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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotBlack
    Wow, prodigal son, way to avoid making any real points...


    Just sayin.

    But hey, enjoy your Al Gore fixation.

    My point was this; if you are going to talk the talk of an "environmentalist", you better be able to walk the walk. I admit I don't pass a strict test but then neither do you or Tunica. But he hypocritically talks like he can. Just sayin. And in keeping in the spirit of thread hijacking, why don't we all enjoy Al Gore...



    "Futurama" (1999)

    Van: Thank you all for coming. It is my pleasure to present the host of the Kyoto global warming conference. The inventor of the environment, and first emperor of the moon, Al Gore!

    Al Gore: My fellow Earthicans. As I discuss in my book, Earth in the Balance, and the more popular, Harry Potter and the Balance of the Earth, we need to protect ourselves against pollution, as well as dark wizards.

    Al Gore: I must go now, to help collect cans on Jupiter.

    Al Gore: Peace out, y'all.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #102
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    Sorry Prodigal. You do not walk the walk, nor talk the talk. You walk the walk of your own self-interest, and you talk the talk of a politics fan, taking your cues from politicians, who are almost always the least informed and last to know what they're talking about.

    The fact that you're quoting a satirical cartoon is especially revealing. There are valid arguments to make on your side. I've left them up to you to make, and you haven't even touched on any of them.

    Perhaps we could all just do each other a favor and get back to what the thread was about in the first place?

  3. #103
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    this thread is hilarious

    now im going to go check ebay for small campers i can tow...i like that idea...

  4. #104
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    Note, this is not a personal attack on anyone, just observations.

    Prodigal Son, ironically, the way you chose to attack tunicatrails by definition applies to you as well. You say that he lives his life according to the standards he sees as best, and makes his actions fit accordingly. Then you say well, that gives you no right to impose your will on others.

    You live your life the same way. I do too. I am writing this because it seems like the best action for me to do at the time. So I do it. It would not be rational to live any other way. So now there is just all these different reference points coming in about what is right, what is wasteful, and what is not. You say he is not objective, and can't tell others what to do. I say you suffer from the exact same situation. Again, ironically, this post does too.

    This kind of represents my issue with much of the environmental movement. While I sympathize with many views, I can't really ally myself with them. The problem is end-based reasoning. Using end-based reasoning, anything is justifiable, or not justifiable. If we look at the earth and say, this is where we need to be, and doing actions that get us there are right, we will be in deep doodoo. Outlandish things can be justified, because the end goal makes them alright. The same goes for criticism too. Anything can be made to be bad, and not conducive towards the final goal. Personally, the way I think it should work is our actions and the things we live by should result in a world that is happy/sustainable/whatever, rather than the idea of that world dictating our current actions. For example, we could say that we want to be energy independent or something in ten years. That would be "good." Now, a way to do that would be to cull our population to a size that can live off the resources in our own area. That would result in a goal that is good, right? Action justified.
    I say no. What we live by should not determined by where we want to go, but where we go should be determined by how we live now.

    I guess what I'm saying is, your accusation of tunicatrails operates on faulty logic. You say people aren't held to his standards, because his voice is not objective. News flash, yours isn't either, and neither is mine.
    i smell a rat-Patrick Henry

  5. #105
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    What bothers me most about large rv's (besides the high cost of driving/maintaining one) , is the absence of simplification. Who needs all that crap when you're camping/biking/hiking in the woods/mountains/desert? To me it's all about keeping things simple - if you need to take all that stuff w/ you, you might as well stay at home. It seems to go against the whole idea of biking as a means of transport, but I guess if you're rich and can afford to drive a vehicle that get 7 or 8 mpg, then more power to you. All that said, we roll in an '85 Westy that gets 'round 20 mpg - so who am I to judge?

  6. #106
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    I'm going to use one gallon of gasoline driving around aimlessly today just because I can.


  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckylarue
    All that said, we roll in an '85 Westy that gets 'round 20 mpg - so who am I to judge?
    Woot.

    van.jpg

    You don't have to take it ALL with you. But having some of IT along is pretty nice.

    And it beats sleeping on the dirt.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotBlack
    Sorry Prodigal. You do not walk the walk, nor talk the talk. You walk the walk of your own self-interest, and you talk the talk of a politics fan, taking your cues from politicians, who are almost always the least informed and last to know what they're talking about.

    The fact that you're quoting a satirical cartoon is especially revealing. There are valid arguments to make on your side. I've left them up to you to make, and you haven't even touched on any of them.

