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  1. #1
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    will the US ever get a small diesel suv or ute?

    Dear American Car CEO,

    As much as you love that your full size truck is the size of an elephant, can tow a ship, weighs 7000lbs, gets 12mpg and has a comfy leather interior, I am not a construction foreman and perhaps do want want to be Mr Excessive.

    I want something real world practical that is the swiss army knife of vehicles that can do everything. You offer it overseas, bring it here!


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  2. #2
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    Sucks thats vehicles like that will probably never be brought here, beside most people think they need a yuppy sized suv/truck to haul a briefcase to work, god forbid they need to haul something more that 50 pounds cause they would buy a 3/4 or larger for that.

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    Agreed. Till then, I'll be driving my 14 year old, 212000 mile corrola into the ground. And then I'll ride my bike the rest of the way. Still get's ~30mpg highway (used to be 35+ back when she was younger). I'm not parting with my money till I get something with better mileage and more room. (secretly eye-ing the Sonota 2.0T and a tow hitch for carrying the bike.) And features, like functional seatbelts.

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    I had asked this same question on another forum. All we got are VW/Audi TDIs.

    Personally, I wanted the VW Sirocco; but it didn't make it over because the VW-US president said it would compete with the Golf and VW headquarters said it wouldn't be able to make a profit.

  5. #5
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    No, never, and you can thank hybrids plus tighter diesel emissions controls. Somebody was lobbying for batteries...Follow the money and you will find the answers.

    We were supposed to get the Accord Diesel
    We were supposed to get the Subaru diesel

  6. #6
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    The Touareg is available with VW's excellent turbo-diesel. Not cheap tho...

    VW Touareg TDI Clean Diesel < Volkswagen of America

  7. #7
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    We are American! We are afraid of diesel engines! We think they are noisy, stinky, and make big black clouds of smoke when you take off. Plus we prefer to subsidize corn and pursue an alternative fuel that cannot ever be a good alternative.

    I really wish there were more options for us besides a couple VW's and full size trucks. Stick a diesel in a small car based SUV and you can easily get mpg's deep into the 30's.

  8. #8
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    Jeep Liberty in 2005 & 2006. 2.8L VM CRD.
    Jeep Grand Cherokee in 2007 & 2008. 3.0L Mercedes CRD.
    Now owned by Fiat, Jeep will likely start seeing oil burners in a couple years.

    Where the heckfire is my Wrangler Diesel?!

    You can get new 2012 cars with diesel from VW, Mercedes, BMW & Audi.
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  9. #9
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    Yep when I bought my Tacoma new in 2001 I was wishing for a diesel version!!!
    "Ya can't argue logic with ignorance.''

  10. #10
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    Yeah, I really hate all of the politics involved with cars, it amazes me people still buy suv's that get terrible gas mileage and then don't use them for anything you'd need a truck or suv for. Maybe take a look at a Suberu outback? My friend has one, and with a bike rack on the top its quite versetile... works for camping, skiing, biking, hauling friends with gear. He threw a hitch rack on the back and with the rack on the top he can haul 4 guys with 4 bikes and gear quite comfortably. Good luck in your search.

  11. #11
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    I am not holding my breath, but Mazda still hasn't decided (according to reports) whether or not to bring the Skyactive-D (diesel) to the US in the CX-5.... I would be sold (almost without a test drive) if that happens!
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    You forgot to mention that most other countries in the world, often Canada, have the US models available with diesel engines.

    In Europe they have a mini-Cooper diesel that gets around 65 mpg. They also have a VW Sharan (it's a minivan that seats 7 and gets 40+ mpg; I drove one for two weeks this past summer and it was excellent), the Nissan Navarro (same as Frontier, with a diesel engine 30+ mpg), BMW 1 series (50+ mpg), and virtually every other vehicle available or not availalbe in the US with efficient diesel engines.

