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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71
    The 04 & 05 forester had the 2.5 from the STI and makes peak Torque at 3500rpm. Of course just about any car will benefit from a hard launch, 350Z included, but a reasonably casual launch in the FXT (under 2,000 rpm) will have you pinned to your seat.

    I'm sure the 350Z will make good at higher speed, but the FXT is still quicker in the 1/4 mile (at over 90MPH). AWD or not I'd hardly call a high 13's car "not that fast".

    The 350z is a much nicer car in so many ways and if I lived back in Australia and didn't have a baby on the way, I wouldn't even give the FXT a second look. I prefer a naturally aspirated RWD car, but not when driving at 5,000-11,000 feet in all kinds of weather. Remember that a naturally aspirated car looses 3% of it HP for every 1,000ft of altitude. A turbo looses some power as well, but not as much.

    The forester is a good car with some get up and go, but it's no Z and that commercial/advertisement was pretty misleading due to the 0-60 acceleration requiring a clutch slip, but that's a known thing with subarus. WRXs are easily beat as well with cars that have more power, but rarely "off the line".


    However there is no denying that while the FXT is no super car, it has incredible real world performance for a stock "SUV" and it's power is very accessible.
    ???
    Not according to all the information I can find, Zs can do 13.6 or so stock, foresters are 14 or above for the 1/4 mile. ???

    There's also the issue of the huge driveline losses you have with AWD, around 60hp for the stock vehicles, the nissan Z and other cars that aren't powering all wheels retain a lot more horsepower, in fact vehicles with less hp than the forester and wrx can give it a run for it's money in a straight line, and sometimes in turns as well due to the soft suspension on the newer subies, although it depends then on the surface and other factors where awd might be better. Check out a mazda MS3 if you want to see something that's quite a bit faster. No awd is a dissapointer, but the thing can easily dust any forester or wrx in stock trim, even give an sti a run for the money, but the sti is a better vehicle in many ways such as brakes and handling.

    The forester xt is a car that has some get up and go, but the adds are kind of misleading and a Z will smoke it in most situations.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    ???
    Not according to all the information I can find, Zs can do 13.6 or so stock, foresters are 14 or above for the 1/4 mile. ???

    There's also the issue of the huge driveline losses you have with AWD, around 60hp for the stock vehicles, the nissan Z and other cars that aren't powering all wheels retain a lot more horsepower, in fact vehicles with less hp than the forester and wrx can give it a run for it's money in a straight line, and sometimes in turns as well due to the soft suspension on the newer subies, although it depends then on the surface and other factors where awd might be better. Check out a mazda MS3 if you want to see something that's quite a bit faster. No awd is a dissapointer, but the thing can easily dust any forester or wrx in stock trim, even give an sti a run for the money, but the sti is a better vehicle in many ways such as brakes and handling.

    The forester xt is a car that has some get up and go, but the adds are kind of misleading and a Z will smoke it in most situations.
    The 04' & 05' FXT's have very short gearing, which they changed in 06 onward to improve gas millage. The 04 FXT's were also underrated by about 30hp. Car and driver had it 13.8 in the 1/4, the 06+ XT's can't match that time though, so maybe that's what your thinking of.

    Anyway, here are the numbers recorded at http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html

    2004 Nissan 350z Roadster 5.7 14.3
    2004 Nissan 350Z 5.3 13.77 (M.T. Mar '04)
    2005 Nissan 350Z 35th Anniversary Edition 6 Speed 5.8 14.3 (C&D Apr '05)

    2004 Subaru Forester 2.5 XT, Turbo 5.3 13.8 (C&D Aug '03)
    2007 Subaru Forester 2.5XT 5.9 14.3 (C&D Online)

    At altitude, the FXT is going to do even better relative to the 350Z. Throw in some real world Colorado conditions like gravel, crappy Denver roads, rain/snow...

    Stock for stock I'm sure the 350Z will eat the FXT alive on a track or autocross. The 350Z will out brake, out turn and out handle the FXT. My wifes other car is 96 Mazda Miata with upgraded sway bars, brake pads and Falken Azenis tires (close to race rubber) so I know first hand what a nice light weight RWD car do at an autocross.