    Perhaps we could all just do each other a favor and get back to what the thread was about in the first place?
    Shouldn't you be 'living off the grid' somewhere?


  9. #109
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    well the reason for the big rv for me is that we have ALOT of toys. 11 dirtbikes/quads, golfcart, utv, sandrail etc. we dont use it for the animals or the environment we use it for the comfort of home when were away for well over 1/2 the year racing nationally. my mountain bike hasnt even SEEN the inside of the trailer. only the back of my truck. to me our trailer isnt even big enough most races... maybe ill have to get two just to make up for the hippies here... OH our tow trucks get around 14mpg towing them. have a great day, and go hug a tree for me.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr
    Shouldn't you be 'living off the grid' somewhere?

    Erm, no. The grid pays me (admittedly a pittance) each month. As long as you guys keep consuming more than you generate, and operate your lives at a loss, I profit a tiny amount at your expense. Goes toward buying more materials for eventual replacement of the equipment.

    I do own an island and the residence there is obviously off the grid, but I don't live there full time as of yet.

    Anything else, Mr? Are our fragile little egos & guilty consciences sufficiently fortified to get back to the case for RVs, even if it is just pictures? I'm still interested and open to being convinced.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotBlack
    Sorry Prodigal. You do not walk the walk, nor talk the talk. You walk the walk of your own self-interest, and you talk the talk of a politics fan, taking your cues from politicians, who are almost always the least informed and last to know what they're talking about.
    Glad to see you agree that Al Gore (a politician) doesn't know what he's talking about.

  12. #112
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    Thread was good.

    Then it got to the arguing and I went from happy to a little bit sad.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by c-record
    Then it got to the arguing and I went from happy to a little bit sad.
    There's this awesome feature built into MTBR - it's called the Ignore List.

    You click on someone's username, view their profile - then hit Add XXX to your Ignore List.

    Then you never have to see another word posted by them... unless someone quotes them later in the thread.

    I highly recommend it. I wish more media had this functionality.

  14. #114
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    back to the topic at hand...

    not an RV... but I realy dig the idea of a trailer... pop ups for the fuel economy... but is what I realy want to build is a teardrop trailer... it's a small step up from a tent... and can be pulled by just about anything depending on how you build it (and I would build it myself none of this buying it from someone else bit
    can build them with a mini bunk bed in them if you plan on it... just enough to be not sleeping in a tent...
    - Surly Disc trucker
    - '82 trek 560 roadie

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotBlack
    Sorry Prodigal. You walk the walk of your own self-interest...

    Perhaps we could all just do each other a favor and get back to what the thread was about in the first place?
    Here is what I believe to be true about internet forums; they are like vampires. They suck the life out of you. There is an entire generation growing up with the internet, cell phones, text messaging, twitter, facebook, my space. I use to think nintendo was what would cause the collapse of society. I wasn't even close. These yougsters can spend hours typing messages into their cell phones. They can get into fights at school over something posted on facebook. They can have relationships with strangers they no nothing about. They can pretend to be someone they are not.

    Glance down the classic forums until you get to the one titled Political-Socio-Economic-Religion. Over 382,000 posts and yet it was closed down quite a while ago. The F88ers were addicts for debate, or something like a debate only involving as many insults as possible. They still are addicts. They have a new site where they actually passed the hat to cover expenses in the several thousands of dollars to run it. So they are paying out of pocket to insult each other. I mention this because internet forums have created a type of person who thrives on spending all sorts of time pouring through threads looking for a chance to show off their erudition. And the beauty is they can remain anonymous. They can embellish evey story they tell. Your Missy Giove posts stood out as an example. You want to make a case for how wonderful pot smoking is and how brilliant people can use it daily with no ill effect, so you tell stories about your girlfriend smoking pot and people at parties who are highly successful and smoke pot. I guess we'll have to take you on your word, even though my experience is the opposite. Pot smokers I have known function at about 50% of their potential. I don't disagree that there are some who function at 80%. To them, that is good enough to get by on. Hopefully they are not airline pilots. But my argument will always be that nobody functions at 100% when stoned, and they are missing out by anesthetizing themselves.