    Honda won't do diesel in the US, and Toyota is leaning towards hybrids. From what I've read, the RAV4 may be available as a plug-in hybrid in the next couple of years. Nissan isn't developing diesel for the US, BMW is releasing their 335D to the US market but not the ultra-efficient, smaller 1 series or Mini. Mazda and Hyundai are both rumored to be considering diesels, but it's only rumors, so it probably won't happen.

    I've been looking at this because I know eventually my 91 Civic will need to be replaced. I'd like to get a small 4WD capable machine, such as a Subaru or even a RAV4, but there's nothing on the market at this point. In the real world, Subaru's average in the low 20's MPG, and the RAV4/CRV isn't much better.

    VW makes nice diesels, but have you ever noticed that 3/4+ vehicles with a brake/tail light out are VWs? Makes me think their electrical systems aren't what they should be.

    Mercedes... they went to crap after Chrysler bought them. If I was looking to buy today, they wouldn't even be on my radar. In my opinion, they're one step up from Daewoo.

    The BMW 335D is $40k+, so it's definitely not a serious contender for me.
    Last edited by J_Hopper; 10-11-2011 at 11:38 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom93R1 View Post
    We are American! We are afraid of diesel engines! We think they are noisy, stinky, and make big black clouds of smoke when you take off. Plus we prefer to subsidize corn and pursue an alternative fuel that cannot ever be a good alternative.

    I really wish there were more options for us besides a couple VW's and full size trucks. Stick a diesel in a small car based SUV and you can easily get mpg's deep into the 30's.
    I dunno. Here in NorCal there are tons of modern VW TDIs running around. The older ones before the emissions pinch still fetch top dollar on craigslist. Maybe were in a little bubble around here, but seems to me there is no shortage of demand for diesels.

    I think if VW ever released a Tiguan TDI here in the states, it would sell really well.

    *edit*

    Looks like it won't be imported due to the 'chicken tax', a 25% tariff put in place in the 60s and left there to protect american light truck mfgs.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 10-12-2011 at 02:54 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Hopper View Post
    I've been looking at this because I know eventually my 91 Civic will need to be replaced. I'd like to get a small 4WD capable machine, such as a Subaru or even a RAV4, but there's nothing on the market at this point. In the real world, Subaru's average in the low 20's MPG, and the RAV4/CRV isn't much better..
    I don;t know how capable of 4wd you need but the Nissan Juke may work.

  15. #15
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    You would see a lot more diesels if ethanol was able to be added to it. Follow THAT corn money too, all the way back to every Iowa Caucus for either party.

    Jeep Liberty CRD is a great car, and you will pay a premium for it. (It is not really a Jeep, but it will still go most anywhere that you dare)

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Hopper View Post
    Mercedes... they went to crap after Chrysler bought them. If I was looking to buy today, they wouldn't even be on my radar. In my opinion, they're one step up from Daewoo.
    .
    Uh, Mercedes bought Chrysler not the other way around Agree about them being plagued by reliability. BMW and VW have similar issues...and have had them for years! VW makes several models I would consider, but not with the reliability ratings they continue to post up year after year. And then they have the nerve to expect a premium for their product??
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  17. #17
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    VW is large enough and has enough money they can push forward into the diesel market, which I commend them. Its not exactly a revelation. Its a matter of beating the stranglehold auto unions and our government has on our freedom of choices and innovation.

    The new diesel mixture laws for emissions coupled with California's nazi emission laws both make America a huge cost deterant. These special blend diesel fuel for America cost much higher to manufacturer then elsewhere. Every car sold also must pass Cali's nazi emission laws, and being such a huge market, most manu will pass and just stick to gas. Just like anything in business, It CAN be done, as long as car makers are willing to push for it. Pushing typically equals money though, which VW has spades of.