    However in the end the numbers mean nothing unless the car is fun to drive in your typical day to day conditions.

    {edit} sorry to the OP for the thread jack... at least we're still talking about Subarus, right!?
    Last edited by Steve71; 04-10-2008 at 01:40 PM.
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  3. #53
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    Lets just settle this right here and right now.

    Someone who owns a Z go throw 3 mountain bikes in the back of it.

    Now, someone here with a Forester do the same.

    'nuff said

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71

    2004 Subaru Forester 2.5 XT, Turbo 5.3 13.8 (C&D Aug '03)
    2007 Subaru Forester 2.5XT 5.9 14.3 (C&D Online)

    At altitude, the FXT is going to do even better relative to the 350Z. Throw in some real world Colorado conditions like gravel, crappy Denver roads, rain/snow...
    The limited number of data points means that data is useless, sorry.

    At altitude, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you drop a pretty good amount of power as you get higher, it's not like our turbocharged airplanes that maintain sea-level power untill a certain altitude, they drop off just like everything else, and with similer turbos and settings it's going to drop off an inch of so for every thousand feet. Otherwise, your turbo would be working "harder" up at altitude than it does at sea level. People don't really want that because if your turbo can then do "it" at altitude, then it can do "more" at a lower altitude. In the airplane-world, we use turbos to maintain sea-level power up to something called a "critical altitude", which could be up at 15,000' or something, allowing the aircraft to cruise up to 20,000 or more with a piston engine. In this case, we work the turbos "harder" at higher altitude, but the entire system isn't designed to deliver more than sea-level power.

    Again, an FXT is a nice vehicle with some get up and go, but it does so due to the AWD and being able to deliver that power with no spin. That "sti" engine doesn't mean that much as it's only .5l bigger than a 2.0 and it's the turbo that is really the heart of the car. Low boost=low hp, not that it's a good idea to always build huge boost. You can pump up an FXR or any other car to go "real fast", but again to equal a car with better brakes and handling and such then requires an almost endless amount of mods.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    The limited number of data points means that data is useless, sorry.

    At altitude, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you drop a pretty good amount of power as you get higher, it's not like our turbocharged airplanes that maintain sea-level power untill a certain altitude, they drop off just like everything else, and with similer turbos and settings it's going to drop off an inch of so for every thousand feet. Otherwise, your turbo would be working "harder" up at altitude than it does at sea level. People don't really want that because if your turbo can then do "it" at altitude, then it can do "more" at a lower altitude. In the airplane-world, we use turbos to maintain sea-level power up to something called a "critical altitude", which could be up at 15,000' or something, allowing the aircraft to cruise up to 20,000 or more with a piston engine. In this case, we work the turbos "harder" at higher altitude, but the entire system isn't designed to deliver more than sea-level power.

    Again, an FXT is a nice vehicle with some get up and go, but it does so due to the AWD and being able to deliver that power with no spin. That "sti" engine doesn't mean that much as it's only .5l bigger than a 2.0 and it's the turbo that is really the heart of the car. Low boost=low hp, not that it's a good idea to always build huge boost. You can pump up an FXR or any other car to go "real fast", but again to equal a car with better brakes and handling and such then requires an almost endless amount of mods.
    Useless? I think most people would agree that the one data point that counts is, who crossed the line first, and if 1/4 mile times from a reputable publication (Car and Driver) doesn't count, then I don't know what does. Sure it doesn't tell the whole story on a car, but the FACT is in 2004, the FXT out ran the 350z in the 1/4 mile (up to 97MPH). Of course we could modify the rules of the race to favor one car of the other (i.e. rolling start, rain/snow/dirt) it's an endless argument then. They are both fast cars designed for total different purposes.

