forever.

    CVTs are generally noisy under high loads. This one is too but not too bad.

    I'm a manual transmission type of guy but just like Volkswagen TDI engines that need a lot of shifting, this car is better as an auto.

    fc
    I'm glad they ditched the 4-speed dog auto, but manuals are just more fun. Now where's our diesel with 6-speed manual stump-puller?

  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    What happens when you go around a corner? Does that 1950s rear end hinder the Ford?
    Only 1950s?

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    In all serious, the new Mustang is getting good reviews for handling. It's still a live axle, but they did some clever stuff to get it to handle well... not sure what exactly.

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I'm glad they ditched the 4-speed dog auto, but manuals are just more fun. Now where's our diesel with 6-speed manual stump-puller?
    Heck yeah, I'd take on a car payment for an XV with 6 speed manual diesel. It would probably get 40 mpg real world mileage.

    In Europe, they have a Tiguan TDI manual with AWD (stupid Haldex part time, tho... ). I would be into that. I rented a 2.0t gas AWD Tiguan for a job I did once, and I can tell you... even with an automatic (it wasn't DSG, unfortunately) it is still way faster than I need. It was way too easy to stomp it and jump ahead of anybody on the freeway. It was kinda stupid fast for a truck, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I've tried dozens of cars in the last year and there has been a new generation of CVT transmissions. They actually work now and are more efficient.

    This CVT on the Subaru XV is really good. It squeezes the most power and torque out of the motor. Also it is more efficient than the manual at 33 mpg vs. 30 mpg for the manual. It has really low drag and seems to coast forever.

    CVTs are generally noisy under high loads. This one is too but not too bad.fc
    How does the automatic CVT get better mileage than the manual transmission?
    Can some explain this result - thanks

  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatSix911 View Post
    How does the automatic CVT get better mileage than the manual transmission?
    Can some explain this result - thanks
    Infinitely adjustable gear ratios keep the motor at the ideal operating RPM to maximize efficiency.

    Wheras with a stick, you only have 5 set gear ratios to row through, so the motor isn't always in that happy place of magic and moonbeams.
    Oh noes. I'm going to drink the Kool-Aid.

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    It's also faster to 60 mph because of no time-wasting between gear shifts! Buuuuuut, I'd still take the 5 speed due to the 50/50 AWD system. Both have great AWD systems though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX View Post
    It's also faster to 60 mph because of no time-wasting between gear shifts! Buuuuuut, I'd still take the 5 speed due to the 50/50 AWD system. Both have great AWD systems though.
    Off course all there cars should really offer the 6-speed manual by now. I too prefer the 50/50 constant AWD and feel like the auto units have a bit of torque steer (I haven't driven the CVT), which I don't like. I also can't stand just sitting there and not shifting, which is weird since I prefer single speed bikes.

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    I am not a huge fan of the newish 6 speed- I wish I didn't feel that way- they changed something, I forget what, compared to the 5 speeds, but it feels a bit more rubbery and vague. Plus the Outbacks and Legacies have that incredibly insulting display on the dash that gives you a big number to tell you what gear you are in. Sorry, but I don't need to look down to see what gear I'm in, it's called muscle memory. And having ears.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX View Post
    I am not a huge fan of the newish 6 speed- I wish I didn't feel that way- they changed something, I forget what, compared to the 5 speeds, but it feels a bit more rubbery and vague. Plus the Outbacks and Legacies have that incredibly insulting display on the dash that gives you a big number to tell you what gear you are in. Sorry, but I don't need to look down to see what gear I'm in, it's called muscle memory. And having ears.
    I've heard the linkages were changed. I really like the 5-speed on our 09 Impreza - hopefully the Crosstrek feels similar. Our 02 Forester on the other hand, feels like a 1950s Farmall tractor with the slowest synchros around - it just loves to grid when I'm too fast. Both cars do speed shift well at the right RPM.