    Another part of the problem is supply chain (IE unions) - existing contracts and suppliers. Folks are unwilling to risk breaking existing relationships, especially in tough times and when costs are rising. Its not about what is best for consumers, its about what sells the most, and is best for stock prices, and what keeps inflated wages up. It may cost more at first, but pushing for diesel electric hybrids is the best interium solution until Audi can figure out their new sustainable fuel e-gas. Its just sad that even at minmium, we do not have the choice to import Mexican and Canada vehicles without insane costs and paperwork.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by motard5 View Post
    It may cost more at first, but pushing for diesel electric hybrids is the best interium solution until Audi can figure out their new sustainable fuel e-gas. .
    Why wait for Audi to figure anything out, Honda already has an Accord on the road in CA that runs on a hydrogen cell. Now if the government would subsidise that technology rather then wasting money on subsidies to the fuel and ethanol industries we would be moving forward.
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  19. #19
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    I work on marine diesels here in Seattle, and right next door is a VW lot. I used to love VW. but apparently their quality is subpar now compared to Ford or GM, go figure! That's according to the guys here who work on them, not a Car and Driver survery, btw.

    Sigh....I vote for the diesel-hybrid option!
    Good friction shifting is getting hard to find nowadays....

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicrown junkie View Post
    I work on marine diesels here in Seattle, and right next door is a VW lot. I used to love VW. but apparently their quality is subpar now compared to Ford or GM, go figure! That's according to the guys here who work on them, not a Car and Driver survery, btw.

    Sigh....I vote for the diesel-hybrid option!
    From what I hear in the industry there is some truth there. VW's top vehicles are still quality like their Audi counterparts, but Ze Germans are taking a page from the American book and targeting lower quality higher volume.

    Its simply ironic what is going on in the Auto world right now. Foreigh auto makers are placing their production facilities in America, and we are finally starting to do the same. Just look at GM's new huge diesel engine and production plant in Thailand to make the new Colorado.

    Bottom line though is that the BRIC countries are BOOMING and have bucko demand. American auto makers can take advantage of this demand coupled with increasing our domestic exports, as overseas markets place a premium on American made products.
    Last edited by motard5; 10-17-2011 at 08:36 PM.

  21. #21
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    Subaru was teasing bringing over their diesel to the U.S. over the past few years, but it's not happening. A diesel Forester would have been sweet.

    I sell Subarus, and I love them but I was very close to considering a Jetta TDI wagon as my next car, up until the new Jetta platform ended up sucking ass and being a decontented crap box compared to the prior version- and even with the prior version I was leery of quality.

    Oh and please don't get me started on the lack of diesels in the U.S... you can thank our emissions issues with our government, and also California, plus American ignorance towards diesels.

    What I don't get is how VW will sell them left and right but everyone else is afraid to. Sigh.

    The Mahindra small pickup would have been SWEET because there are zero small pickups available in America, but that appears to not be happening, and earlier in the 2000's there was supposed to be that Crosslander venture with that Romanian company whose name I forget, which was a neat looking small SUV (poor man's Defender 110), but that turned into vaporware.

  22. #22
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    The Mazda Skyactiv Gas 4 cylinder will be available in the US late 2011/early 2012. The Skyactiv diesel is soon to follow. The Skyactiv-G (gas) is reported to see over 40mpg in the Mazda 3 Hatchback on regular 87 octane producing 155hp through a 6 speed manual gearbox. Through the same gearbox in the same car, the Skyactiv D (diesel, twin turbo 4 cyl diesel btw) is reported to make over 50mpg. What I would love to see, and would purchase in a heartbeat. Would be the return of the Mazda B series truck in a crew cab with the Skyactiv-D. But I wont hold my breath. We are getting them in the Mazda 2's and 3's though, I can assure you.
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    Pretty sure Jeep liberty have them as an option and according to a google search grand cherokee will also in 2013..

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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX View Post
    ....Oh and please don't get me started on the lack of diesels in the U.S... you can thank our emissions issues with our government, and also California, plus American ignorance towards diesels.
    While you might be partly right, I don't think this is accurate about emissions. Emissions are often the scapegoat. If that really was the case, then:
    1- how does VW do it, but no other small diesel can?
    2- how can BMW meet US and CA emissions standards with their 3 series diesel, but not their 1 series and mini-Cooper?
    3- How can Ford, Chevy, and Dodge do it in their full size trucks, but not their small trucks?