    As far as the FXT being fast because it's AWD? Sorry, but that's just not the case. Sure the AWD helps it get off the mark, but if AWD is all it took, then all subaru's in this thread should be getting high 13's . If we were talking about the 2.0 WRX I'd agree. It's just doesn't feel fast but if you get the chance to drive a 04-05 FXT you'll see what I mean.

    The 2.5 from the sti isn't just and additional 0.5l of displacement over the 2.0. It has AVCS (and a bunch of other goodies) which helps with low end torque.

    Active Valve Control System
    The STi's dual over-head camshaft (DOHC) cylinder heads use hollow camshafts to reduce mass. Shimless cam followers reduce valvetrain mass to enhance response. The WRX STi powerplant incorporates Subaru's Active Valve Control System variable valve timing technology to optimize the engine's volumetric efficiency throughout the rev band.

    Active Valve Control adjusts intake camshaft timing to employ the ideal intake and exhaust valve overlap under all engine operating conditions. The system helps eliminate the traditional compromise between low-end torque and high-rpm horsepower and also helps to enhance fuel economy and reduce emissions.

    The Active Valve Control System can rotate the intake camshafts through a range of 35 degrees relative to the crankshaft. The Engine Control Module (ECM) regulates this movement, based on input from various sensors - airflow, engine coolant temperature, throttle position and camshaft position. The ECM generates an electrical output signal to an oil control valve positioned at each intake camshaft sprocket. Oil pressure is then varied within "advance" and "retard" chambers inside the Active Valve Control System actuator. The system calls upon computer maps to respond to various driving conditions, providing ideal valve timing for stable engine idling and optimum torque across the engine speed range.
    As far as altitude goes, yes all cars will lose power unless they have altitude correction (Audi does apparently). However a turbo will loose less power relative to a NA car (agree?) - at least from all the reading I've done on the subject. I should have saved the links since he worked out the math and it was a very interesting read.
    Last edited by Steve71; 04-10-2008 at 06:05 PM.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71
    Useless? I think most people would agree that the one data point that counts is, who crossed the line first, and if 1/4 mile times from a reputable publication (Car and Driver) doesn't count, then I don't know what does. Sure it doesn't tell the whole story on a car, but the FACT is in 2004, the FXT out ran the 350z in the 1/4 mile (up to 97MPH). Of course we could modify the rules of the race to favor one car of the other (i.e. rolling start, rain/snow/dirt) it's an endless argument then. They are both fast cars.

    As far as the FXT being fast because it's AWD? Sorry, but that's just not the case. Sure the AWD helps it get off the mark, but if AWD is all it took, then all subaru's in this thread should be getting high 13's . If we were talking about the 2.0 WRX I'd agree. It's just doesn't feel fast but if you get the chance to drive a 04-05 FXT you'll see what I mean.

    The 2.5 from the sti isn't just and additional 0.5l of displacement over the 2.0. It has AVCS (and a bunch of other goodies) which helps with low end torque.



    As far as altitude goes, yes all cars will lose power unless they have altitude correction (Audi does apparently). However a turbo will loose less power relative to a NA car (agree?) - at least from all the reading I've done on the subject. I should have saved the links since he worked out the math and it was a very interesting read.
    More info for you from nasioc;

    But Kevin, their have been plenty of tests of the 350Z that has gotten 0-60 times of 5.4-5.5 seconds and 1/4 mile times of 14.1 @ 100+ mph.
    These times are also duplicated by the owners at the tracks.

    On the other hand, the times that C & D got for the FXT are HIGHLY suspicious and questioned by MANY. That time has NEVER been duplicated by ANY OTHER testing magazine who tested the car, and search this and the Forester board...no owner has duplicated those times at the track either.
    They seem to be running a best time of 14.2 at 92-94 mph the track and averaging slower than that.


    In a full on race, the FXT would jump about a car length at the start and then the 350Z would begin reeling it in right away, and never look back shortly thereafter."
    I've also never understood the "oh, it's an underrated car" thing. What, does it dyno then 20hp higher or whatever? No? Then how the hell is it "underrated". I know they say the same thing about my car, but you put it on a dyno and see how much hp is at the wheels, then add the amount of known drivetrain loss= cars rated horsepower, so where does all this magical "underrated" power come from?