  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I've heard the linkages were changed. I really like the 5-speed on our 09 Impreza - hopefully the Crosstrek feels similar. Our 02 Forester on the other hand, feels like a 1950s Farmall tractor with the slowest synchros around - it just loves to grid when I'm too fast. Both cars do speed shift well at the right RPM.
    My wife's Avant is like that in second gear. One of the clutch pressure plate springs broke, and we drove it like that for way too long, thinking the problem was somewhere else... in the clutch master cylinder. We wore out the second gear syncro. Wups.... and it isn't a big enough problem to sink money into a used tranny swap to fix on a car with 171k miles on it. It's not bad, you just can't slam it into second off the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I've heard the linkages were changed. I really like the 5-speed on our 09 Impreza - hopefully the Crosstrek feels similar. Our 02 Forester on the other hand, feels like a 1950s Farmall tractor with the slowest synchros around - it just loves to grid when I'm too fast. Both cars do speed shift well at the right RPM.
    It feels very similar (maybe exactly the same) as your 09.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatSix911 View Post
    How does the automatic CVT get better mileage than the manual transmission?
    Can some explain this result - thanks
    It might be as simple as a taller top gear ratio. On manual transmissions, they tend to make the top gear not very tall so you don't have to shift when you want to pass or go up a grade at freeway speeds. A CVT will just move to the proper ratio quickly and on it's own.

    I think it's kinda lame. Just give me the super tall top gear. My '79 Scirocco 5 speed (first year it was out) blew up on me, and I replaced it with a 5 speed from an '83 Diesel Rabbit. Top gear was like a 0.71:1 whereas the Scirocco was 0.78:1 stock. That car got like 38 mpg, back in the day when nothing was that good. It spun at like 2800 rpm at 75 mph.

    I hear that is what they do with the new Corvettes so they pull close to 30 mpg with a big ass V8.

    All else being equal, a manual is still going to pull the most efficiently if the driver short shifts and knows where the engine is pulling best. But, they make compromises to give most folks what they want. In other words, a manual has the least internal friction, but they won't put really tall top gears in them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcaino View Post
    Infinitely adjustable gear ratios keep the motor at the ideal operating RPM to maximize efficiency.

    Wheras with a stick, you only have 5 set gear ratios to row through, so the motor isn't always in that happy place of magic and moonbeams.
    Thanks to all for the explaination - I still want the manual

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    Biggest problem with the manual with the new 2.0 motor is the torque flat spot between 3-4k rpm's. You really need to wind it out to get the most out of it because torque peaks at 4200 and then holds steady up to the mid 5's. With my CVT I have "reasonable" power down low and when I ask for more it jumps right up to the best spot.

    So far with 11k on the clock I'm averaging 27.4 mpg and have seen as high as 36 on extended low speed (45-60 mph) back road trips. Getting over 70 for any length of time puts a hurt on but still keeps it over 28. The biggest hit to mpg has been in really cold air temps, I've seen tanks as low as ~25 or when I have 2 bikes and the ski box on the roof it will run 25/26. Unfortunately my average is low because the car is in and out of NYC five days a week.

  68. #268
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    The sticker price on my 2013 WRX Base with homelink auto dimming mirror, STI shifter, all weather floor mats, wheel locks and technology package was 27,660 + Tax and Lic. I paid 25,660 + Tax and Lic. A WRX can be had for under 24,500 if you skip all the options and pick up a base model. That's what I wanted but I couldn't find one in world rally blue that had no options so I decided to just pay the extra for the options.

    I was considering a crosstek but seriously, for a couple grand more, you get the best performance sedan out there under 34k(STI's are 35 ;-)

  69. #269
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    Some of us aren't after the best performance sedan available for under 34k. Some of us want a capable car for remote and rough trailheads and/or winter roads that gets good fuel economy and the xv is one of the most capable cars out there (if not the most) that gets better than 30mpg highway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihaveagibsonsg View Post
    The sticker price on my 2013 WRX Base with homelink auto dimming mirror, STI shifter, all weather floor mats, wheel locks and technology package was 27,660 + Tax and Lic. I paid 25,660 + Tax and Lic. A WRX can be had for under 24,500 if you skip all the options and pick up a base model. That's what I wanted but I couldn't find one in world rally blue that had no options so I decided to just pay the extra for the options.

    I was considering a crosstek but seriously, for a couple grand more, you get the best performance sedan out there under 34k(STI's are 35 ;-)
    Apples and oranges. And for a couple grand more you could get an even better car than the STI. And for a couple grand more you could get an even better car than that car. Where do you stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    Some of us aren't after the best performance sedan available for under 34k. Some of us want a capable car for remote and rough trailheads and/or winter roads that gets good fuel economy and the xv is one of the most capable cars out there (if not the most) that gets better than 30mpg highway.
    This. I've owned a WRX. I even raced it at Miller Motorsports Park in Utah and took second place in my series over 4 races. It was a fun car. It is NOT a versatile car though. Low ground clearance, no cargo room, and about 18-22mpg is not cool.