    What I want to point out, moreso than try to debate the validity of owning an RV, which I do, is that those people who use to be on MTBR forums (political-socio-economic-religion), got tossed out of here by Francis and Gregg. They were an embarrassment. They were cruel for the sake of being cruel. They kept saying they were actually nice people in real life but enjoyed getting away with saying whatever they wanted on these forums because they could. They were among the most intelligent people on all of MTBR, but it became more important to them to violate the rules and to win an argument at all cost, then to stay apart of the MTBR forums. Some of them had posted over 10,000 times. One guy had over 20,000 posts. He is now well over 30,000 posts. This vampire can suck people in, to the point where they are skipping rides so they can post messages telling others how to live their lives, even if they know nobody will ever change their behavior because of anything they say. You, for example, have no interest in RV's. You are not here to be convinced of their usefulness. You are here to provide backup to Tunica and to echo his thoughts and observations. When you jumped into the Giove thread, you wanted to make sure you let everyone know that if they were anti-pot smoking, they were ignorant, feared the unknown, and had much faith in authoritarianism. In doing so, you wanted them all to know you were much more enlightened by your life experiences, or the experiences you claimed to have had. Not you particularly, but people exactly like you are becoming commonplace on internet forums. People needing to be validated and willing to use precious time to share their political views.

    We all have prioroties. I really need to be outside on my bike 2-3 days a week and to be out running on trails 2-3 days a week. After that is accomplished, I can kick back and watch history channel or play chess or read rv forums or read mtbr forums. I can't justify skipping workouts to debate with strangers who have opinions or habits I don't agree with or respect. Those are my last words on the topic in this thread.

  16. #116
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    I was once tempted by the thought of a sleek space-age, self-contained, handmade, polished aluminum airstream, which would presumably require one less massively wasteful building to be erected upon the land, less defacement of said land, less overall pollution, is even primarily recyclable, enjoy a much greater life-cycle, a more minimalist experience (for whom less is more), and finally realize the untethered, noncommittal, nonconformist, nomadic wandering nature of my ancestors, which is so deeply engrained in my own instinct. The notion of having ones own roaming space station is hugely appealing. The challenge would be to see how possible it would be to do fuel-efficiently, as I'll admit I'm no fan of calling middle-east despots our masters.

    My recent experience in an RV park was clearly not what I had in mind.

    I'd be very interested to see an example of truly independent RV living.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    Here is what I believe to be true about internet forums;
    Wow that's a lot of words, and by the looks of it, not about RV's. Get a friend, Prodigy. You'll like em. They're fun.
    Last edited by HotBlack; 07-23-2009 at 05:13 PM.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotBlack

    Get a friend, Prodigy. You'll like em. They're fun.
    I'm sure you have lots of fun with the ones on the ends of your arms.

  18. #118
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    to keeping this thread alive???

    Thought I'd put all the rv's I've had sence the first one I posted:

    Had this one for about a year:


    Have this one now:

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    http://www.greenlearning.ca/climate/...ns/lifestyle/4

    OK, everyone in this thread, have a seat in your captain's chair while I share something with you:

    Taking an entire friggin' house with you on the road when you travel is neither the best way to get close to nature, nor the best way to show respect for it. It's just plain wasteful. Not to mention, it's nowhere near as nice or affordable as a resort hotel or a bed and breakfast. Why, why, why?... It's just an illusion of independance. To everyone not travelling in your RV, you look like a family hooked on life support.
    Go f yourself

  20. #120
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    How was the Westfalia on maintenance?

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    Even your thread is wasteful, big old pictures of your King Crew Cab Extended Custom Superline Roadmaster pieces of crap. Name me one other country where RVs sell in a profitable volume other than the United States.

    And yeehaw for that. Because it's God's green earth, given to us by Him to F*ck up.
    Dude, I was watchin the "tour" and thoes frenchies had them parked along side the trail on every climb. Looked like nice rigs too!

  22. #122
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    I raise bunnies to wipe my butt with and I am vegetarian, that makes me super earth friendly!!!! If you use TP you are a bad person!

  23. #123
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    weird, I'm reading this thread in my inlaws' van where tomorrow, me and my wife are off for a great bike trip to Whitefish and Sun Valley before we head slowly west to visit my parents in Ontario, Canada. First experience with an RV and am pretty excited.

    It's a 94 Eurovan CV from Canada...I think the last year they sold them up here.


  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by donalson
    back to the topic at hand...

    not an RV... but I realy dig the idea of a trailer... pop ups for the fuel economy... but is what I realy want to build is a teardrop trailer... it's a small step up from a tent... and can be pulled by just about anything depending on how you build it (and I would build it myself none of this buying it from someone else bit
    can build them with a mini bunk bed in them if you plan on it... just enough to be not sleeping in a tent...

    i'm with you on that, i really want to build one of those.