    You see, the emissions argument doesn't make any sense. Sure, they may not be able to take something off the shelf and make it work, but with some effort it could be done.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by motard5 View Post
    Dear American Car CEO,

    As much as you love that your full size truck is the size of an elephant, can tow a ship, weighs 7000lbs, gets 12mpg and has a comfy leather interior, I am not a construction foreman and perhaps do want want to be Mr Excessive.

    I want something real world practical that is the swiss army knife of vehicles that can do everything. You offer it overseas, bring it here!
    As the owner of an 11 year old GMC truck that has been absolutely reliable, consistently gets 17mpg, and has room to spare, I agree with you. I would love to find decent smaller truck that gets better fuel economy that still manages to merge onto the freeway. The 4 cylinder compact trucks don't get it done, and the v6 trucks don't manage much better fuel economy than my Z71. Oh well, They'll never listen. The problem is that the compact trucks end up costing within ~$50/month of a fullsize, and with little difference in fuel economy, they just don't have a market.

  26. #26
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    Man, that Toyota HiLux looks sweet.

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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Hopper View Post
    You see, the emissions argument doesn't make any sense. Sure, they may not be able to take something off the shelf and make it work, but with some effort it could be done.
    It becomes a case of diminishing returns and the cost effectiveness of marketing a diesel in a country with limited diesel experience and some of the most stringent diesel emissions standards in the world. Diesel has been 50 or so cents more per gallon than regular unleaded (for at least the last 5 years) all the while the costs of meeting the continually increasing emissions requirements adds cost to the vehicle as well as diminishing the mileage advantage that diesels have. The U.S. has more stringent diesel emissions standards than just about all European countries. The fuel costs more, the diesel option adds expense to the initial purchase, and the MPG's are suffering as a result of added emissions equipment/additives.

    The argument about the domestic manufacturers diesel options is not valid when relating it to small diesel pickups, the HD trucks are held to different standards due to their GVW class. For SUV's look what happened when Jeep did offer a diesel option in their SUV's, it came in went in about 2 model years. VW intermittently offers an SUV with a diesel, which I think is on again for this model year. At this point Mahindra will likely have a diesel SUV or truck ready in time for the 2112 model year.

    I love diesel vehicles and have a Jetta TDi as well as a 3/4 Dodge diesel, but the cost of fuel has changed drastically from the time I bought the truck in '96. The mileage for a current model similar truck has also decreased nearly 20% due to added emissions equipment (and bragging rights in the torque wars).
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Hopper View Post
    You forgot to mention that most other countries in the world, often Canada, have the US models available with diesel engines.

    In Europe they have a mini-Cooper diesel that gets around 65 mpg. They also have a VW Sharan (it's a minivan that seats 7 and gets 40+ mpg; I drove one for two weeks this past summer and it was excellent), the Nissan Navarro (same as Frontier, with a diesel engine 30+ mpg), BMW 1 series (50+ mpg), and virtually every other vehicle available or not availalbe in the US with efficient diesel engines.
    The way mpg is calculated in Europe is VERY different from the US and there really isn't a direct conversion.

    Focus ECOnetic: Ford's 80-MPG car? - Driver's Seat - WSJ

    There are NO 80mpg Ford Focii by the US testing measures.... comparing the two really is apples to oranges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight511 View Post
    The way mpg is calculated in Europe is VERY different from the US and there really isn't a direct conversion.

    Focus ECOnetic: Ford's 80-MPG car? - Driver's Seat - WSJ

    There are NO 80mpg Ford Focii by the US testing measures.... comparing the two really is apples to oranges.
    While I'll agree that MPG may be calculated different by the government agencies assigned to calculate MPG, I can tell you my cousin had a Navarro in Ireland that got 30+ MPG for the kind of driving he was doing. I don't think the way he personally calculated it is any different from the way I'd calculate it.

    The other vehicles (mini-Cooper diesel, BMW 1 series diesel, etc. may be up for argument).