    The XV is everything the WRX isn't. The only thing they have in common is they are Subarus.
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    Yeah the "only a couple grand more" thing is completely relative- I'd say 75% of my customer's can't even afford the next higher trimlevel of a certain car for an extra $2,000, let alone a whole 'nother performance level for another $6,000.
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    Not everybody needs a hopped up turbo either or the increase in insurance rates that comes with all the fun. I do wish they'd keep using the 2.5 as the 2.0 does sound a little weak for such a heavy car.

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    How's that WRX on gas? Come talk to me when you're getting 31+mpg WITH snowboards on the roof over a 200 mile trip.

  74. #274
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    My XV came in today. Tangerine Orange Limited and I already put a Thule roof rack system on it . I'll put the Curt 2" receiver on it tomorrow. Pics to follow, if we aren't buried in snow tomorrow and I wuss out.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  75. #275
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    Re: Subaru XV Crosstrek

    Thought I'd post a couple pics. Definitely loving it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Subaru XV Crosstrek-uploadfromtaptalk1364356827055.jpg  

    Subaru XV Crosstrek-uploadfromtaptalk1364356843094.jpg  

    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Thought I'd post a couple pics. Definitely loving it.
    Nice! I see you're carrying 3 bikes on the roof, how does it feel when driving? E.g. acceleration/handling in cornering?

    thanks,
    iustin

  77. #277
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    Tangerine is a hot color! Congrats!

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    Quote Originally Posted by iusty View Post
    Nice! I see you're carrying 3 bikes on the roof, how does it feel when driving? E.g. acceleration/handling in cornering?

    thanks,
    iustin
    Yeah, I put three Thule sidearms on the roof. The center one is a bit tough to get to but I am tall (6'3") so I have an easier time of it than most. I also threw on a 2" receiver so I can use a 4xThule T2 system. Haven't tried that one yet. I also need to hook up my small utility trailer with bikes so I can see how that feels.

    Acceleration is just fine, it is what it is. If I really need to punch it, I just tap the paddle shifter twice and away I go. Cornering is amazing for a car like this. I don't feel much body roll and that's a good thing.

    Several nice things no one mentions. Interior lighting at night is a very nice red. The heater warms up super fast as do the seat heaters. The bluetooth is hard to figure out but I honestly haven't played with it while holding the manual yet.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilikebmx999 View Post
    Tangerine is a hot color! Congrats!
    I second this, I love the color!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I second this, I love the color!
    Yeah, just something about that color

    Subaru XV Crosstrek-resize.jpg
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  81. #281
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    May have been posted already, but how is the CVT in this car?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Thought I'd post a couple pics. Definitely loving it.
    Looks great! Did you consider using the Subaru aero crossbars? They're flat enough on my '03 Forester that my bikes stand pretty straight.

  83. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinker View Post
    Looks great! Did you consider using the Subaru aero crossbars? They're flat enough on my '03 Forester that my bikes stand pretty straight.
    No, I've never really trusted factory racks. I got the Thule aero bars instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gouda Cheez View Post
    May have been posted already, but how is the CVT in this car?
    It's my first experience with a CVT. It whines a little more than a normal automatic and I keep expecting to feel it "shift" through the gears like a normal automatic but it never does.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  84. #284
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    Do the factory racks suck now? My old Forrester has hailed lumber and everything else under the sun without issue.

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    Details of the 2014 XV Crosstrek Hybrid to be revealed at the NY Auto Show today. I'm intrigued.

  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinker View Post
    Details of the 2014 XV Crosstrek Hybrid to be revealed at the NY Auto Show today. I'm intrigued.
    Not me. Where's our diesel like the rest of the world? I want a stump puller!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    No, I've never really trusted factory racks. I got the Thule aero bars instead.