  25. #125
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    haha, this is the second thread I've read on here today where someone tries to share in the joy they are having and it turns ugly. The other thread was taking dogs on trails, which turned into others needing to voice their disgust and the argument took shape. I'm on several forums for motorcycles, jeeps, etc. and have never seen this kind of hostility. I'd be afraid to post any kind of opinion on here.
    Oh, and I like the RV that started this thread. Those little things look like the ticket!!!

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    Even your thread is wasteful, big old pictures of your King Crew Cab Extended Custom Superline Roadmaster pieces of crap. Name me one other country where RVs sell in a profitable volume other than the United States.

    And yeehaw for that. Because it's God's green earth, given to us by Him to F*ck up.
    Way to go with totally derailing a good thread. You are your company's single worst marketing tool. Why don't you keep quite?
    I thought of that while riding my bicycle. ~ Albert Einstein on the theory of relativity

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    Name me one other country where RVs sell in a profitable volume other than the United States.

    ireland, the uk, germany, new zealand, australia, south africa....

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    None of that frees you from your own personal responsibility for 8 miles to the gallon and a huge hunk of sheet metal. I didn't send you where you were, or make you drive all over creation with an apartment in your truck.

    I like the South but that's just me, I like the lush subtropics, full of life. Criticizing where I live doesn't have anything to do with the subject at hand, though does it, just another avoidance tactic?

    Rather than continually pursuing more money, putting off a real life, why not choose to do what you really want to do, within a budget, near to your family? Doesn't sound like "pimpin your life" to me, it sounds like you're compromising yourself. Which comes back to my central point: RV owners don't do it better, they just rumble around on life support, literally taking the kitchen sink with them, rather than taking a chance and having a real adventure.

    In the meantime, we all have to suffer under every day a greater strain of CO2 emissions while a grand illusion, "freedom of the road" becomes more and more clogged with traffic and smog. Only Americans think this way en masse, and you're embarrassing me.
    Nice rant douche. You should post a few more variations of this. I am sure you are going to change a lot of minds.
    Only two infinite things exist: the universe and stupidity. And, I am unsure of the universe
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  29. #129
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    Thanks for your comments, HotBlack. My goal on this thread was absolutely to provide some kind of retort to post after post of people unabashedly proud of what they're doing with their RVs, something I see as terrible to a tragicomic degree. The vitriolic attacks I'm getting, with folks like Prodigal Son doing their best to research my personal life, but most others just lazily saying "go f yourself," are still both just attempts to distract from the issue at hand, which is RV usage and how incredibly wasteful it is.

    I do use less resources than most of you all. There is an empirical measure of this. I could do better, but guess what, I don't have to be the Ghandi of environmentalism in order to hold my views, and neither do you all! All I'm asking is for others not to be so grossly, thoughtlessly wasteful.

    RV owners I gather could do much, much, much, much, much better.
    http://atlas.aaas.org/index.php?part=2

    Thankfully RV sales are in sharp decline, and like second hand smoke, I believe it's an issue that should continue to be chased "out of the building" like the once all-powerful tobacco lobby:
    http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008...l-grade-ahead/
    http://www.rvbusiness.com/2009/06/st...bles-down-395/

    You can be certain (absolutely) that I would be living off the grid if I could afford it. Last year I talked with three contractors about it. Again, like I've said, many green strategies have their own rewards; in the long run it would save me money. I've researched hydroelectric and solar dishes too; I have a plan, I'm not going to throw up my hands because these problems seem too complex and demanding right now.

    Hey, look at Jay Leno, a man who loves his classic automobiles. He has an ancient electric car, and a new Tesla roadster. He understands the entire history of motor vehicles. His massive garage is also completely off the grid, he even sells back power to the electric company. All I have to say is, wow. If all people, of means or poor, indulged their fantasies in the intelligent, considered fashion that Mr. Leno does, we wouldn't have a problem.




    Quote Originally Posted by HotBlack
    I like that for once, I'm not the most fired up passionite in the thread. It's like watching a solo break near the finish of a mountain stage. Will he be able to keep it up, or be reclaimed by the chase? Get spit out the back and swarmed by the peloton? Still off the front, no signs of relenting... Nice work, Tunica. And I do find myself agreeing with your priciples. After my limited experience, it really looked like stereotypical self-serving American consumerist excess run amok. But my experience is limited.

    Self-serving justifications of entitlement I won't even touch on, as no good ever comes of that conversation, but I like to think there are some redeeming qualities to RVing, even if we haven't come across them yet.