  30. #30
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    I call BS

    Quote Originally Posted by motard5 View Post
    VW is large enough and has enough money they can push forward into the diesel market, which I commend them. Its not exactly a revelation. Its a matter of beating the stranglehold auto unions and our government has on our freedom of choices and innovation.

    The new diesel mixture laws for emissions coupled with California's nazi emission laws both make America a huge cost deterant. These special blend diesel fuel for America cost much higher to manufacturer then elsewhere. Every car sold also must pass Cali's nazi emission laws, and being such a huge market, most manu will pass and just stick to gas. Just like anything in business, It CAN be done, as long as car makers are willing to push for it. Pushing typically equals money though, which VW has spades of.

    Another part of the problem is supply chain (IE unions) - existing contracts and suppliers. Folks are unwilling to risk breaking existing relationships, especially in tough times and when costs are rising. Its not about what is best for consumers, its about what sells the most, and is best for stock prices, and what keeps inflated wages up. It may cost more at first, but pushing for diesel electric hybrids is the best interium solution until Audi can figure out their new sustainable fuel e-gas. Its just sad that even at minmium, we do not have the choice to import Mexican and Canada vehicles without insane costs and paperwork.
    Don't blame the Unions. Unionized workers are basically making the same as just about everybody else did 30 years ago... it's just that everybody else's wages have slipped while Unionized workers wages remained flat.

    You know, cars from just about everywhere else in the world are built with Union labor.

    And I welcome the 'California Nazi' emissions standards. I lived in the Bay Area all my life, and I remember the brown air of the 70s and 80s, and how much cleaner it is today. I live in Oakland now, and if you have ever been down to the Port of Oakland on a workday, you can breathe the brown wind of death from all the idling trucks. I also remember how dirty diesels were, working at VW shops since the 80s. I'm glad they took most of the sulphur out of diesel, even if it did cause issues early on.

    If VW, BMW and Chrysler can do it, I can't see why other mfgs can't, especially when European emissions standards aren't that far behind California's. I think the reason is that the car mfgs don't think the demand is there, and I'm not convinced they are wrong. I mean, do the math: The VW TDis cost a couple thousand more, but probably won't save you those thousands in fuel savings until after your car loan is over.



    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX View Post
    I sell Subarus, and I love them but I was very close to considering a Jetta TDI wagon as my next car, up until the new Jetta platform ended up sucking ass and being a decontented crap box compared to the prior version- and even with the prior version I was leery of quality.
    Keep in mind the Jetta Wagon is a completely different car than the current Jetta sedan. The wagon is based on the European A chassis, while the new Jetta is a US only platform, similar to the US only new Passat.

    Yeah, the new Jetta sedan is completely cheaped out. I don't know what they were thinking. It even looks like something Chevy would make, not a VW.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 10-15-2011 at 10:39 AM.

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    Think we all want the same thing, a functional vehicle that gets 30+mpg. Yet keeping politics out of this discussion is like trying to find a budget hotel room today w/o bed bugs - difficult to impossible.

    As far as real MPG, non-emission controlled diesel's are impressive. While in Costa Rica, 8 of us rented a Toyota Hibus (van) to explore their country. For 2 weeks, we beat the hell out of it on all the mtn roads, dirt roads, made big stream X-ings, etc. and overall got 30 mpg. With only 94 HP it managed to haul us and all our gear up some amazingly steep pitches. Until I find something similar, I too will be driving my Accord wagon until she dies.
    [Since the MB/Chrysler split, Chrysler is owned by Cerebus - a pvt. hedge fund, and IMO should NEVER gotten bailout $$.] Oops, damn bedbugs..

  32. #32
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    Diesel is too expensive now for it to make sense most of the time now.