    It's my first experience with a CVT. It whines a little more than a normal automatic and I keep expecting to feel it "shift" through the gears like a normal automatic but it never does.
    How's it in stop and go traffic? Those types of scenarios are what I'm most curious about since it's likely I would see a whole lot of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Not me. Where's our diesel like the rest of the world? I want a stump puller!
    I agree with that. You'd think with the success (perceived by me, anyway) of the VW TDIs, Subaru would want to bring a diesel to the US market.

  89. #289
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    Hybrid is kinda interesting but I, too, want the diesel.

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    Crazy, the hybrid gets essentially the same fuel economy as the current offering. Why bother?
    Subaru XV Crosstrek Hybrid revealed at New York auto show - Autoweek

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    Lame

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    Hybrids seem like some overly complicated interim solution on the way to electric cars and often the millage is no better than diesels which can run on old cooking oil.

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    Why don't they just add direct injection to it? Way better gas mileage and more power.....forget the stupid environment killing hybrid nonsense.

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    The only thing I can think of, and this is coming from someone who thinks a Crosstrek Hybrid is dumb, is that perhaps in reality, the hybrid will report much better figures than it's EPA averages. I can't imagine SoA would be that stupid to release it if it was only 3 and 1 mpg better.

    I also don't think the Crosstrek was the best choice for the hybrid. And this is where I usually whine about how we don't get diesels here from Subaru
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  95. #295
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    Haven't had that "pleasure" yet so I can't answer with any authority.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Hybrids seem like some overly complicated interim solution on the way to electric cars and often the millage is no better than diesels which can run on old cooking oil.
    Unfortunately this was true for many of the older diesels, but many of the new ones do not allow you to run veggie or high % bio diesel in many cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizRider View Post
    Unfortunately this was true for many of the older diesels, but many of the new ones do not allow you to run veggie or high % bio diesel in many cases.
    Bummer.

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    I don't get why anyone would spend the extra for a diesel in the US unless you do an insane amount of miles a year.

    If you look at the Jetta, the TDI is ~$2700 more with worse performance than equivalent model in gas.

    mpg = 23, 33 gas vs 33, 42 diesel.

    Current gas price where I live (CO) is $3.5 and diesel $3.85.

    Say you did 15k miles a year the savings are $358 city $215 highway annually on the diesel. If you do 50/50 city/highway you'll save $286 a year.

    It'll take over 9 years to save back the extra you spend on the diesel over the gas. Even if you did 30k miles a year it's still almost 5 years before you start to save a $ from the initial extra cost. If you had to finance at anything above 0% then it would take you even longer to claw back the additional cost.

    IMHO it just doesn't make sense to shell out the extra for such little savings and you also sacrifice performance.

    In Europe where gas prices are so much higher and emission regulations are less strict, then it makes sense, but here, not so much. Just my 2 cents...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbco1975 View Post
    I don't get why anyone would spend the extra for a diesel in the US unless you do an insane amount of miles a year.

    If you look at the Jetta, the TDI is ~$2700 more with worse performance than equivalent model in gas.

    mpg = 23, 33 gas vs 33, 42 diesel.

    Current gas price where I live (CO) is $3.5 and diesel $3.85.

    Say you did 15k miles a year the savings are $358 city $215 highway annually on the diesel. If you do 50/50 city/highway you'll save $286 a year.

    It'll take over 9 years to save back the extra you spend on the diesel over the gas. Even if you did 30k miles a year it's still almost 5 years before you start to save a $ from the initial extra cost. If you had to finance at anything above 0% then it would take you even longer to claw back the additional cost.

    IMHO it just doesn't make sense to shell out the extra for such little savings and you also sacrifice performance.

    In Europe where gas prices are so much higher and emission regulations are less strict, then it makes sense, but here, not so much. Just my 2 cents...
    The diesel doesn't necessarily have worse performance than the gas. The VW Sportwagen is available with the TDI or 5-cyl. The TDI has way more torque which results in a much sportier feeling ride. I think the Golf is available with the 2.0T, which yes, would be 'faster', but not necessarily better 'performing' which is a very subjective measurement.

    I bought a TDI Sportwagen for three main reasons, A) it's nice not having to fill up as often B) better 'performance' than the 5-cyl and C) resale, which you don't account for in your math. I still think the life cycle cost of a diesel vs gas is a wash though since a diesel is typically more expensive to maintain and IF (fingers crossed) you have a problem, it's BIG $$$.

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    People also report much better mpgs then the EPA tests with tdi's.

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