    I understand that as campers, it is hard not to look down upon people who seem so dependent on modern convenience and their manmade environment that even when they set out to leave home, they still have to buy and drag another ton of it in portable form with them just to survive a weekend away. This makes the camper wonder why the RVer bothered leaving home at all, if they were just going to take home with them. This seems to be the root of the Camping/RVing rift. For instance, a camper might look at Bigfoots first picture in this thread and say, well, that little egg thing is cute, but it's not much bigger than a lot of tents. Why not just use a tent and save yourself the gas, maintenance, & time? Plus, you can put a tent anywhere you want, & it uses a lot less resources over its lifespan.

    I've struggled to find a counter-viewpoint for the RV'ers side, but that is probably because I'm not one. Some possible candidates are:

    1. Selling house to live as a wandering nomad, closer to nature but not at its mercy.
    2. You may not have the faculties to survive living a full-on wilderness lifestyle, but want to come as close as your physical abilities will let you.
    3. You're completely freaked out by nature, but you want your kids to grow up well-adjusted and balanced, and it's a compromise. A generation of kids half-way exposed to nature is better than a generation of kids who've never been exposed to the natural world at all. When city kids grow and become powerful, we get environmental policies that favor concrete and steel.
    4. The faster we use up petroleum reserves, the sooner we'll have to get on to alternative fuels. Since society won't change until its forced to, they're really doing us all a favor. ...even if it pollutes like crazy and does its part to keep us ensnared in deadly middle-east politics. If it doesn't kill us first, we'll be better off eventually. Ok, I'm reaching here.

    But I'm trying anyway.
    Last edited by TunicaTrails; 07-27-2009 at 08:43 AM.

  30. #130
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    if you need a $60,000 - 100,000 solar system to satisfy your daily(+reserve) electrical consumption, then you probably aren't using less resources than most of us. there're a hell of alot of people living off the grid with a significantly smaller TOTAL initial investment than that.

  31. #131
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    I doubt that. In 2007, the average monthly residential electricity consumption was 936 kilowatthours (kWh).
    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/electricity_faqs.asp

    I couldn't fathom using that much electricity and we have all-electric utilities in anticipation of going off-grid. Nonetheless I wasn't taken aback by the price either, plus solar systems are modular. I'm into a small Chinese system for $300 already that charges a few batteries.


    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach
    if you need a $60,000 - 100,000 solar system to satisfy your daily(+reserve) electrical consumption, then you probably aren't using less resources than most of us. there're a hell of alot of people living off the grid with a significantly smaller TOTAL initial investment than that.

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    I doubt that as well, especially since the USA is the prime manufacturer of RVs. Please cite your source. Here's one I've been reading:

    http://www.rv-n-motorhomes.com/RV-Facts-Statistics.html


    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach
    ireland, the uk, germany, new zealand, australia, south africa....

  33. #133
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    looks like those numbers are drastically skewed by the (entire excluding cali) south, where i'm guessing a significant number of people use and often need air conditioning throughout the summer. i know you live there as well.


    i'm surprised maine is lower than california.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    I doubt that as well, especially since the USA is the prime manufacturer of RVs. Please cite your source. Here's one I've been reading:

    http://www.rv-n-motorhomes.com/RV-Facts-Statistics.html

    personal travel through some of those countries. there are companies in all of them that sell rv's/campers, and have been in business for a long time. ie: profitable.

  35. #135
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    http://www.motorhomesworldwide.com/m...me/index.shtml

    have a look. plenty of profitable motorhome companies all over the world. your link appears to have nearly all american-centric info.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    Hey, look at Jay Leno, a man who loves his classic automobiles. He has an ancient electric car, and a new Tesla roadster. He understands the entire history of motor vehicles. His massive garage is also completely off the grid, he even sells back power to the electric company. All I have to say is, wow. If all people, of means or poor, indulged their fantasies in the intelligent, considered fashion that Mr. Leno does, we wouldn't have a problem.
    Yes, and we all know how few resources the Tonight Show utilizes.

    You continue to elevate yourself above others, including some of us who have worked on environmental issues as a profession for some time now. I've lost a lot of hide arguing with some pretty large environmental polluters and their attorneys over the years holding their feet to the fire, to resolve issues that affect a lot of people. It's easy to get burned out. And them some young twit like you comes along and holds his nose in the air in disdain over my little pop-up camper that I take out a handful of times a year and bumps my fuel efficiency down 5mpg. Pathetic. I bet those bikers coming to the races shown on your website are pedaling to get there, right? I bet none of them stay in RVs either.