    In any case, just as the poster above said, no one is getting sub 14 second quater-miles with stock foresters, the C and D figures have not been duplicated by any other testers, and every post I've found on nasioc of someone running under 14 in a forester has something like an sti turbo, exhaust and EM at the least, so that number is just BS, again, usless. The forester is no supercar, and a Z will eat it for lunch in 95% of situations, but yes if you clutch drop from a standstill you'll get a car length for a little while (to 60mph). Perhaps a quicker 0-60 in that specific situation (not a rolling 5-60). The Z eats it on the quarter mile and everywhere else.
    Last edited by Jayem; 04-10-2008 at 06:21 PM.
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  7. #57
    Uphill isn't a sport!!
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    Yay... did you two finally figure it out?

    The 350Z is a sports car.

    The Forester is a SUV.


    Call a truce??

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    More info for you from nasioc;

    "But Kevin, their have been plenty of tests of the 350Z that has gotten 0-60 times of 5.4-5.5 seconds and 1/4 mile times of 14.1 @ 100+ mph.
    These times are also duplicated by the owners at the tracks.

    On the other hand, the times that C & D got for the FXT are HIGHLY suspicious and questioned by MANY. That time has NEVER been duplicated by ANY OTHER testing magazine who tested the car, and search this and the Forester board...no owner has duplicated those times at the track either.
    They seem to be running a best time of 14.2 at 92-94 mph the track and averaging slower than that.


    In a full on race, the FXT would jump about a car length at the start and then the 350Z would begin reeling it in right away, and never look back shortly thereafter."

    I've also never understood the "oh, it's an underrated car" thing. What, does it dyno then 20hp higher or whatever? No? Then how the hell is it "underrated". I know they say the same thing about my car, but you put it on a dyno and see how much hp is at the wheels, then add the amount of known drivetrain loss= cars rated horsepower, so where does all this magical "underrated" power come from?

    A lot of people questioned the FXT times at first due the published 210hp rating from Subaru. As it turns out the FXT has about 240-250HP. Not to mention that most people forget to factor in the ultra low gearing on the FXT.

    If you know the % drive train loss, then you can calculate the crank HP from the wheel HP.

    Not a good idea to compare 1/4 mile times by different drivers at different tracks. What was the date of that post?
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71
    A lot of people questioned the FXT times at first due the published 210hp rating from Subaru. As it turns out the FXT has about 240-250HP. Not to mention that most people forget to factor in the ultra low gearing on the FXT.

    If you know the % drive train loss, then you can calculate the crank HP from the wheel HP.

    Not a good idea to compare 1/4 mile times by different drivers at different tracks. What was the date of that post?
    Uhh, no, these AWD cars loose about 25% of their power to the driveline, that means 60hp for a 230hp wrx and about 50hp for a 220hp forester, subtract the 50hp and you're left with 170 at the wheels, which is where most of the foresters that I've just looked up dyno at. Not severely "underrated" at all. Actually just about right where they're supposed to be. Even if they are "underrated" we're talking about 10hp or so, not 30-40hp...heh.. One of the problems here though is that people tend to apply that "60hp" for the wrx value to all the cars, and assume it's the same, well it's not because it's more like a percentage, so it's not 60hp for every car, but if you start doing that you think that your forester should dyno at 150hp or something, then it dynos at 170, wow! it must be severely underrated!
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard
    I have questions to subaru owners:

    does the windows of subaru leak in air during hwy travel?

    how reliable is subaru engine over 5yr period?

    Is there major mechanical break down for subaru?
    i have a 2000 legacy wagon and problems just keep coming.
    160k - auto transmission replaced
    168k - head gaskets, rear seal
    174k - power steering rack
    drivers window controls replaced twice
    corrosion to chassis is unlike anything i've seen before. rust everywhere. you definately have to undercoat to protect.
    would i buy another?? i don't think so....if your looking for a 5yr commitment you'll probably be ok depending on mileage. I have heard that tranny problems for my model year were due to cooling issues which were remedied for 01 model year.