    I would rather see the price of E85 come down. It burns clean, is mostly renewable and more of the money stays in the US.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyin_W View Post
    I too will be driving my Accord wagon until she dies.
    How does your wagon do on gas mileage? I've been thinking about jumping to a cheapo Honda to save some cash lately and these things are cheap compared to others... And they only seem to be driven by old ladies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hammy35 View Post
    How does your wagon do on gas mileage? I've been thinking about jumping to a cheapo Honda to save some cash lately and these things are cheap compared to others... And they only seem to be driven by old ladies.
    With a 5 spd man, w/ 4 cyl. and bikes on roof rack I get 26-28, without 27-29, w/o rack 30-32 MPG. Some have told me that I drive like an old lady too, and I'm okay with that, as I cram it full of gear, stay under 75mph, and it's Mom-mobile look prevents tickets.

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrasmak View Post
    I don;t know how capable of 4wd you need but the Nissan Juke may work.
    The new Subarus with CTV transmissions are getting very good mileage. The 2012 Subaru Impreza due in a few months is claimed to get highest gas mileage of any AWD vehicle.

    I too would be interested in Jeep JKU with diesel option, and some of the pick-up trucks shown above look pretty interesting. I was also considering VW Jetta SportWagen TDI but there is lots of chatter on the TDI forums about HPFP failures that can end up being $7~8,000 repair if warranty doesn't cover. Scares me off and I wonder if reluctance of Subaru, Mazda, and others to jump into NA diesel market is tied to concerns about our poor fuel quality over here? Possibly tied to expensive failures and warranty charges? Can't speak for the States but her in Ontario VW sells out of TDIs every year, just can't bring in enough! Surprising other brands are not jumping on this bandwagon!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    The Mazda Skyactiv Gas 4 cylinder will be available in the US late 2011/early 2012. The Skyactiv diesel is soon to follow. The Skyactiv-G (gas) is reported to see over 40mpg in the Mazda 3 Hatchback on regular 87 octane producing 155hp through a 6 speed manual gearbox. Through the same gearbox in the same car, the Skyactiv D (diesel, twin turbo 4 cyl diesel btw) is reported to make over 50mpg. What I would love to see, and would purchase in a heartbeat. Would be the return of the Mazda B series truck in a crew cab with the Skyactiv-D. But I wont hold my breath. We are getting them in the Mazda 2's and 3's though, I can assure you.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCanoeDog View Post
    The new Subarus with CTV transmissions are getting very good mileage. The 2012 Subaru Impreza due in a few months is claimed to get highest gas mileage of any AWD vehicle.

    I too would be interested in Jeep JKU with diesel option, and some of the pick-up trucks shown above look pretty interesting. I was also considering VW Jetta SportWagen TDI but there is lots of chatter on the TDI forums about HPFP failures that can end up being $7~8,000 repair if warranty doesn't cover. Scares me off and I wonder if reluctance of Subaru, Mazda, and others to jump into NA diesel market is tied to concerns about our poor fuel quality over here? Possibly tied to expensive failures and warranty charges? Can't speak for the States but her in Ontario VW sells out of TDIs every year, just can't bring in enough! Surprising other brands are not jumping on this bandwagon!!

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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    And I welcome the 'California Nazi' emissions standards. I lived in the Bay Area all my life, and I remember the brown air of the 70s and 80s, and how much cleaner it is today. I live in Oakland now, and if you have ever been down to the Port of Oakland on a workday, you can breathe the brown wind of death from all the idling trucks. I also remember how dirty diesels were, working at VW shops since the 80s. I'm glad they took most of the sulphur out of diesel, even if it did cause issues early on.

    If VW, BMW and Chrysler can do it, I can't see why other mfgs can't, especially when European emissions standards aren't that far behind California's. I think the reason is that the car mfgs don't think the demand is there, and I'm not convinced they are wrong. I mean, do the math: The VW TDis cost a couple thousand more, but probably won't save you those thousands in fuel savings until after your car loan is over.
    You seriously think the lack of diesel sales these days in the US have anything to do with actual demand? Please. Diesels properly marketed and with the production backing will sell better than gas vehicles, as MPG is the name of the game these days. MPG > HP in consumer eyes these days for their everyday vehicles. But for now it has been about how our existing supply chain is operating, and what is most cost effective to produce. In the past changes in such a complex system take years to overcome, but these days it can be done much quicker. Its a just a matter of time though, especially as global vehicle demand continues to skyrocket.