    The point is, you are as guilty as many on this thread. Yet you place yourself on a higher plateau for some reason. Luxury hotels that you pontificate about are a joke as far as the resources utilized. "Keep that A/C going honey, so the room will be cool when we return from our fancy dinner we didn't prepare ourselves. Oh, that imported crab and bottled water was spectacular." Here's a good one: https://www.hcn.org/issues/145/4691

    Working on, and caring about, environmental resources is a good thing. But when you begin to denigrate others who have spent many, many hours fighting for environmental issues, you are crapping in your own yard. We are all guilty in one way or another and could do better. You, however, are shotgunning everyone on this forum, while you are just as guilty as some of those in your sights. Way to go.

  37. #137
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    The teardrop trailer idea is interested me before. I don't mind sleeping in a tent. What I do mind is all of the packing and unpacking that comes with tent camping. With an RV or even a teardrop you can keep the packing to a minimum. I would like to have some kind of small/simple RV for riding and attending antique equipment shows.
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  38. #138
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    Well, now at least we are getting into specifics about someone besides me. Maybe you should take a step back and see that I have no argument with you now that you've taken the time to explain yourself a little better. I'm not as inclined to cyber-stalk

    I will admit, if it wasn't clear, that there's a big difference between a pop-up camper and a $300,000 motorhome. Take note that my analogies were made in reference to the larger models, which are exhorbitantly expensive and wasteful, and so I made the comparison with luxury hotels. Me, I'm just fine with Motel 6. You need to understand that I'm not attacking affluence in this thread, I'm attacking relative wastefulness.

    Me, I slept in a tent on the ground at a National Park this weekend, rode hard before and after. The hatchback took everything I needed and more to feel comfortable.

    As for the trails I work on, they are intended to be a much-closer solution for Louisiana residents to have hilly mountain biking trails. Better a 45 minute drive than 2-5 hours, no? I'm not aware of anyone camping in RVs, just tents and motels at the races I've been to.

    I'm not that young anymore. I don't mind hearing ideas or criticisms on how I could be doing better. If you're interrogating me on why I don't have a house made this or that way, well that's at least a catalyst to advance ideas to a group of people largely not having considered them, so that's fine.

    In the area of the country I live it is very hot, no doubt. This summer we use one of our two A/C units 75% of the day to maintain a 77-81 degree temperature throughout the house with ample ceiling fans and blown-in insulation, which is highly superior to rolls.

    We used zero utilities for heating our home last year. A wood burning stove can be a very efficient way of heating. My new neighbor's is being installed with a catalytic converter. I tend to run the small Yotul stove at high flow whenever possible. This visibly reduces the smoke from the flue, essentially just releasing hot air and doing the job of a catlyst. More importantly, I have a 3-years supply of oak firewood from all the fallen trees after Hurricane Gustav in 2008. I hated to see them gone, but there's no use in them going to waste, so I was quite busy last Fall splitting wood.

    Do away with the perjorative hot button words and share more about what your work. Here's a bemusing problem a little closer to my home (the "diabolical" nutria were brought here by men):
    http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/51709307.html


    Quote Originally Posted by BumpityBump
    Yes, and we all know how few resources the Tonight Show utilizes.

    You continue to elevate yourself above others, including some of us who have worked on environmental issues as a profession for some time now. I've lost a lot of hide arguing with some pretty large environmental polluters and their attorneys over the years holding their feet to the fire, to resolve issues that affect a lot of people. It's easy to get burned out. And them some young twit like you comes along and holds his nose in the air in disdain over my little pop-up camper that I take out a handful of times a year and bumps my fuel efficiency down 5mpg. Pathetic. I bet those bikers coming to the races shown on your website are pedaling to get there, right? I bet none of them stay in RVs either.

    The point is, you are as guilty as many on this thread. Yet you place yourself on a higher plateau for some reason. Luxury hotels that you pontificate about are a joke as far as the resources utilized. "Keep that A/C going honey, so the room will be cool when we return from our fancy dinner we didn't prepare ourselves. Oh, that imported crab and bottled water was spectacular." Here's a good one: https://www.hcn.org/issues/145/4691