  11. #61
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    Don't know what else I can say, I conceded your point that the 350Z is faster in a number of situations, yet you fail to acknowledge that the FXT's faster or, at worst equal in 1/4 mile times. Apparently there's been a few documented high 13's with a stock 04/05 FXT's and I'd image that most FXT's never get taken to the Drag stip. Over and out.

    http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulle...highlight=13.8
    http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulle...highlight=13.8
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  12. #62
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    love my bugeye WRX wagon...




    dog likes it too...

  13. #63
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    My wife's got an 04 Impreza, we've also had a 97 Legacy sedan and a 1993 Impreza.
    Here's a pic of my buddies Impreza driving up a Ski hill a couple of weeks ago though, much cooler than my wifes car...
    DSC09305.JPG

  14. #64
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    Hey can we stop the 350z v. Forrester argument. They are two different types of cars. Quit the bench racing. If you want to settle it meet somewhere (hopefully a track) and race. Maybe make it an all day event! (with a little rally action.)

  15. #65
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    forester is a bunch of power in a silly imitation suv body, and you have to pull the fender to change a 200$ light bulb in a 350z. Both are ridiculous.

    How often does a stock 350z roll up and drag race a stock forester? Since nobody knows, we have to assume it never happens, and so the results are pretty damn unimportant.
    .

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard
    I have questions to subaru owners:

    does the windows of subaru leak in air during hwy travel?

    how reliable is subaru engine over 5yr period?

    Is there major mechanical break down for subaru?

    Subarus are great cars for sure, very dependable, excellent safety record, good mileage and such. But the window leaking air is something that's kept me from pulling the trigger on one. Well that and the fact I just can't get the seating position into a place that's comfortable for me. I know two people with Foresters and they both whistle on the highway. They also leak when they wash their cars. Not saying its something really common or anything like that, but its been a deal breaker for me. Maybe I'm paranoid. The new Forester has a frame around the window so it should seal better. I think it looks better too, but that's a personal thing. So does the Tribeca. Those two have been on my short list for a replacement for my Tundra.
    The red couch has moved from Alaska to Florida...

  17. #67
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    95 Impreza L

  18. #68
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    Just bought a 2008 STi a few weeks ago and am loving it. I'm just folding down the seats and throwing the bike in the back.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by faustus
    Just bought a 2008 STi a few weeks ago and am loving it. I'm just folding down the seats and throwing the bike in the back.
    Pics, faustus, pics of the STI!

  20. #70
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    Well, does test drive count...?
    http://www.dhcars.co.uk/images/NewSu...llpaper_04.jpg



    Interior was quite average but the drive was NICE...ill keep the Brera though.
    Last edited by Sim2u; 04-13-2008 at 08:13 AM.

  21. #71
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    I raced an '07 STI in the SCCA RallyCross National Challenge series last year, and moved to an '08 for this season. Subaru builds 'em tough, and they're the fastest thing on the dirt.

    I'll be using the '08 to shuttle my bike to the XC races this year, so I've gone with the factory roof bars with Thule Peleton's.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK Chris
    I know two people with Foresters and they both whistle on the highway. They also leak when they wash their cars. Not saying its something really common or anything like that, but its been a deal breaker for me. Maybe I'm paranoid. The new Forester has a frame around the window so it should seal better.
    All the new Subies have framed windows now. Cannot comment on the Foresters, but my '02 WRX wagon has always been tight despite frameless windows. No noise or leaks and it's 6.5 yrs old now. We have harsh winters to deal with also...oh and did I say I love this car?

  23. #73
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    Another plus for the Impreza line is that it is still being built in Japan. The Legacy lineup for North America is built in the USA.

  24. #74
    Nat
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    Have you all seen this Subaru commercial?


  25. #75
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    Had not seen that one Nat ( I don't watch much TV) but I do like to grab WRC torrents from here. Some amazing driving
    http://www.rallytorrents.com/

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