    and trust me I am all for better emissions, but because California cannot get their act together and reduce their insane suburban sprawl and traffic due to lack of public and bike transportation does not mean the entire country should suffer. The US is subjected to inefficient behemoths with low MPG that sip and burn holistically many, many more gallons of fuel period. Think of the insane amounts of manufacturing and materials that have also gone into engine and exhaust emissions equipment alone, when perhaps streamlining and working with a more efficient engine design that burns less overall from an easier to refine fuel is better? or vehicles that perhaps are not so excessive.

  38. #38
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    Supposedly

    GM is coming out with a diesel version of the Chevy Cruze for 2013. I read it on the internet so it must be true.

    I recently bought a Cruze Eco (1.4L, turbo, gas, 6 spd) and get better than the window sticker mileage because my commute is mostly highway, but only going about 65mph max due to traffic, pretty much hitting the sweet spot for this drive train.

    I am thinking that if the diesel is a success, they would run it in other vehicles as well. GM has a history of using a few engines across most of their fleet (like most auto manfs). So, with some luck, it may make it to the Colorado (or whatever the next small truck is called) platform, where the torque of a diesel would really be handy.

    The problem is, with the little gasser getting similar mileage on regular pump gas, the diesel fuel costing the same as premium gas makes it have a higher operating cost.

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    I really dont understand why its so difficult honestly, especially for GM. My dad has a 03 corvette with a6 speed manual transmission. It makes just shy of 350bhp and almost 400 ft lbs of torque, meanwhile it gets an average of about 27-28mpg and over 30mpg on the highway. Sure it operates on premium gas, but it could be tuned on 87 octane and only sacrifice a little hp. My 02 camaro, even with the 4 speed automatic and 3.42 gearing makes just shy of 350hp, and almost 400 ft lbs of torque, it gets an average of 22mpg aorund town and over 25 on the highway. And thats with an old technology pushrod v8. Its not a matter of it cant be done, its a matter of someone having the intestinal fortitude to do it,.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkMoneyLove View Post
    GM is coming out with a diesel version of the Chevy Cruze for 2013. I read it on the internet so it must be true.

    I recently bought a Cruze Eco (1.4L, turbo, gas, 6 spd) and get better than the window sticker mileage because my commute is mostly highway, but only going about 65mph max due to traffic, pretty much hitting the sweet spot for this drive train.

    I am thinking that if the diesel is a success, they would run it in other vehicles as well. GM has a history of using a few engines across most of their fleet (like most auto manfs). So, with some luck, it may make it to the Colorado (or whatever the next small truck is called) platform, where the torque of a diesel would really be handy.

    The problem is, with the little gasser getting similar mileage on regular pump gas, the diesel fuel costing the same as premium gas makes it have a higher operating cost.
    I think the bigger attraction of diesel (for me anyway)is for larger vehicles, namely SUVs, Jeeps, and trucks
    like F150 which currently have very poor fuel economy,,,getting these up to an acceptable range.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    I really dont understand why its so difficult honestly, especially for GM. My dad has a 03 corvette with a6 speed manual transmission. It makes just shy of 350bhp and almost 400 ft lbs of torque, meanwhile it gets an average of about 27-28mpg and over 30mpg on the highway. Sure it operates on premium gas, but it could be tuned on 87 octane and only sacrifice a little hp. My 02 camaro, even with the 4 speed automatic and 3.42 gearing makes just shy of 350hp, and almost 400 ft lbs of torque, it gets an average of 22mpg aorund town and over 25 on the highway. And thats with an old technology pushrod v8. Its not a matter of it cant be done, its a matter of someone having the intestinal fortitude to do it,.
    The corvette has a super low Cd, there is enough room for 2 people and a duffel bag or two. Not really the best example IMO. Better are some of the sedans getting near 35mpg with V6s and decent HP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    The corvette has a super low Cd, there is enough room for 2 people and a duffel bag or two. Not really the best example IMO. Better are some of the sedans getting near 35mpg with V6s and decent HP.
    Point being, if 30+mpg can be achieved, then 35-40+ out of a decently powerful v6 ought to be a piece of cake. I can only shake my head when im seeing 2012 4 cylinder cars with less than 180hp barely hitting 30mpg.
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    have any of you done a cost/benefit analysis on diesel vs petrol? you pretty much need to drive 100k miles to make up the difference in cost. until the cost of diesel powered cars comes down, it wont be worth it. keep driving the cheaper gas powered car.
    you can start flaming now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by billmania View Post
    have any of you done a cost/benefit analysis on diesel vs petrol? you pretty much need to drive 100k miles to make up the difference in cost. until the cost of diesel powered cars comes down, it wont be worth it. keep driving the cheaper gas powered car.
    you can start flaming now.
    That works out great unless you're at altitude. Diesel fuel is the same everywhere, and the turbocharged engines bring their own atmosphere so it's easy to keep making power. I took my 300hp truck to 10000' and it felt like it made ~200hp. I don't even want to drive my 4 cylinder Accord up in the mountains. Whereas a little TDI jetta or similar would truck right along with nary a whimper.