    Working on, and caring about, environmental resources is a good thing. But when you begin to denigrate others who have spent many, many hours fighting for environmental issues, you are crapping in your own yard. We are all guilty in one way or another and could do better. You, however, are shotgunning everyone on this forum, while you are just as guilty as some of those in your sights. Way to go.
    Last edited by TunicaTrails; 07-27-2009 at 10:56 AM.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by porkchop
    The teardrop trailer idea is interested me before. I don't mind sleeping in a tent. What I do mind is all of the packing and unpacking that comes with tent camping. With an RV or even a teardrop you can keep the packing to a minimum. I would like to have some kind of small/simple RV for riding and attending antique equipment shows.
    ya thats the big thing for the teardrop... no setup and tear down for sleeping... also have seen people who've integrated a small a/c system into it that could be removed for cooler months (nice thought when you live in FL) also they are much better insulated then a tent which is nice for the winter... would be a sweet way to travel cross country... stop off at a rest area and hop in the back for a nap (wouldn't even consider that with a tent haha)... pop open the galley to prep lunch and get back on your way... it's easy to see why they where HUGELY popular back in the early 20th century...
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  40. #140
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    tunica, based on this site: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricit....html#kilowatt
    your ac units that you run 75% of the day in summer burn up to about 540 kWh per month, on their own. i'm having trouble believing that you use significantly less than the national average once you factor in your ample cieling fans and other appliances....

    it's certainly justifiable to use ac in your neck of the woods, but your state and the surrounding states(tn, al, ky) have an energy consumption drastically higher than the rest of the country, based on the chart you provided a link to. maybe berating the mtb/rv community isn't the first place you should be directing your rants. maybe you would be better off trying to make changes closer to home.

  41. #141
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    I'm not seeing any numbers so far to justify an assertion that their are more RVs in other countries than the USA (sold, average, per captia, what have you). This is not necessarily an important point to debate, other than the fact it underscores a conspicuous consumption lifestyle primed by my country.

    That I use a fraction of the average, be that average in fact skewed by warmer states as you assert, wouldn't it stand to underscore, rather than detract from, my assertion that I use fewer resources? Because according to my electric bill, I used 590kwh last month, in one of the hottest months of the year. My wife got on me about it, too, we used less last year. Month before that was 490.

    Also, I'd imagine that our Winter heating bills are a lot lower than cooler states, so I'd question the average skew that you assert.

    As I've said before, this is not about me, not because I'm superior, but because I'm disqualified, I don't have an RV or any other large, lumbering vehicle that I'd ironically tie to my sense of freedom, pun intended. As usual, we're trying to meander from the beaten path of RV largesse, aren't we?



    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach
    looks like those numbers are drastically skewed by the (entire excluding cali) south, where i'm guessing a significant number of people use and often need air conditioning throughout the summer. i know you live there as well.


    i'm surprised maine is lower than california.

  42. #142
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    See my immediately previous post relevant to this above. Let's hear more about you, I'm tiring of questions from the unaccountable.

    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach
    tunica, based on this site: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricit....html#kilowatt
    your ac units that you run 75% of the day in summer burn up to about 540 kWh per month, on their own. i'm having trouble believing that you use significantly less than the national average once you factor in your ample cieling fans and other appliances....

    it's certainly justifiable to use ac in your neck of the woods, but your state and the surrounding states(tn, al, ky) have an energy consumption drastically higher than the rest of the country, based on the chart you provided a link to. maybe berating the mtb/rv community isn't the first place you should be directing your rants. maybe you would be better off trying to make changes closer to home.

  43. #143
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    i never said that other countries have more RV's than us. that would be absurd. we have more wealth and a higher population.

    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    Even your thread is wasteful, big old pictures of your King Crew Cab Extended Custom Superline Roadmaster pieces of crap. Name me one other country where RVs sell in a profitable volume other than the United States.

    And yeehaw for that. Because it's God's green earth, given to us by Him to F*ck up.
    about my energy consumption:

    i rent while i'm saving up for a cabin which will most likely be off the grid. i wont need ac, i wont need lights in the summer, i consume very few foods that require refrigeration, heating a cabin up here can easilly be accomplished with a wood burning stove. the house i'm in currently uses natural gas. i drive a beat up old pickup with 203,000 miles on it, which only get's about 20 mpg, but isn't consuming the amount of resources that producing a new car would. there are ton's of bike paths here and i use them for the majority of my errands withing twenty miles. i have no idea what my energy consumption is. i'm assuming it's fairly low though. my computer is a laptop, and i use an mp3 player instead of a stereo.

    i don't own an rv, but would like to build my own teardrop trailer at some point.

  44. #144
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    There is no free lunch. Do what you can for the environment, we all should be good stewards of the earth. However be careful to preach that your view is the only one, especially about subjects such as the environmental friendliness of the route you have chosen. Subjects like this are incredibly multifaceted and often the real world implementation of different systems have impacts that are not understood until after they are in place. In the Southeast we use predominately hydroelectric power. Relatively clean stuff. Many would argue much cleaner than coal or nuclear, but there are hundreds of other aspects on hydro electric alone that impact the environment. The ecosystyems were changed by the formation of the lakes. People built vacation homes on the lakes (as planned). They travel a few hours to go to these homes on the weekends. They drive boats and jet skis there. Golf courses are built near these lakes. Etc, etc etc. Often the big picture is far more complex than the small one. The chinese solar panels that Tunica bought to reduce his local energy consumption, came at what cost to the environment where they were manufactured and what resources were consumed to ship them to him? All that aside, another neat small camper is the TAB http://www.tab-rv.com/. Saw one a few years ago at beach. Kind of a modern teardrop.

  45. #145
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    The answer to the pollution cost of solar cell production in China or anywhere: very little
    http://www.chem.uu.nl/nws/www/research/e&e/e&e_rena.htm
    Its cost could be exacerbated of course if the cells are not durable. So far, so good, and we're not talking about a massive amount of material regardless.

    RV's or other vehicles on the other hand should be used as long as possible I agree, even if they're less energy efficient than a new car. Housing, I don't know. My mother lives in a 1930s-era house with poor insulation. Very little new material has been expended to keep the house standing but it certainly leaks energy vs new energy-efficient construction.

    I prefer grid-tied solar systems. I use my small starter solar system just to power battery chargers for AA rechargable batteries and so on. The ideal with a large grid-tied system would be to generate more electricity than you use overall and sell it back to the power company during the day, not for the small change it'd earn of course, but being your own zero-emissions power company. Show me an RV covered with solar panels and I'll be duly impressed.

    I would counter that it's easier to question the source of criticism than it is to more accurately judge what we all know is going on. When we dissolve into relativism, there's a danger of shrugging the whole sustainability thing off with "it's quite too complicated." I'm not going to do that. Kudos to guys like sean salach who also have details of a plan to improve their own environmental impact (and quality of life). That's how you get it done.




    Quote Originally Posted by chiplikestoridehisbike
    There is no free lunch. Do what you can for the environment, we all should be good stewards of the earth. However be careful to preach that your view is the only one, especially about subjects such as the environmental friendliness of the route you have chosen. Subjects like this are incredibly multifaceted and often the real world implementation of different systems have impacts that are not understood until after they are in place. In the Southeast we use predominately hydroelectric power. Relatively clean stuff. Many would argue much cleaner than coal or nuclear, but there are hundreds of other aspects on hydro electric alone that impact the environment. The ecosystyems were changed by the formation of the lakes. People built vacation homes on the lakes (as planned). They travel a few hours to go to these homes on the weekends. They drive boats and jet skis there. Golf courses are built near these lakes. Etc, etc etc. Often the big picture is far more complex than the small one. The chinese solar panels that Tunica bought to reduce his local energy consumption, came at what cost to the environment where they were manufactured and what resources were consumed to ship them to him? All that aside, another neat small camper is the TAB http://www.tab-rv.com/. Saw one a few years ago at beach. Kind of a modern teardrop.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    .....
    Also, I'd imagine that our Winter heating bills are a lot lower than cooler states, so I'd question the average skew that you assert.
    .......

    because beating dead horses is much more humane than beating live ones:

    this chart has a pretty good view of overall carbon footprint, not just public utility electricity consumption. northern states still seem to consume significantly less wasteful energy, overall and per capita, than southern ones. says nothing bad about peoples choices, just means cool to cold climates are easier to live in than hot/humid ones.

    http://www.eredux.com/states/


  47. #147
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    err, maybe that's backwards. that chart isn't very clear on what the data means...


    edit: here we go, this is the chart we want.

    http://www.eredux.com/states/index.p...995u3b9v8lhqg4

  48. #148
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    yee-haw!


    Honestly... ahh I give up

  49. #149
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    That picture is bursting with a very big faux pas

    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    yee-haw!







    Bar ends on a riser bar!?!? Oh my......

  50. #150
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    Here is our 30ft Springdale and I really don't give a crap if anyone on this forum doesn't like the fact that I own it! We have had a lot of fun camping in this and I wouldn't trade those memories with my family for anything.

    The porch:


    The living room:


    My little riding buddy getting ready to shred some singletrack:


    Towing with a 2008 Toyota Tundra 4x4 TRD limited:

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