  45. #45
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    The movie FUEL (highly recommended) makes some interesting points about diesel. If Toyota brought a mid sized diesel truck (not SUV) to the US I would buy one and run vegetable oil.

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    Im seriously debating converting my car to ethanol and running e90/e85/e70.
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    I don't know about diesel Toyotas, but in the newer high pressure diesel systems that VW uses (25,000 psi) you cannot run vegetable oil. The fuel requirements are so strict that the variations you get with vegetable oil and even biodiesel such as moisture can kill the fuel pumps right away.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by billmania View Post
    have any of you done a cost/benefit analysis on diesel vs petrol? you pretty much need to drive 100k miles to make up the difference in cost. until the cost of diesel powered cars comes down, it wont be worth it. keep driving the cheaper gas powered car.
    you can start flaming now.
    I would love to see this too. Do you know of any or have links to a study like that?
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    Something I just learned that I find interesting... the 2012 Subaru Imprezza is said to get 36 mph HWY, which is a 30% improvement over the 2011 model year. Keep in mind it's AWD, so gas mileage is going to suffer compared to FWD vehicles. If Subaru can do it in one year, why is it only baby steps with all the other car makers?

    Also, has anyone seen the BMW i3? It looks interesting, but is only a concept now and may come out to the masses in 2013. It's all electric with a small on-board gas engine that's a generator for the batteries (it's not hooked up to the drive train). I wonder how it'll do.

    Back to the original topic, the appeal of diesel to me is that I could tow my Bigfoot travel trailer with a smaller diesel (such as the HiLux) while still getting acceptable MPGs.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Hopper View Post
    Something I just learned that I find interesting... the 2012 Subaru Imprezza is said to get 36 mph HWY, which is a 30% improvement over the 2011 model year. Keep in mind it's AWD, so gas mileage is going to suffer compared to FWD vehicles. If Subaru can do it in one year, why is it only baby steps with all the other car makers?

    Also, has anyone seen the BMW i3? It looks interesting, but is only a concept now and may come out to the masses in 2013. It's all electric with a small on-board gas engine that's a generator for the batteries (it's not hooked up to the drive train). I wonder how it'll do.

    Back to the original topic, the appeal of diesel to me is that I could tow my Bigfoot travel trailer with a smaller diesel (such as the HiLux) while still getting acceptable MPGs.
    I haven't looked into this in detail but the '12 Impreza is down 0.5 L and probably 20~25 hp from the previous model. Car is lighter so acceleration is in the same ball park. Also the CTV transmission is a factor. Subaru looks to be chasing significant improvement because the negative side of AWD is a mileage penalty. Ford has been doing some interesting stuff with their Ecoboost engines. Only Chrysler seems to be well behind the curve in their Jeep line...no surprise there!
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